The desire for revenge

[abbey]

Hi folks--happy sunday!

I have been out of the cult since late August. I'm not sure yet if God is going to strike me dead for leaving his supposed will. This was the kind of fear generated from the group. When i mentioned leaving this group the leader asked,"don't you fear God? He will chatise you" and basically I was fed that dire consequenses are in my horizan. My families future too-- o and yes, im filled with demons. The leader said due to my hedonstic, sex, drugs and rock-n-roll lifestyle that i let a lot of demons in.

Well, i know a number of Christians who were involed in rock-n-roll and they dont seem to be foaming at the mouth with demonic entities.

I can say that I praise God for the internet because the info I have read about cults all seem to be similar to mine. It appears as tho all these cults use the same scripture and techniques to ground a person in fear. I was so scared to leave that group---only thru this forum was I able to gain the courage to escape. So again, Thank you Jesus for rescuing me thru the net!

By to my point: When you folks left and were able to see the lies, intimidation, guilt and fear tactics, did you feel a need to get back at the church/group? I know this mans (leaders) website, his net adventures and so fourth. i am so tempted to start a campaign against him. To expose his SA to others who may respect him or who may end up in his zany, dangerous cult. He tends to recruit thru the internet. He promises god's help thru warfare and then convinces them that theyre a multiple personality! He believes that almost all people have a shattered spirit (mpd/did) and that we can only be whole when all the personalities are unified in Christ. I thought is was/is hogwash---but tell me folks, what the heck does this man gain from doing this? in fact, any theories on why people want to control people spiritually? its so dang weird to see someone holding others in bondage all in the name of God?!?

Anyhow, is it dangerous for me to expose? Shall I just sit back and let God take care of them? Did you folks feel a need to expose your SA abusers?

Thx, you guyz are a blessing to me!
Ab

[abbey]

Also, i was thinking of writing an online journal of my experiences. Two reasons: the theraputic value it may have and also to warn others of Christian cults. Ive had people say to me, " how can followers of Christ have a cultish tinge?" Basically thinking that just because someone is labeled a christian they are A_OK!

I must admit, I was convinced that since this group was christ centered that it would be A-OK. my thought on cults were poison Kool-aid, stock-piling weapons or pony-tailed,flowing robed flower sellers at the airport. Boy was I naive!

do you think its too early (4 months out) to journal? Half my healing is in trying to forget this group!

[Anna Marta]

Dearest Abbey,

Revenge -oh yes, I surmise if we should take a poll the majority of us seriously considered revengeof different kinds. :mad:

I don't have a good answer for you. I can only share our decision making process.

We discussed the ethical/moral pros and cons of exposure. We asked ourselves if we had a responsibility to do so in order to protect others from being hurt as we were. Steinar felt strongly that, if we were brutally honest with ourselves, our going public would be based on our personal desire for revenge and that would not honor God because he has clearly stated that revenge belongs to him. We decided that we should speak up but only in private with those persons who come to us and share our testimony truthfully with them.

We pray for God's clear direction for you.

Shalom
Anna Marta

[Voyager]

I think a Journal would be a great idea. It will show your progress into recovery.

I felt the same way you did after I left. It worried me that talking about the spiritual abuse would just prolong my healing. I just wanted to forget what happened and move on. However, it was not that easy. There was so much wrong that got into me during the 12 years I was in the group, and it has taken a long time to get it out of me. It doesn't happen overnight.

One of my former pastor's classic lines was, "Get over it and move on." I don't believe this saying comes from God at all. God gave us emotions, so why would He not want us to use them? When someone harms us, it's not natural to "get over it and move on". Sometimes there is grief, sadness, anger, remorse, and other emotions to process. This is a healthy, natural cycle - and there is a reason for it. Our emotional responses to a crisis help us deal with the experience. To sweep them all under the rug and just "move on" will only cause us to be filled with pent-up, unresolved issues that will cause stress and anxiety.

As far as exposing the abuse goes, here is my response to someone's post from several months ago who asked the same question:

After I escaped my former spiritually abusive church, I wanted to help my former church members. I sent them letters on the symptoms of cults and controlling groups. I sent books on spiritual abuse anonymously. I was already blacklisted, so it didn't matter to me. My name was already ruined because I had escaped the church and "left God's will". I pleaded with people to leave the church. I started an online forum for the escapees of the church that eventually had over 100 members. I even got together with a few former members (an older couple) and we put fliers about the symptoms of cults on cars parked at the church during a Sunday morning service. I was told that the church called the police and tried to get me arrested for "harassment", but it never happened. It took a few years, but eventually over 450 members escaped the church due to the abuse and the pastor was terminated. The church has since dwindled to just 50 members.

