I was wondering.... [Archive] - Christian Recovery Forums

yeshua'smags

11-27-2006, 02:08 PM

Anna Marta

11-27-2006, 02:28 PM

hornblower

11-27-2006, 02:37 PM

I was wondering about some comments that have been made on here and I wanted to ask some questions if y'all don't mind. I'm JUST ASKING!! For crying out loud I don't want to start another war. But if we are gonna throw this stuff out there we need to be prepared to answer questions about it without getting all defensive, right?

Several people have stated that they do not believe everthing the Bible says, and, if I'm not mistaken, that some of it should be ignored, it was written by imperfect men, and so on. So here are my questions, if you don't mind.....

If you say something to me and I write it down exactly as you say it, does it matter that I'm imperfect? If I tell you a story about someone and it jives with what I know about that person, does that make it untrue or unreliable?

If you believe that the Bible has errors then how do you believe any of it? How do you pick and choose what's in error?

THIS IS NOT A JUDGEMENT!!! I am JUST ASKING!!!

I have not got the answers for anything but heres my own belief on this subject. I do believe everything that is written in the bible. Im sorry if that offends anyone but I do believe it. However i do not pretend to understand most of it at all. The people writing it were no more perfect than I am I dont think that is the point. The bible says they were 'inspired' to write. I believe that many people take scriptures out of context and make rules fro themselves and others out of what they believe.
Heres my take on doing such a thing...........its a free country (here anyway)knock yourself out!
I try to have an open understanding and always seek to learn more and more truth. God is the truth. Now if someone is going to ask 'what is truth?' Thats when I would send them to the place where it is written 'what is truth?'
Kind of like if you have to ask you dont know the answer.
I was not here for the blow up whatever it was..............thank goodness. Why cant we all see that love is the right answer.
Lets get along and somehow make peace. Im so sorry Voyager that you have been hurt in the past by churches pouncing you with maybe a ton of scripture. Thats so bad so wrong to do something like that. Ive had it done to me a hthousand times and its so destructive in a million ways. The thing to remember is a fundamental truth in my book anyway that JESUS is the WORD. What that scripture means to me is that He loves us, enough to die for us a horrible death. He didnt come to condemn us but to save us. He wants us to love each other too. Its simple its not hard. Its only hard when we make it hard and thats what people do who pronounce scripture on others trying to make them be this or that.........
On the other hand so many times people are only trying to do the best that they can and they are trying to help us heal and get better and this is the only way they know of helping us do that so to them they think scripture will heal us. Sometimes it feels right, sometimes its devastating to us.
Weve got to make allowances for that to happen and understand that we are all different from each other we are NOT GOD!
For me thats the bottom line. I cannot FIX anybody ever only God can do that. Sometimes the best thing is to pray for someone and love them just let them have the time to get it all oput and let the thing heal and theres no time table on healing someone its a God thing.
I really do wish that people could see the bible is not here to hurt anyone its people that hurt people, not the word. The bible is only a book. It doesnt have special powers. Now I would be burned on a big time cross for saying this at that church nevertheless I do feel God has shown me this, so if you can bear it, this is what I do believe.

Now what I mean when I say that is that it takes mankinds wisdom on what is written to apply whats there at the right time and place and spoken from a heart of love with compassion not a teaching egotistical anything. So many of us seem to have had that done to us.
I have seen twisted scripture literally break a family in two and cause years and years of sorrow and for what????????? Somebody forgot to look the stupid thing up, it doesnt even say what they said it did. It was spoken at my husbands fathers funeral. I didnt even know Jesus at the time but I thought now that is really weird that Jesus would say that...........well as it turns out he didnt say it at all.

Please if you do have these feelings against the bible I would ask you to please give that one scripture some time to just ask God what does this really mean? What does it mean when it says the Jesus is the Word?
You see the word the real word is alive and its active it heals us and loves us it doesnt condemn us ever!
If you can believe only one thing let it be that.

jimsmuse

11-27-2006, 02:59 PM

hornblower

11-27-2006, 03:19 PM

..."the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".......

What part do you throw out? The Messianic prophecies are all in the so called "Old Testament" and, well, if we believe in "Christ and Him crucified" and nothing else.....where did we get that information.......and understand there have been times when that is all I "knew" or could rely on.
this really does need to be lovingly discussed and delved into!

Anna Marta, please forgive my ignorance but what is "higher criticism"?

I love you guys....

You dont throw any of it out! I want the baby and the boy and the grown man, and please God I'd even like the water, the part that isnt dirty with my own sinfulness. I want it all but I dont know it all, and may never until He gets me there.

