Is God's Love Conditional?

[abbey]

Ive been thru the wringer spiritually. As we all have. Ive been thru the wringer in life cirumstances, which is alot of my own fault too, but...*big SIGH*...how to word this?

From my experience and the little Bible-reading Ive done, it feels like God only loves us conditionally. If we DO the right things,He will help us and be pleased. We are called to DENY ourself which feels to me like stripping away my own uniqueness. We are to SERVE in some manner, heck, i cant even get to the store somedays because of my wonderful bi-polar. I feel totally inept to be a "TRUE" Christian. I hear that a lot...."TRUE CHRISTIAN" That is triggering to me. Because I believe in and accept Christ's work, I felt i was a true Christian but now it appears that God requires more. Lay down your life and follow the Lord. I heard that alot in my cult. Yet, if staying in my cult was "laying down my life and following Jesus" that cross was too big to bear. If His yoke is easy and His burden light, then how could being locked in a Christian cult, told im filled with demons and that my family is idolatry, easy or light?

I have two bad habits. But any Christian will say they are SIN. And I guess they are. If I cant terminate these two sins, I feel God will not love or care about me. This doesnt just come from the cult but from the Bible! Like for example. The israelites were grumbling one day about quail or something and God got mad and killed 1000's of them. LOL....I mean, who is this God?

You'll have to forgive me for my lack of Bible knowledge, but heck, I cant read it since the cult.

I guess I was born-again into the LOVE gospel and I didnt hear or read much more about God. I assumed He was a big loving santa in the sky. But he sent floods, and fire and sulfar down. I cant imagine ALL the people being so evil that God required such a severe punishment. SO I fear for my own self. If im not perfect, im doomed.

Im ramblin here, but you guys got good minds....i think you see what im getting at. Who is God? Is He good, bad, fair, just? Too many things went down in the Bible that scare the heck outta me. I want the simplicity of the work on the cross---but it all seems so complex. I want to serve and love God, but i feel really weird around fanatical people. When I run into them, i wanna run the other way....

ok, ok, quit ramblin....hit send and hope for the best....

[Jerry]

Dear Abby,,,
What a wonderful daughter God has in you......Is Gods love conditional???
A resounding YES !!!!!! There are 2 ways to meet the conditions....The first way is to meet all requirements as set out in the Old Testament,,,,in short,live a life of perfection :eek: In Gods wisdom,,,,He understood that we humans would consistently fall short of that goal,,,,so He provided an alternate route,,,,,,found in John 3 vs. 16,,,,,,,,,,"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,,,,that who-so-ever should believe on Him,should NOT perish ,,, but have "Everlasting" life...." Sweetie,,,,either way will work,but the first way has very little if any chance of success ;)
Love Jerry

P.S. You are forgiven up to 70x7 each day,,,worry not sweet Abby ;)

[abbey]

Aw, Jerry, I always love your answers! Short and sweet, yet filled with wisdom!

See, the guy in my cult was in such FEAR of God that he wouldnt even eat sugar! They wouldnt do caffinee, any medicines and etc. This fanatical response to God screwed me up. If heavens door closes on a coffee addicts, then abbeys going to Hell! LOL:D

I hope your right Jerry, because Im struggling with what I call "pleasure sin" right now. Ya, know---the sins that feel good. My prayer life stinks! I cant read the word! I can go to church, but I had to move to another side of town and now the new church I went to made me supisious(sp) again. Im terrified of FANATICS!

I have trouble on Christian forums too! Like, I told my cult story all over the net. The most common response? "READ YOUR BIBLE" UGH......

I want to read it, i really, really do. But it drives me to anxieties and tears because of the twisted way it was used against me. The unabused dont get me. *SIGH*

Thank God for this place!!!

Thx my dear new friend.

[Jerry]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT :D

Pleasure Sin,,,,,,,If pleasure is a sin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and we are made in Gods Image,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then "God" is sinful :eek: ,,,,,,Hahaha kinda flies in the face of common sense doesn't it ;)
Love Jerry

[mary]

Abbey, you had unwittingly hooked up with a bunch of nuts who belong in rubber rooms. Nothing they told you was valid or Biblical or "of the Lord" or smacked of anything that He wants you to know about Him or His relationship with/to you. Period.

Is God's love conditional? Only as far as the application to us of the perfect atonement of His only begotten Son and our inclusion in His family is concerned. Do I believe (personally) that God loves everyone in the world? Did God love Hitler or Saddam Hussein and are they with Him now? I, for one, don't believe so. He reserves the right to have mercy on whom He will (Romans 9). I know: God "so loved the world..." - the Gospel is preached far and wide, but some of it doesn't take root in some people. Some will never know the sweetness of becoming a new creation in Christ. God saves those whom He draws and none of those will be lost (John 6, 17, etc.). How can we know? We produce the fruit of the Spirit (Matthew 7:15-20, etc.). You are drawn to Him, Abbey; keep drawing near to Him and He'll draw near to you. He's promised that and does He ever break His promises? NO!!!!

