Is it good to debate Scripture?

[Voyager]

When I first came here, I had been in a church for 12 years that did not alllow any of its members to stray from the teachings of the pastor. If you did so, it was considered "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". This was supposedly one of the sins that you could never be forgiven of. Needless to say when I escaped that church, I didn't immediately get free of its brainwashing and indoctrination. So, when I ran into other Christians who believed differently than I did, my natural instinct was to try to set them straight doctrinally.

When I first came onto this forum back in 1999 (it was on spiritualabuse.com back then before it was moved here in September of 2004), I ran into a lot of people who believed differently than I did. We did have one thing in common though: We had all been spiritually abused. But whenever we stopped talking about spiritual abuse and started talking about the Bible - lookout! Many times, the sh*t would hit the fan, if you know what I mean. Because many of us were so convinced that to stray from our particular brand of Bible interpretation meant being punished by hellfire, naturally we wanted to spare each other from that torment (to put it nicely).

If anyone thinks the recent arguments on here were bad, these were very civil compared to the ones in the past. I mean, things got so bad a few times that people were leaving the forums left and right, and the Admin had to shut the forum down for several days at a time. At one time, I didn't think it was ever going to open again. People were so adamant that everyone here had to believe the Bible exactly the way they did that they were willing to fight tooth and nail to win the debates (myself included). Some may say I am still that way (LOL!), but if you ask some of those who have been here a while, I have toned down drastically.

Usually, I was the one who took the stand that none of us should have to believe a certain way to be accepted. I had endured 12 long years of performance-based acceptance teaching, and when I finally read that this was wrong in Jeff VanVonderan's book "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" - well then by God, I had had enough of it! I was no longer going to let anyone judge, condemn, and reject me just because I didn't believe a certain way anymore without letting them know this was wrong. This usually caused me to get ganged up on by people who believed it was still okay to kick people out of your life who didn't believe the way they did. Plus, I didn't back down from my newfound stand too easily, so many times I ended up looking like the culprit in the debates.

At first when these debates would occur, I would walk away feeling devastated and shattered - many times for days on end. I would think to myself, "God, this cannot be helping me recover!". But I have since changed my mind on that idea. I believe that disagreeing with people is not only healthy, but it is absolutely imperative to your recovery from spiritual abuse! Since we were taught not to disagree with the house doctrine for so long, it caused our "disagreer" to become atrophied. Instead of thinking for ourselves, we had allowed the leader to do our thinking for us. We used their arguments when debating outsiders (or dissenters) who disagreed, and didn't have to think up any of our own. Now that we have to think for oursleves - it can feel downright painful at times to use this part of our mind again in an intelligent argument or debate.

I'm not by any means condoning a Bible debate, nor am I saying we should start a "fight club" for the sake of debating Scripture in order to help us all recover from spiritual abuse and mind control. I'm just saying that when these debates naturally happen on this forum, it's not such a bad thing. As a matter of fact, as long as they don't get out of control like they used to, they can actually be a healthy part of our recovery. In the process of disagreeing with each other, we will learn to either disagree and still accept each other, or get mad at people and possibly leave the forum (which I have done on several occasions, as have many others here). Once we get over our disagreements and then are able to accept each other apart from our religious views, we have broken the cycle of performance-based acceptance that we were brainwashed with in our abusive churches.

Anyway, that's my opinion on this matter. Feel free to disagree with it - LOL!

:D

[mary]

Nice thread you've started here, Voyager! :)

Now, I can see even another advantage to the ideas you've set forth here. Many of us don't happen to be regularly going to a good Sunday school or Bible study right now. So where are we going to be taught? Or where are we going to discuss doctrine or beliefs or theology or whatever with our brothers and sisters in the Lord? There's still 2 Timothy 2:15 right? I don't think we're meant to just be alone and fortunately, this is the age of the Internet... And we do have this forum. And hey, I'm not going to fight with anyone and I don't expect anyone else who's here now to do it, either. (If you all can tolerate a "5-point Calvinist-with-a-heart" here, then you can tolerate anyone, right? :D :D :D )

So, why shut down any discussions such as we've had unless they're totally off the point of this forum?

Maybe "healing" would come faster and more securely for some folks here if we did model civil discussions of these kinds of things - and just always remember to be unfailingly kind.

What do you think?

mary

[QueenKnitter]

<giant bag over my little egg head>

I hope it's good. 'Course, that's probably what's gotten me into trouble. . . . People assuming that we aren't to question, and then like the little girl who says to the naked Emperor, "You don't have any clothes on!!"

But seriously, isn't that what we're supposed to do? As believers? Iron sharpens iron and all that jazz. . . .