Voyager

11-27-2006, 03:28 PM

It is a well known fact that starting around the year 300BC a non-Christian named Constantine put together a group of scholars to determine which of the 600-some-odd religious books should be in the Bible. By the time they were done, they decided that only 80 of these books should be in the Bible. This number was later reduced to 66 books by church leaders in the early 1600's when the King James Translation was created. One of my questions is, what happened to the lost books of the Bible? Also, who gave these men the authority to decide which books should and should not be included in the Bible?

Tradition tells us that the current 66 books of the Bible are "the Word of God". I never questioned any of this until several years after I left my spiritually abusive church and began thinking for myself again. My experience caused me to become skeptical about things that I never would have questioned before. This started when I began trying to sort through the doctrines that I was taught in the abusive church. I wanted to know which of them were from God, and which were not.

I am by no means an atheist. I believe in God, but I'm really not sure what to believe anymore. I am not someone who wants to try to hijack anyone's faith. I'm just not as gullible as I used to be before I was duped by abusive religion. I guess you could call me a "doubting Thomas" now. I read the commands in Leviticus chapter 20 that tell believers to murder gays, sorcerers, adulterers, non-virgin brides, etc., and I wonder if God really commanded people to do this - or was it simply the beliefs of the person who wrote the Book of Leviticus? There are many other passages in the Bible such as the commandment by the Apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians that says women cannot talk in church that make me wonder how much of the Bible really represents the heart of God.

I used to teach Adult Sunday School in a church of 500 members, and I diligently read the Bible with a sincere, seeking heart. But after the abuse happened, I started questioning things. This was not a process that I consciously decided to do - it just happened. After years of research and studying, I can no longer bring myself to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

Someone asked if we can pick and choose which parts of the Bible we should believe and obey. My thoughts on this are that we should either accept it all as the Word of God and obey Leviticus 20 and other controversial passages, or we have to decide which passages may have simply been influenced by the writer's own beliefs and culture.

The one doctrine that I do hold onto is that Jesus died for my sins to make me right with God. I think that if we use this as the common denominator that we as Christians rally around, there is not really much to debate. However, someone may ask me how can I believe this if I don't believe other parts. I guess I would reply that it is easier for me to believe that Jesus died for my sins than it is to believe that God would require His people to murder gays, sorcerers, adulterers, non-virgin brides, etc.

That's my two-cents anyway. I am not trying to start a debate over this, but since Mags brought it up, I thought I would toss my opinions into the ring. I would love to hear what other forum members have to say about this topic. I try to stay very open-minded about this.

:cool:

hornblower

11-27-2006, 03:58 PM

[QUOTE=Voyager;42744]It is a well known fact that starting around the year 300BC a non-Christian named Constantine put together a group of scholars to determine which of the 600-some-odd religious books should be in the Bible. By the time they were done, they decided that only 80 of these books should be in the Bible. This number was later reduced to 66 books by church leaders in the early 1600's when the King James Translation was created. One of my questions is, what happened to the lost books of the Bible? Also, who gave these men the authority to decide which books should and should not be included in the Bible?

Tradition tells us that the current 66 books of the Bible are "the Word of God". I never questioned any of this until several years after I left my spiritually abusive church and began thinking for myself again. My experience caused me to become skeptical about things that I never would have questioned before. This started when I began trying to sort through the doctrines that I was taught in the abusive church. I wanted to know which of them were from God, and which were not.
Ok Voyager thats fine and I dont even pretyend to have one single answer for you this all may be so true im sure that it is. I just choose to believe god is bigger than human beings thats all. But just because i choose to believe god can control what it written in there and let some of it go doesnt make it true. Suppose the most important part is gone! Suppose there is none of it that is true really I mean it!
Suppose its all a lie and Jesus didnt really have a virgin birth and He wasnbt even crucified for my sins at all but he was just some guy some prophet something or other. Believe me I have been there asked these questions about all of it over and over again............Im here to tell you go ahead and ask away and dont be ashamed of it you shouldnt be ashamed of asking about it. I have. I will. Its ok it doesnt hurt God at all to ask. In fact Jesus asked it of Peter remember?
Who do you say that I am Peter?
Peter replied that he believed that Jesus is the Son of God.
Why Jesus asked him.
Who else do we have that comes with the message of eternal life?
Nobody!
Christianity is the only religion that gets you forgiven. I need that! The other stuff is not important the truth will be revealed believe me or believe Him sooner or later we will all die and we will all know soon enough. Its all about faith and nothing else. Like I said Jesus didnt say you had to believe in a book. You dont. You are my brother i know you are because you said you are and thats all I need to know. What else you believe, that, maybe we can agree or disagree, it doesnt really matter what we believe about any of it. Thats all knowledge that God will be the judge of not me or you.
You are His son that He loves dearly and thats all there is to it. Nobody can take it away from you. He is your Father you are His son, He loves you He says who you are and who you are not, its not my business, you are free to learn and to ask and to be who you are. God bless you my friend and I love you so much.