Would I recommend this to anyone else? Not unless you have very thick skin. Did it do any good? Yes, it did. Many former church members credited me for exposing the abuse and getting the abusive pastor terminated for embezzlement of church funds among other charges. Would I do it again? Yes. Is it hazardous to your mental health? Probably, but it was also very vindicating.

In my opinion, you don't "move on" from this kind of experience. You just go through it, and eventually you get to the other side. It's a journey that takes time. The only way to "move on" would be to go back and erase the abuse that you experienced. But since you cannot do that, you just go through it. We'll go through it with you.

What I did in exposing my former pastor's abuse is not the norm. For most people, it's probably more healthy to leave and get as far away from the group as you can. One thing is for sure, it would be a waste of time to try to get the pastor to stop abusing. I have never heard of this happening. Most of the time, the people in the church will support the abusive pastor and reject anyone who comes against him/her as a demonized heretic.

When I first began exposing my former pastor's abuse, I did it anonymously. People probably figured it was me, but they didn't know for sure. When I heard that the pastor had labeled me "insane" from the pulpit, I really went on the offensive. I wrote the editor of the local paper, and I even posted an ad in the paper that advertised the website forum I had developed that exposed the abusive pastor. The website ended up becoming the talk of the town, and half the city of 16,000 ended up visiting it. Once the members of the church starting seeing the abuse for what it was and felt like they were embarrassed to be involved in the church, they started bailing out family by family.

Is it best for anyone to do what I did ? I highly doubt it. For most people, it is probably best to get away from the abuse and start a new life. I was very bullheaded and I took on a lot of grief, expenses, and added rejection due to my actions. Most people would not want to deal with that, and I don't blame them. There is a big price to pay if you decide to try to expose the abuse. The pastor will try to destroy your credibility, and you may never win the battle that I won. It's a very big risk.

Hope this helps.

:cool:

[exwitchoz]

Hi folks--happy sunday!

I have been out of the cult since late August. I'm not sure yet if God is going to strike me dead for leaving his supposed will. This was the kind of fear generated from the group.

Altho' my experiences are different from yours Abbey I can assure you that if God didn't strike me with lightning for turning away from Christianity and getting into Paganism... He's NOT gonna 'zap' YOU for leaving a cult...

I know that's easier said than 'believed' sometimes ... and I DEFINITELY understand that fear.... but remember that Satan is a liar... and if he can paralyze us with lies and fear he'll give it his best shot...

Praying that the Lord shows you the truth of what's what and what's not in this situation...

But know this... If He sent his Son to die for YOU... He's not about to 'zap' you for leaving a cult... you have NOT turned AWAY from Him by leaving... you have made a BIG step TOWARDS Him... OK?

(((HUGS)))

When i mentioned leaving this group the leader asked,"don't you fear God? He will chatise you" and basically I was fed that dire consequenses are in my horizan. My families future too-- o and yes, im filled with demons. The leader said due to my hedonstic, sex, drugs and rock-n-roll lifestyle that i let a lot of demons in.

Well, i know a number of Christians who were involed in rock-n-roll and they dont seem to be foaming at the mouth with demonic entities.

LOL!!! if you look at a dictionary from pre-2001/2002 next to "hedonist" you'll find a picture of me...

...and yes.... I've met those that think that if you even walk past a can of beer you are filled with demons *rolls eyes*... (Funny example) Hey! I got asked by a Pentecostal Youth Pastor (who knew something of my background) if I smelt sulphur... well call me stupid but it didn't click what he meant so I whispered back "Why? Did you fart??" :o

ANYWAY....

For all the talk about 'doorways' for demonic possession I've heard I am unaware of a single verse that says there is such a thing... Yes... there ARE demons and there IS such a thing as 'possesion'.... BUT.... As our faith is meant to based on Scripture rather than on 'experience' like New-Agers or hearsay ... or even 'what works'... (Hey! Magick 'works'... but it's not 'right'... ;)) ...we need to look to Scripture for the answer rather than what Pastor such-and-such thinks/says/what-have-you... OK?

There's an article that I hope you will find useful/helpful/of interest at my site that deals with the whole issue of these alleged 'Demonic Doorways'...
"What About Demonic Doorways?" - http://exwitchaustralia.com/Articles/Doorways3.html

By to my point: When you folks left and were able to see the lies, intimidation, guilt and fear tactics, did you feel a need to get back at the church/group? I know this mans (leaders) website, his net adventures and so fourth. i am so tempted to start a campaign against him. <SNIPPED>
Anyhow, is it dangerous for me to expose? Shall I just sit back and let God take care of them? Did you folks feel a need to expose your SA abusers?