C

[Voyager]

I can see even another advantage to the ideas you've set forth here. Many of us don't happen to be regularly going to a good Sunday school or Bible study right now. So where are we going to be taught?
Personally, I was taught more Bible in the 12 years that I attended my former church than most people are taught in four years of seminary. I think many of us know more about the Bible than we will ever nead to learn. What I didn't get a chance to do in my former church was to spread the love of Christ to others. All we did was waste our time getting taught, taught, taught - when we should have been out showing God's love to needy people!

Does spreading the Good News include arguing and debating the Bible? Do we really need any more teaching to show the love of god to those around us?

Just a little food for thought... not meant to provoke an argument.

:)

[Voyager]

What I just said in my last post didn't really come out right. Let me clarify. I don't think it's wrong to debate Scripture. I think it is good if it can be done in a civil way. It's when people get beaten with the Bible and rejected due to their beliefs that it becomes wounding and destructive. Then we have to start the healing process all over again.

Chances are we will never all believe the same way unless we get back into a church with an authoritarian dictator who tells us what and how to believe. Therefore, to be able to have relationships with people on this forum, we have to tolerate their beliefs - which probably do not mirror our own. It's either that or we reject them and kick them out of our lives.

:cool:

[QueenKnitter]

True -- It isn't about the left-brained analysis of this translation over this one.

But does debate have to be all in the head and not with the heart? Maybe it's my training and my upbringing, but I don't think we should shy away from a good rousing understanding of say, the parable of the generous employer. . . .

QK

[Doug64]

Hi all:

I haven't been here much lately. It appears that a lot has happened.

Good comments.

My story is much like Voyagers - but for a longer period of time. When we left the former church, there were those who 'advised' us about what we should do and often quoted (or misquoted) scripture to support their view.
Fortunately, none of them got too radical, nor did they drop us because we didn't always agree with them.

I think discussion might be a better word than debate. Whatever the term, it should be done with love, consideration and understanding that we aren't going to see all things the same way. Shucks, even my wife and I don't agree about everything. :)

Doug64

[mary]

I'm partial to the story about Zacchaeus in Luke 19... for more reasons than one! ;) I've climbed way more than my share of trees, store shelves, racks, bookshelves, etc. - but if I could climb one of those things to see Jesus, that would be the absolute best! :)

Well, Voyager - we can always learn from each other. Heck, I've been doing it here for the 14 months that I've been here: learning from you guys. Being beaten with the Bible and then rejected is the exact opposite of what I was talking about above.

I want to concede that I've learned something right here, from you right now: you've been SA-ed in a way that I wasn't. I will most definitely defer to your greater experience in being "dictated to," being under a very flawed and abusive system of "authority" in a church, etc., because although that was a small part of what happened to me in various churches, it wasn't the main thing that brought me here. And I need to listen to and show Christ's love to people who've been through that. I don't need to be talking about being taught - that happened to be one of the things we sorely lacked in the church I was thrown out of; there was no teaching at all because "pastor" was so lazy - but I do need to listen to other people.

Thanks for showing me this, Voyager! Valuable lesson to be learned!

mary

[Jerry]

Once we get over our disagreements and then are able to accept each other apart from our religious views, we have broken the cycle of performance-based acceptance that we were brainwashed with in our abusive churches.


I can see that on a sign over the door of our new "Cyber Church" :D Well said Voyager

[Anna Marta]

Hello All,

For me, it would be especially helpful to share the scriptures that others have found to be most meaningful to their healing process and growth toward being closer to God and others as their personal journey continues.

Rather than debating with each other about the truth or validity of the bible or specific scriptures, can we share the richness and life that particular scriptures have given to us personally.

Frankly, I don't want to get into discussions about if someone accepts or rejects the bible as inerrant. What I do care about is what has the Word of God done for you!

A chief way faith is built is through hearing.

Love
Anna Marta

[Theodora]

I'll be thinking about verses which have helped me in the past. Sadly--or perhaps "blessedly," as a Christian coming out of a liturgical church where much emphasis is on "HEARING" the word and not as much in direct study, I find that, though I DO have some Biblical knowledge, it's not at all as well-researched as some have done here....friends Jerry and Carmen, to mention just two!

How's the "Grandma/aka Nanny 911" gig going for you? I really had to smile about your adventure with recent illness of the boy in the family (and I hope you'll understand why. I don't mean to minimize the distress of all of this in any way!) You have a flair for writing up anecdotes...sort of like Erma Bombeck, if you know that name, and I THANK you for sharing something of your life with us. TREASURE these times with the family, as I know you do. (And do tell you special hubby to hang in there and wait as best he can for updates on the whole adventure when you can get to it. SUCH stories to share! )

So thankful that your granddaughter has arrived and now seems to be doing somewhat better. (My daughter-in-law and daughter will be moving back to our city within about a week or so, so I'm gearing up to be more "proactive" as I can as well....and/or as she and her family will PERMIT. May want to compare notes in that regard down the line. I'm still REALLY new at this, our son--the Marine who just left yesterday for his 3d deployment to Iraq--and his wife having had the baby Sept. 24, 2006.

