Hi. I'm in process, I guess.

[QueenKnitter]

:) Hey everyone! Slowly tip-toeing out from lurkdom. . . .

I'm in the middle of a difficult situation at work (Christian ministy). I am trying to set boundaries with my boss, but he just continues the passive-aggressive responses. Last fall, he ambushed me with my immediate supervisor, and I left feeling so very . . . . well, spanked. :mad: I realized, "Ew -- that is icky. I don't like that feeling at all." After years in my parents' loving home and with my DH's mutual respect, I don't ever remember feeling like that before. :(

I thought it was all over. I thought he had had his power trip and was done. Wrongorino! He's started up again, so I took it to his supervisor. I know that that's going to be the beginning of a very long process of discussion after discussion after discussion. I do know that God has put me in this situation to test the limits. I don't believe God has written Ichabod on the door of this place -- yet.

I just . . . I don't know what to say. This feels so icky. I hate the ludicrous idea that "Well, he's your boss. You do whatever he says." Do they not hear how awful that sounds?

I look at the people around me, and I want to just cry. They actually *look* burdened. You can see the weight on their backs. I sat next to my immediate supervisor during a recent sermon -- a sermon I remember from 20 years ago -- that amounted to, "You depressed? Well, knock it off! Be cheerful!!!" And I could feel him fidgeting and restless until he started writing the outline down. I want to just hug him and say, "Honey, I know you're depressed. Oh . . . that's not gonna fix it."

Maybe I don't belong here at all anymore. <shrug> I've heard rumors about me -- that I'm leaving. I dunno. . . . I see evidence of my ministry every day. I want to say, "I'm not here to serve my boss. I'm here to serve Christ! There's a difference."

Anyway, I don't know what the next few months will look like. I can feel the spiritual warfare. Please join me in praying. I'd love to see God transform this place into a haven of Grace. Only He can do it. And I think I'm ticking Satan off because I've been praying that for a year now.

Thanks.

QK

[Voyager]

In my experience, change usually has to come from the top down in these type of authoritarian churches. If someone attempts to bring it from the bottom up, it usually gets squashed.

It's so sad to see people like yourself who expect the leadership of their church to embrace what is good, when more times than not they reject it. If someone tries to expose the problem - they become the problem. Instead of focusing on the real problems and changing them, they focus on the person who exposes the problem. I have seen people demonized, blacklisted, excommunicated, etc., for doing what you are attempting to do. It happened to me. So, be ready for a battle. I hope I am wrong. If I am and they embrace what you have to say, your situation will be a rarity.

We are here to support you, regardless of what happens. I admire your standing up for what is right. I did the same thing as you are doing, and I paid the price eight years ago. It was not an easy thing to do, but I do not regret what I did. Welcome to the forum!

:cool:

[Jerry]

Dear QK,,,,,
Welcome :D It looks like all you can do your doing.You mention "Passive/Aggressive" behavior in your post...I'll tell ya,contending with a passive/aggressive is like chasing the wind,,,,,,if you win you loose if you loose you loose....They are very difficult people to deal with ;) Be careful .
Love Jerry

[Janice]

welcome to the forum. will be praying

[QueenKnitter]

Thanks everyone.

It's kinda weird how my attempts at being excrutiatingly discrete with details in here :o are forcing to me to identify the emotions themselves. I guess that's good.

My husband and I have devoted our lives to this ministry. We are blessed because for forever we've realized that this is not the beginning and end of God's world. The all-encompassing quality that gets communicated -- well, we can see through that. And there have been days when I've fantasized about being a totally free agent. :D

Anyway, thanks.

QK

[InTheory]

Bless you, Queen!

So sorry you're having a difficult time. :(

Sounds like you're dealing with it the best (and most healthy) way possible.

Peace!

-Dan

[QueenKnitter]

I am blessed with a really wonderfully supportive family. :) My mom has giggled about this, "That's my daughter. You're just like your dad." My teenage niece does similar resistant things. I think it's in our blood.

