View Full Version : Narcissism in the Pulpit
I had seen this about a year ago; Newlife posted a link to it several months ago, but I thought it was time to repost the link due to several recent threads:
http://www.power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm
It's a keeper.
mary
Elisabeth
02-09-2007, 05:30 PM
I remember so many of those characteristics being displayed in my SA pastor, it's scary. :eek:
Elisabeth
02-09-2007, 05:58 PM
My SA pastor would not attend any class taught by any other member of the church. He actually told me it wouldn't "look right" for the pastor to be taught by one of the people in his congregation. :eek: He would not be seen at the church during the Sunday School hour. He would use the excuse, "Well, pastors need to be fed, too. I get my feeding on Sunday mornings right before church by listening to the preachers and evangelists on TV." :rolleyes: And people bought it, saying how spiritual the guy is! (Gag!) Me, I'm wondering if he used that time to look at porn or doing other nefarious things.
Oh, my goodness, Beth! That "pulpit dog" of yours sounds just like mine! :eek: :eek: :eek: (But then, false shepherds are usually not all that different, one from another.)
My old "pastor" used to say, "I don't read commentaries. I don't read anyone's books. I can exegete the Bible for myself." (He said this on more than one occasion, but emphasized it when I'd offered him a copy of one of David Engelsma's books - I know Prof. Engelsma - because I thought he'd be interested in Engelsma's commentary, and he told me to "put that book back in your purse!")
Another saying of "pastor's" was,"We don't need a Sunday school or Bible studies here. How dare you make presumptions on my time by even asking me to do either? All you need are my sermons on Sunday morning and evening." (But in his sermons, he would hardly ever mention the name of Jesus Christ. His sermons were "lectures on conduct" in which he held himself up as an exemplar.) Also, he would not stand for people to go to Bible studies, for example, somewhere else on Wednesday nights. "We have prayer meetings here then." Yeah, for all of about 20 minutes. He would call on my husband to pray (women were forbidden to pray aloud there) and then ridicule his prayer in his own, later closing prayer.
Another "pastor" adage: "The unconverted don't come to Sunday evening services." Our son was particularly cheesed at that one because he would generally have "had enough" of "pastor" on Sunday mornings. Our son is converted!
When I first joined this forum, Jerry very sagely told me that if he had "five minutes alone with pastor's computer," he could "find his porn stash." I wish there were some way for him to do that! :D So it's fascinating that you mention that, too, Beth! ;) :rolleyes:
Aack! Buddy Holly once remarked, "Happiness is Lubbock, Texas in your rearview mirror." (No offense intended to Lubbock. I've been there and it's fine, in my book.) For us, though, "happiness is these pulpit dogs, not only in our rearview mirrors, but maybe under our emotional 'wheels'" as well.
mary
Elisabeth
02-10-2007, 06:05 PM
Oh, my goodness, Beth! That "pulpit dog" of yours sounds just like mine! :eek: :eek: :eek: (But then, false shepherds are usually not all that different, one from another.)
"Pulpit dog" - Now that's funny! (Kind of an insult to dogs, though. I think a squirmy, soft puppy teaches a whole lot more about love than these false shepherds! :D) You're right, false shepherds aren't usually all that different from each other. There are some differences in methodology, but the end result is the same - taking focus off Christ, and causing havok and hurt in the body of Christ. And the ones who don't "feel" victimized are often some of the ones who are victimized the most. But I think it does say in the Bible there will always be false shepherds. Christ is the good shepherd, the true shepherd, and He's the one we are to follow. :D
hoipoloi
02-11-2007, 12:19 PM
Thank you Mary for the Link -- all too true, I'm afraid.
I know of a narcissistic curate who is a control freak. I pity her poor husband and sons who have obviously been reduced to ghostly wraiths by her manipulations -- and she wants to do the same to individuals in the church.
"She who must be obeyed!" and even the vicar finds he has to obey her. It's best to keep away from her, but I think she realises that people like me are the kind of people who are easily bullied and so that's all a bit of a minefield.
Is it part of the qualifications of a preacher that you have to be a bully?
And a narcissistic bully at that!
Worn Shoeleather
02-11-2007, 07:49 PM
:eek:
Scary stuff! Thanks for the link, it gives me A LOT to ruminate on!
shoe
Yeah, I hadn't thought of the implication that I might insult dogs with that simile, Beth... ;) :D Okay, to all you Goldens, Yorkies, Labs, German shepherds, etc. in this forum (and your owners :p ): I'm sorry... Your loyalty to those you serve is far more dependable than that of many if not most "pastors." You didn't deserve to be associated in the same sentence with these alleged clergymen! (But see Philippians 3:2, KJV.) I suppose I could have said, "pulpit cats" - but my two cats, on a daily basis, are more loyal to and care more about me than any "pastor" ever has! :cool: :D :eek:
And Hoi Polloi, yes, I think that being a sociopathic, narcissistic bully definitely presages any aspiring minister's success in today's "Christian church" climate. We need to pray for Christ's real church these days, for we're being "scattered" by these evil nutcases. (Ezekiel 34.) It's so sad - but God's Word warns us about them...
You're very welcome, Shoe! Once in awhile, I think we need things like this article to put these people in their proper perspective and places...
Love, grace and blessings to all,
mary
Elisabeth
02-12-2007, 06:11 PM
Narcissists are very much able to figure out what the board (or whoever) is looking for in a pastor, and project that image. These can be very charming people on the surface! So I guess it's really no wonder they fill our pulpits. :( I guess we just have to look for a church with a down - to - earth pastor, and thank God when we find it!
Narcissists are very much able to figure out what the board (or whoever) is looking for in a pastor, and project that image. These can be very charming people on the surface! So I guess it's really no wonder they fill our pulpits. :( I guess we just have to look for a church with a down - to - earth pastor, and thank God when we find it!
The way I heard it was done in my old church, before this "pastor" was hired was, they were getting down in numbers and they were thinking about selling off the property and shutting down. ("Pastor" told me all this when we were "close.") Then an "unsaved man" said, "Why don't we contact [the denomination in Europe] and see if anyone there would be interested in coming here?" So the "powers that be" in Europe sent out a request among themselves for "anyone who wants to go to the States, not just for a vacation, but to pastor Such-and-Such Church." "Pastor," he told me, was the only one who responded, and so he came here. His wife, he said, begged not to go, but he disregarded her. He wanted to come here and so here they are, 10 years later, still wreaking havoc and destroying lives.
Basically, in this case, the church's "search committee" was looking for anything still warm and that owned a suit and tie. And that's what they got. The "not just for a vacation" part got lost in the shuffle: "Pastor" kind of digs those golf courses in Naples, Sarasota, Traverse City, etc. He's definitely here for a never-ending vacation. :mad:
Re: narcissists - I'm well-versed in their ways because my father was a flaming one. He looked far younger than his years until the booze caught up with him. He was willing to do anything to advance his own causes and to make himself look good. He lied, cheated, embezzled and stole his way through his entire life. As I said on another thread, when I was asked by my counselor to write down "all the similarities" I could think of between my father and "pastor," I came up with 19. I was extremely vulnerable to another "sweet-talking guy..." What an idiot I was! :o I will never do that again, even if it means I never join another church.
mary
dougjb
02-12-2007, 08:54 PM
hi everyone,
I read the link on the NPD and boy does that bring back some memories, and none of them were very pleasant. I have had some serious battles with the narcissistic personalities in church leadership and they can be pretty destructive. As problematic as having a pastor with a narcissist personal can be in the church, I have found that there is something even worse. There are those in the church, in non-leadership capacities, that are used by the leadership as a form of goon squad to intimidate people. There are people [the NPD] behind the scenes doing the leaderships dirty work.
In a church I once attended for many years, there were people with narcissistic personalities who would go around bullying people in order break them down so they would conform to and be passively compliant to the will of the leadership in the church. The leaders knew what these underlings were doing but would do nothing to stop them. Looking back on the issue, I realize that the leaders wanted these disordered personalities running wild in the church as a back door means of controlling the congregation or as a means of driving all non-conformists out of the church.
