speaking in tongues

[Erin]

I want to start by saying that I am not saying anything against speaking in tongues. If you do, I say more power to you. However, I personally can't stand the sound of it. Ever since I was kid it made me uncomfortable. I just never got into all that stuff and so as a result was made to feel like I must not be a real Christian. The truth is all that speaking in tongues, prophesy stuff made me nervous because I was sure God was going to tell the pastor something really horrible about me. Anyway...the reason I'm posting this is not because I've been around people doing this. You're going to laugh...it's because my son, who is 8, thinks it's funny to pretend like he is speaking another language. He used to tell me he was speaking Spanish! He did it again last night and I told him to stop. He said "I'm not saying a bad word mom." I told him I knew that; I just don't want him to do it. He asked why, and I said because it reminds me of something I don't like. Isn't that crazy? But it just makes my skin crawl everytime he does it. I just want to get away from him because I start to panic inside.
Ugh...I just needed to tell someone who wouldn't laugh at me...thanks.

Erin

[Voyager]

I used to be into speaking in tongues, but I haven't done it since I left the chruch/cult I was in over eight years ago. I personally see no need for it, but if someone wants to do it, I have no problem with it. Like yourself, it does sound annoying to me too - but I think that's just because it brings back memories of the church/cult I was in. However, I haven't heard it in over six years since I stopped going to church - so it's no longer an issue to me at all.

:cool:

[butterfly]

I understand how you feel Erin.

I didn"t go to a church that did that stuff but I had a few friends and family who were into it.

It creeped me out.!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: the way they did things.

A friend would pray with me sometimes. I told her no tongues if you do I will not pray with you ever again. She didn"t thank God.


I beleave those gifts are given by the Lord but not to everyone.

Those wackey family members would scare me. They were weird, scary and all messed up.

If I heard anybody doing that I sure would run the other way.

I do understand your son playing as kids do . I know how scary the trigger is for you.

butterfly shirley

[riverdove]

Glad you brought this up as I have an immediate concern
for a close relative of mine who has recently been
involved with a charismatic church that preaches the prosperity
gospel, but she kept praising the preacher saying that he's a
godly man. She has also recently spoken in tongues and I've
been weary for her. I want to be sensitive to people who believe
in speaking in tongues, but for those who have been
involved in the movement and have left, I would like to learn
of the reasons and maybe warn her before she becomes
too entrenched in it. Some years ago, John McArthur wrote a
book, "Charismatic Chaos." I'm looking for some
books that might be helpful.

[hornblower]

I do speak in tongues. I have ever since I had my initial experience thirty years ago with Jesus. It just happened to me and I struglled with it at first but not since then. No christian was within miles of me when it happened nobody told me about it nothing execept reading the bible and saying back to God 'whats this about?' Thats what Ive always done and always will. It makes no difference whatsoever to me whether anyone speaks in tongues or not. I pray this way when it feels right thats all or when I dont know whats going on spiritually which is often. I pray for others this way because basically I dont think I know whats best for me or for others so I figure God does know and its His gift I certainly dont understand it. Im thankful for it. Sometimes I get to thinking Im crazy and its for sure I sound like it when I am doing that speaking in tongues, after all it is weird lets be honest about it. I started out this way it happened to me before i ever even stepped into a silly church so Ive learned to accept that if im nuts then so what? My kids used to speak in toungues when they were little, just a few words but they think my whole experience is strange I guess so they dont any more. My husband is the same way about it.
I dont for the life of me understand what all of the commotion is about? The gifts are there for us if we want them or not? Thats the way I see it. Its up to the individual. I dont think we will need them in heaven anyway but maybe so I dont know when we get there we will all understand all of this stuff I think. I have one friend that speaks in tongues when we both pray for people or our own needs. Its fun to have God speak to us and show us things but I dont like hang my hat on any of this stuff because it can be misused so easily I think.
For me whats wrong with the charismatic movenmenet is the same thing that is wrong everywhere in every church and that is a lacvk of true love and commitment and an acceptance of people where they are at which Jesus is definitely all about that so anyway...........my two cents worth or one cent. Id like to share though that I have seen people in a little room crying because they couldnt speak in tongues. Now that is just sad. Like its like that song by JANICE joplin...........'Lord wont you give me a mercedes benz my friends all have porshes I must make amends'..........that last church I was in......they were probably all into that stuff........that 'having the gifts of the spirit makes you somebody'..........no it doesnt! You are somebody PERIOD! God loves us its not about having stuff..........not even gifts of the spirit. People can be idiots!
My experience..........the closer you get to God ...........the less you know and the less you are..........its about being humble...........not feeling bad about yourself I dont mean that and I do have that problem I know to the point that Im a weight you know? I hate that about me too..........oh gosh. But anyway to me tongues are a prayer language its between God and myself its nobody elses business. Im not ashamed of it but Im not proud either. Im not going to hide it though...................do you blame me? My Mom and I went round and round about this because she went to a traditional southern babtist church and they were teaching that you cannot speak in tongues any more that the gift went away.............nope it didnt not as far as im concerned..........she didnt want to do it but she did want a deeper relationship with the Lord so she did want the baptism when I read that to her in the bible. My husband and I prayed for her to receive the baptism ok? Hey it says it so I figure its there for whoever wants it? If youve got a different way of looking at the whole thing thats cool Gods with you too right? Anyway bless her heart she began witnessing to people and becoming more bold with people about her beliefs. You cannot imagine how shy my mother was. It really helped her.
Gods in the business of helping us isnt He? If you dont like speaking in tongues I dont blame you, it sounds kind of weird but I do. Ive always liked weird so ??????? Go figure? Are you going to abandon me?
Get in line..................
The people at that church most of them Im sure spoke in tongues I guess I dont know. I dont like movements or divisions between anybody but I am going to ask God to give me everything I can possibly have..........I wanted it all.
If its not real ???????? sue me. Maybe somebody should talk to Paul and Jesus about it

