You Cannot Give What You Do Not Have

[Voyager]

Six years ago, I left an abusive church (which many of you already know). I really shouldn't say that the church was abusive, because it was the pastor who was abusive. The people in the church were actually the most caring, compassionate, God-loving people I had ever met. However, people started leaving because they could not tolerate the pastor's abuse. Once you left, you were written of as "demonized" and headed for hell.

Since I left that church, I have not joined another one. I have deeply missed the support system that the church provided for my family and I. For the 12 years that I was there, it was as if I finally had the family support that I never had growing up. I have found that it is very difficult to be supportive of others when you don't have anyone to be supportive of you. Family networks are there for a reason. They provide a sense of community. Churches are capable of providing a support system for those who don't have families. Unfortunately, many of us who desperately need that support cannot bring ourselves to turn to a church for it after having been abused in the last one we attended.

My mom has recently asked me to start visiting my step-sister who is in a mental institution battling with schizophrenia. She is now 26, and has been institutionalized since the age of 14. As much as I would like to call or visit her, I cannot bring myself to do it. I haven't been able to ever since I left my former church in 1998. My mom has also tried many times to get me to help out my brother's kids who are now becoming adults. Their dad (my brother) is in prison, and his kids seem to be following in his footsteps. I haven't seen my dad since I was 18-years-old when I first met him after his 15-year stint in prison.

That's the extent of my immediate family. My wife's dad is a convicted pedophile (so we stay away from him), and her mom and sisters live out of state. The only one in her family that she ever talks to is her brother once every three months or so. Other than that, we don't really have any support system at all. We lost all our friends in the church that we left in 1998, and before that we had both cutoff all friends outside the church (due to the twisting of the Scripture "Jesus came to bring a sword").

Since I was the oldest son in my family, I believe my mom has always tried to get me to fill the void that her two ex-husbands left in her life. She has expected me to share in her cause of supporting her kids emotionally and financially. Since I quit doing that, the whole family has basically labelled me arrogant and "too good" for them. I don't have any contact with any of them except my mom now. I had felt very guilty about this until just recently. I finally came to the conclusion that I cannot give what I don't have.

I have no example of a father to go by, so that part of my life is missing. When I go to look for it, it's just not there. The only example I have was my step-dad who came along when I was 11-years-old. He tried to buy our affections by purchasing gifts for us after beating us instead of supplying any love or concern for us. I certainly do not want to follow that example. To even fathom trying to offer emotional or financial support to my mom's fatherless kids is beyond my ability. I just don't have any extra fathering within me to give to anyone. I never could fill the void that my dad left. I cannot do it for my brother or his kids. I cannot fill the void that my step-dad left for his institutionalized daughter. I am still looking for someone to do it for me.

I realize that I cannot blame someone for doing their best, and my mom did her very best with the best of intentions. There are millions of fatherless children in the world - it's about a 50/50 ratio. None of their mothers deserved to have their child's father abandon them - but they did. The end result is a bunch of fatherless children trying to become fathers. Most of them fail. That's because they cannot give what they do not have.

I know that a lot of people would tell me that "God is a Father to the fatherless", give me a few complimentary Scriptures, and tell me to move on and get over it. That's all fine and dandy, but the fact is, God isn't here to help me. God uses people. The people are supposed to be His church. But His church failed the task, so I remain without any type of support from God's people. Without it, I feel barren and unable to be supportive of anyone. It's taken six years for me realize why I feel so empty and unable to be there for anyone - even my own kids at times. It's because I cannot give what I do not have.

It's like an electric lawn mower. If you cut off its source of power, it won't accomplish the task that it was made for. It is capable of mowing a lawn, but if you cut off its source of power, it will just sit there looking like a lawn mower. It's the same with the fatherless fathers. They are capable of being a father, but without a support system to replace the father and/or family that they never had, they will just sit there looking like a father.