If one thinks about it, it is a great way of manipulation and control. The NPD has their demented ego built up by thinking they are doing some great work, people are driven into a passive mode[or destroyed], there is no way of getting rid of these people because the leadership really wants them there, and the leadership has deniability regarding the conduct of the NPD because they did not tell them to actually do anything. Sometimes it may not be what the leader do that is the problem but what they allow to happen.
Some food for thought
Dougjb
Ladybug
02-12-2007, 09:13 PM
"But I think it does say in the Bible there will always be false shepherds. Christ is the good shepherd, the true shepherd, and He's the one we are to follow"
Yes the Bible has a lot to say about false teachers/prophets.
Jeremiah 14:14 "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart."
Mark 13:22-23 "If anyone tries to flag you down, calling out, 'Here's the Messiah!' or points, 'There he is!' don't fall for it. Fake Messiahs and lying preachers are going to pop up everywhere. Their impressive credentials and dazzling performances will pull the wool over the eyes of even those who ought to know better. So watch out. I've given you fair warning." (The Message Bible.)
False Shepherds:
Jeremiah 50:6 "My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place."
"My people were lost sheep. Their shepherds led them astray abandoned them in the mountains where they wandered aimless through the hills.They lost track of home, couldn't remember where they came from.
Everyone who met them took advantage of them. Their enemies had no qualms:'Fair game,' they said. 'They walked out on God. They abandoned the True Pasture, the hope of their parents.'" (The Message Bible)
How sad and yet how true!:( Preachers are"suppose" to preach the Truth and yet they lead their flock astray.
In my former home church, I couldn't ask questions in the Sunday School class. Questions were an implication of questioning the Pastor's authority. Questions were not allowed, because the Pastor didn't want to have to admit that he may not have the answer. How can one learn and grow if they are not allowed to ask questions. The Sunday School class was just another preaching service--boring Questions might bring out another point of view that's different from the Pastor's view. Has anyone else experience this in your former church?
What really made things hard for me was when I was going through my cancer & chemo and couldn't go to church. I couldn't go on visitation, ect. Talk about false guilt! Furthermore, I had no income--no tithing. :(
I found out at that time, who my real friends were and those who weren't. That hurt, too. I could tell when someone was asking me how things were going if they were being sincere. If they were just asking to be "polite."
Thankfully, God sent me the book, Grace Awaking by Chuck Swindoll. Man--under grace and not under law! God knew the intent of my heart when I wanted to go to church and couldn't. He didn't zap me because I couldn't give financially. Amazing grace! :)
Grace Awaking: "Bound and shackled by legalists' lists of do's and don'ts, intimidated and immobilized by others' demands and expectations, far too many in God's family merely exist in the tight radius of bondage, dictated by those who have appointed themselves our judge and jury."-Chuck Swindoll [from the Introduction]
"The Grace Awakening "calls all Christians to wake up and reject living in such legalistic, performance-oriented bondage. The God of the universe has given us an amazing, revolutionary gift of grace and freedom. This freedom and grace set us apart from every other "religion" on the face of the earth www.amazon.com You may want to check this book out and let it encourage you. Used copies start at $7.50.
You know what's really heart breaking is when I went to visit my Mom. I went to church that one Sunday. Except for the new Preacher it was like stepping back into time. :) There was a musty, dusty, stale atmosphere. Still preaching evangelistic messages. Broke my heart as I began to pray and ask the Lord to open their spiritual eyes so they can see His Truth.
Anyhow, I welcome your insight and comments. :)
Ladybug
02-12-2007, 09:20 PM
I suppose I could have said, "pulpit cats" - but my two cats, on a daily basis, are more loyal to and care more about me than any "pastor" ever has! :cool: :D :eek: "
Mary, My Tootsie is very supportive and a lot of company to me. Let's be thankful for our "four legged blessings" :D
Carmen
02-13-2007, 03:16 AM
I think that character is the clincher. Maybe narcissistic pastors are picked to lead congregations because they seem to project a sunny personality and seem to be very industrious, as the article stated. I think that sociopaths can also get such positions by faking it. If people would look more at character and at the heart, I think that these people wouldn't stand a chance of getting into any leading positions in a church, much less that of pastor. One would wonder whether they should be in a church at all, since being a Christian implies that one wants to improve oneself to be Christlike, including striving for being compassionate, loving, sympathetic, empathetic, unselfish, wise, patient....., things that a narcissist may not want to strive for. Narcissistic goals seem to be anti-Christ IMO.
The problem is that people that only look at the exterior might write a recommendation for the narcissistic or sociopathic pastor, so that he comes with good credentials and gets accepted for the job. (My mom is a nurse, and told me to take doctors recommending doctors with a grain of salt, sometimes they recommend another doctor because they play golf together, which has nothing to do with their medical expertise. Likewise pastors may not be recommended because they are good shepherds.) I think that it would be better if pastors came out of the congregations themselves, there is more than one example of that in the New Testament, that elders and various servants of the church were appointed in each location - from that location. Only people that have lived with the pastor for a long time would know his real character. That is the only way to be sure that one isn't getting a "dud" from outside. I'd suggest that if a church has to take someone from outside, that the pastor is accountable to a board of trustworthy elders, elders that can't be impressed or bought or threatened into submission, but are wise and not easy to sway. They will have to observe his character and make sure he doesn't get out of line.
I think that character is the clincher. Maybe narcissistic pastors are picked to lead congregations because they seem to project a sunny personality and seem to be very industrious, as the article stated. I think that sociopaths can also get such positions by faking it.
Yep, they sure do fake it. They're classic, self-trained actors who are mere empty shells. Narcissists have no feelings of their own that they can share with others, for they consist only of "feed ME, feed ME," sub-human impulses. If you watch narcissists in action, you'll see them watching other people and making mental notes so they can "ape" normal people when they need to. For example, it's fascinating but also more than a little revolting to watch a narcissist at a funeral home (my father at his sister's wake: now that was an Academy Award-worthy performance if there ever was one that never made it on film! :mad: :( ).
If people would look more at character and at the heart, I think that these people wouldn't stand a chance of getting into any leading positions in a church, much less that of pastor.
But the problem is, how can we know a man's heart by a few interviews and a couple of sermons during the search process? No one knows anyone else's heart, really; only God knows it. Character: hey, my father could make himself look like the nicest guy in the world and pull it off on a superficial basis for years. Then, eventually, he'd snap; the cover would drop and people could see what he really was. Same with "pastors."
One would wonder whether they should be in a church at all, since being a Christian implies that one wants to improve oneself to be Christlike, including striving for being compassionate, loving, sympathetic, empathetic, unselfish, wise, patient....., things that a narcissist may not want to strive for. Narcissistic goals seem to be anti-Christ IMO.
Yes: narcissistic goals are always polar opposites to the two great commandments, and to one of my favorite Bible verses, John 3:30. Those things are absolute anathema to narcissists, and this is why, as you say, Carmen, they don't even belong in church, certainly not in the role of pastor.
The problem is that people that only look at the exterior might write a recommendation for the narcissistic or sociopathic pastor, so that he comes with good credentials and gets accepted for the job. (My mom is a nurse, and told me to take doctors recommending doctors with a grain of salt, sometimes they recommend another doctor because they play golf together, which has nothing to do with their medical expertise. Likewise pastors may not be recommended because they are good shepherds.)
I go to plaintiff lawyers for doctor recommendations, and I have a mental Rolodex of those doctors and hospitals against whom I've written lawsuits over the course of 20 years or so of writing med mal complaints, briefs, mediation summaries, etc. while in the employ of such lawyers. For whatever you want to call them ("ambulance chasers," etc., and I'd be one of the first to call them that), they do know who the good and bad doctors are. Likewise, I don't think pastors are good sources of reference to other pastors. What do they really know? I sure got kicked in the teeth when I went to "another pastor" who knew my "pastor" after the latter abused me.