Voyager

11-27-2006, 04:00 PM

God bless you my friend and I love you so much.
I feel the same way about you HB. God is Love, and when we share God's love with others - we are doing God's will. For me, religion doesn't need to get any deeper than that.

:cool:

hornblower

11-27-2006, 04:04 PM

I feel the same way about you HB. God is Love, and when we share God's love with others - we are doing God's will. For me, religion doesn't need to get any deeper than that.

:cool:

amen my dearest friend you are so right on there!

secrethopes

11-27-2006, 04:35 PM

I feel we need to be very careful with what we say here. We could easily cause someone to stumble or to even fall.

I had a Christian friend in college who enjoyed philosophical debate so much that he made the mistake of debating with a weaker Christian and caused this person to doubt his belief of God. It took him months to undo the damage he had done. Philosophy students know that this argument can be construed in either direction... you can also instill a belief in God.

I would encourage everyone to do thorough research before making any solidified decisions on this topic. And I would ask that we all be loving and understanding toward one another. I must add that the more I study concerning this topic the more convinced I become that the Bible is God-breathed as stated in 2 Timothy 3.

We should be careful to always research both sides of an issue. For almost every website or resource that makes claims in one direction concerning an issue, there is almost certain to be another that claims the opposite. I'm not advocating the following sites, just posting them as opposing examples (sorry Voyager... your topic seemed a good place to start... no judgment here) :

A rational, secular, historical perspective on the history of Christianity and its scripture (http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm)

Constantine played a significant role in the canonization of the Bible. (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/cea.stm)

So, how did Constantine alter the Bible? There is no historical evidence that he did! (http://www.allaboutgod.com/how-did-constantine-alter-the-bible-faq.htm)

Redeeming the Da Vinci Code (http://www.probe.org/faith-and-culture/culture/redeeming-the-da-vinci-code.html)

SpinningHead

11-27-2006, 04:47 PM

I've got some 2 cents for the subject in between house projects. Hubby always has issues w/ believing the Bible is 100% Word of God b/c of humans getting in the way so we have this conversation a lot.

Ok...so we're down to 66 books (this is NOT an attack but a conversation over black cherry all natural soda and left over Thanksgiving side dishes, here, have some more pecan candied butternut squash)...there's nothing about the 66 books that I instinctively think is wrong or doesn't jazz up. I don't have a problem with the 66 books we have and I've always thought that if God wanted the other books included, they'd be included...He is God afterall.

I do think that God takes sin extremely seriously and the OT sacrifices and punishments existed in jewish culture at God's established justice system... but THANK YOU Jesus were paid for once and for all when Jesus died on the cross and those sacrifices and corporale punishments were no longer necessary. Although I sometimes get the willies imagining all that blood and those animal sacrifices. <<<shudders>>>

When hubby says, "I don't believe everything..." ok...which part? and we look at has someone (meaning preachers) taken something out of context? or distorted history? and what was being said in what culture during what time.

You're right...this isn't a conversation we should shy away from because a good number of us come to these questions once we realized that we've just be SA'd. :(

Good post.

PS...Voyager, I'm so glad you're here. :)

mary

11-27-2006, 04:49 PM

Ah So Mags

The age old question... Here is something that happened to me not quite 10 yrs ago. She made me think a great deal.

A German theologian, an older woman, who had been a foremost bible scholar visited Norway on a lecture tour. She was the author of several books as a strong proponent for the higher criticism method. She had recently experienced something she had only read about - that had changed everything in her life. She had been "born again."

After her lecture a man came and asked her to sign one of her former books on higher criticism. She signed it if I remember her words correctly, Throw this book away it's trash... and her name. I shall see if I can find her name.

Anna Marta

Oh, Anna Marta -- I would love to know the name of this woman! What she said re: higher criticism - yesss!!!! It's that very issue that got me thrown out of three of the four churches I've been tossed from in the last six years. She was once a proponent of higher criticism and then was born again? Then she changed into... an advocate for the Masoretic text and the textus receptus? At one time, I was a proponent of higher criticism, got born again, stayed an HC Christian for four years and then started studying the issue, sometimes until 4 in the morning...