This puts me in a catch-22 situation. I know that I need the support that a church could offer me, but I cannot bring myself to attend one. I really despise the idea of ever going to a church again. It's as if the grocery store had an electric fence around it. You need the food, but to get it would be dangerous - you may get burned. In addition, the food is all rotten. When you eat it, you get nauseous and want to vomit. That's how I feel when I try to attend a church.

Oh well, I'm just ranting again. Like Willow said, it's better to get it out than to leave it in. I really feel better getting this out. Sometimes I process and troubleshoot things by writing. I feel now that I have a much better understanding of what I am dealing with. Maybe I could find a college class on parenting or something, or even a group of father's who meet together (is there such a thing?). That way I could give out of the support that I receive from the class or group.

Does that make sense to anyone?

:cool:

[Pinkie Pie]

Hi Voyager,

Yes it makes perfect sense to me. The void I have is with my mom. She wasn't there for me emotionally or physically growing up. She was also very unpredictable in how she responded to us kids - what was okay for us to do one day, would result in extreme verbal abuse the next. So here I am, 44 years old, never married, never had kids but I thank God now because I wouldn't have known how to mother them.

Where you are now is where I was 2 years ago. I started posting on this site my anger and bitterness and disappointment and rage at my mom. (I was "CL" back then). Including my anger and mistrust of God.

That was the beginning of receiving healing. Thank God no one here lectured me or threw scriptures at me. That's what I love about this forum. You are who you are, and accepted for who you are.

What I am about to say is in the hopes of giving you a glimmer of hope, nothing more. You do not have to feel empty always, you CAN get what you need. God has done it with me. It seems like it started happening after I posted my true feelings towards my mom on this forum. He did it even in the midst of my anger towards HIM and distrust of Him. And He did it with a real live human person.

I used to HATE it when people would tell me that God would meet all my needs and say He would hug me and nurture me and be a mom to me. I would say, "I need Jesus with skin on." (In fact, I said it here.) And He has given me that person in my Pastor's wife. And I know He loved me (and loves me) even in the midst of my anger (which I still feel at times, but it is lessening). And I don't think you have to go to church for God to send that person into your life. That's just how He chose to do it for me.

Your feelings are SOOOOO valid. You have every right to feel the way you do, and I suspect (or at least I hope) that you know that you have a right to feel that way. Why is the Body of Christ so afraid of anger??????? It's like we feel like it is wrong to feel rage and betrayal and anger towards those who should have been taking care of us when we were most vulnerable.

I hope something I said helped you, take what you want, if anything, and leave the rest.

[Beloved of God]

(((Voyager)))

Can we be your support for awhile? Until you find another support system? Or while you are in another support system?

Well, even if you say "no" we can still pray for you.

Thank you, Voyager for sharing.........I, at least, did not know much of your story...

[Voyager]

This forum has been a great support for me off and on. Right now it seems somewhat stable. But when it goes "south" it can become very counter-productive to healing. I hope that never happens again, but I can't rely on that. How committed to an anonymous message board can anyone really be? It's the committed relationships in our lives that soothe life's rough edges. When you find out that a group of people can sever in one day a committment that took 12 years to build, you can lose trust in people. If it weren't for the committed relationship that I have with my wife, I might wonder if it were even possible to hold on to one.

I do thank God for my wife. Her mom gave her a decent example of how to be a mom, so she seems to be comfortable in her motherly role. That has provided a great depth of stability for my daughters in spite of the lack of outside support. She is well disciplined and tries to instill that in the girls. My mom was easy-going and passive, and my step-dad was abusive. Therefore, I never really had any consistent discipline. It's hard to give what you don't have. You cannot pass on a baton that was never handed to you.

I'm glad you found some support Pinkie Pie. It doesn't take much. Even just a person to have lunch with a few days a week that I could talk about parenting with would be nice. We all want to be normal. Normal to most of us is what we grew up with. I grew up with either passivity, abuse, or having my affections purchased. I know enough not to be abusive, but the passivity thing still hounds me - and it can make your kids manipulative. I am trying to find a better "normal" than what I was raised with, and some form of parental training support group would be nice.