I think that it would be better if pastors came out of the congregations themselves, there is more than one example of that in the New Testament, that elders and various servants of the church were appointed in each location - from that location. Only people that have lived with the pastor for a long time would know his real character. That is the only way to be sure that one isn't getting a "dud" from outside. I'd suggest that if a church has to take someone from outside, that the pastor is accountable to a board of trustworthy elders, elders that can't be impressed or bought or threatened into submission, but are wise and not easy to sway. They will have to observe his character and make sure he doesn't get out of line.
AMEN!
mary
Jo Jo
02-13-2007, 02:48 PM
Mary, this was the best link and information. I shared it with my friend who left the cult also, and we agreed that this was one of the biggest problems with the pastor and his wife. It just mimicked their personalities and how it wrecked havoc among us. Thanks so much for sharing this. :)
Ladybug
02-13-2007, 04:55 PM
Mary,
Thank you for the information. I'll finish reading it.
Worn Shoeleather
02-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Mary,
Thanks again for the link!
The information has been extremely helpful in aiding my family towards understanding what happened to them.
Shoe
Jo Jo, Ladybug and Shoe, you're so welcome... (Please forgive my tardiness in expressing that... Everything that's part of housework seems to take longer, even when it's in the house, when you get snowed in... :o )
I've looked at a ton of articles on narcissism, but that one seemed as though it might be the most helpful to this forum's participants, even though it is long.
I especially liked the part about these people gravitating to either Hollywood or the pulpit. So... Tom Cruise or Alec Baldwin or George Clooney = "pastor" and vice versa? Nah... ;) :cool: (Mine, though, thought he looked like George Clooney, but he acted like Tom Cruise... on "Oprah." :D Jerk.)
mary
FreeinJesus
10-06-2007, 06:42 PM
I am glad I stumbled onto this thread! I know it's old, but I hoped to add some comments. :)
Mary wrote:
My old "pastor" used to say, "I don't read commentaries. I don't read anyone's books. I can exegete the Bible for myself." (He said this on more than one occasion,
I have heard that before!!
Mary wrote:
Another saying of "pastor's" was,"We don't need a Sunday school or Bible studies here. How dare you make presumptions on my time by even asking me to do either? All you need are my sermons on Sunday morning and evening." (But in his sermons, he would hardly ever mention the name of Jesus Christ. His sermons were "lectures on conduct" in which he held himself up as an exemplar.) Also, he would not stand for people to go to Bible studies, for example, somewhere else on Wednesday nights.
Our Xchurch had no Sunday school (I guess it wasn't 'biblical' to him) Bible study @ Xchurch was basically a mini sermon (more indoctrination). From time to time he would have the men do little sermonettes, which he would sit & listen, however I had never been to a round table authentic Bible study! A bible study where everyone would chip in, where questions could be raised & asked...profound eh?! Also I was telling my husband that I do recall years ago after a big split in Xchurch, the pastor would not allow men's Bible studies! Imagine that, not allow a men's Bible study (without Xpastor present). It was OK to study @home, but why not a small men's group? I think the reason: INFORMATION CONTROL
IMHO
Also, like you Mary, the sermons seemed less & less about Jesus & more & more about "this ministry!"..."this church!".."humble yourselves!" Like JESUS had gotten lost & the focus was on "religion" on that man's organization. Sigh....why didn't we see it sooner?:confused:
Mary: Aack! Buddy Holly once remarked, "Happiness is Lubbock, Texas in your rearview mirror." (No offense intended to Lubbock. I've been there and it's fine, in my book.) For us, though, "happiness is these pulpit dogs, not only in our rearview mirrors, but maybe under our emotional 'wheels'" as well.
You have a way with words Mary!:)
Elisabeth
10-07-2007, 05:23 PM
Funny - I was thinking about this old thread today, myself. The sermon today at church was very good, about Jesus' last day, and I realized how much my own focus is not where it should be, especially at church.
So what does that have to do with narcissism in the pulpit? This. I wrote on my sermon notes "The worst thing was I was taught to be as 'spiritual' as I can be instead of following Jesus." :( See, a narcisstic pastor has his focus on himself instead of God, and trying to look good, instead of following God. And a narcisstic pastor models being as 'spiritual' - looking as possible instead of following God. Even when a person realizes that the narcisstic pastor is getting them to follow him (the pastor) instead of following God, there is still a danger that the teaching of the most important thing is being 'spiritual', instead of truly following God, can remain in the subconscious to some extent. Another example of the long lasting impact of spiritual abuse.
FreeinJesus
10-07-2007, 09:25 PM
Hi Elizabeth! :)
I sure have appreciated reading this thread.
How is your healing from SA going? I'm a lot better than I was probably 4 months ago...but I have a long way to go. I think if I ever had a day that I didn't think about
Xchurch or Xpastor then I'd be really healed...but not yet.
It's been 6 months & I feel good in a lot of ways, but a little like Eeyore from Pooh Bear, there's a cloud
hanging over me. But we are FREE & God will continue to help us, you & all who have been hurt by savage shepherds. I believe God hears our cries & He will bind up the broken hearts of His scattered sheep. All of us!
you wrote:
See, a narcisstic pastor has his focus on himself instead of God, and trying to look good, instead of following God.
You are so right! They lose their focus on Jesus, and the focus gets shifted to 'church attendance' or jumping through all kinds of hoops (to make pastor look good like you mentioned) (my Xpastor would brag about how people were driving X amount of miles every week just to be in his church)....makes a church seem really special when you know families are driving 2 hours one way every sunday. :rolleyes:
Again, sermons go on & on about the "true church" & how we (the elite) have it, & those other churches just don't measure up. All sorts of legalism is promoted & somewhere in all of that pious churchianity, Jesus gets lost & people get hurt MAJOR. :(
Jesus' pure religion: visiting the fatherless & widows in their affliction. WOW! He wasn't arguing about what type of "baptism" is legitimate or what constitutes a "true new testament church"....
blah blah blah...he was DOING!
Jesus' religion is helping others in their afflictions & regarding the downcast & broken.
Showing compassion.
I feel bad for lots of organizations today that call themselves "true churches". They are religious intellects, with hearts of stone. I read this descriptive phrase in a book, "the church of the frozen chosen". Anybody been there? :rolleyes:
God help me I'm ranting again.....Elizabeth thanks for bearing with me.
May God guide you in your spiritual journey to a good & peaceful place.
Jerry
10-08-2007, 03:32 AM
God help me I'm ranting again
Thats ok ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's a good rant :D
I feel bad for lots of organizations today that call themselves "true churches". They are religious intellects, with hearts of stone. I read this descriptive phrase in a book, "the church of the frozen chosen". Anybody been there? :rolleyes:
Well, as a "real Reformed type," I guess some people would call me a "frozen chosen." But I don't feel "frozen!" :D There are some "frozen chosens" of my doctrinal stripe, though, and when I talk to them, I feel as though I have about as much in common with them as I do with snake-handlers. In other words, absolutely nothing.
First Corinthians 13, "frozen chosens!" Read it and live it!
mary
Hope 98
10-08-2007, 10:23 AM
My SA pastor would not attend any class taught by any other member of the church. He actually told me it wouldn't "look right" for the pastor to be taught by one of the people in his congregation. :eek: He would not be seen at the church during the Sunday School hour. He would use the excuse, "Well, pastors need to be fed, too. I get my feeding on Sunday mornings right before church by listening to the preachers and evangelists on TV." :rolleyes: And people bought it, saying how spiritual the guy is! (Gag!) Me, I'm wondering if he used that time to look at porn or doing other nefarious things.
Um - some of those television evangelists are narcissistic enough in their own right to be nefarious. :mad: The church may have been better off if he has been watching porn :p
FreeinJesus
10-08-2007, 01:06 PM
Well, as a "real Reformed type," I guess some people would call me a "frozen chosen." But I don't feel "frozen!" :D There are some "frozen chosens" of my doctrinal stripe, though, and when I talk to them, I feel as though I have about as much in common with them as I do with snake-handlers. In other words, absolutely nothing.
First Corinthians 13, "frozen chosens!" Read it and live it!
mary
Hey Mary!