Well... as I said our 'experiences' may be quite different ... but boy oh boy... do I know THAT feeling of wanting some 'pay back'...

Now this is personal opinion only... OK?

Believe me there's a few 'individuals' that I would still like to see fall flat on their faces... but I've found that trying to 'trip them up' ultimately does ME more harm than it does them...

So instead of 'singling out individuals' and by 'looking at the broader picture' instead with my website.... well God has blessed it... and ultimately (I think) it has not only helped more people but it has also done more 'damage' to those 'individuals' and their 'power base' than I could have done if I had 'targeted' them alone...

God says "Vengence is mine..." and possibly that is an example of it... by NOT seeking individual retribution and instead by seeking to expose the problem/s with the occult in general... well God honoured that I guess... and HE has 'brought down' those that hurt me - and far more effectively than I could have as I said... and BEYOND even that... I know that God can use what has happened in THEIR lives too... and bring THEM to repentence just as He did me...

When all is said and done... and as hurt and as bitter I may be about what happened to me at times... I would much rather see those I hold responsible with me in Heaven than see them undergo the alternative...

Besides... Scripture says there are "MANY mansions" in Heaven... so it's not like I'd have to live next door to them... ;) :rolleyes:

Also, i was thinking of writing an online journal of my experiences. Two reasons: the theraputic value it may have and also to warn others of Christian cults. Ive had people say to me, " how can followers of Christ have a cultish tinge?" Basically thinking that just because someone is labeled a christian they are A_OK!

I must admit, I was convinced that since this group was christ centered that it would be A-OK. my thought on cults were poison Kool-aid, stock-piling weapons or pony-tailed,flowing robed flower sellers at the airport. Boy was I naive!

I think that it would be a great idea... the journalling/blogging I mean... I have a blog where I can 'vent' when i feel i need to... and as you know at SaM there's a 'Rants' folder where members can 'get it off their chests' when they need to... and it is always interesting to go back thru your old posts (well it is for me at least) and see just how far you HAVE come at times...

do you think its too early (4 months out) to journal? Half my healing is in trying to forget this group!

Another reason p'haps (personal opinion only) not to 'single out' a group or individuals if you do decide to start a website... but rather to look at groups that have common ground... such as "pseudo-Christian cults" (as you said... many have common elements with the group you have left) for example...

As for is 4 months too soon???

I dunno for some it may be ... for others it may not be... in my case it was 18 months before I even 'came out' at church as an exWitch... I know others who did from Day One... we are all individuals and God deals with us individually... Seek Him on that one Abbey...

Pray about it... and take the time to wait on God for a reply... OK???

I'll certainly be praying that the Lord grants you His wisdom in this matter and guides your hand...

(((HUGS))) and Peace Ab :)

[exwitchoz]

Just as an after thought...

IF you do decide to create a website/online journal... here's a link to a site that I personally have found extremely useful in regard to 'tips' and a few helpful 'do's and 'do not's...

http://ied.gospelcom.net/church-site-tips.php

It's specifically about evangelistic sites so some of it may not apply to what you are talking about doing Abbey... but there is some good advice amongst it that applies to ANY site...

Hope it is of help/interest... :)

[hoipoloi]

Ah, Yes, Abbey, Yes -- Yes -- Yes -- Sweet Revenge!

How I agree with you -- how wonderful the cold dish of Revenge would be!

That wild Justice -- that getting back -- how often have I thought this, even planned it, even been on the edge!

And yet -- and yet --......

I have not gone down that road because I know it will bounce back at me -- a purely selfish reaction -- am I right, am I right? I don't know.

And yet the *******s have got away with it!

The unfairness makes me VERY angry!

:mad:

[Janice]

I can't tell you what to do, only what I would/did do if I were in your situation.

My feelings of revenge were very strong. I wanted (and part of me still does) want to see pastor fall flat on his face & see the church fold.

But... that "still small voice" keeps telling me that the vengence is His.

I have to leave it alone and leave it in God's hands.

No matter what they've done to me, I am still responsible for how I react and handle the situation. That's what I will be judged on someday.

They will also be judged for what they did and are still doing.

[exwitchoz]

<SNIPPED>

And yet the *******s have got away with it!

The unfairness makes me VERY angry!

:mad:

(((HUGS))) Hoipoloi...

In soooo many ways the *******s have NOT got away with it!

Yes they've hurt you... BADLY... but... You are still going... still standing... feeling bruised and battered f'sure... and angry and hurt... but you are STILL standing... and living your life as best you can...

It's been said that "Living Well (or as well as you can at the time) is the best revenge"... and it's pretty true...