Does it seem weird to any of you that we are trained so well in school for everything except for parenting? Many kids graduate high school, and then quickly become parents. Those who didn't have good parenting haven't got a clue how to be a good parent. They find out that their 12 years of school didn't train them to do what they will spend the rest of their life doing. What's up with that? I guess we're all supposed to learn that at home.

:confused:

[Willow]

This is kind of a silly idea, but I'm going to post it anyway.
Voyager, have you ever thought about putting an ad in the classifieds to develop a parenting support group? You don't have to know everything.... just provide the opportunity for folks to get together and share and support. You could clarify that you are not the expert, just the facilitator.

I've considered starting a group called "Unchurch" here. I'm not sure I'm ready for anything with the word "church" in it though. I do think about it from time to time.

Dunno... it might not be a good idea at all... but it popped in my head so I wrote it.

[Voyager]

I've considered starting a group called "Unchurch" here.

Actually, I have seriously considered starting something like that too. I'm sure that a lot of spiritually abused people would come out of the woodwork to join. However, I'm not sure how it would work with a bunch of non-trusting, wounded people. It's bad enough online when someone accuses me of being an "abuser" just because I am somewhat forthright about things. I cannot imagine what kind of hell I would go through trying to bring a bunch of "battered sheep" together.

I would love to have a place to meet on Sundays where my kids could play with other kids and get interaction with other adult figures. However, the thought of taking them to a church and having some Sunday School teacher put the "fear of God" into them by telling them they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus doesn't seem to be very appealing to me right now.

:cool:

[Beloved of God]

Hi Voyager! Just to let you know that I have been reading your posts. I am glad that you shared more of your history with those of us who are fairly new. A tragic past you have had. I recognize your woundedness in all sincereity, Voyager...

Well, I just wanted you to know that you have been on someone's heart the past few weeks.

I am so grateful that you have the apparently wonderful wife that you have!

P.S. Yours and Willow's idea of church for the unchurched sounds like it could be quite wild :eek: But who knows........maybe it would work. Maybe those thoughts might come to pass someday :)

[Beloved of God]

I just had another thought. Reg could be the facilitator! Wasn't it him that did the "poll" earlier this year about how many attend church :confused: Can't remember. I was Princess then. I've had another identity crisis since then :eek:

Speaking of identity crisis, my husband was telling me about a lady at his work place who changed her name from "Linda" to "River Coyote"!!! I mean this lady did it legally! Now I love Turtles name and Worn Shoeleather and Hornblower but "River Coyote"??? Legally??? Whoaaaa :eek: :eek: :eek:

LOL (I hope that this does not offend anyone :confused:

[Reg]

I just had another thought. Reg could be the facilitator! Wasn't it him that did the "poll" earlier this year about how many attend church :confused: Can't remember. I was Princess then. I've had another identity crisis since then :eek:


Sorry B of G. It wasn't me. I can't remember either. :confused:

[Beloved of God]

Now Reg, I've been wanting to say something to you for a long time. ;) . Ever since I saw the pictures of your "cabin" (I believe that it was) on line, I wanted you to know something.

Where I live, all year round, in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range, is just as beautiful as the pictures of the cabin, IMHO :D

We have beautiful lakes, rivers, pines, birches and it is just georgeous here. It did, however get to about 11 degrees in Tahoe last night :( but we live down the mountain from there and does not get nearly as much snow or cold. Only once in awhile do we, in our county get a "heavy" snowfall. :rolleyes:

I would not mind taking another trip to Florida, tho, one of these days :)

[Kerrin]

I can so relate to you and your experiences. Although not a father, I am a mother of a daughter whose father abandoned us. I waited 10 years to re-marry, thinking if I married someone our "pastor" approved of I would be ok! We didn't last a year. He dropped me like a hot potato when i got sick, (literally dropped me at the E.R!), and packed his bags.
I continued attending our church, so did he, even though we were not living together. I agreed to counselling by the church. After a while it started to get really old that it was all my fault. They continually pat him on the back and say how BLESSED iam to have him. My 13 year old had spinal surgery early this year, I spent 2 months with her in the hospital. We saw our Pastor once! We heard from no-one.
I am done with church for now. I am so scared of being hurt again. So tired of being told i am not submossive enough, too disobedient etc... I thought i had found the family i never had in the church, a safe haven to just be me. I was so wrong. I think they think if they ignore me i will go away. It's working.
I really miss a "family". Am so confused now.
The silence is deafening.
Today is a bad day.
Blessings, Kerrrin.