I sure am glad that you are chosen & not frozen!!:D
Our Xchurch was a 5 point church. I don't want to call myself a 'Calvinist' ever anymore. I just prefer being called a Christian. Because of the fruits I saw I had made up my mind that I'd rather sit in a 'mass' than continue to be where I was. I consider 'arminians' to be brethren in the Lord. I told my Xpastor that & he looked at me in disbelief & said, "well, you have changed what you believe!"
I had been doing my own Bible reading & reading other Sovereign Grace preachers, C.H. Spurgeon, etc...
There was not one particular reason why we left Xchurch because there were many, but there were a few things that completely pushed me over the edge where I knew I could no longer be under that ministry.
This is one.....Xchurch has a tape/cd/dvd ministry & has "members" in other states! (like we were) Yep...wierd, but true. I had struggled greatly w/ the move here for the supposed "true church". I'm not saying nobody was ever good or kind to us, but it wasn't this great *brotherhood*, people were busy w/ their own lives & I was missing my extended family & friends real bad. I was just sad about so much w/ this move here. I think my spirit knew it was wrong for us.
Well, I had the audacity to tell Xpastor that I struggled whether this move was God's burden, or man's burden? I had asked him how come we were discouraged from going to churches where we had lived!? Why weren't we encouraged to just find a church where we lived in stead of putting the burden on us to move our lives? (2 states away!!) (you were made to feel like a cut-rate christian because you weren't fully in 'God's will' for your lives being so far from the 'true church')
Xpreacher did NOT like hearing that. I was actually *thinking* for myself & questioning! Hadn't done that in a while because I was told to "stop doubting your move!" "you had better change your attitude & thoughts!" "the devil is getting at you!" "this church is one in a million"...
So...Xpastor does a sermon & mentions the
members that live in other parts of the US & says (he basically quotes me in the sermon) "some have said why don't I just tell the ***family to try & find a church where they live...well, I can NOT in good conscience tell them to do that. My hands are tied!" I almost fell out of my chair! Then I had to really accept the reality of what was being said...this guy seems to think that HE & his particular churches hold the keys to the kingdom!! Otherwise, why not encourage those believers to find a fellowship right where they live?
Is God's spirit limited? The Ethiopian Eunuch went on this way rejoicing!
Also, I knew what would be involved in such a life altering move & I wouldn't want to put that on anyone. I refused to put my stamp of approval on what was being said, because I WOULD encourage them to find a church where they lived!
Yet, Xpastor could not, would not do this. It was very sad. I wondered if I wasn't under some religious dictatorship??:confused:
Well....PRAISE GOD we got out!!!! :)
Beaten, bruised, shunned, used, thrown away, reviled
:(....but God is still w/ us.
Mary, thanks for hearing me out...I guess I'm just venting & trying to make sense of things. Twilight Zone here.
Jerry, thanks a lot for appreciating my ranting! :)
Elisabeth
10-08-2007, 01:38 PM
Hey Mary!
I sure am glad that you are chosen & not frozen!!:D
Our Xchurch was a 5 point church. I don't want to call myself a 'Calvinist' ever anymore. I just prefer being called a Christian. Because of the fruits I saw I had made up my mind that I'd rather sit in a 'mass' than continue to be where I was. I consider 'arminians' to be brethren in the Lord. I told my Xpastor that & he looked at me in disbelief & said, "well, you have changed what you believe!"
I had been doing my own Bible reading & reading other Sovereign Grace preachers, C.H. Spurgeon, etc...
There was not one particular reason why we left Xchurch because there were many, but there were a few things that completely pushed me over the edge where I knew I could no longer be under that ministry.
This is one.....Xchurch has a tape/cd/dvd ministry & has "members" in other states! (like we were) Yep...wierd, but true. I had struggled greatly w/ the move here for the supposed "true church". I'm not saying nobody was ever good or kind to us, but it wasn't this great *brotherhood*, people were busy w/ their own lives & I was missing my extended family & friends real bad. I was just sad about so much w/ this move here. I think my spirit knew it was wrong for us.
Well, I had the audacity to tell Xpastor that I struggled whether this move was God's burden, or man's burden? I had asked him how come we were discouraged from going to churches where we had lived!? Why weren't we encouraged to just find a church where we lived in stead of putting the burden on us to move our lives? (2 states away!!) (you were made to feel like a cut-rate christian because you weren't fully in 'God's will' for your lives being so far from the 'true church')
Xpreacher did NOT like hearing that. I was actually *thinking* for myself & questioning! Hadn't done that in a while because I was told to "stop doubting your move!" "you had better change your attitude & thoughts!" "the devil is getting at you!" "this church is one in a million"...
So...Xpastor does a sermon & mentions the
members that live in other parts of the US & says (he basically quotes me in the sermon) "some have said why don't I just tell the ***family to try & find a church where they live...well, I can NOT in good conscience tell them to do that. My hands are tied!" I almost fell out of my chair! Then I had to really accept the reality of what was being said...this guy seems to think that HE & his particular churches hold the keys to the kingdom!! Otherwise, why not encourage those believers to find a fellowship right where they live?
Is God's spirit limited? The Ethiopian Eunuch went on this way rejoicing!
Also, I knew what would be involved in such a life altering move & I wouldn't want to put that on anyone. I refused to put my stamp of approval on what was being said, because I WOULD encourage them to find a church where they lived!
Yet, Xpastor could not, would not do this. It was very sad. I wondered if I wasn't under some religious dictatorship??:confused:
Well....PRAISE GOD we got out!!!! :)
Beaten, bruised, shunned, used, thrown away, reviled
:(....but God is still w/ us.
Mary, thanks for hearing me out...I guess I'm just venting & trying to make sense of things. Twilight Zone here.
Jerry, thanks a lot for appreciating my ranting! :)
Now, that's almost textbook spiritual abuse. :eek: And you were right for getting out of that church. The 'true church?!' Yeah, right! More like narcisstic pastor (perhaps even with a messiah complex!) to the core. :mad:
Hi, all,
I only call myself a Calvinist as "shorthand" for saying I believe in the doctrines of grace... The day I would say that an Arminian believer is not my brother or sister in the Lord is the day that I would know I was backslidden and I'd better get myself right with the Lord.
I have a small disagreement with the church that we're trying to bring here, so I expressed it in an e-mail to the minister who's been coming here. Basically, I don't accept everything that's in the Westminster Confession. I'm not going to go into detail, because this is not the place for it. Anyway, if, because I don't accept the entirety of the WCF, they don't want me, then that's okay. The Westminster Confession of Faith is not the Bible. I accept the entirety of the Bible only.
Spurgeon! I love Spurgeon! I have so many of his books! When I was admitted to "the unit" (for depression and anxiety) several years ago, I was allowed to keep two books with me: my Bible and Charles H. Spurgeon's "Prayer and Spiritual Warfare." (My Jewish psychiatrist looked through the latter and said, "That's okay. She can keep that book.") I would love to go back to London sometime and go to the bookstore at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, the church that he founded. Spurgeon sure accomplished a lot, considering he was only about 58 when he died.
That pastor of yours, FIJ -- not Scriptural, is he? That's just incredible what you went through... :mad: :mad: :mad: What a pinhead, and a mean one at that. Soon it'll be two years since we were thrown out of the ************ **** Church. On the day that it happened, I called over to the U. K. and spoke with someone in charge of the "split" from the bad church. He told me that we needed to find, whether it was Arminian or Calvinistic or whatever, simply "a church that preaches the Gospel and exalts Jesus Christ." "The best church for you," he said, not a "perfect" church, because nothing of that ilk exists. He was giving me wise counsel, I thought, and it was worth every penny that it cost me to call across the Atlantic during the day.
Our experience of yesterday morning indicates to my husband and me that "the right church for us" is not one in which the elders wrap up the service by screaming and throwing chairs at each other while the pastor is hightailing it out the door. :cool: :eek: (We've checked that one off as to any possibility of our continuing to attend... :D ) If we want to see a bar fight, we can go somewhere else and get buffalo wings with it.
mary
FreeinJesus
10-08-2007, 04:44 PM
Now, that's almost textbook spiritual abuse. :eek: And you were right for getting out of that church. The 'true church?!' Yeah, right! More like narcisstic pastor (perhaps even with a messiah complex!) to the core. :mad:
:)Hello Elisabeth, Unbelievable, eh? Unfortunately it's true.