I understand how Scripture can be used to hurt and damage and twist and repel people. It was done to me in my old church. But -- we can't get along without God's Word... Satan tried to use God's Word to hurt Jesus in the desert, but He didn't let him... He said, instead, "It is written..." and used Scripture to fight Satan. We are to do as our Master showed us, for what better Teacher was there ever than Jesus Christ?

Ephesians 6, Abbey... Put on the "helmet of salvation..."

If you're His, you're His for good. We have liberty in Christ.. "Let no man judge you with regard to meat..." (Colossians 2:16). Anyone who says otherwise is in disagreement with God's Word and is to be avoided and disregarded.

I'm preaching to myself, I know... That's what this forum is for, to offer bootstraps to each other by which we can pull each other up. And people do that for me every time they post.

Praying for you, Abbey, in our Lord Jesus Christ, my sister in Him --

mary

[Carmen]

It seems the cult only taught part of the gospel. God is like a mother hen, that will do anything to protect her chicks - not other's chicks. She will protect her chicks under her wings, but anyone that tries to get them will get pecked on, stomped on....
(Ruth 2:12, Ps. 17:8, Ps. 36:7, Ps. 57:1, Ps. 61:4, Ps. 63:7, Ps. 91:4, Mt. 23:37, Lk. 13:34)

Whoever is born a chick of that mother hen will always be her chick, the conditionality comes in when the mother hen expects obedience from her chicks and expects that they learn how to be grown chickens. Even if they don't always obey and learn, they will still be her chicks, she will love them although she might be disappointed in them, they will be missing out on the benefits of knowing how to be a grown chicken.

[abbey]

Thank You Mary and Carmen. You guys are helping me get a greater understanding of Gods nature. I still feel that this sin in my life needs to be addressed. I dont want to displease god or give the devil anymore room in my life. God has done so many GOOD things for me, that I owe Him at least an attempt at turning from these certain sins. I get tripped up where Paul speaks of us striving for perfection. "To be perfect"---Wowser!

I have felt Gods presence two times and it was an undescribable LOVE! Not a self-induced euphoria, but tremendous power, joy, peace and love. Which did surpass all understanding. It was deep and wide like nothing else.

The cult lives for God thru fear. Fear of eternal damnation, earthly calamity etc. They tryed to get me in the same mind-set, but I was blessed with the two experiences with the HS! There was no talk of Love---just obedience to some madman, who plays games with His creation.

But I still dont understand stuff like, The flood. Sort of like God said," Man, I made these creatures and they are just behaving like humans do, so Im just gonna destroy them." But then I remember that He is Holy.

Its rough trying to figure this all out. But im trying! Thank Jesus for you guys, who else understands?

[SJPEERYVA85]

[quote=abbey;46507] I still feel that this sin in my life needs to be addressed. "

I understand your struggle with this question Abbey! I have thought about this a lot in the past. I guess what gave me a final peace about Jesus paying for ALL of my sin is this. I hope that I can explain it.

The things I saw as sin in my life 23 years ago, (adultry, fits of rage, abusing my children, hatred for my parents) were indeed sins!! No doubt about it and GOd has been gracious to give me a level of victory over those particular sins. But what about the sins I deal with now?

23 years ago, I had no idea that these were even sins. Not praying enough, fear, doubt, gluttony the list goes on... I pray that God will give me victory over these things as well, but won't there be more after that?? Things that I am not aware that I am even doing? or good things that I am not doing?? Sin is all pervasive and we will always struggle with our sinful nature.

What gives me hope is that I care deeply about these things. They make me greive. One of my favorite things about heaven will be, no more sin! I will finally be like Jesus, perfect, and Iwill no longer make my Father unhappy!

I see that you care about this deeply as well. This is proof to me that we are on the right track. If we were still lost, we wouldn't care if we sinned or not.

The point that I am trying to make is, when we believed on Jesus, He took us up and washed us clean from the punishment of All our sins, everyone of them!!! He is patient and knows that we still struggle with our sinful natures in the midst of a sin filled world. Ps says He remembers that we are but dust.

[Elisabeth]

I can really understand God's word being turned to the point where it's hard to see beyond the deceit. I'm still trying to see beyond it, and I too have "churchy" words and expressions which are "triggers." One thing I am learning, though, is God wants us to be ourselves and He changes us from the inside out. I have a hard time reading my Bible, and I have realized that if I just read over and over again some scriptures that do not "trigger" anything, then I can start reading more, and more. One scripture I sort of "started" on was John 1:12, "But as many as received Him, (Jesus) to them he gave the right to be children of God." So remember, no matter what you've done, no matter what has been shoved at you, you are a child of God.

