question about 16 steps

[newplace]

Hi.. I am new and have been reading some of the older posting to get familiar with your group. I am interesting in finding healing from spiritual abuse and had read the "thread" ( i guess that what you call it?) about why a 16 step recovery program is need instead of a 12 steps program.. I think it was from Reg? Anway- I am very interested in finding out if there are 16 steps programs in place or where can I get more information. I did a search online and could not find anything. Can anyone help?

[butterfly]

:D Welcome Newplace,

I don"t know anything about the step programs. I am sure there are some here who are able to tell you.
butterfly Shirley

[Reg]

Hi.. I am new and have been reading some of the older posting to get familiar with your group. I am interesting in finding healing from spiritual abuse and had read the "thread" ( i guess that what you call it?) about why a 16 step recovery program is need instead of a 12 steps program.. I think it was from Reg? Anway- I am very interested in finding out if there are 16 steps programs in place or where can I get more information. I did a search online and could not find anything. Can anyone help?
newplace, Weclome.

Read the 16 Steps vs 12 Steps thread. This is where it is being implemented. It is rare. I thought I could start something like this in my area. No such luck.

July 27/04 - 16 Steps vs 12 Steps

In reading the book "Many Roads - One Journey" I read on page 48 where it talks about a new group that uses the 16 Steps........

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5998&highlight=steps

[bpico]

Hello New Place,

I am not surprised you can't find a group that uses this model, especially in church. The standard approach is still the age old and out of date 12 steps. If you research the history you will see it comes from a fairly extreme brand of evangelicalism known as the Oxford Group. Go ahead and google them and read up on it. If at all possible try and stay away from AA and 12 Step. It isn't the gospel as Jesus delivered but a counterfeit. You could read the book "Many Roads - One Journey" which isn't christian and yes, some ideas you will pribably not agree with but it is a place to start. Something else I just read is " The co-dependancy conspircy" (sp?). An excellant resource. "7 tools...." by Dr Stanton Peele is also excellant. I hope you have some good people to talk to as well.

God bless,
Bill

[Jerry]

Hello New Place,

I am not surprised you can't find a group that uses this model, especially in church. The standard approach is still the age old and out of date 12 steps. If you research the history you will see it comes from a fairly extreme brand of evangelicalism known as the Oxford Group. Go ahead and google them and read up on it. If at all possible try and stay away from AA and 12 Step. It isn't the gospel as Jesus delivered but a counterfeit. You could read the book "Many Roads - One Journey" which isn't christian and yes, some ideas you will pribably not agree with but it is a place to start. Something else I just read is " The co-dependancy conspircy" (sp?). An excellant resource. "7 tools...." by Dr Stanton Peele is also excellant. I hope you have some good people to talk to as well.

God bless,
Bill

Dear Bill,,,
You are so far in left field !!!! AA is an exellant organization !!!!! AA isn't about "Getting Saved" it is about "Getting Sober" so your in a condition to be "Saved",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because you can't talk sense to a "Drunk" ;)
Love Jerry

[bpico]

Jerry, Lets at least be kind and respectful. I know what I speak of from experience. AA is a moral program (right in the Big Book) how does that help you learn new skills to live life? My biggest concern with the 12 steps and AA is the contridictions. I will quote from The Journal of Psychology 127(5), a portion of an article by Franklin Truan:
The confusing and contradictory beliefs about addiction inherent in the Twelve Step Model exemplify the human propensity to retain faulty beliefs. For example, the Twelve Step Model supports the belief that addiction is not caused by the individual, is uncontrollable, and is incurable. Belief structures concerning the individual's responsibility for causing, controlling, and curing addiction to alcohol include a community consensus of opinion, which on the surface promotes externalization of responsibility as part of the structure. This externalization of responsibility, however, places the addict in a double bind, because he or she is held responsible for abstaining from an uncontrollable and incurable condition which was caused by an external force. If successful (staying in recovery), the addict must admit powerlessness over the disease, remain dependent through perpetual membership in a support group, and give credit for any success to the model and the group. If treatment fails, the individual is both responsible for resumption of drinking, and yet not responsible, because of the uncontrollable and incurable nature of alcoholism. The Twelve Step Model fails to provide hope for normalcy, by insisting upon self-responsibility and dependence on a support group.

That in a nutshell sums it up for me. We need a new approach, we need to think outside the box. The needs of people are to great to stick with an old system that doesn't work. I can supple factual evidence if you like.