Remember that you are living your life as best you can... and doing all these things in your life for YOU, not them any longer...

IMHO... Living well (or as well as we can at the time) is the best revenge because it empowers us to take back control of our lives and not allow ourselves to be controlled by the past and the hurt... in short... by them!!!

IMHO... To be able to pick yourself up some days and know that you may be 'broken' - but not beaten... not defeated... is in many ways the sweetest 'revenge' of all... Because in actuality, it has very little to do with revenge against our abusers.... it is about victory in our own lives...

Hang in there mate! ...Lifting you up in prayer also...

(((HUGS))) and Peace...

[Jerry]

"Revenge" is a dish best served cold.................:eek:

[hoipoloi]

Dear exwitchoz

You are,of course, right!

HIS revenge only -- not even to be thought, never mind wished by me.

My favourite line of this is from Twelfth Night: "The whirligig of Time brings in His revenges".

Now let's get back to having a life.

Easier said ......

[exwitchoz]

My favourite line of this is from Twelfth Night: "The whirligig of Time brings in His revenges".

I'll have to remember that one...

One bit of 'wisdom' that brought a smile to my face in a dark period I went thru some time back I actually saw scrawled on a toilet door ('fraid I never was one for Shakespeare)... "Time heals all wounds... and wounds all heels..." ;)

Now let's get back to having a life.

Easier said ......

Sadly it is easier said than done sometimes... :'(

Which is why praying for each other is so important...

...and I am definitely praying for you hoipoloi... (((HUGS)))

[SpinningHead]

Journal? ABSOLUTELY!!

Revenge...Janice is right, it's not ours to serve.

Exposure...Hmmm...there's a thought. I can't tell you what to do on this one but I can share our experience and where we're at with it. We had overwhelming evidence of financial irresponsibility and favors within...nobody wanted to hear it. And people turned on us for shining the light on something they didn't want to see or believe. Everyone got quite vicious. :(

Who was I exposing this group of people to? The congregation?? They didn't want to hear it. :confused:

I always ask myself why do I feel the need to expose...to warn other? yes. but also <secretly> so maybe there'd be someone out there who would see what I experienced and validate everything I went through. Now DON'T think I'm projecting that on you...that's all about me and what I've learned about myself by coming to this forum. Jerry calls it Validation Day, I think.

In the end, maybe we can be a support to someone who's eyes are open and they approach us...but otherwise, in our situation we've determined it's a waste of time for us to try to reveal the truth to people who don't want to see it.

Your situation may be entirely different, which I respect. But if there's something of value in what I went through...well, that's great. :)

[beginagainrose]

There is a difference between revenge and accountability... we have been learning this all along the way in our own personal healing journay...having been acused of "taking our own revenge" many times.(I did have horrible, violent nightmares for many months in the beginning; but took each time captive to Jesus...they had already tapped my phone and heard me telling this in conversations to family - which, I believe, led to the "sting operation" of sending someone to my front door offering to kill my pastor for me!) I am coming to believe the basic truth lies somewhere in this: revenge is "getting even"; "payback" - to "harm and destroy" as doing likewise what you have suffered in some way. Accountability is not for destruction... but for RE-construction. Being a mirror so that they can see clearly what they have done or are doING...that they might "see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts...and TURN (repentance). It is the desire to see the conduct stopped so that others are not harmed as well. BUT the motive of your heart in "being a mirror"...is to speak the truth IN LOVE (truth with kindness; as much as lies within your ability to do so...). Caring enough to confront is the most lovING (I-N-G makes it active!) thing we can do and, I believe, may be what Jesus was talking about when He said, "Love your enemies...i.e.; "care enough about them to hold them accountable that, perhaps, they may repent - turn around and go a new direction." Confrontation brings with it an opportunity to see each life involved become a Greater Glory to God as a trophy of GRACE (rather than judgement; where there is repentance there is grace - where there is rebellion/no repentance there is a certain expectation of judgement...and does this not test out hearts that we might be used as a vessel of honor for the Master's use that our enemies would find grace and NOT God's judgement; sure tests my heart:o )... Selah.:)

[Voyager]

There is a healthy menu of different philosophies here. Lots to choose from for Abbey. Let me toss in a few more of my thoughts on this subject if I may.

Many of us were strictly taught to "Touch not Mine anointed one" in our spiritually abusive churches. We were also taught to let God deal with the pastor-abuser's wrongdoing, because "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord." The reason this verse is a classic favorite of spiritual abusers is because it lets them get away with murder. Whenever their abuse is exposed they can just sweep it under the rug by saying, "God will deal with me, just as He did with Moses. You just need to trust it into God's hands and let Him take care of it."