Today I stumbled across I "Bible Study guide" to be used to get through the Bible in one year. I used to feel guilty because I could not read the Bible like that, could not read the Bible daily, but no more guilt for that. God wants us to go through healing at our own pace.

[Ladybug]

Abbey,

God's love is UNCONDITIONAL I Corinthians 13. This is known as the "love" chapter. As you read, you can do it this way:

1. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity--(love) You can insert Jesus.

1. "Though I speak with tongues of men and of angels and have Jesus...
2....and not have Jesus, I am nothing.
3. ...have not Jesus....
4. Jesus suffereth long and is kind, Jesus envies not...
7. Jesus bearer all things,Jesus believes all things, He endures all things
8. Jesus never fails...
13. And now abides hope, faith, love (charity)...but the greatest of all is JESUS!

Here's how the Message Bible translates 1 Corinthians 13:

If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. 2If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. 3-7If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

Love never gives up. (Jesus never gives up.)
Love cares more for others than for self. (Jesus cares more.."
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have. (Jesus doesn't want)
Love doesn't strut, (Jesus doesn't strut)
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best, (Jesus always looks for the best)
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.
8-10Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.

11When I was an infant at my mother's breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good.

12We don't yet see things clearly. We're squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won't be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We'll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!

13 But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love. "

Let me suggest that you find a Bible that you can understand. The Message Bible is easy to understand. You can go to www.Biblegate.com and they have a lot of translations of the Bible. You may want to see what works best for you before you go and buy one. You may want to go to www.amazon.com and check their prices on Bibles.

Don't worry about the things you don't understand. Put into practice the things you do understand. Like prayer and Bible reading. As you grow, the Lord will increase your understanding. Sometimes Satan likes to distract us with hard questions, so that we won't grow. Is this helping you?

As far as reading your Bible. You may only read one verse. That's fine. God may want to show you something in that one verse. As one of my teachers used to say, "Do we read our Bibles for the mileage or for the message?" Do I plow through in reading my Bible in a year? Or do I take my time to read and to understand the truths that God has for me?

I would suggest reading the Gospel of John. It gives you a good foundation about the life of Jesus. The book of Psalms is excellent in emotional healing and being able to express those emotions back to God. I read the book of Proverbs once a month.

Another thing I like to do is to keep a prayer and praise notebook. When I go to pray my mind wanders. I find by writing down the prayer request, I stay more focused. When the Lord answers, I put that down as a praise item. In keeping these notebooks, I can look back and see how much or how little I have grown spiritually. I can see how my prayer life has increased. It gives me encouragement in seeing how the Lord answers. This is a good resource to leave behind for others.

I hope and pray these "suggestions" are helpful to you. I've tried not to overwhelmed you. If you don't understand something, feel free to ask.

I'll be praying for you and asking the Lord to help you grow stronger in Him.

Blessings.

[hoipoloi]

Im terrified of FANATICS!

I have trouble on Christian forums too! Like, I told my cult story all over the net. The most common response? "READ YOUR BIBLE" UGH......

I want to read it, i really, really do. But it drives me to anxieties and tears because of the twisted way it was used against me. The unabused dont get me. *SIGH*

Thank God for this place!!!



Indeed, thank God for this place!

I'm well-known by my friends for wild generalisations.

Here's a wild generalisation -- (or maybe not):

"Spiritual Abuse.com forum is the ONLY true Christian forum on the internet!"

There! I've said it!
:)

[David]

Hi Abbey,

All I can do is quote my hero Rich:

There's a wideness in God's mercy
I cannot find in my own
And it keeps his fire burning
To melt this heart of stone
Keeps me aching with a yearning
keeps me glad to have been caught
In the reckless, raging fury
That they call the love of God .........

Joy and sorrow are this ocean
And in their every ebb and flow
Now the Lord a door has opened
That all hell could never close
Here I'm tested and made worthy
Tossed about, but lifted up
In the reckless, raging fury
That they call the love of God

[underthemercy]

[QUOTE=abbey;46494]Ive been thru the wringer spiritually. As we all have. Ive been thru the wringer in life cirumstances, which is alot of my own fault too, but...*big SIGH*...how to word this?

From my experience and the little Bible-reading Ive done, it feels like God only loves us conditionally. If we DO the right things,He will help us and be pleased. We are called to DENY ourself which feels to me like stripping away my own uniqueness. We are to SERVE in some manner, heck, i cant even get to the store somedays because of my wonderful bi-polar. I feel totally inept to be a "TRUE" Christian. I hear that a lot...."TRUE CHRISTIAN" That is triggering to me. Because I believe in and accept Christ's work, I felt i was a true Christian but now it appears that God requires more. Lay down your life and follow the Lord. I heard that alot in my cult. Yet, if staying in my cult was "laying down my life and following Jesus" that cross was too big to bear. If His yoke is easy and His burden light, then how could being locked in a Christian cult, told im filled with demons and that my family is idolatry, easy or light?