Bill

[DiligentLily]

BPICO, I don't know how to sort out the psycological criticisms of 12-steps that you gave us, but several people who have ministered God's grace to me have been through the 12-steps and helped countless others get off alcohol and drugs that way. Our priest has been sober for 20 years through 12-steps and he speaks of it very, very highly.

[DiligentLily]

For example, the Twelve Step Model supports the belief that addiction is not caused by the individual, is uncontrollable, and is incurable.

That's not how is looks to me. Every 12-stepper I know has been free to admit his errors and take responsibility for getting himself in that jam.

[underthemercy]

Hi.. I am new and have been reading some of the older posting to get familiar with your group. I am interesting in finding healing from spiritual abuse and had read the "thread" ( i guess that what you call it?) about why a 16 step recovery program is need instead of a 12 steps program.. I think it was from Reg? Anway- I am very interested in finding out if there are 16 steps programs in place or where can I get more information. I did a search online and could not find anything. Can anyone help?

I am new here also and wanted to tell you that I have had experience with AA and it seemed to go very well with the cult like church and seminar group ministry teaching which has been the source of deep grief and destruction in my life. Like AA I was taught powerlessness in many ways which made me distrust my own mind and understanding and caused me a very dangerous dependence on the spiritual chain of command to which I submitted without reserve my very life, body and energy.

I learned to walk, talk, dress and teach according to the pattern layed out for me on Mt. Sinai! I was a star, because I was saved outof a life of great sin and shame. They called me God's trophy of grace. The more I cried and humbled myself in front of the group, the bigger star I became. I learned to sink deeper into my powerlessness when I was "diagnosed" with demon infestation. That could be the only reason I was depresssed and having problems. So I submitted to the "holy man/shaman/pastor" for 15 years of denigrating sessions of exorcism lasting until the wee hours of the morning while my children were in the church library taken care of by a teenager whose parents were saavy in exorcism.

We were told what music to listen to, what colors to paint our homes, what kind of clothes to wear, not to have sex on Saturday night so that our worship experience on Sunday would be better. We entered the homeschool program, got rid of our TV, went to church when its doors opened and to every seminar, taught Sunday School.....you get the picture. We aspired to be on staff of the Seminar ministry. Headquarters was called "the middle of a miracle". But since I had been divorced we were not qualified. We were not pure! We were to be rebuilders a maybe sometime in the furure a position could open up for the likes of our kind. We were give special assignments to complete to show that we were worthy and committed. There were rules about gossip and spreading bad reports.

Oh, my just recounting this makes knots in my stomach. Powerlessness is not a Christian Idea. It is a ploy of cults to bend their members to the will of the leader and the group.

But, you see, I really did know Jesus Christ personally. Not because I sought Him out, no...He sought me, He pursued me much like the poem The Hound of Heaven describes. I heard Him in a sense tell me to come into His arms and rest. He told me that He was the very thing I had been longing for. I went and found that He is the Truth. Since that day a knowledge deeper than thought of His Presence has always been with me. But, I had no mentor. No one who knew how to make me a disciple. The poor, lame church with the poor lame pastors some who eat the sheep instead of feed them were all I had. I do not know the why He let me travel so long down this valley of Bacca, but Grief has not killed me yet. And the responses I received from my first post have been like food and drink.

I titled my post Afraid to Trust because I am alarmed and frightened at the state of the Church today. Jesus asked if He would find any faith when He came back the second time.

I have researched AA and its roots. I have researched psychology and its roots. I have gone down both paths and found more grief and despair. I have gone to secular and so called "Christian" AA and Christian Therapists.
Jesus says something about the roots of things.

If you are interested in looking into these roots, I am giving some links. I know that AA themselves say that their success rate shows over 90% failure. It is also a political issue (judges can order people into AA) and is an industry with all the rehab centers. I have been to a few of these also.

I am not sure if the 16 steps you are wondering about is called Rational Recovery or not. But it is an alternative to AA. I have reservations about this also, but I bought the book. It is quite interesting and does proport that a person is not powerless to overcome problems forever. I believe that ignorance could lead to enslavement. Sad situation in American Education graduating functional illiterates. Could be part of a plan, n'cest pas?