I hope if someone is reading what I/we went through & they are in a similar situation that they can have the courage to see that it's not right & to run for their lives!
I am wondering now if there are actually more dangerous cultic churches out there than there are healthy ones?????:confused::eek:
FreeinJesus
10-08-2007, 05:37 PM
Hi, all,
I only call myself a Calvinist as "shorthand" for saying I believe in the doctrines of grace... The day I would say that an Arminian believer is not my brother or sister in the Lord is the day that I would know I was backslidden and I'd better get myself right with the Lord.
.......
Spurgeon! I love Spurgeon! I have so many of his books! When I was admitted to "the unit" (for depression and anxiety) several years ago, I was allowed to keep two books with me: my Bible and Charles H. Spurgeon's "Prayer and Spiritual Warfare." (My Jewish psychiatrist looked through the latter and said, "That's okay. She can keep that book.") I would love to go back to London sometime and go to the bookstore at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, the church that he founded. Spurgeon sure accomplished a lot, considering he was only about 58 when he died.
That pastor of yours, FIJ -- not Scriptural, is he? That's just incredible what you went through... :mad: :mad: :mad: What a pinhead, and a mean one at that. Soon it'll be two years since we were thrown out of the ************ **** Church. On the day that it happened, I called over to the U. K. and spoke with someone in charge of the "split" from the bad church. He told me that we needed to find, whether it was Arminian or Calvinistic or whatever, simply "a church that preaches the Gospel and exalts Jesus Christ." "The best church for you," he said, not a "perfect" church, because nothing of that ilk exists. He was giving me wise counsel, I thought, and it was worth every penny that it cost me to call across the Atlantic during the day.
Our experience of yesterday morning indicates to my husband and me that "the right church for us" is not one in which the elders wrap up the service by screaming and throwing chairs at each other while the pastor is hightailing it out the door. :cool: :eek: (We've checked that one off as to any possibility of our continuing to attend... :D ) If we want to see a bar fight, we can go somewhere else and get buffalo wings with it.
mary
Dear Mary,
I wish I would have confided in some other pastor/preacher before moving here. That was good advice that pastor gave you about 'church'. I was so brainwashed....I did have some people tell me that
"that guy sounds like a cult leader..." Yet, I was so naive & actually because of the doctrines of grace (which I totally believed) I took everything else that was
taught, hook, line & sinker. I had nothing to compare it to except for Catholicism. Yeah...Jesus....I feel so stupid. :(
I love C.H. Spurgeon! He also seemed like a compassionate person, though intense. I know he acknowledged the universal church. :)
I have read where Johanne/John Calvin was more of a dictator. Have you ever heard this? I know he had Miguel Servetus burned at the stake, his crime? Didn't agree with all Calvin taught....so I've heard. That's why I bring up "roastings"......I wonder if there is a pattern of rigidness that leads to spiritual men roasting their fellow brothers! :confused:
Well, I don't want to give Christianity a bad name, I do love Jesus...Jesus is GOOD!....but men need to have their eyes opened to reality. I had rose colored glasses on....for too long.
WOW! That church episode sounds like one hell of a time!
Shouldn't church be a little taste of heaven?....:o
and some think it's only other religions that are fanatics!!
:o :rolleyes: :D
God bless you Mary!
FIJ
An Arminian friend who decided that she could no longer tolerate my cards, notes, and other expressions of Christian sisterly affection because I'm a Calvinist used to routinely beat me over the head with the Servetus story.
What actually happened was that John Calvin did not use extraordinary means to prevent the execution of Servetus. He didn't personally execute him. Those were unusual times, and there was a bounty on Calvin's head at the time as well. Servetus challenged him; he came to "get" Calvin and Calvin didn't prevent others from taking him out. I refuse to be lumped in with those who tell me that "I and mine" killed Servetus. The man was no saint himself (in the Catholic sense - :D -- he was never canonized! ;) ).
You know, FIJ, I'm so appreciative of your presence here as a fellow ex-mackerel snapper (:D)! When I came out of Catholicism, I literally stepped from going to Mass one week (where I felt like barfing from the "Agnus Dei" part of it onward) to the very next Sunday, attending a Reformed Protestant service - and immediately, in that church, feeling as though I was at last "at home." That was almost 16 years ago and I've never looked back. Nothing in Catholicism prepared me, however, for the kind of stuff I've endured in Reformed Protestantism, being among allegedly other "Christians:" the back-stabbing, the legalism, the hypocrisy, the false piety, the serious sexual harassment by one minister and getting thrown out of "his" church because I turned him down, witnessing the ostracism of others simply because they were "different," etc., etc. What I've seen has taught me that really, "the Church" is so imperfect and in the end, at the end of every day, all we really have is Jesus Christ. And He is sufficient! We can talk all day about sleazy ministers and their sock puppet wives and other assorted evil-minded souls - but they don't matter, really. All that matters is Christ and the fact that He loved us enough to save us from the consequences of our own sins. That's incredible, too incredible for me to fully comprehend. It's sure not what Rome teaches! I praise the Lord for His matchless mercy towards me!
A good and restful night to all!
mary
FreeinJesus
10-14-2007, 05:42 PM
An Arminian friend who decided that she could no longer tolerate my cards, notes, and other expressions of Christian sisterly affection because I'm a Calvinist used to routinely beat me over the head with the Servetus story.
What actually happened was that John Calvin did not use extraordinary means to prevent the execution of Servetus. He didn't personally execute him. Those were unusual times, and there was a bounty on Calvin's head at the time as well. Servetus challenged him; he came to "get" Calvin and Calvin didn't prevent others from taking him out. I refuse to be lumped in with those who tell me that "I and mine" killed Servetus. The man was no saint himself (in the Catholic sense - :D -- he was never canonized! ;) ).
You know, FIJ, I'm so appreciative of your presence here as a fellow ex-mackerel snapper (:D)! When I came out of Catholicism, I literally stepped from going to Mass one week (where I felt like barfing from the "Agnus Dei" part of it onward) to the very next Sunday, attending a Reformed Protestant service - and immediately, in that church, feeling as though I was at last "at home." That was almost 16 years ago and I've never looked back. Nothing in Catholicism prepared me, however, for the kind of stuff I've endured in Reformed Protestantism, being among allegedly other "Christians:" the back-stabbing, the legalism, the hypocrisy, the false piety, the serious sexual harassment by one minister and getting thrown out of "his" church because I turned him down, witnessing the ostracism of others simply because they were "different," etc., etc. What I've seen has taught me that really, "the Church" is so imperfect and in the end, at the end of every day, all we really have is Jesus Christ. And He is sufficient! We can talk all day about sleazy ministers and their sock puppet wives and other assorted evil-minded souls - but they don't matter, really. All that matters is Christ and the fact that He loved us enough to save us from the consequences of our own sins. That's incredible, too incredible for me to fully comprehend. It's sure not what Rome teaches! I praise the Lord for His matchless mercy towards me!
A good and restful night to all!
mary
Hello Mary!
Yeah...the Servetus thing was not good. I have read or heard (can't recall??) that it took Rome what, 1200 years or so before she started burning saints. But the protestants only about 20 years!! :eek:
Oh well...I believe in grace, but I do not accept the elitism of those who espouse the "true church" BS & those who spend more time cutting other denominations down in the pulpit than building people up for Christ. The devil is the accuser & I can say that many pastors spend a hell of a lot of time accusing people....and for what? :confused: Not being in their "brand" of Christianity...judging people who have the courage to leave, even on peaceful terms?
I don't think narcissists will let a "peaceful" exit happen. Nope. I've been there on the receiving end of the condemnation & being judged by a man & his organization. It hurts something terrible. :(
Jesus God I am soo thankful that He got us out! We could have been left to rot in their, but God heard our cries & gave us the strength to leave. I have lots to be thankful for!!!:D:D
I have anger at times because of what that man put us & our family through. I forgive, but I will never forget! :mad: Those who forget the past tend to repeat it.