My dad tells the story of visiting Europe when he was five (circa 1928). His mom had to visit a government office there, and a lady dressed all in black was weeping in the waiting area. She asked her what was wrong, and the woman explained that her whole estate was wrapped up in legal red tape since her husband died. That day was the last day she could get the situation taken care of before she lost the whole farm. She had come every single day for a month, but the clerks wouldn't wait on her. She wasn't important to them.

My grandma, with a little American spirit in her as well as our family pluck, got pushy and yelled at the men. "Look here! You help this woman right now, do you understand?" And she wouldn't leave until it was done.

:D Good ol' Grandma. Sigh. . . . I'm doing the same thing here. Standing up for the little guy that doesn't have the courage to do it.

Anyway, just had to gush and remember. There's something resistant about my genes. Sometimes I think God's made me, given me my training, brought me through the hardest of times, just for this event.

QK

[mary]

Welcome here, QK! :)

That's quite a story about your grandmother... You're so fortunate and blessed to have come from such a heritage and home!

We'll all pray about your situation. What a bummer; what a boss - in a Christian ministry, yet. :( I'm so sorry to read of your situation... I've worked for a host of crummy, demeaning, head-busting bosses - but they were all "worldly" attorneys and so when it happened the last few times (after I got born again), I didn't care anymore. But when it happens at the hands of "a brother," it must hurt quite a lot! :( :(

Can I ask you about your screen name? You knit, right? I'm a needle - as opposed to shuttle - tatter myself and I'm interested in all forms of needle art...

Once again, welcome - we're glad you found us; you'll find help and encouragement and empathy here - and we're at your service! ;)

mary

[QueenKnitter]

Needle tatting? :cool: Very, very cool. I've tried to do shuttle tatting, but my friend is the whiz.

I'm a knitter. Good therapy. ;) It just feels good to think about pretty lace or cables. Ah . . . . like a good cup of coffee.

:) Nice to meet you!

C

[mary]

C./QK,

Thanks! Shuttle-tatting, I tried and, well, for me, needle-tatting is just much faster. I donated some of my larger and more complicated lace pieces (i.e., table-toppers, etc.); they were auctioned off in charity auctions and they brought some nice profits for the charities. Some of the smaller auctioned pieces were mounted on velvet or satin by their purchasers, I found out later, framed in pretty frames and people hung them on their dining room walls... I was humbled by that.

I still don't crochet, but a friend is going to teach me. She looked at my tatting and said that if I could teach myself to do that, then certainly I could crochet. But I don't "get" the patterns! I hope she can help; maybe I have a glitch in my brain on that or something.

This is very good therapy, you're right. It helps take your mind off of things you'd be better off not thinking about. Knitting, tatting... it's fun, inexpensive and people always like the results. If I want to give someone a special gift, I tat something for them. Surprisingly, some men have even asked me for tatted things... I make thick, grosgrain-ribboned black or brown bookmarks for them.

mary

[hornblower]

Welcome to the forum queen knitter. Im trying to teach myself crochet, not doing very well but I come from a long line of crocheters and lace tatters Mary so I have an inheritance im depending on.
About youir situation Id have to agrree with Voyager that most of the time these things these efforts of ours to stand strong are met with much persecution. I too hope Im wrong but dont be surprised if things take a very bad turn and always feel like you have a good home here. I think that power corrupts. Theres power temptations at the top so theres corruption too. They often forget that Jesus came as a servant and washed the disciples feet and we are commanded to do the same. Ive only had one Pastor in one itsy bitsy tiny church that was like this and has this kind of humility.
I would like to sahre a thought with you though about our sufferings in these situations.
Once long ago I had to stand for a simple thing a small thing to these men that ran the place all of the elders and pastors in a huge church. One of the elders came to me and told me they had all gotten together and decided that I should do such and such and so and so. This came from the top the very top. It meant my job my church and what was even more important to me it meant my kids education since they both went to that school there. I cried out to God about this whole situation and what they were making me do because I knew in my heart of hearts it was wrong ..........very wrong.