[Hope 98]

Y'know - I suspect that "speaking in tongues" is the most easily abused gift of the spirit.

I do understand the uneasiness that people are expressing and I appreciate that no one is insisting that there is no such thing.

I HATE it when people push that kind of stuff on others - the tongues, the falling down, the obsession with prophecy, and so on...

But I've seem those things when they're real too.

One of the most significant things anyone ever told me was this.

"Follow Jesus. Don't follow Paul, a pastor, or anyone claiming to be a leader. Just follow Jesus and you will be surprised where He leads you."

Nearly 10 years later, I've found it to be true.

[hornblower]

Oh ok also I did speak in tongues when I was little too. This is the main reason I still do it. I went to my Mothers church where believe me speaking in tongues is a big time nono. It was like i said a babtist church down here in the south and they dont believe in speaking in tongues. Anyway when I was nine I went down the isle and accpeted Jesus as my savior not really ever understanding why or what I was doing I just wanted Him.........? After I was water baptised I started speaking in tongues a lot. As well as seeing Jesus. Talking to Jesus and experiencing little miracles. It freaked my parents out what was happening to me especially my Dad because he didnt believe. Im sorry that all of this is upsetting you but I really feel for your poor son. Suppose this is real?
My aunt was a universalist so she set me straight............yeah real straight. Straight to hell and back. I left my sweet Jesus and all of my little bity faith in supernatural things. She told me that God is alight beam not a person at all, gee He looked like what a Daddy should look like but yeah I was just a stupid kid what did I know?

You know what freaks people out? Its not in their book of things they can understand.
oh well. do what you want to do its your kid not mine. Id he was mine I would hug him and tell him he is speaking to God.........bless his heart. All of these sad years this is the first time anyone has ever told me about a child being like me. All of these hundreds of kids I have loved and none of them. Not one. Not that I could say anything to them dont want to freak anybody out you know might get sued or something.
Sorry this is a sore subject for me too a very sad one for me it sort of ruined my life that poor silly aunt and my sad mom that never told me a thing about god because she was so scared too.
I dont expect anyone to understand. Im sorry if Ive upset you with this but you know its like I dont belong anywhere. It hurts me about your little boy.