You are right Mary....ultimately it is about JESUS! Jesus was a rebel too in many ways. His idea of religion sure is a lot different from what is "religion" today. :rolleyes: OH well.. I could never join the RCC again, but I think many of them I'll see in Heaven. Heck I'm wondering if I wont see more RCC's there than those self-righteous independent
bible christians.:p
BTW my mom is still RCC & she believes in Sovereign Grace. Yep! :)
I hope you are feeling better Mary!
God bless & guide!
Hello Mary!
Yeah...the Servetus thing was not good. I have read or heard (can't recall??) that it took Rome what, 1200 years or so before she started burning saints. But the protestants only about 20 years!! :eek:
Oh well...I believe in grace, but I do not accept the elitism of those who espouse the "true church" BS & those who spend more time cutting other denominations down in the pulpit than building people up for Christ. The devil is the accuser & I can say that many pastors spend a hell of a lot of time accusing people....and for what? :confused: Not being in their "brand" of Christianity...judging people who have the courage to leave, even on peaceful terms?
I don't think narcissists will let a "peaceful" exit happen. Nope. I've been there on the receiving end of the condemnation & being judged by a man & his organization. It hurts something terrible. :(
Jesus God I am soo thankful that He got us out! We could have been left to rot in their, but God heard our cries & gave us the strength to leave. I have lots to be thankful for!!!:D:D
I have anger at times because of what that man put us & our family through. I forgive, but I will never forget! :mad: Those who forget the past tend to repeat it.
You are right Mary....ultimately it is about JESUS! Jesus was a rebel too in many ways. His idea of religion sure is a lot different from what is "religion" today. :rolleyes: OH well.. I could never join the RCC again, but I think many of them I'll see in Heaven. Heck I'm wondering if I wont see more RCC's there than those self-righteous independent
bible christians.:p
BTW my mom is still RCC & she believes in Sovereign Grace. Yep! :)
I hope you are feeling better Mary!
God bless & guide!
Hey, FIJ! :)
"The Church" (the only one, Roman Catholicism, before the 16th century) was cool as long as people like Martin Luther didn't object to selling indulgences and or promulgate the idea that "the just shall live by faith." Then William Tyndale and John Hus and so many others were killed by the church. "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" tells the story of those who were killed by Catholics persecuting these "heretics."
Moving along... You're absolutely right that a narcissistic pastor (NP) will not allow a peaceful departure from his congregation. It was necessary for me to retain an attorney to threaten my particular narcissistic pastor. Fortunately, it worked. Sure, it hurts, but it's a necessary part of the separation.
My old NP allowed the devil to enter into a partnership with him by means of the occult, especially an affiliation with certain of the martial arts that became much more important to him than his congregation was. He let the devil into his life, and he's going to reap the consequences of that kind of a merger. Kind of a no-brainer there.
Again moving along... If your mom believes in sovereign grace, that's a very good sign! :) My mother, too, was a lifelong Catholic. When I was little (about 8) she gave me a copy of Francis Thompson's "The Hound of Heaven" - I've mentioned this before on here - and she told me, "I want you to read this and get familiar with it. I want you to know what this poem means." Well, if you really read it, and Thompson's biography, you know that it's a story of a real Christian conversion. I read the poem, but I didn't understand it until years later, when I got converted. I'm hoping that my mom's love of that poem meant that she was a Christian, despite her other failings. She died in her early sixties as a result of a beating by my father (he got away with it; she sustained a subdural hematoma and he refused to allow her to be treated. When she died, it was called a "stroke." :mad:); I am hoping that I will see her again. I trust that I will never see my earthly "father" again, and that's just fine.
Once again, today, we had another Sunday without a proper place to attend church because of the dust-up last week. We went to a small, independent Baptist church in the neighborhood where the preacher talked mostly about himself, his running habit, his daughter, his new grandchild on the way, yada yada and... aack. :( I pray for the Lord to provide an appropriate, Gospel-preaching place for my husband, our son and I to attend - and soon.
Be that as it may, would I not have had happen to me what happened two years ago this week? (Getting thrown out by "pastor" in a phone call...) No! That was the Lord saying to me, "I've had enough of you being mistreated by this demon. I'm taking you out of there, and I'm going to use his narcissism to do it." I didn't get myself out of that "church" and so the Lord did it for me. All praise to Him!!!! FIJ, I know it hurts and it doesn't seem to end, but believe me, it will end. Time helps; learning about narcissists and that they can fool just about any psychiatrist in the world, along with their families for years, also helps.
There was nothing you could/should have done any different, FIJ. There was nothing that was your fault. Your Heavenly Father took care of you by taking you out of that church, and He's still taking care of you. You have Jesus to fly to, and the Holy Spirit to commend verses and counsel from His Word to refresh and comfort you. God has provided WELL for you and yes, you have so much to be thankful for! :) :) :)
May God bless you this week, FIJ, and everyone else here...
mary
FreeinJesus
10-14-2007, 08:58 PM
Hey, FIJ! :)
"The Church" (the only one, Roman Catholicism, before the 16th century) was cool as long as people like Martin Luther didn't object to selling indulgences and or promulgate the idea that "the just shall live by faith." Then William Tyndale and John Hus and so many others were killed by the church........
Moving along... You're absolutely right that a narcissistic pastor (NP) will not allow a peaceful departure from his congregation. It was necessary for me to retain an attorney to threaten my particular narcissistic pastor. Fortunately, it worked. .....
........ If your mom believes in sovereign grace, that's a very good sign! :) My mother, too, was a lifelong Catholic. When I was little (about 8) she gave me a copy of Francis Thompson's "The Hound of Heaven" - I've mentioned this before on here - and she told me, "I want you to read this and get familiar with it. I want you to know what this poem means." Well, if you really read it, and Thompson's biography, you know that it's a story of a real Christian conversion. I read the poem, but I didn't understand it until years later, when I got converted. I'm hoping that my mom's love of that poem meant that she was a Christian, despite her other failings. She died in her early sixties as a result of a beating by my father (he got away with it; she sustained a subdural hematoma and he refused to allow her to be treated. When she died, it was called a "stroke." :mad:); I am hoping that I will see her again. I trust that I will never see my earthly "father" again, and that's just fine.
Once again, today, we had another Sunday without a proper place to attend church because of the dust-up last week. We went to a small, independent Baptist church in the neighborhood where the preacher talked mostly about himself, his running habit, his daughter, his new grandchild on the way, yada yada and... aack. :( I pray for the Lord to provide an appropriate, Gospel-preaching place for my husband, our son and I to attend - and soon.
Be that as it may, would I not have had happen to me what happened two years ago this week? (Getting thrown out by "pastor" in a phone call...) No! That was the Lord saying to me, "I've had enough of you being mistreated by this demon. I'm taking you out of there, and I'm going to use his narcissism to do it." I didn't get myself out of that "church" and so the Lord did it for me. All praise to Him!!!! FIJ, I know it hurts and it doesn't seem to end, but believe me, it will end. Time helps; learning about narcissists and that they can fool just about any psychiatrist in the world, along with their families for years, also helps.
There was nothing you could/should have done any different, FIJ. There was nothing that was your fault. Your Heavenly Father took care of you by taking you out of that church, and He's still taking care of you. You have Jesus to fly to, and the Holy Spirit to commend verses and counsel from His Word to refresh and comfort you. God has provided WELL for you and yes, you have so much to be thankful for! :) :) :)
May God bless you this week, FIJ, and everyone else here...
mary
Dear Mary, I am so sad to hear about what happened to your mom!! How horrible! :( I cannot even imagine what a nightmare that must have been. How did you cope?:(
The RCC did many terrible things...but my hunch is that I think the tide is turning. ( my experience has colored my opi now) I think there is a lot of spiritual abuse going on in these *churches*, especially those w/ no legitimate accountability.
I think it's funny though....I read one of the 'confessions' of a bible denomination & one of the first things was they believed the RCC was the antichrist, beast or whore or something like that. :confused: I found it quite unbelievable that anyone/organization could say that. That organization isn't God to make a judgment like that, like it's a FACT....sheesh...it could be Scientology...or the Mormons.:eek:..or the Jehovah's Witnesses.:eek: It was pretty outrageous for them to assert that.