[Kerrin]

Thanks Pinkie pie,
What you posted helped. My mum (mom), has bi-polar disorder with schizophrenic tendancies and for some reason she has abused me all my life. Not my brother, who incidentally died of AIDS, nor my sister. Always me!! mY dad said she was always trying to live her life through me, (we are both Nurses). I don't know she seems hell bent on destroying me if that makes sense. I don't see her any more. She has too much control over me. Thats probably my fault but I don't know how to stand up to her manipulations. She's very scary.

I am so lost today.

I desperatley need a job. You would think there would be no shortage for R.N's. I can't work shift work because I have no-one to care for my daughter. Please someone pray for me that God will give me just what I need!
I have been crying out to Him, and I can't hear him. Maybe I'm not listening because I'm getting desperate.
HELP!!!!

[Willow]

OH Kerrin... I remember when I had just moved to Nashville by myself and lost the job I moved here for. I was sooo frightened. I am sensing that same panic in your post. There is no way I can comprehend the details of your situation, but there has to be a job somewhere, somehow for you. Maybe not in the same community... maybe in another region? I will pray for you to find the right job. Don't be afraid to move away and start fresh. From another post, I think I remember you pondering that possibility. Some organizations may pay for you to move.

Take gentle care
Willow

[Voyager]

Kerrin,

What kind of injury does you daughter have? You mentioned something about spinal. Does she require 24/7 care? Just curious about your situation.

That is terrible about your church. It's amazing how churches want to try to "counsel" people who are not compatible to try to keep them together. I can see if a couple that was together for 15 years and there were mutual children at stake and other things. But if something doesn't work out to begin with, why do they try to make it something it isn't just out of religious obligation?

I'm sorry you're feeling down today. I hope and pray that tomorrow is better for you.

:cool:

[Pinkie Pie]

Hi Kerrin,

I'm so glad my post helped you. I will be praying for you and your daughter. I hear the hurt and cries for help in your post. Stay connected to the forum. You will come through this, even though it doesn't feel like it right now.

[Reg]

Now Reg, I've been wanting to say something to you for a long time. ;) . Ever since I saw the pictures of your "cabin" (I believe that it was) on line, I wanted you to know something.

BofG, we call it a cottage up here in Canada. :D

Where I live, all year round, in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range, is just as beautiful as the pictures of the cabin, IMHO :D

We have beautiful lakes, rivers, pines, birches and it is just georgeous here. It did, however get to about 11 degrees in Tahoe last night :( but we live down the mountain from there and does not get nearly as much snow or cold. Only once in awhile do we, in our county get a "heavy" snowfall. :rolleyes:

I spent a week in Lake Tahoe back in the late 1970's. It is a beautiful place and something like Muskoka. Muskoka means "Big Rock" in Indian I believe. It is located in the Cambrian shield area where there is a large outcrop of bedrock visible everywhere. That's what is distinctive about Muskoka. Goldie Hawn and her husband Kirk Russell have their cottage there on Lake Rosseau.

I'm thinking of opening it up again to some here for a ftf get-together next Labour Day longweekend. We tried it this year for the August longweekend up here but it didn't work out. Of those who planned on coming most cancelled and it was only myself and a couple of ladies who where going to make it so I thought it best to cancel. So, perhaps we can think about it for next year. That gives it a lot of time for people to plan it and commit.

I would not mind taking another trip to Florida, tho, one of these days :)

I guess you know I go down there every winter in February. :p Where do you go there?