The Lord told me to wait and I would have my answer from the principal himself the same man that was an elder and had told me to do this very thing. The next morning in school he taught from the bible a little known scripture about Davids men. There was one of these men that stood on a hill of lentils and fought and killed hundreds of men, just for that little piece of land of lentils. (???) I know strange isnt it? But true nevertheless. He said sometimes there will be times that you are standing for something so small in others peoples eyes, so small its like just a hill of lentils, but its yours and its important to you. Fight for all youve got for that little thing.

The starnge thing was I had found a bag of lentils in my cabinet and I dont know to this day how to cook lentils in fact Ive never even eaten lentils. When I saw that bag of lentils I asked God......'where did that come from?' 'I know I didnt buy it because I dont know how to cook them?'
Of course the next thing I thought was why am I asking god this question why would He care about lentils? Little dfid I know anbout this elder teaching this particular day. Right then I had my answer from the Lord I knew what I had to do I had to stand against all of those men for what I believed in so I told my boss the prinicipal of that school the elder of that church go back and tell all of them "I WONT DO IT"

I didnt do it and it was super embarassing to them but god made itr right for me. They of course never forgot it but where i often went wrong is in not remembering that lesson, that God will always stick by me when Im right and not sticking up for and believing in my own ministry and for what was right.
Still though here is what I believe in my heart..........what I did made a huge difference in eternity. Ok its just 'lentils' but its important to me and if its important to me it just might be important in the scope of things to God too. He never lets our fight go on without it making a difference.

We dont fight against just flesh and blood but against powers and principalities of darkness in high places.

Ill be praying for you my knitting friend. Yes it is just like a cup of coffee isnt it?

[QueenKnitter]

Wow, hornblower! Lentils. :D That's cool. I'll have to hunt down that passage.

So funny. Good funny, but funny. This current fight is over lentils. It's small. I mean, it's not like a big money-maker or a ground-shaking thing or whatever. It's small and it's just mine. I bathed the whole thing in prayer -- telling God to destroy it at every step if it wasn't a good thing. He just kept pushing it along. Stirring my lentils. ;) And now I have to defend it. It's a crisis point for the organization. The lentils will be cooked -- in November, btw -- but will this organization cast my dish aside or enjoy it with me? I was trained in cooking just these lentils. That's why I'm here. That's my ministry.

Gotta go find that passage. . . . thanks!!

qk

[hornblower]

I dont remember where it is there are three men that David has that fight this way for him. Its just one verse even I think but it sure meant a lot to me. u r so welcome friend. keep on truckin God sees us God knows what our fight is about, its His heart beating inside of us thats what i believe.

[QueenKnitter]

2 Samuel 23:11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%2023:11-12;&version=31;). :D

[QueenKnitter]

i'm having a fit.

i just looked at my statcounter on my blog. someone at my employer's spent 14 lousy hours on my blog. Sheesh. It's not THAT interesting people! Recipes and snapshots?

Brother.

QK

[Carmen]

Welcome QueenKnitter. :)

I've been mobbed at work before, but it seems so much more tragic to me that this could happen to someone at church.

Controlling People by Patricia Evans has a lot of insight, I think, on how some people feel a need or compulsion to control others - and may not even be conscious of it. She describes key elements of controlling situations, from bullying to dictatorships. That book helped me understand a current domestic situation I am in.

There comes a point where forgiving and forgetting become futile. Now I just forgive, but won't forget. If I forget I will be setting myself up for more abuse. Abusers like their victims to "forget" so that they can continue. Maybe the pressure is on because you won't forget.

There are people that don't approve of my blog either. I may end up going to a church where one pastor sympathizes with me and acknowledges the spiritual abuse I went through, but doesn't approve of my website that includes a detailed article about the abuse. I guess I will have to jump that hurdle when I come to it, but I wonder if and how he may go about telling me to change my website or even give it up. He and others in similar groups seem to think that my account of SA is gossip. I think that if no one ever spoke of it though, or gave examples from their own lives, how would people in similar situations know they should not accept abuse and know that they should defend themselves? I think that a general description of something may not be enough for understanding. Many people like myself need to have details to compare things to before they realize the gravity of their situations.