Of course I am totally biased ;) but I believe my mom is an elect child of God. I think God's laws are written in her heart & her life reflects it. It seems like your mom had a heart for God, especially her giving you that book...that is beautiful. A good sign.:) Everyone is in God's hands. I'm so glad He's more merciful than the creatures that He made can be! :rolleyes:
Hey...I wonder if you attended my Xchurch this Sunday!? :p
Yes Mary, God is taking care of us & you too! All of his sheep. It's not always easy & I guess God has his reasons, but as bad as it is...I really could be much worse.
(though it could be much better too!!:rolleyes::D)
May Jesus, the living word, help you & all of His suffering sheep. He hasn't forgotten you. :)
Thanks, FIJ... I coped with my mom's death by making sure my son knows exactly what happened to her (since all of my siblings are in total denial). I also turned my "father" over to the Lord. He isn't my worry anymore. Despite what he did, I still witnessed to him, but he didn't want to hear it... In any event, I know that justice has finally been done, for wherever he is now (his earthly wreaking of emotional and physical havoc is over, except for the memories) represents God's perfect justice.
Still reading "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock, and he warns us not to state that we can know the state of anyone else's soul, nor can we say with certainty where anyone else is going. We can know where we ourselves are going, for the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit as to that... So, the good news for us is that we cannot say that any particular Catholic, or anyone else for that matter, is not saved! :D We don't know about anyone except ourselves! I operate on the principle that people who say they're Christians are indeed Christians, i.e., my brothers and sisters in Christ, and on the alternate principle that someone who says (s)he is not a Christian now may well become one tomorrow, or next week, or next year, and I should not be less kind to him or her than I am to current fellow Christians. It's not for me to say.
Your mom may well be an elect Catholic! :) :) :)
(My old "pastor" used to say that he could tell who was regenerate and who was not by whether they came back to church on Sunday night for the evening service. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: - :rolleyes: :cool: He was a complete numbskull.)
mary
Elisabeth
10-15-2007, 04:03 PM
(My old "pastor" used to say that he could tell who was regenerate and who was not by whether they came back to church on Sunday night for the evening service. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: - :rolleyes: :cool: He was a complete numbskull.)
mary
I think complete numbskull is an understatement. :mad: :mad: I agree you can't know for sure the state of someone else's soul. (As far as being able to tell on the basis of Sunday evening - that is so far out of the park I'm not sure how you can describe it. :p)
FreeinJesus
10-16-2007, 05:49 PM
Thanks, FIJ... I coped with my mom's death by making sure my son knows exactly what happened to her (since all of my siblings are in total denial). I also turned my "father" over to the Lord. He isn't my worry anymore. ......
mary
Hi Mary! :)
That is awful about your mom & dad...I am sorry you had to go through something like that & your kids. :(
he warns us not to state that we can know the state of anyone else's soul, nor can we say with certainty where anyone else is going....... So, the good news for us is that we cannot say that any particular Catholic, or anyone else for that matter, is not saved! :D
I'd rather err on the side of that person IS saved...than not ;) :D
I should not be less kind to him or her than I am to current fellow Christians. It's not for me to say. SO TRUE!!
Your mom may well be an elect Catholic! :) :) :) That is my prayer! The fruits of her life have been good & she has said more than a few times that "God will save whoever He will"....it's in HIS hands. :) Makes me very hopeful.
My old "pastor" used to say that he could tell who was regenerate and who was not by whether they came back to church on Sunday night for the evening service. Unbelievable!! I never ceased to be amazed at what these mini-popes spew from their ''bully-pulpits''.:mad: "numbskull" is way too nice of a term for him Mary!
Whoa, FIJ!!! (Go, go, go, FIJ's MOM!!! :D) Your mom actually believes in Romans 9:15 and all those other verses that indicate God's sovereignty over the disbursal of His saving grace?! She is a rare Catholic indeed!!!! Probably the only one in her diocese who believes that!!!! That is absolutely amazing. I am floored!!! If I were to say anything like "God will save whoever He will" in a gathering of my family, I'd get a "knuckle sandwich" instead of the cheesecake that we usually eat when we're together! :D
I will keep her in prayer, FIJ!!!!
(Thanks re: your kind words... My siblings are not tortured as I was/have been, for they deny, deny, deny. :mad: I calls 'em as I sees 'em. My "father" was a remarkably loathesome man. As I said in another thread, my counselor once asked me to write down "all the similarities" there were between my old "pastor" and my "father." I laughed at him - but then when I did the "assignment," there were 19 similarities. They even looked similar... :eek: :eek: :eek: "Pastor" was/is also a particularly hateful and hate-filled individual. I don't know why I'm so triggered lately. Might have something to do with Thursday being the 2nd anniversary of "pastor" throwing me out of that "church" - and this month is also the anniversary of my mother's fatal beating. I'm trying, as Amy heroically did lately and succeeded - :) -, to come off of all psychotropic medications. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." [Philippians 4:13.])
Anyway, wow: I'm still blown away by the thought of a Catholic who believes that God is sovereign as to people's salvation! May the Lord bless her richly!!!!
mary
FreeinJesus
10-17-2007, 01:18 PM
Whoa, FIJ!!! (Go, go, go, FIJ's MOM!!! :D) Your mom actually believes in Romans 9:15 and all those other verses that indicate God's sovereignty over the disbursal of His saving grace?! She is a rare Catholic indeed!!!! Probably the only one in her diocese who believes that!!!! That is absolutely amazing. I am floored!!! If I were to say anything like "God will save whoever He will" in a gathering of my family, I'd get a "knuckle sandwich" instead of the cheesecake that we usually eat when we're together! :D
I will keep her in prayer, FIJ!!!!
(Thanks re: your kind words... My siblings are not tortured as I was/have been, for they deny, deny, deny. :mad: I calls 'em as I sees 'em. My "father" was a remarkably loathesome man. As I said in another thread, my counselor once asked me to write down "all the similarities" there were between my old "pastor" and my "father." I laughed at him - but then when I did the "assignment," there were 19 similarities. They even looked similar... :eek: :eek: :eek: "Pastor" was/is also a particularly hateful and hate-filled individual. I don't know why I'm so triggered lately. Might have something to do with Thursday being the 2nd anniversary of "pastor" throwing me out of that "church" - and this month is also the anniversary of my mother's fatal beating. I'm trying, as Amy heroically did lately and succeeded - :) -, to come off of all psychotropic medications. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." [Philippians 4:13.])
Anyway, wow: I'm still blown away by the thought of a Catholic who believes that God is sovereign as to people's salvation! May the Lord bless her richly!!!!
mary
:)
It's true Mary! She knows 'works' doesn't get one saved & that the good works are "fruit". She believes your own faith is a gift from God..:D:D
I chuckled with your 'knuckle sandwich' comment!! Hadn't heard that expression in a while....:p
It's gotta be hard when you know what a person is doing is wrong, like w/ your dad, and others ignore it, gloss it over, make excuses, or turn a blind eye. Thank God he gave you the ability to see things as they really are!
No wonder you are being triggered!! W/ the 2 yr. anniversary & your mom's assault! :( Has it gotten any easier??? God, I hope so because I need to believe it gets easier & the wounds will heal w/ time. :(
I look forward to a time when I don't think so much about our SA. I dwell too much on it because I'm still trying to figure this out...understand "why", I guess. :confused: I think I have PTSD from this....sucks.
Anyhow Mary, I do hope that you are successful in getting off the meds. Listen to your body. Yes...we can do all things through Christ who give us strength. HE is with you, He is your strength...all of ours. God is with each & every one of us, even though sometimes we can feel so alone.
You are in my prayers!