Dear Abbey! God's love is unconditional. That's what the book of Galatians is all about. The reason so many "churches" out there are turning cultish is they are powerless (Holy Spiritless or a famine of the Word) and the only power they can have is to control their community through guilt and rules, Judizers (?sp) that is what one person called the headman in the cultish movement I was enslaved to for over 15 years. I too was told that I was demonized. Talk about the teaching of powerlessness!!!!! I had to depend on pastor,counsellor/shamans who could raise the demons and make them leave, which they did not leave for 15 years. Because they were not there!!! I finally, by the grace of the living God began to trust the fact that the vacuum I felt between the teaching and my reality was my reality.

Since I had a lot of experience with exorcism, I was enlisted to help the pastor with other demonized. One day when he had no luck raising a demon manifestation, he asked me if I would allow the demons to come into me so that we could talk to them and get them out of the other person. Being well schooled in obeying my spiritual authority---I agreed.

One day I asked the pastor/spiritual authority (since it was the "way to follow Christ" being under authority) if I could go to another shaman/counsellor in the same business. My pastor said okay graciously, but secretly he was offended. I found this out after I went to the new shaman! When I told this new counsellor about the pastor asking me to let another person's demons come into me because I knew how to detect and let them manifest through me, this counsellor was horrified and said that the pastor had sinned a great sin by asking me to be a medium. He told me to go back to the pastor and tell him this and ask him to pray for me.(Talk about a fun assignment!!!) I got a one sentence prayer from the pastor and at that time I knew he had been offended by my wanting to go outside of his ministry for help and for a thousand other reasons was using me to boost his own spiritual ego.

Then the vacuum became clear questions? What is this teaching anyway? ( "Psychology is of the devil." "Don't give bad reports" which means if you have a problem with the teaching or teachers keep it to yourself. "Anger is a sin" "Wearing pants is a sin" "the ministry of the smile--always smile, don't show your true feelings because it draws others attention to yourself" YIKES) Oh, I could go on. But I was willing,( IAM BEGINNING TO SEE WHY I WAS SO WILLING TO GIVE UP MY MIND, SOUL, AND BODY TO THIS TEACHING) because I thought these were the tenets of drawing closer to the wonderful Lord who had saved me. He had saved me. The true reality was not the pharisee game I was playing with all the members, but Jesus Christ, the Living Son of God in me and drawing me to Himself. This church,seminar was another leaning tower of babel. God has never approved of the pride that humans can reach him on their own. It cannot be. How can we know the One who dwells in unapproachable light outside of time? It is wholly His initiative.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no man be justified." ....O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, received you the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 2:16 and 3:1-3

Justification means just as if I had never sinned. See what Romans 5 says---Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By Whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in the hope of the glory (manifestation) of God......

Once in---always in. Nothing can separate us from the love of God!!!!!!

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners (another place names us His enemies), Christ died for us. MUCH MORE THEN, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM."

The miracle is that faith in Christ is a gift. It is not a change we do in our minds, it is the fact that we heard Him knocking at the door of our hearts and opened the door to Him. We love Him, because He first loved us.

We will always struggle with sin because the sin nature has not been eradicated. The Christian life is a process of Grace. We grow from grace to grace. I John tells us "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins (to God), He is faithful and justs to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I think we struggle so with sins because we have no true spiritual leaders to teach us how to walk in the Spirit. Not that we will become spiritually perfect ever on this earth. Look at Romans 7 and you will find that even Paul knew our very personal struggle.

"To as many as received Him (Jesus Christ) to them He gave the power to become the children of God>" John---God is the perfect, loving Father. He will never reject His Children. We are a new humanity in Christ. We are guaranteed to be saved from the wrath to come and "Behold, I go to prepare a place for you, that where I Am, there you may be also."

"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, YET I WILL NOT FORGET YOU. BEHOLD I HAVE GRAVEN YOU UPON THE PALMES OF MY HANDS, THY WALLS ARE CONTINUALLY BEFORE ME." IS. 49:15

Do not love money, be content with such things as you have; for HE HATH SAID I WILL NEVER, NO NEVER, NOT EVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. Heb 13:5

Dear Fellow Sufferer, I have written this for both of us. Because I am firmly confident that God is Good and Holy. One thing that makes me confident of His Fatherhood is that he doesn't let me get away with my sin. I feel the blows from His rod and am consoled, Whom the Lord loves, He disciplines. I know that our journey has a good ending and that all the awful will be turned into blessings. Beauty for ashes.

May we realize moment by moment that we are

UNDER THE MERCY,

and may we become repairers of the breach, restorers of the paths to dwell in.

UTM