[overcomer]

well i guess i have to say i'd been skeptical about speaking in tongues throughout my life. then a few years ago, two of my friends were given that gift on the same evening. they kept it to themselves for a good while, then told just a few friends. weeks later, as i overheard them praying in a semi-private setting, to hear it - in what little logical sense i have, i knew that language couldn't come physically-naturally. it was like a loosening of their tongue - that's the best that i can describe it, to hear it, and then later to experience it, just when i needed Him most. sometimes i wonder if that spirit-speak is within us all, but the gift is in the loosening of it, the freeing of the gift to be experienced. the same Holy Spirit lives in those of us who've accepted Christ, and the gift of spirit-speak would be the overflow of Him overcoming this shell.
heard a preacher one time say just fervently pray over and over and you'll probably end up speaking in tongues. heard another say it is both guided by you and by the spirit, that you begin it manually and He begins speaking.

i don't know if either is true or not, as my loosening came as i was singing. and i was suprised by it. really surprised. started quietly crying as the flow continued. wasn't scary, wasn't weird, was several languages, could recognize a few of the words actually. would gently try to guide the words a few times, and could not. the language already had direction.
can i just start it anytime? no. there seems to be a time for this, and usually i am alone when speaking this language. He draws me close with this.
while gift is flowing, do i ever desire it to stop? no, because there is peace.
by using this gift, God has stopped pains in my chest, God has healed tension in my soul, God has assured me of things i cannot discuss. He has brought a calm to my spirit, and i have to say it has been healthy and good for me.
In chaos and turmoils of this world, He has helped me even just a little more and brought me closer to His quiet calm.
notice it is His quiet calm, not anything of my own, i can't claim it as in my flesh, where no good thing dwells. it's when my spirit is aligned with His spirit in a blessed binding, and He speaks His words and I don't know what they are, but i just try to trust and let Him loose what He wills in me.

[Janice]

I've spoken in tongues. I've fallen down slain in the spirit. I've also been given the gifts of discernment and interpretation of tongues.

My opinion only here....It is all VERY REAL. Janice could NOT do any of this by herself. It is definately a super-natural experience.

I understand the uncomfortablness though. After being abused by our spiritual leaders it is very hard not to be triggered.

But God is faithful. ;)

[Jesus Loves Me]

hornblower,

I received the gift of tongues similar to the way you did. I remember hearing my older cousin pray in tongues so when I was alone with God praying I was talking to him about it, I do that a lot, just talk to him like he is right next to me. I told him that I would like to be able to do that and then I felt a fire go through my whole body, my heart started beating really fast and I prayed in tongues, it sounded like baby talk at first and then it changed and I prayed for hours..no one was around when it happened, it was just me and God. I pray in tongues all the time, sometimes I feel a heaviness and the only thing that will make it go away is praying in tongues. My daughter also prays in tongues, not a lot but every once in a while I will look over at her during church and I will see her eyes closed and see her praying in tongues, she started doing that when she was 6 years old.

The bible says "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Sometimes when I pray in tongues I cry and cry and pray and pray and ...., I don't know, it's hard to explain but I am thankful for the gift, I really am and I wish that everyone had it cause I know how it helps me so I want everyone to receive the same help. I understand that it is a trigger for some people and I feel bad about that. I totally understand triggers, I am struggling with a few myself...

[abbey]

My leader had this gift and I believe it was totally a reality. He layed hands on me, spoke in tounges and then I was filled with intense power, Love, joy. I was filled with God and it all was good.

However, I am indeed triggered by this now. I have no use for charasmatics, they were my abusers. Im on a yahoo forum for Ex charasmatics and am relating bigtime with others there.

Theres too much emphasis on "powers," prophecy and tounges. Im more triggered by prophecy. I simply cannot trust what someone says. The woman that did this anyhow, was very odd and dysfuntional. Obsessed with God at the expense of others. Very unbalanced IMO.

God is definitely number one! But shoot me if I use fear, guilt and intimadation to bring otherss to Christ. In hindsight these folks were control freaks---i get no jollies, controlling anyone.

[Voyager]

Your experience and subsequent reaction mirrors mine Abbey. I feel exactly the same way you do now. Once bitten, twice shy.

:cool:

[jane]

Riverdove-

I am not going to write either way about tongues because to be honest with you, I just don't know the answers (thought I did at one time, but now I don't).

But this in your post concerns me more:

but she kept praising the preacher saying that he's a
godly man.


One of the clues that I look for to determine if a church has abusive signs is if everyone spouts off how wonderful and godly the pastor is. The notion that someone is a godly man is somehow twisted with the idea that he is "like god" or "can not be in error".

Men are humans and no matter how godly they are, they are human and can make an error.