FIJ
Hey, FIJ,
October is a bad month for me... My mom was beaten on Oct. 6; I was thrown out of the church (the last one of which we were members) on Oct. 18; and a long time ago (in the '90s), on Oct. 26, I was diagnosed with DCIS (ductal carcinoma in situ, a non-invasive breast cancer, but it entirely consumed the breast, so I had to have a modified radical mastectomy, and I had a reconstruction. That was a hoot and a half, not to make a pun. But it's over... :))
The Lord brought me through all these things and He saw to it that I'm now not permanently tied up in a Posey vest, or incarcerated somewhere... So that must mean He's blessing me. :D :D :D :D Hey, we are, each of us, sane and well enough to be typing away on our 'puters, so how bad can it be?! :p :)
And He's blessing you, too, FIJ, one day and one minute at a time. Things could be so much worse for each of us respectively, no matter what has happened to us in the past!
Things only get easier when you remember Who's in charge of absolutely everything. Had any of the awful things I've mentioned not happened to me (I'm not even including the blood malignancy I'm facing now, which is not going to be treated because I can have no further blood transfusions; I'm going to be "made comfortable," they say, but that's it), then I wouldn't be as close to the Lord as I am now. I would be more tied to this world than I am now, and I don't want to be tied to this world. Not anymore.
I assure you, FIJ, that it'll get easier. Of course, it would get a lot easier real fast if we could each find "a better church," right now, but that's in the Lord's timing. We've visited churches where, yeah, the bad feelings from the other one seemed to vanish like vapor - and that's a blessing from the Lord when that happens. (Not our current one, where the services have taken on more of the character of the WWE than anything liturgical.) We're going to visit elsewhere this weekend; we're going over to what's known here as "The Holy Land" (Grand Rapids), and visit a church there. We have friends in GR, so hopefully this'll be a pleasant weekend.
Onward and upward, and in the Lord...
Love in Christ,
mary
FreeinJesus
10-20-2007, 10:55 AM
Hey, FIJ,
October is a bad month for me... My mom was beaten on Oct. 6; I was thrown out of the church (the last one of which we were members) on Oct. 18; and a long time ago (in the '90s), on Oct. 26, I was diagnosed with DCIS (ductal carcinoma in situ, a non-invasive breast cancer, but it entirely consumed the breast, so I had to have a modified radical mastectomy, and I had a reconstruction. That was a hoot and a half, not to make a pun. But it's over...)
...........
......Things could be so much worse for each of us respectively, no matter what has happened to us in the past!
....Had any of the awful things I've mentioned not happened to me (I'm not even including the blood malignancy I'm facing now, .....then I wouldn't be as close to the Lord as I am now...
I assure you, FIJ, that it'll get easier. Of course, it would get a lot easier real fast if we could each find "a better church," ......
Onward and upward, and in the Lord...
Love in Christ,
mary
(Mary I'll quote you in red below)
Oh Mary....:(:( I'm humbled by all you've gone through.....makes my journey look like a 'cake-walk' !!
:o:(
Your life is a testament to how God can help someone through the worst! Sounds like you have been through absolute hell at times! You are in my prayers, as many others are as well. Knowing you have come out on the other side of soooo much, gives me hope! Thanks!
That blood disorder sounds absolutely horrible! :( I'm afraid to ask what you mean by this>>
I can have no further blood transfusions; I'm going to be "made comfortable," they say, but that's it
:(:confused:?????????????
.... the services have taken on more of the character of the WWE than anything liturgical
Mary, what is WWE? :confused:
The Lord brought me through all these things and He saw to it that I'm now not permanently tied up in a Posey vest, or incarcerated somewhere... So that must mean He's blessing me. :D ..Hey, we are, each of us, sane and well enough to be typing away on our 'puters, so how bad can it be?! :p
Yeah!!:D I'm thankful I have my sanity left after all the psychological, manipulative & absolute cruelty we experienced. It's a crime what these "pharisees" do in God's name:mad:...but God sees it Mary, & someday the master will ask for an accounting...
we're going over to what's known here as "The Holy Land" (Grand Rapids), and visit a church there.
Oh....trigger here. :(
I remember being in a restaurant there once & some guy was praying for what seemed like...10 minutes...going on & on. Sheesh!! I think what passes for ..."ooooh, look how holy", is nothing more than self-righteousness!!
It's true, my experiences have definitely colored my perspective. I hope it goes well for you....
PLEASE BE CAREFUL!!! Don't be moved from the simplicity that is in Christ. :)
FreeinJesus
yeshua'smags
10-20-2007, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE=FreeinJesus;54688.... the services have taken on more of the character of the WWE than anything liturgical
Mary, what is WWE? :confused:
:DThe WWE used to be the WWF ~ World Wrestling Federation ,,,,I think...something like that. It's professional wrestling anyway.
Mary you freakin crack me up!! haha:D
FreeinJesus
10-20-2007, 03:10 PM
[QUOTE=FreeinJesus;54688.... the services have taken on more of the character of the WWE than anything liturgical
Mary, what is WWE? :confused:
:DThe WWE used to be the WWF ~ World Wrestling Federation ,,,,I think...something like that. It's professional wrestling anyway.
Mary you freakin crack me up!! haha:D
I get it now! :p
Thanks Mags!!
Yeah....Mary has a way w/ words!:D
Hey, Mags -- I'm so glad if I crack anyone up here! :D :D :D (Maybe it's one of my "ministries..." ;) :rolleyes:) Thanks! And yep: the WWE used to be the WWF, and that's what I was referring to. It's so interesting to see the "blending of the cultures" (i.e., church and professional wrestling) as we've seen lately on Sunday mornings at one particular "church" - not. :cool::mad:
FIJ, sorry about the trigger... We spent the weekend in "The Holy Land" and we had a very good time; we met with a professor at one of the seminaries there who's going to be (Lord willing) in on, to some extent, our new preaching station start-up here on the east side of the state. We had a lovely chat with him on Saturday afternoon. Then, the next day, he served as the guest preacher at a local church, for the regular pastor was on vacation, and we attended there to hear him preach. Anyway, at the end of the service (during which he preached an absolutely beautiful sermon on John 19), he made "the cardinal mistake" of closing the pulpit Bible. :eek: :cool: Afterwards, I witnessed an old, woolen-hatted crow land in the hair (so to speak!) of one of the elders and complain about that: "We never do that here! How dare he close the pulpit Bible! That gave me the willies!" He replied, wisely, "Well, do you close your Bible at home when you're done with your devotions?" She said, "Yes, but that's different..." She wanted to continue lambasting the preacher, but the elder, who'd been chatting with us before she landed on him and dumped her "payload," said to her, "I'll speak with you later about it," and he continued with us. This is exactly the kind of doofus-driven legalism that gives Reformed people a bad name, and I wish certain people would give it a permanent break. :o :mad: I know she was an old lady and all, but that doesn't give her an excuse. In fact, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have called her a crow. Maybe she has hardening of the arteries or something... :o
Thanks, FIJ, so very much for your concern... I've been dealing with these blood issues for my whole adult life. At first, I "wasn't supposed to make it to 25," but I outlived the hematologist who made that prediction. I don't want to give my exact age in case "pastor" is trolling here, but suffice it to say that the pregnancy that I "wasn't supposed to survive" resulted in a "baby" (our only one) whom I've lived to see earn his Ph.D. Now some new problems have arisen, but I trust in the Lord and His mercies, which never fail... :) God doesn't read lab results or bone marrow biopsy reports; He has His plans. Psalm 112:7 - we're not to be afraid of "evil tidings." Whatever. I may live another day, or another 20 years. I just have to do it without the transfusions that I was able to receive for so many years. Whatever the Lord's plan is, it alone is the perfect one and I'm cool with it! :)
You're right: we've been left sane, intact and "instructed" as to what constitutes a decent church and what doesn't. Now we know what to avoid, and there are more churches to avoid out there than there are to consider. You know, I was thinking about some of the Catholic churches of which I was a member before I left the RCC, and there were some real mangy dogs (not to insult dogs; just using the term as a metaphor!) of them out there, too. I got into some real scrapes in them, too. Where to go? Anywhere that the Gospel is preached faithfully and Christ is exalted. And that's IT. The Lord will bind up our wounds and lead us, always. (Ezekiel 34.)
Love to all,
mary
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