[QueenKnitter]

Oooo -- Carmen. Thanks for the book recommend. I am a tad addicted to books. :o

Thing is? It's not like I'm talking about abuse on my blog. It's not like I'm naming names on my blog. I'm just TALKING on my blog. I know it's gonna come up and it's gonna come up this week. I think God had me see that so when they say "We've been reading your blog," I can say, "Yes. I know you have." Just to take the wind out of their sails.

Honest people. It's got my share of vents. But WHO CARES? I gush about my children. A new recipe. A verse I found or a poem I just remembered.

I woke up with the thought, "What are YOU all trying to hide so frantically? I mean, you think I have something to hide, but clearly YOU ALL have some deep dark secret that you think I'm going to reveal. What's up?"

Ack. Just had to vent. Off to look up that book. . . .

Thanks, Carmen. (((HUGS)))

QK

[SpinningHead]

Hi QK,

Sorry I'm so late in welcoming you to the forum...spent the weekend packing. So WELCOME! to the forum! You've found the right place!!

I had to quote Voyager when he said...
If someone tries to expose the problem - they become the problem. Instead of focusing on the real problems and changing them, they focus on the person who exposes the problem. I have seen people demonized, blacklisted, excommunicated, etc., for doing what you are attempting to do. It happened to me. So, be ready for a battle.
:cool:

Demonization is exactly what happened to hubby and I when we tried to bring to the leadership's attention the misspending of $$ in the building project the church was undergoing. (We were heavily involved in the project and qualified to have been so.)

I heard a quote while watching Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" over the weekend that wicked jumped out at me...

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his NOT understanding it" ~Upton Sinclair

That was exactly how I felt about our leadership. If they had to admit that they understood what was going on, and did nothing about it/condoned it (for appearances sake IMO! :mad: ) then it becomes a moral/ethical issue that they have to admit to...which could lead to them being fired for missappropriating funds.

That's just a bit of my story but I related to what you wrote. Watch out when pointing out to leadership when their top boys aren't playing nice. If they're not in a position to admit there's issue that need real addressing, they will turn on you and fiercely...why? because they'll figure you're easier to control then messing with the leadership network that they might not want to admit is broken. They won't meet and say we need to deal with so-n-so...they'll meet and discuss how far you're prepared to take this and what will need to happen to pacify you w/out rocking the boat. :mad:

Be careful and so glad you found us!! This place has been a tremendous support for me.

[Elisabeth]

Why can't people like your boss realize that Christian ministry is not about fighting? Jeez, I read what you wrote through this thread, and most, but not all, the responses, and I got mad!:mad: Some Christians in leadership positions think it's all about them, but it's not; it's all about Jesus! I hope things go better for you, Queen Knitter (I like the Barbie doll.) Maybe your boss will get his a-- fired! Hang in there.

[QueenKnitter]

Thanks you all. I'm meeting with my boss's boss on Friday. This man and I have been friends a long, long time. At the very least, I know he'll be direct with me. And I can at least meet that head-on than guess about assive-aggressiveness.

I have to prepare for that meeting. Get my ducks in a row. This man will want specific descriptions.

It's just . . . I did something. Something good and something honorable and something public and something that people should be saying, "Hey -- WOW! Congrats!! That's great!" But all I'm getting is suspicious looks and "i want to caution you against doing that. I mean, we like you and your husband, but there's only so far you can stretch the limits." Ooooo-kay. So I said, "Hey -- you wanna see it?" "Oh no, no, no, no. . . . Uh. We just don't want people to think ill of [organization's name]."

Now see. There was no direct *order.* There was nothing but "Be cautious." Yeah. I am cautious. If you didn't want me to do it, why weren't you clear?

Ooooooo-kay! Because we talk in CODE. Yes, yes, yes. I understand that now. And when you told my little friends "You don't want to be seen in a group with her. I would caution you. . . ." and they haven't spoken to me since. Now, how did THAT build up the body of Christ?