If you knew about a child being abused, would you report it to the authorities? How about a rapist on the loose? If you knew that he raped a woman and was walking the streets, would you try to expose him? Why is it then, that we don't treat spiritual abuse in the same manner? Why are the pastor-abusers the only ones who get a "Get out of jail free" card? I would speculate that it is because they have taught us very well that you NEVER, EVER expose the man/woman of God - God is the only one who can do that.

I would conclude that there is no harm done if you were to anonymously warn people, expose, and/or turn in a rapist or child abuser. Why would doing the same to a spiritual abuser be any different? Should we let God take care of the child abusers and rapists on the loose? Are we not trusting God if we take it into our own hands and warn people about them?

Some food for thought.

:cool:

[Voyager]

P.S. - I am not condoning or encouraging anyone to expose their spiritual abuser(s). Like I said in my post above, for most people it is probably best to get away from the abuse and start a new life. However, for those who feel the need to do some exposing - I don't see anything Biblically wrong with it. Another way to look at it would be WWJD? Jesus spent most of His time on earth exposing the spiritual abuse of the Pharisees.

:cool:

[Voyager]

It is the desire to see the conduct stopped so that others are not harmed as well.
Precisely my motive! Sometimes when a frog is in a hot pan of water, they don't know they are getting ready to be boiled alive. They may need a little boost out of the pan. A few anonymous newsletters on the characteristics and traits of a cult can become a big boost for someone who is being brainwashed and duped by a charismatic, manipulative charlatan. Once people see what the healthy norm for a church is in black and white, they can begin to make comparisons with their unhealthy group or leader. I saw this work and set people free. But again, it's not for everybody.

:cool:

[exwitchoz]

***WARNING***

***PERSONAL RANT FOLLOWS***

Many of us were strictly taught to "Touch not Mine anointed one" in our spiritually abusive churches. We were also taught to let God deal with the pastor-abuser's wrongdoing, because "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord." The reason this verse is a classic favorite of spiritual abusers is because it lets them get away with murder. Whenever their abuse is exposed they can just sweep it under the rug by saying, "God will deal with me, just as He did with Moses. You just need to trust it into God's hands and let Him take care of it."

If you knew about a child being abused, would you report it to the authorities? How about a rapist on the loose? If you knew that he raped a woman and was walking the streets, would you try to expose him? Why is it then, that we don't treat spiritual abuse in the same manner? Why are the pastor-abusers the only ones who get a "Get out of jail free" card? I would speculate that it is because they have taught us very well that you NEVER, EVER expose the man/woman of God - God is the only one who can do that.

I would conclude that there is no harm done if you were to anonymously warn people, expose, and/or turn in a rapist or child abuser. Why would doing the same to a spiritual abuser be any different? Should we let God take care of the child abusers and rapists on the loose? Are we not trusting God if we take it into our own hands and warn people about them?

Some food for thought.

:cool:

You got me in from that first line Voyager... ;)

One of the most common lies that Spiritual Abusers tell is that particular persons, usually pastors or evangelists, are somehow more "anointed" than the average Christian. This teaching often coincides with a veiled threat in the form of "touch not mine [the Lord's] anointed," (I Ch. 16:22, Ps. 105:15)

The term "anointing" means to "authorize, or set apart, a person for a particular work or service," (Is.61:1)... The NT is absolutely clear on whom the anointing rests - ALL of Christ's disciples, who are God's very own, set apart and commissioned for service (2 Cor. 1:21)

Despite the crap the avbusers preach the NT does not support the notion of a "greater" anointing based on "position" and such teaching has its origin in a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testaments... (one of my personal hobby horses :o )

Those who push that line either fail to recognize (or just plain IGNORE) the difference between the OT call of a "prophet," where the anointing rested on one man (Is. 61:1, I Sam. 26:9,11, 2 Sam. 22:51, 2 Chr. 6:42), and the NT call of a "priesthood of believers" (I Pet. 2:5,9)

Yes... there are different gifts, but the Spirit [or anointing] remains the same (I Cor. 12)

Spiritual Abusers in the church have long terrorized God's people with "touch not mine anointed" nonsense if anyone dares question them or their teaching... But the fact is that ANYONE - you, me and the bloke next door -who has a gift (and Scripture say we ALL have gifts, 1 Cor. 12:7-11), has a ministry, and anyone who has a ministry, has authority and is anointed.... Yes... ALL of us...

***THIS IS WHERE THE RANT REALLY PICKS UP***

In many churches today (and not just Spiritually Abusive ones) the "laity" are content to warm a pew week after week and assume the opinions of professional clergymen are to be the final authority.... They find comfort in this approach because it is "safe"... and Preachers are content to keep it this way because it secures their position in the church....

