WARNING: Scripture, thoughts please

[SpinningHead]

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself prays for us with groans that
words cannot express. Romans 8:26

Voyager had posted a little essay to Abbey that started w/ this Scripture.

Any post tongue-talking fundies out there?

This question is for everyone really...what do you think this Scripture means?

I can remember going to "Holy Spirit Gift Camp" (for lack of a better name for it) as a kid/young teenager where the adults would stand over us as we youngings sat in a circle...and we'd all be praying (for what I don't remember) and the adults lay their hands on us and rock us back and forth encouraging us to moan and wail "in prayer". They'd use this Scripture verse every time...and if we moaned, then the Holy Spirit was moving for us, through us but I felt like a fake everytime because I felt it was me consciously moaning and not this uncontrollable moan coming from within. Felt like I was forcing something so they'd move on.

thoughts anybody?

[yeshua'smags]

I always thought it meant that when we don't know what to pray, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us and speaks to God in a way we don't yet understand.

[Anna Marta]

Been there done that too!

Not being the wisest person I ever knew, I have experienced that there are times when I simply have no words and the only thing I can do is just literally groan in my painfulness - having the security that it is enough and fully understood and heard! .

It has always given me great comfort that my Father and His Holy Spirit has provided for me so well.

Since my post pentecostal days I have chosen to leave the whole tongues issue to personal choice for others. I highly disagree with the indoctrination methods used by some of the fundamental groups/churches. Dearest SP, I am sorry that happened to you and to others also. It seems like a form of child abuse to me.

Love
Anna Marta

[Hope 98]

Somewhere along the line I heard someone refer to "tongues" as private prayer language. That makes sense to me. God is listening to our hearts anyway and what we have to say out loud makes little difference to Him.

If you feel so moved to speak in sounds that don't make sense, don't feel bad about it. If you don't feel so moved, don't worry about it. It's not for ANYONE ELSE ON EARTH to determine for you.

How many people have all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (as they're understood) all the time? Why should the gift of tongues be given equally to everyone?

File it all under "God's business". We can discuss it and wonder about it, but no one can judge another by whether or not they speak in tongues.

[jimsmuse]

Been there done that too!

Not being the wisest person I ever knew, I have experienced that there are times when I simply have no words and the only thing I can do is just literally groan in my painfulness - having the security that it is enough and fully understood and heard! .

It has always given me great comfort that my Father and His Holy Spirit has provided for me so well.

Since my post pentecostal days I have chosen to leave the whole tongues issue to personal choice for others. I highly disagree with the indoctrination methods used by some of the fundamental groups/churches. Dearest SP, I am sorry that happened to you and to others also. It seems like a form of child abuse to me.

Ditto for me too! I have been there done that and have drawn the same conclusions and leave to everyone's individual relationship however I think it may be corrupted when used in a corporate manner (tongues). The evidence is surely there! However standing with open arms as a prayer stance

Love
Anna Marta



Ditto for me too! I have been there done that and have drawn the same conclusions. I leave this to everyone's individual relationship, however, I think it may be corrupted when used in a corporate manner (tongues). The evidence is surely there! However standing with open arms as a prayer stance, worshipping with arms lifted in an act of worship I think is a natural response for a lot of people and I don't asscociate that with the "necessity of tongues". Just like kneeling or prostration, it's an act of whole body devotion. As long as it's genuine and that goes for any "denomination" it happens in.
In a lot of cases we just don't have the right words and so the Holy Spirit intercedes for us and it doesn't have anything to do with being "Charismatic".:o :rolleyes: Good thread SP! Bless your heart, I am so sorry you had to suffer that kind of abuse. :mad:

[Carmen]

I can remember going to "Holy Spirit Gift Camp" (for lack of a better name for it) as a kid/young teenager where the adults would stand over us as we youngings sat in a circle...and we'd all be praying (for what I don't remember) and the adults lay their hands on us and rock us back and forth encouraging us to moan and wail "in prayer". They'd use this Scripture verse every time...and if we moaned, then the Holy Spirit was moving for us, through us but I felt like a fake everytime because I felt it was me consciously moaning and not this uncontrollable moan coming from within. Felt like I was forcing something so they'd move on.

I experienced something like that too, but more as a youth and student. I felt sooo stupid. I spent years trying to catch what I thought they had, and after study, contemplation and prayer have concluded that I always had the Holy Spirit since the moment I was born again and that he wasn't the same one I felt at those gatherings. Sure, my experience is very subjective, but I feel good about the conclusion. I am not against tongues as a manifestation of the Spirit per-se, but believe that the language must be a real existing language that people speak and the words spoken must be edifying for someone other than the person speaking. Unfortunately I have never witnessed what I think that scripture describes. I won't go into more and doctrinal detail, that would just get people riled up. I will say that I agree with most in the Reformed camp though, that can be looked up.

I have sometimes cried while praying, even out loud. Perhaps that is the "groaning" that Paul is getting at. I think that the passage is related to others in the OT and gospels and can't just be taken alone. What Paul wrote was usually pointing to somewhere in the scripture he knew well - the OT.

The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. Ex. 3:7.

"Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless. Ex. 22:22-24.

In my distress I called to the LORD; I called out to my God. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry came to his ears. 2 Samuel 22:7.

'If calamity comes upon us, whether the sword of judgment, or plague or famine, we will stand in your presence before this temple that bears your Name and will cry out to you in our distress, and you will hear us and save us.' 2 Chronicles 7:9.

The LORD has heard my cry for mercy; the LORD accepts my prayer. Psalm 6:9.

You hear, O LORD, the desire of the afflicted; you encourage them, and you listen to their cry, defending the fatherless and the oppressed, in order that man, who is of the earth, may terrify no more. Psalm 10:17-18.

In my distress I called to the LORD; I cried to my God for help. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry came before him, into his ears. Psalm 18:6.

The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles. Psalm 34:17.

As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, "Don't cry." Then he went up and touched the coffin, and those carrying it stood still. He said, "Young man, I say to you, get up!" The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother. Luke 7:12-15.

I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you....On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. John 14:18,20.

Jesus didn't leave us as orphans. When we cry out to him he is still here through his Spirit, right from the moment we knew him.

[Satscout]

Just my two cents, ok?

Sometimes there are situations where we just have no words. Things are so hopeless-looking that all we can do is say "God, if You don't do something mighty here, all is lost."

I remember the story of Hannah. The mama who "gave" her child to the Lord... until he was born, at which point she "loaned" him to the Lord "all the days of his life". :D Gotta love that. Anyhow, the scene where she was praying at the temple shows a desperate woman. She was so fervent in prayer - she too must have just plain run out of words - that to a passing priest she appeared drunk. I wonder just exactly what the Spirit was praying for her at that point. :rolleyes: I somehow doubt ALL of it had to do with her barrenness and her husband's attitude.

And re: tongues... again, just my two cents... but it is likely that most "real" manifestations of tongues as described in Acts don't happen much these days with our extensive knowledge of the languages of the world. It is possible, of course, that the Lord could choose to speak through one of His children in a language they do not know for His glory - but it wouldn't IMO be some private prayer tongue but a forth-telling of His gospel to some person present who does understand that language. My opinion only, so no tomatos please. :)