Ack. Sorry. Venting. I think that the boss's boss is going to say, "How can we fix this?" And I'm going to say:

1) By always stating the intended topic of a meeting.
2) By making amends and clearing up my name with those two friends.

See -- here's something else. For YEARS now, this boss has been saying, "Go talk to so-n-so. If you have a problem, go talk to her/him." And you know what? Generally that's been pretty good advice, and I've done it EVERY SINGLE TIME! EVERY SINGLE TIME. And then as of late, I get called in to his office, and he's telling me all these complaints about *me*. How come NO ONE is coming to me? How come?

It hit me. Because this "go to that person" strategy is not intended to restore fellowship (as Christ and Paul argued). No, this "go to that person" is meant as silencing and punishment. I'm just naive enough to take things at face value. I'VE MISSED THE CODE ALL THIS TIME!

:rolleyes: Sheesh. Just had to vent somemore. Ack. Gotta run.

Thanks for listening.

QK

[QueenKnitter]

I dont remember where it is there are three men that David has that fight this way for him. Its just one verse even I think but it sure meant a lot to me. u r so welcome friend. keep on truckin God sees us God knows what our fight is about, its His heart beating inside of us thats what i believe.

We're having lentils tonight in honor of this. This is my Ebenezer! :D

Qk

[QueenKnitter]

Hey you all! I know that I kinda disappeared. Too much was going on. I just snuck away from here for awhile -- hoping that I didn't need the support.

It's all about to end. We have a big pow-wow on Friday the 13th. And I think that that's when we'll either be fired or we'll quit soon after. :( We've been ministering here for 17 years. The abuse got too much. We became the brunt of it. After the shunning and now the silencing, I need to be free.

Why? Because we disagreed with a particularly powerful and mistaken man. The men over him tried to smooth things over by saying that we all agree, right? So they asked us to write a statement on our position. We did, and they "have concerns." So here we are -- going to be silenced, at the very least, for having an opinion.

It's also just an emotional week. So I'm a little tender. My daughter was born still 6 years ago on Saturday. The fireworks always make me very sentimental. Our 17th wedding anniversary is tomorrow. Sigh. . . . So much going on.

QK

[Elisabeth]

Hey you all! I know that I kinda disappeared. Too much was going on. I just snuck away from here for awhile -- hoping that I didn't need the support.

It's all about to end. We have a big pow-wow on Friday the 13th. And I think that that's when we'll either be fired or we'll quit soon after. :( We've been ministering here for 17 years. The abuse got too much. We became the brunt of it. After the shunning and now the silencing, I need to be free.

Why? Because we disagreed with a particularly powerful and mistaken man. The men over him tried to smooth things over by saying that we all agree, right? So they asked us to write a statement on our position. We did, and they "have concerns." So here we are -- going to be silenced, at the very least, for having an opinion.

It's also just an emotional week. So I'm a little tender. My daughter was born still 6 years ago on Saturday. The fireworks always make me very sentimental. Our 17th wedding anniversary is tomorrow. Sigh. . . . So much going on.

QK

Sorry about your baby. And so close to your anniversary, too.

The church is supposed to be where people can heal and be ministered to. Some churches, and some people in churches are worse than "the world." :mad: But that's why we're all here.

Come here when you can! :D We're always here to listen, but I know this site can be triggering, too.

[Ladybug]

QuickKnitter,

Will be praying for you and welcome to the forumn. I know you will find support and encouragement here. :)

[QueenKnitter]

I'm just gonna add to this one because . . . well, it's more tidy.

Well, it flat-out happened. When the #1 guy spiritually abuses you -- AFTER YOU HAD GIVEN HIM THE SPIRITUAL ABUSE BOOK A YEAR AGO :eek: -- there ain't much more you can do. It was surreal when he actually took out God's Holy Word to whack me over the head to get me to shut up.

A friend has recently said to me that the whole point of Christ and Paul's descriptions about how the church should interact is that God says, "Don't mess with My kids. Even if you're one of my kids, don't mess with My kids."

And I think I've seen it now. God's written Ichabod on the door. The glory is gone.