[Sheep]

Yes, Voyager. It all makes sense. I like your lawn mower word picture. It really irritates me to no end when Christians would tell me that "God could be my husband" when we were having marital problems a couple years ago. If that were the case, then I didn't need to be married anymore! :D Maybe God brought you and your wife together to minister to each other and support one another throughout your life's healing journey...

Sheep

[Voyager]

Today went well. We visited my cousins that I grew up with until I was 11-years-old after my dad abandoned me at the age of two. They really opened up to me about their mom's suicide when they were young. I never knew any of the details, and it has not been apparent that any of them were hurting inside - they all seem like they have it so together. Well, I am not glad they are hurting - but I am glad that I'm not the only one.

They embraced me today, and it almost felt as though they adopted me into their family. My daughters had a great time playing with their 14-year-old daughter, and we all talked about our childhood hurts and the solutions we have pursued over the years. It was like a breath of fresh air. I feel like my dead electric lawn mower got a good battery charge.

It just goes to show that you can't give up hope. I have been searching for a situation like this for six years. It's exactly what I attended a church for 12 years to find, and then walked away empty-handed. We all need a support network. We just have to keep on searching for it until we find what we need. If we don't find it where we are currently looking, we have to cut our losses short and look elsewhere.

I know that a lot of you are hurting tonight, and you need a shoulder to lean on. I am not going to tell you to lean on God, because to me that sounds like a copout. Sometimes we need a human shoulder to lean on. Some of you didn't have anyone to lean on today, and I know what that feels like. I have spent several of the last few Thanksgivings alone and depressed. I really needed this.

I have something to be thankful for today, and I wanted to share it with all of you - my friends. I am thankful for all of you today. I am thankful for this forum. I am thankful that I can come here and be myself without hiding behind a mask and seeking approval. This is helping me to learn to be who I am without making an excuse for it.

:cool:

[Willow]

((((((Voyager))))))!

Wow!!! What a cool breakthrough!
Thanks for sharing the great news.

Your sis in Christ,
Willow

[Pinkie Pie]

Voyager, I am so happy for you!!!!! :) :) :)

[Kerrin]

[QUOTE=Voyager]Kerrin,

What kind of injury does you daughter have? You mentioned something about spinal. Does she require 24/7 care? Just curious about your situation.

That is terrible about your church.
Only just read yor post. My daughter had a titanium rod put in her back an a rib removed to help fuse her upper spine to correct a severe scoliosis. When I say care for her, she is unable to do much other than sit in a straight-backed chair or lie flat, carry no more than 5kg. She can go to school but I need to drive her and pick her up. She is not allowed to particpate in any sport for at least a year. Fortunatly she is a straight A student but the sport thing bigs her!! She still gets alot of pain but she is improving thanks to our gracious God.

I think it "sucks" about my church too. I think their "style" of counselling, based on a very catholic model, has only added to our problems and confusion.
The teaching is so very focused on submission, but not the way our Lord intended.
Their preaching is "go home and what your husband says goes!!)
Since I left, ( and he too now), the fog is clearing, I think. You really made some pieces fall together for me about seperating out the "religious" from loving "unconditionally". It made me think more about my reactions rather than responses to him. Most importantly you made me take a hard look at where i was at in the forgiveness process. It's still 'Foggy' :confused: but it's clearing. :)

[The Prairie Tortoise]

I know that I need the support that a church could offer me, but I cannot bring myself to attend one. I really despise the idea of ever going to a church again. It's as if the grocery store had an electric fence around it. You need the food, but to get it would be dangerous - you may get burned. In addition, the food is all rotten. When you eat it, you get nauseous and want to vomit. That's how I feel when I try to attend a church.
Thanks for saying that, Voyager. That's exactly how I feel. Every Saturday I make up my mind to go to the local Anglican church, but when Sunday comes I just can't bear the thought of going. You have to put on a mask in all the churches I've visited and I'm so tired of it. But if you don't put on the mask they hurt you.

I'm glad about your cousins - that's great.