I worry greatly when anyone talks about how their pastor is a godly man....as an answer to your question about the church docterine (in this case prosperity and tongues). It is not an answer to your honest questions; it is a line to quiet your questions and a CLUE that they are in a dangerous (inmyopinino) church group.


jane

[Hope 98]

One of the clues that I look for to determine if a church has abusive signs is if everyone spouts off how wonderful and godly the pastor is. The notion that someone is a godly man is somehow twisted with the idea that he is "like god" or "can not be in error".

Men are humans and no matter how godly they are, they are human and can make an error.

I worry greatly when anyone talks about how their pastor is a godly man....as an answer to your question about the church docterine (in this case prosperity and tongues). It is not an answer to your honest questions; it is a line to quiet your questions and a CLUE that they are in a dangerous (inmyopinino) church group.


jane

The one thing that assures me that I'm in a relatively safe church at the moment is the willingness of the pastor to admit his humanness. He is not above being challenged. He's not above admitting mistakes.

I'm concerned about where the church may be headed, because we've been experiencing what appears to be an intense movement of the Spirit. I believe it's real, but what will happen if it seems less intense at some point in the future?

There is a real foundation of loving relationship in the congregation that assures me that Jesus is here now, and has been for a long time. I pray that our first love doesn't get lost.

[hornblower]

Hi everybody Im back as Jack might say lol, movies.....Im into watching a lot of movies always have been..........
anyway Ive been reading and I cant tell you how much it means to me to hear your stories.......ALL of them, both kinds because i relate so much to everyone here. Ive been so hurt but I do try to hold onto what I believe god has done for me through me for me??????? What else do any of us have anyway? If He is not real we all might as well just go on and pack it all up, live it out and die knowing that we are doomed, hes the only hope for anything that I have or have ever had.
People especially charismatics have hurt me so much and with the gifts too! But on the other hand I was remembering stuff and to be honest I was hurting long before I finally came to god or God got me so their stuff just added onto my own bad hurts and made everything worse.
I know I would be dead and divorced for sure if I didnt have God in my life. My family would be so much worse drugs alcohol all kinds of stuff without god being with us going through all of our experiences.

I would like to add here though something I went through in the last two days concerning this thread. Because for me this is why I dont believe in the charismatic stiff any more. Im not talking about the gifts because to me people that dont even know about the gifts have never read about them nothing they have them too basically to me the gifts of the Spirit or about hearing god and listening to God talking to God enteracting with God and others. My little lady that is helping me praying for me talking to me at this little Methodist church on the corner, the Stevens minister talks and listens and obeys God! She has no idea about charismatics at all. So far all of this has helped me so much just to be once again in fellowship with a real and caring person. Im sure she doesnt pray in tongues but I couldnt care less. She is loving and caring and there is freedom there with her so its all been so good.
The other day spurned on by my post here I watched the famous charismatic program on tv. Miracles are taped on there real ones i am sure and shown along with testimony. The woman that was the interviewer was very balanced and peaceful telling about prophetic words and how this couple stood against doctors wishes for their miracle. Im glad for them, thats great!

Let me tell you what happened to me though..........
I turned off the tv and sat there in the silence for a long long time......something beginning to well up inside of me like a huge sunami!
It started out like a war cry........a war cry against God...........huge pain came out at Him. Why cant you do this same thing for me??????????????????? Why dpnt you reach down heal my daughter and get her some friends some body to love her and care for her make her thinking go right instead of wacko, where are these wonderful praying christians when it comes to me and her???????????
Is this because Im not a stupid worship leader?????????? Like they are? Thats who they are and you know how it is in these places its like they are the ones that get the good things happening to them not any of us little people. Anyway it feels like that.
I yelled at God for way over what seemed like an hour.
This I think might have been a good thing for me to at least get some or hopefully most of this huge anger I feel out of me.
You know? I kind of have a hard time with their all is good all is up to you only believe crap! But to be fair maybe what they are really saying is hey God did this thing isnt that great? Well yes it is great but then why doesnt He do it for me? What am I chop liver????????????
I have had miracles happen to me. Big in my eyes but maybe not so big to somebody else but not the miracle I am looking for at all.
I once had a real word prophetic word vision if you will because that is how God speaks to me and this woman on this program was talking about visions which really means a lot to me.........a whole lot! In my day it was considered to be totally wierd and was so shunned worse than speaking in tongues ever thought about being........now this lady has even written a book on it............??????
Anyway my vision was of a woman getting healed from breast cancer, God just took that lump totally out of there............then years later I get breast cancer..........the surgeon took my whole breast nada left. Nobody was even praying for me not even me really! Is it my fault?
Is it my fault my daughter is still sick? Is it my fault that she was attacked when she was little? One very spiritual lady not just one but many people have intimated that to me that if I would have known God better understood better none of this would have happened to her..........