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

Sorry....got sidetracked there. Your prayers appreciated (as well as any helpful verses you've found which sustain YOU!)

Love and prayers for all--

Theodora

-

Hello All,

For me, it would be especially helpful to share the scriptures that others have found to be most meaningful to their healing process and growth toward being closer to God and others as their personal journey continues.

Rather than debating with each other about the truth or validity of the bible or specific scriptures, can we share the richness and life that particular scriptures have given to us personally.

Frankly, I don't want to get into discussions about if someone accepts or rejects the bible as inerrant. What I do care about is what has the Word of God done for you!

A chief way faith is built is through hearing.

Love
Anna Marta

[hornblower]

Voyager and all,
I always think its good all of it. I learn and learn and learn when it happens. I hate it when you can think outside the box. God doesnt live in a box and we shouldnt either. After all the scriptire says 'Come let us reason together..........' and thats God inviting us to come. I love Him for it. If our God cannot take our questioning and thinking out loud what kind of a God would He be?
I have my boundaries scriptural boundaries that I set up in my own self like one of them is 'where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.'
Now freedom isnt always fun because I have to admit it feels so good to have agreements I dont like confrontation at all and I dont like to disagree it scares me every time when I do it. I always feel like ok now im going to get hit! Really! Like slapped in the mouth I see it like that but it still doesnt stop me from speaking up.
I dont know if that is a victim mentality or not but its the way I am and always have been.
This is America. People died here and there for this freedom we have. We all need to use it because if you dont use it you loose it thats what I think God helped do here because god is not controlling He is a lover! He loves us to be free and to come to Him freely not because we HAVE too.
I love you Voyager. I dont agree with you on everything but I love the way you are so free and so well here and approachable, you know what I mean. Hey, I know about the fights believe me I was here before the spiritual abuse forum so I know.
When we discuss things it jells me in what i believe and what is right and wrong in my book. My book still isnt Gods book. Im by far not perfect. But I greww up debating and will always debate thats just me maybe its not all good, I dont know but neverthe less God is so much more than I am so much bigger than our dos and donts...........if He can handle us being ourselfes why shouldnt I handle it and with calmness and peace too thats my goal to get over the fear and to realise He loves everyone just the way they are.

I have some very nasty words for those pastors that would insist on ppl being a certain way.........you know I have never really belonged to a church like that not really. Still they all have their limits and I dont want to have limits......God told me one time that he doesnt live in a building made with hands.........I believe Him........I think you do too. We agree!

[hornblower]

Hello All,

For me, it would be especially helpful to share the scriptures that others have found to be most meaningful to their healing process and growth toward being closer to God and others as their personal journey continues.

Rather than debating with each other about the truth or validity of the bible or specific scriptures, can we share the richness and life that particular scriptures have given to us personally.

Frankly, I don't want to get into discussions about if someone accepts or rejects the bible as inerrant. What I do care about is what has the Word of God done for you!

A chief way faith is built is through hearing.

Love
Anna Marta

I love this anna marta, thats good. I have to admit the debate over whether the bible is really the word of God or not kind of is upsetting to me I feel very confused and hurt about it and i try to understand others on these points but???????????????????
My Mom would often question so many things and she was so painfully shy but she had such huge doubts about god but then believed the gospel just because........????? I never understood how she could be this way. Different folks different strokes. Me? Ive got to know and know and know.........

This is the verse that has always kept me centeered on every matter in heaven and on the earth. The one where Peter tells jesus he believes that He is the real Son of God. Why do you believe that I am telling you the truth so to speak Jesus answered to Peter?
Because You are the only One that comes to us with the message of eternal life.
To me its like if it all depoends on me making it to a heaven on my own merits im going to fail. I dont see myself as being a bad person I never have really seen myself that way. What I do know about myself is that if I had to be like some people very disciplined very constant very anything I wont make it. If i had to wear a veil or be submissive to my husband in any certain way I would end up killing myself. I just cannot follow a law unless its inside of me know what I mean?
So unless God does it for me Im done for in this life for sure.
That one scripture says it all for me. Its what I say to myself when all else escapes me and I dont believe any longer and I feel like i cant go on. It gives me such rest.

[Ladybug]

I'm all for teaching to a certain degree. A sponge can only absorb so much...
Scripture states that we are to be "doers of the Word." as well as hearing it.

I think the best way for me to show God's love to others, is to be friendly when I'm out and about at the fitness center or at Wal-mart. It maybe just saying "Hi" to someone.