How many times have believers been subjected to mishandled scripture with an implicit or explicit "touch not God's anointed" if any dared to question?

This is in STARK contrast to the Biblical admonition to "test the spirits", (1 John 4:1).... The Fear that these ppl engender is not of God and teaching which incorporates psychological intimidation is corrupt and deceptive...

One of the easiest ways to determine what "spirit" motivates a person "in authority" is to question them... A godly man or woman will NOT be offended or become indignant if someone dares to question them and compare what is said with the Word of God because the authority is in the message and not the messenger...

However... if one is motivated by an "authoritarian" spirit of conceit or arrogance, the questioner will soon know it...

Peter warned the elders (pastors and spiritual guides of the church) not to be domineering [arrogant, dictatorial, overbearing] over the flock of God, but to be patterns and models of Christian living (I Pet. 5:3, AMPL)... to see the exact opposite paraded as a 'virtue' makes me sick to my stomach... :mad:

*fume* *huff* *puff*

Now one can expose the error best ...IMHO... by preaching the TRUTH... by sound exposition of the Scriptures... In this way the error not just of one group - but of many Spiritual Abusive groups can be exposed...

Now I know I am not being a good example of it myself atm (raw nerves having been brushed I'm afraid by this whole 'Touch not the Lord's anointed' crap :o :o :o )... but I believe we are exhorted to expose error by preaching the TRUTH in 1 Peter 3:15.... "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope you have. But do this with gentleness and respect..."

***RANT MODE HAS NOW ENDED*** :o

***NORMAL TRANSMISSION WILL NOW BE RESUMED*** ;)

Personal opinion only - take what you think fits... junk the rest...

[exwitchoz]

My apologies to all... Sorry for carrying on like a fruitcake... *blush* :o

I guess that whole "Touch not the Lord's anointed" is atrigger for me...

[SpinningHead]

My apologies to all... Sorry for carrying on like a fruitcake... *blush* :o

I guess that whole "Touch not the Lord's anointed" is atrigger for me...

It's a trigger for a lot of us. :(

[DancingBear]

Well, Abbey, I am going to tell you what I know the Bible says, because we here are all Christians and should want to do what we know Christ wants us to. I have been where you are.... have been badly hurt, wounded, bleeding by churches, church member, friends....:( And I have not always, or maybe even usually, responded appropriately, I'm afraid....

But I do know how we should respond, and that is how I am going to respond to you....LOL With that and some {{{{HUGS}}}}

First, we are never to take vengeance. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay" Ro 12:19, Heb 10:30

So, if it is vengeance, then you should do nothing until your heart is right, because whatever you do, the Lord will not bless your actions. You will not be in His perfect will.

If your heart comes to the place where you have forgiven these people and truly want to help them to come to repentence (note: two issues - you forgiving them and your attitude being one of bringing them back to Christ), then the Bible lays out a very specific path to be followed when people stray. It is not to be done haphazardly, not to be done by our own agenda, but it is to be done in a very orderly manner laid out by God Himself in His Word. And the goal should ALWAYS be to bring them back to Christ.

Another point you brought up was to prevent other people from being taken in as you were. A fine thing to do. Nothing wrong with this goal, as long as you do not sin in so doing. In other words, do not gossip, do not lie, do not be vengeful, do not stretch the truth or talk behind backs, etc, etc. It must all be done in love and kindness, which, at the moment may be too difficult. There may come a time when you WILL be able to do this, but that time may or may not be now. I have a suggestion here. Find a good, solid church in the area, perhaps a sound Baptist or Wisconsin Lutheran or some other solid church that you know is at least a solid Christian church, even if you don't agree 100% with it's doctrine. Go to them. Tell them what happened to you. Chances are if they are from the area they already know About that church. Tell them you don't want it to happen to others and see if they know of a ministry already in existance that is dealing with the problem. There may already be one, but because you were so sheltered and blinded by this church, you didn't know of it. If not, perhaps they will help you find someone who might be willing to help... a pastor or someone else. Just a thot. There may not be a local group but you don't know unless you check.

As to the blog, it sounds like a good idea. Keep it private when you want to really vent and scream so that you don't sin against anyone.

Remember, the Lord admonishes us : But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

He asks soooooo much of us poor, weak, humans, doesn't he? :eek: :mad:

I get soooooo tired and I feel like I let Him down so often!!! :eek:

But then I remember that He knows my weaknesses and He knows my strengths, and He forgives me, but He still wants me to try.....LOL

More {{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}

[DancingBear]

As to the Lord's anointed....