My point is...............this is whats wrong with charismatics.

It may not be their fault maybe its just a few of them that make all the others look to be this way. I dont know the answers I just know the whole message is God heals God delivers God does all of these things but thats not TRUE!
God ........Jesus didnt heal everyone nor did He take away suffering.
I was and still may be so angry at God. I cant help it. Hes strong He can deal with it I certainly hope so because later after the yelling and crying I lay down and the old song came clearly to me.

Oh how He loves you and me
Oh how He loves you and me
He gave his life what more could He give
Oh how He loves you
Oh how He loves me
Oh how He loves you and me.

Maybe my anger is not really so much against that woman that pastors wife and those other women at that church and by the way it was not a charismatic church............it was mixed..........gifts were never discussed at all........but plenty of problems and it is the same kind of thing anyway.........if something bad is happening to you........we dont want to hear about it keep it to yourself all we want is a heroe somebody we can look up too somebody perfect in every way.............an idol we can place up on a shelf.........and if you arent going to play the game get the hell out of here!
Thats what Ive always encountered.
Nevertheless they are jusdt people. They can be more than wrong and they were! What happened to me though the complete shutting down the knife in my gut, the obsessive painful over and over again never ending what is that???? Could it be that my problem is all with God Himself? Why doesnt He see fit to heal my daughter? Why cant He? Why wont He?
Its something I want like a kid at a candy store I want it and i want it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want it so much its killing me. This is my whole problem. Ever since she was attacked and the started getting sick and it was always kind of like prophetic inside of me cause its like i always seem to know things before they come about. When she was baptised at the very charismatic church I was in it should have been a very happy day for me, she was like about nine, same age as me when I had my first expereience with jesus. I should have been so happy. But instead i cried and cried like a baby for absolute hours on end.

I think my stevens minister is like saying that this pain is an idol in my life. Yeah I can dig that.
It never goes away NEVER and I hate not get a littlke upset no I HATE anyone that does not understand and get me about it. Mental illness in a family will eat you up into a miliion pieces just like those women that came to Jesus asking Him to heal or cast it out of their kids?

I read in my 'spirit filled bible' that the gifts or ministries are like this...........mercy/ administration /healing /
a burden for the church like to see it grow and to know that everyone is ok with God like teaching but its really more than that its a heart thing thats how it put it/
giving to others that dont have things like charity type activities cooking and making things maybe
to me this is the real thing these kinds of gifts it make sense to me.
Anyway just wanted to say so much that I love all of you. were at the lake and Im using the mans computer since mine wont connect at all.
Its so peaceful down here wish all of you lived here with me in this place this little crooked house and we could talk and share and love on each other have coffee or tea something...................

[Lamisa]

hornblower,
I am so sorry for the things that have been said to you by people in the church. If the Lord hadn't gotten me out of the church that I was in recently, I believe that I would have been (and was to an extent) one of those abusers. I was in leadership in my church. And I personally want to apologize for those HORRIBLE things that people have said to you. To place the blame on you for your daughter's illness is simply wrong. It is an evil thing to say and a lie from the pit of hell.
I am so sorry for the hurt, for the abuse, the pain, the trauma, that aching and guilt that has haunted you due to these "prophetic" words. Sweetheart, all it comes down to is this simplicity, Jesus LOVES YOU! I see that you know that. But there is nothing you have done or could do to deserve that or to lose that. He Loved you and died for you when you were at your lowest point. John 3:17 says that God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. And, sorry, don't have my bible handy, but there is a story about a young man who Jesus healed and the crowd(maybe the pharisees) said, "who sinned that this young man was sick? him or his parents?" and Jesus was like, "nobody, this has simply occured that God may be glorified", something I have been considering recently is that maybe God isn't always glorified by miraculous healings, maybe sometimes a true miracle is that when someone is sick, those around them would be willing to look past themselves and rally around these hurting broken people(which is all of us) and Love and Love and Love and stop pointing the finger and stop looking for fault. And just embracing one another and giving whatever we have to give, even if that is only to weep with those who weep. To embrace someone who is lonely. To feed someone who is hungry. He died SIMPLY to have a relationship with us! That is how utterly desperately in LOVE with us He is! look at Song of Solomon! His Love for us! And we all want to make it so complicated. And its true, it all comes down to one thing.