I feel that as the Lord brings people into my life, it means to build a relationship with them first, and then sharing on a deeper level the love of Christ. In the building of a relationship, I can still be demonstrating to them the love of God. If someone is sick, take them soup, offer to pick up groceries if needed....

I like the way I have seen this taught and carried out at the church I'm presently attending.

The former church was more focused on evangelism. I'm all for this, but not in the way that it does more harm. I'd rather get to know the person and gain their trust and respect and then as the Lord leads. Witness to them.

I believe that once someone comes to know the Lord, then there needs to be discipleship. Help them to become established in their relationship with the Lord. It's not all Salvation messages, there needs to be a balance.

I'm so thankful for the Lord leading me to where I attend church, now. The Pastor is doing a series of messages on emotional wholeness as a church.

Then the leadership has Encounters. This is a weekend where you go and encounter the Lord. It maybe processing things from the past. However, the Lord uses that weekend, it's a tremendous time. The one I went on, helped me to feel more freer in my walk with the Lord. To be able to accept more of His love for me.

I had not been in a church where the leadership focused on emotional wholeness. That they wanted the congregation to be able to grow in their walk with the Lord.

I'm seeing the Lord working within me and continuing to heal areas. Again, I'm more than thankful for this church.

Anyhow for what this is worth, again thanks for listening. I welcome your feedback & comments.:)

[Ladybug]

I've read the rest of the comments on sharing scripture that has helped in our own healing and recovery.

Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you." Declares the Lord,"plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future."

This is one I held on to while going through the cancer & chemo and then while going through counseling sessions.

There were times when I didn't know, but yet I knew the Lord knew the plans He has for me. This has kept me going.

I'm in remission from the cancer and that's another story....

Even when considering what church to attend after graduating from rehab. The Lord has lead me each step of the way.

I look forward to hearing from you and the verses that helped you the most.

[SpinningHead]

Hi all,

I'm just stepping for a moment and then I need to go right back into my own head to deal with this move and transition but just wanted to throw in my own personal opinion...can't stress personal enough. This is a very good post BTW.

Basically...I don't care too much if anyone agrees or disagrees with me on a personal level. The agreement/disagreement doesn't define my salvation or relationship with God. I know my intentions/heart and I believe God does too. I would expect/hope that none of you takes to heart any of my writings b/c it doesn't define your salvation/relationship w/ God either. That said...

I do care about what everyone writes...because I weigh it against what I currently know to be true. Quite often I change my mind or put what I thought I knew for sure in question. Othertimes someone's opinion/beliefs just validates what I know. Either way, it's still a conundrum in my own head that really doesn't involve anyone else and it doesn't require me going all "preacher" on anyone either.

Also, if someone writes something I don't agree with...really, so what?
I try to be careful and not make the mistake of defining the author by this one disagreeable post. That just gets in the way of being open minded about that person's other postings and positive things they'll put out there.

When a disagreement gets personal and someone is threatening another person's salvation over this or that belief...that is what I have no tolerance for.

Anyways...good post! Back into my head to head home & pack some more boxes.

[Voyager]

When a disagreement gets personal and someone is threatening another person's salvation over this or that belief...that is what I have no tolerance for.
I agree 100% with that statement SH. This type of thing is more painful to me than whether or not someone believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God (which is common when people have been abused with the Bible - they are sometimes so confused that they don't know what to believe anymore). So many of us had our salvations threatened during our former spiritually abusive experiences, and this was much more abusive than a disagreement over Scripture.

Personally, I've never really felt like God was threatening to kick me out of His life. What has hurt the most is when people threaten to kick me out of their lives (or go beyond threats and actually do it) due to what I do or don't believe. It's bad enough to suffer rejection in life due to mistakes that you make (or childhood rejection and/or abandonment), but to lose people that you care for over a disagreement on doctrinal issues - that has been one of the most painful things I have ever had to endure in my life. I lost 450 people in one day over this. These people were the only family I had known for 12 long years, and when I decided that I could no longer deal with the way the pastor was mis-interpreting the Bible in order to abuse and manipulate people, they gave me the left foot of fellowship. Needless to say, when I see this type of rejection occur against other forum members or myself, I still get triggered. But, I am learning how to deal with it without going on "full tilt".

:cool:

[Elisabeth]

Wow, this thread "triggered" me, especially the line about how we will not agree on everything unless we get into another church where the pastor dictates what we believe. It surprised me that it triggered me, because I usually think of the spiritual abuse I endured in terms of the sexual abuse I endured at the hands of that pastor. But the truth is, that pastor totally dictated what we were to believe. If anyone believed differently from the pastor, they were straying from the truth. Of course, his church was "special"; better than any other chuch around. This from a man who used my unquestioning following of him to get me into bed.

[Jerry]

This from a man who used my unquestioning following of him to get me into bed.

John 11 vs. 35