That's why I don't agree with pastors having to be ordained by man. Just because a man goes to school and finishes some course work and gets a degree doesn't mean he has a gift of the Spirit or that he knows how to be a pastor/teacher. He is no more anointed by that ordination than by my Forestry degree or especially by any psychology degree.. with an emphasis in Christian religion...lol.

And, back to my earlier post, it is a condition of the heart, to be done in meekness and humbleness, just like anything that is truly of the Lord....LOL. Just my take on it all...:o :o

[abbey]

I must admit im a little over-whelmed with all the responses--however i have read them all. But as im am down with a tooth-ache, my thinking cap aint on straight to properly address all the responses.

Perhaps revenge was the wrong word? Exposure is more fitting. What comforted me tho, is most all of you had the same reaction--its normal and human to want to inflict pain and confusion back to ones that have done it to you. Yet God calls us to a different way of dealing with our enemies. I must choose gods way. Yet when I consiously forgive, days later my anger indeed wells up and i find my self yelling to the air, swearing at these folks. they messed up gods character for me, and that is going to be a long rebuilding process that frankly i wish i couldve avoided. my burdens are heavy enough without false or misguided teachings. They put deep fears into me--wheter this was intended or misguided i havent figured it out!

Voyager, i think what you did in exposing the church was the right thing. i believe it saved a lot of people from the damage that coulda been done!

Jean-luc, i agree with all this 'doorway' non-sense. No Biblical references to these modern philosiphies. ive been lurking and posting over at SaM all day and am particulary interested in the post Justice of God in the heresy section.

I guess ive decided to let God handle these folks. They seemed so sincere yet something was fishy, wrong, weird...i sensed it early, but felt that God wanted me IN...maybe. I mean when 4 people continually tell you that you have parts and God is going to help you, no matter how bizarre they sound, when done in gods name, you perk up your ears and wonder.

And to the pm person, naw im not ready, if ever to expose em yet. let god do it...

Thx friends, all your suggestions are being processed in my tooth-ached head. :)
Peace out!

[Voyager]

I must choose gods way. Yet when I consiously forgive, days later my anger indeed wells up and i find my self yelling to the air, swearing at these folks. they messed up gods character for me, and that is going to be a long rebuilding process that frankly i wish i couldve avoided. my burdens are heavy enough without false or misguided teachings. They put deep fears into me--wheter this was intended or misguided i havent figured it out!

I am confident that 27 out of 30 members of this forum could have written this exact same paragraph to describe the experience(s) that brought us to this forum.

:(

[Patty]

I have had always had a strong desire for revenge for what those people did to me and my family, especially my children.

Initially, I was so afraid of them I had no courage to do anything. But boy did I think about it, almost constantly. Also, I felt that the biblical verse that says "vengence is my, says the Lord" was something that I should heed. Well, the verse kept me in check all these years, and I never did lash out, but I really haven't seen any reprecussions to the 2 churches that threw us out. (they were in collusion with one another) In fact one of them just had a big, flashy article in our local paper proclaiming it "cool and rockin'." I ask the Lord where is the vengence? That was hard for me to take. 2 steps forward and one step back.

[Carmen]

I agree Voyager, and could add that my picture of the church was messed up more than my impression of God. I don't trust much anymore, am looking for new definitions for church, for interpersonal relationships, for Christian living.

At the beginning I was very angry, and did want to strike out. When I was SA'd, it was ironically at a time that I was researching certain unscriptural doctrines (like word-faith, dominionism...), to expose them. I was in the process of setting up a website, so I included an account of the abuse on the site, with no personal names except mine. Later I decided to include the name of the kind of church I was SA'd at, not out of spite or anything, but because I had heard that others had been abused in similar churches and in similar ways. I could have included real names in the account and slander, but I did not. I included the written correspondence between the pastor and myself, and my views on the incident, references to works on cults and scriptural references.

Some think that the fact that I criticized the incident publicly at all was not a Christian thing to do, I disagree. I think that exposure of the incident itself might help others that may suffer from the same situation, maybe even help them avoid it. Do I want revenge? No. Do I hope God bothers his conscience so he can repent and take action toward reconciliation? Yes. Do I hope for justice? Yes. Justice has two sides. 1. Punishment - generally by God, but may also include restitution to the offended Christian, or other punishment if a human law is broken. 2. Mercy - based on repentance and the will for reconciliation. Justice also implies that actions have consequences.