I would urge you to check out this information on AA and Rational Recovery.

www.rationalrecovery.net Alternative to AA----16 steps?

http://www.orange-papers.org/ a very throrough website dealing with the history of AA going back to the Oxford Group and even a connection to fascism!

http://www.geocities.com/drugsandalcoholinfo/webpagesandpapers/mindcontroltactics.htm - is AA a cult? See what this once long time member says


The abusive system I was involved with was also a steps program. What seems to happen is people are objectified, depersonalized and become projects instead of relationships. I could illustrate this with a story about one of my children's experiences, but will save that for another.

I pray for your healing. May we all become repairers of the breach, restorers of the paths to walk in and remain

Under The MERCY.
Love and Thanks

[Elisabeth]

Spiritual abuse can happen in any setting. The setting for mine was a church in an large denomination that is known for its sticking to the Bible, and the church was very traditional. I have no doubt that some 12 step groups are abusive, while others can lead to healing.

[Voyager]

I don't think the number of steps really matters. Let me explain. When someone with an addictive personality is dealing with problems in their life, they have two ways of dealing with them:

1. Finding a caring shoulder to lean on and an understanding ear to listen to their problems and help them with possible solutions.

2. Finding a substance to ingest to numb the pains and problems of life.

The reason groups like A.A. work is because they give the members an alternative to drowning their sorrows with alcohol or drugs. They allow the members to vent and get things off their chest. After the members do this, they feel like someone else is helping them bear their burdens instead of having to carry them alone. Churches and other types of support networks can also provide this type of help to addicts.

I believe that addictions are the result of:

1. Genetic components passed down from our parents.

2. Lack of a functional family or support system.

My father was an alcoholic, and so is my only full sibling (a brother). My father's other children also struggle with addictions. I believe this is partly a genetic component, and partly a lack of a functional family.

My experience in dealing with my addictive personality is that I was helped greatly by having a support system to replace my dysfunctional family. Whether it's a church or a 12-step group, I don't think it really matters. To me, the whole 12-step philosophy is irrelevant - it's the support system that the group provides that helps people stay sober. It doesn't matter if it's one step or 500 steps. The process of providing the addict with alternatives to sitting around and abusing substances is what works.

The problem I have with most of the support systems out there is the religious aspect. I now feel like my relationship with God is personal, and I don't need a group or a spiritual leader telling me how to manage it. The last time I allowed a group to do this, my personal place with God was wrecked - so now no person(s) will ever be allowed to violate that place ever again. This poses a problem with me desiring to get back into a support group. I have not been able to find any that do not involve a religious requirement of some kind.

I see a great need for a suppport system that doesn't have a bunch of religious requirements. Just a place where people can come and be themselves and meet other individuals and families. A place that respects the right of each individual to have a relationship with God... or not to have one. A place that can function as a missing family for the addict. A place that can provide grandmothers and grandfathers for children who don't have any. A place to have potluck dinners on Sunday afternoon where you can come and just hangout with friends instead of being required to fulfill religious obligations. Oh well, maybe I'll have to start such a group someday.

Somebody recently said that the problem with most churches is that the friendships stop the moment you exit the system. That is the biggest problem that I see with support systems that have religious requirements. If they just focused on making friends and leaving the Bible reading and/or religious requirements to the individual, you could make long-lasting relationships that would stay intact after you exit the system.

:cool:

[bpico]

Thanks Voyager,

I can certianly see your point. We as humans were created to be in relationship with others and as this whole forum attests all to often these relationships end badly. I know what you are saying about AA groups in particular. But I wonder, is it true that we will for our lives need a group because we have some "desease" and will always struggle? What if we didn't believe that? What if we believed we could become resilant and develop strength of charcter and personhood so we could move through life in strength and purpose? I think we must, as your icon says think for ourselves. We need to search out these things and make sure we are believing what is really TRUE because as Jesus said, that is what sets us free.

Cheers

[Jerry]

Thanks Voyager,

I can certianly see your point. We as humans were created to be in relationship with others and as this whole forum attests all to often these relationships end badly. I know what you are saying about AA groups in particular. But I wonder, is it true that we will for our lives need a group because we have some "desease" and will always struggle? What if we didn't believe that? What if we believed we could become resilant and develop strength of charcter and personhood so we could move through life in strength and purpose? I think we must, as your icon says think for ourselves. We need to search out these things and make sure we are believing what is really TRUE because as Jesus said, that is what sets us free.

Cheers
Dear Bpico,,,,
Sorry we got off on the wrong foot,,,,I did not intend to sound so aggressive :o .................I think the whole human experiment is about relationships ............Personal growth can not take precedence over relationships,,,,,,,,,,,because it ceases to be growth in the attempt ;)
Love Jerry