LOVE

[hornblower]

hornblower,
I am so sorry for the things that have been said to you by people in the church. If the Lord hadn't gotten me out of the church that I was in recently, I believe that I would have been (and was to an extent) one of those abusers. I was in leadership in my church. And I personally want to apologize for those HORRIBLE things that people have said to you. To place the blame on you for your daughter's illness is simply wrong. It is an evil thing to say and a lie from the pit of hell.
I am so sorry for the hurt, for the abuse, the pain, the trauma, that aching and guilt that has haunted you due to these "prophetic" words. Sweetheart, all it comes down to is this simplicity, Jesus LOVES YOU! I see that you know that. But there is nothing you have done or could do to deserve that or to lose that. He Loved you and died for you when you were at your lowest point. John 3:17 says that God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. And, sorry, don't have my bible handy, but there is a story about a young man who Jesus healed and the crowd(maybe the pharisees) said, "who sinned that this young man was sick? him or his parents?" and Jesus was like, "nobody, this has simply occured that God may be glorified", something I have been considering recently is that maybe God isn't always glorified by miraculous healings, maybe sometimes a true miracle is that when someone is sick, those around them would be willing to look past themselves and rally around these hurting broken people(which is all of us) and Love and Love and Love and stop pointing the finger and stop looking for fault. And just embracing one another and giving whatever we have to give, even if that is only to weep with those who weep. To embrace someone who is lonely. To feed someone who is hungry. He died SIMPLY to have a relationship with us! That is how utterly desperately in LOVE with us He is! look at Song of Solomon! His Love for us! And we all want to make it so complicated. And its true, it all comes down to one thing.

LOVE


Lamisa I can barely write because of the tears in my eyes. This means so much to me.
I know most of them were just dumb.......I know I shouldnt say that but Im sorry you know its true. People say the stupidest stuff to people that are hurting. I wish we would got to school and learn the important things we all should be learning like what to say when someone is sick or dies and what to do for them because you know
**** happens!

Ive had some good people help me too so its ok. Nevertheless its hard to get past my daughter being attacked when she was so young and now being sick and poor and in trouble all of the time and then others in the churches always looking at us like we are ..........the plague. They do I swear.
Anyway thankyou so much this helps with God and my relationship

always helps me to hear the truth

[riverdove]

"One of the clues that I look for to determine if a church has abusive signs is if everyone spouts off how wonderful and godly the pastor is. The notion that someone is a godly man is somehow twisted with the idea that he is "like god" or "can not be in error".

Men are humans and no matter how godly they are, they are human and can make an error."

----------------

Thanks for your response, Jane. That is exactly what I had in mind. It scares me to death these days to exalt any one person. It is very easy to "hero worship" a preacher just because he is famous, or has the "authority" (having been given the privilege to stand up in the pulpit to preach, therefore, this person has got something in him that we don't and therefore we have to listen and follow all of his teachings regardless.) I have learned this through a very hard way and my wish is not for anybody to fall in this trap again.

[riverdove]

Lamisa, I was going to say something along those lines to Hornblower, but you've said it so well that I was so touched!

Hornblower, people can be so different, but yet so alike--I mean the struggles that we all face in this life. Sometimes I feel people just don't seem to understand me too. Now that I have left all the abusive church situations, I still have to suffer daily--trying to understand what all had happened to me. My own relatives didn't understand and still don't and now I'm beginning to understand the heartaches and isolation Jesus must have felt when the Bible said when He came to His own and yet His own received Him not. Who is to judge us for our suffering? I like Lamisa's message of love and acceptance. This message must be heard more and often. Sadly even in the church, love and grace is conditional (i.e. if you behave the way I expect you to, then love and respect can be given to you). Where in scripture is this based on??? Jesus spent day in and day out with the sinners (those whom even his own disciples would despise!) That said, I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. Your feelings, emotions and struggles are all very real and deserve to go through a complete cycle of grief, sadness and tears where at the end of the cycle is found God's never ending love and wisdom.