In my case I would hope that other pastors get wind of what happened and contact the one that abused me asking why he has not made any move toward reconciliation, since I apologized immediately after the incident. I included enough details so that anyone that wants to would have enough info to make a search on who that person could be. I think that all should know that although he knew how much pain I was in, that he did not move a finger to help me. He humiliated me, then stepped on me, left me to lie there and cope (thinking I was completely alone, luckily I wasn't) and has never apologized for it, never acknowledged that his actions were even the least bit wrong. What I wrote is not slanderous, it is the truth. I also encourage others that would address that pastor to be merciful to him, should he regret what he did and actively do something to improve his behavior.

I have forgiven, but thinking about the incident does bring anger up again, I'm a sticker for justice. If anyone did the same thing to a friend or even acquaintance, I would not hesitate to help the victim and expose the abuser.
Some say to wait on God, I think that there are times to do this and times when God expects us to act. In my case, I felt it necessary to act.

As far as journaling goes, I am currently in an abusive situation (not SA) and journal a lot. It helps me get my thoughts sorted out and helps me put things in perspective. Without the journaling I would diminish what happened to me and just accept it as "sub-normal," but not abnormal. I would also forget a lot, which it may not be good to forget if I am to act appropriately on what happened to me. I have a plan of action, but need to stay steady to follow through on it.

[SueJean]

Hi folks--happy sunday!

I have been out of the cult since late August. I'm not sure yet if God is going to strike me dead for leaving his supposed will. This was the kind of fear generated from the group. When i mentioned leaving this group the leader asked,"don't you fear God? He will chatise you" and basically I was fed that dire consequenses are in my horizan. My families future too-- o and yes, im filled with demons. The leader said due to my hedonstic, sex, drugs and rock-n-roll lifestyle that i let a lot of demons in.

Well, i know a number of Christians who were involed in rock-n-roll and they dont seem to be foaming at the mouth with demonic entities.

I can say that I praise God for the internet because the info I have read about cults all seem to be similar to mine. It appears as tho all these cults use the same scripture and techniques to ground a person in fear. I was so scared to leave that group---only thru this forum was I able to gain the courage to escape. So again, Thank you Jesus for rescuing me thru the net!

By to my point: When you folks left and were able to see the lies, intimidation, guilt and fear tactics, did you feel a need to get back at the church/group? I know this mans (leaders) website, his net adventures and so fourth. i am so tempted to start a campaign against him. To expose his SA to others who may respect him or who may end up in his zany, dangerous cult. He tends to recruit thru the internet. He promises god's help thru warfare and then convinces them that theyre a multiple personality! He believes that almost all people have a shattered spirit (mpd/did) and that we can only be whole when all the personalities are unified in Christ. I thought is was/is hogwash---but tell me folks, what the heck does this man gain from doing this? in fact, any theories on why people want to control people spiritually? its so dang weird to see someone holding others in bondage all in the name of God?!?

Anyhow, is it dangerous for me to expose? Shall I just sit back and let God take care of them? Did you folks feel a need to expose your SA abusers?

Thx, you guyz are a blessing to me!
Ab

Abby,
Having the time to think about your post, I thought that I'd share my experiences. When I walked out of SA May '05, I was in shock. As the days turned into weeks only a few people contacted me. To be precise, people contacted my husband. That was a clue to me that something more than I already thought was terribly amiss w/this group. I replied thanking them for inquiring after our welfare, following my husband's instructions. At the new fellowship we started to attend, a member handed to me "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse." My dau-in-law had me read "Toxic Faith." As more time lapsed, any person who contacted us...my husband, I disregarded my husband's instructions. I told them what was going on. No one has contacted us since.
There is a Jewish saying, "Knowledge is light." I agree. I have learned from personal experience, though, that I change when I feel the heat.
I don't regard sharing what we know w/others as revenge. It's because we still care. That part of us was not smashed, crushed, squeezed out of existence. That is our heart.

[wizeone]

Revenge

This is the person that drove past a sign put up by her old church and was struck with the overwhelming urge to want to go back and grafitti it. Now I have never grafitted anything in my life. I wanted to go back to my old path, actually I wanted to go as far down the LHP as possible.....

One of my biggest things that has worked for me, and has put the word out there about these people is having a blog. I have a user name and anoymous thingee..... It didnt go down well with the church, infact I got lambasted by one of the pastors. but hey thats life. But I get lots of hits, and some from people searching for info about the group

Vengence is Gods, and as much as I would like to seek revenge on these people, I have to let that in Gods hands, because it would destroy me... I am still tempted to go public, however I am not sure about that yet.....

Pray about it, and ask God what he thinks you should do.... Praying for you though

[Carmen]

Welcome, wizeone. :) Sounds like the blog has taken it public, despite the "anonymous thingee".

Are you managing well?