That having been said, no, I'm not going to discuss higher criticism here. I've learned I can't even "agree to disagree" with pastors on it because some of them will throw me out before I even get into the subject with them. Only in "certain churches" can I discuss it (we're attending one of them now on Sundays; the Messianic rabbi whose congregation we attend on Saturdays told me that the subject is "off limits" with him). One of the reasons that the subject is such a hot-button issue with pastors, I believe, has to do with the seminaries they graduated from, where their accreditation is from if they're not totally independent, and the relationship that these entities happen to have with Zondervan, Thomas Nelson, etc., (i.e., the Christian publishing houses). Whatever. I said I wouldn't discuss it, so I'm going to nip it right there.

Anyway, thank you so much, Anna, for posting that nice little vignette regarding the German woman. Don't go to too much trouble, but if her name happens to pop into your head, I'd be most grateful. There's one lady in particular I'm thinking of and I'm wondering if it might be she...

Love,

mary

Anna Marta

11-27-2006, 04:56 PM

.
Anna Marta, please forgive my ignorance but what is "higher criticism"?

Higher criticism therefore may be viewed as the approach usually taken by secular or liberal Christian scholars to study of the sources, process of development, and literary methods found in the Bible. It usually assumes the supernatural elements, such as miracles, are fictitious and may be explained by natural methods and/or the mythological nature of much of the Bible. http://www.wikible.org/en/Textual_criticism

Biblical criticism can be broken into two major forms: higher and lower criticism. Lower criticism is an attempt to find the original wording of the text since we no longer have the original writings. Higher criticism deals with the genuineness of the text. Questions are asked such as: When was it really written? Who really wrote this text?

Many critics in these camps do not believe in the inspiration of the scriptures and therefore use these questions to dispel the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the authors of our Scriptures. They believe that our Old Testament was simply a compilation of oral traditions, and were not actually written until after Israel was taken into captivity to Babylon in 586 B.C.
http://www.gotquestions.org/redaction-higher-criticism.html

Hope this explains it. This kind of study and theoretical exposition did as much damage to faith as the staunch and twisted fundamentalistic approach has done in the past few years. You can look at them as 2 extremes on a continuum

BTW if no one has visited exwitchoz site, I can highly recommend it. Don't let the scary black and red and evil looking printing scare you off. There is a lot of excellent stuff there - well balanced and biblically founded explanations. I was really impressed :D Lost people who find their way there surely are getting the "Truth of Jesus Christ crucified"
************************************************** *****

OH yes! I believe the bible is the Word of God inspired and trustworthy written by the power of His Spirit as if by His own hand.

I have my own thoughts on the bloody old covenant part of the story, but this isn't the time or the place for that.

Anna Marta

Jo Jo

11-27-2006, 05:15 PM

I believe God was big enough and powerful enough to get the exact things into the Bible that he wanted there. Things like The greatest of these is love and turn the other cheek... and all those other things, too.

I believe there is enough stuff in there to annoy those of us who don't want to contend daily with God and the difficult issues, to blame others and just be mad at people. :D I wrestle with many things in there... but believe they are in there for a reason... but I don't believe we should kill or stone anyone... that is not what God calls us to... It's the New Covenant now - the old law has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, just like we have. (Heb 7-10) If that's not love, I don't know what is.

mary

11-27-2006, 05:28 PM

Just two little links am I going to post, to add to Anna Marta's excellent beginning introduction to higher criticism and lower criticism, how Scripture has been viewed by the scholars, the history of the Bible, etc.:

http://av1611.com/kjbp/

I would just mention the name of the late Dr. Edward F. Hills as well. I don't care for nuts like Peter Ruckman or for the rank, unscholarly analyses of the "fundies" on the subject, but Hills, I believe, is credible. I have both of his books on the subject, the more available and broad-based one being entitled "Believing Bible Study."

At www.sermonaudio.com (http://www.sermonaudio.com), Howard King, a pastor in Tennessee whose brother I know up here, has an MP3 sermon on the subject as well. I've burned CDs for people of this sermon and they seem to like it.

mary

Willow

11-27-2006, 05:59 PM

damn good stuff HB !!!

[QUOTE]
Ok Voyager thats fine and I dont even pretyend to have one single answer for you this all may be so true im sure that it is. I just choose to believe god is bigger than human beings thats all. But just because i choose to believe god can control what it written in there and let some of it go doesnt make it true. Suppose the most important part is gone! Suppose there is none of it that is true really I mean it!
Suppose its all a lie and Jesus didnt really have a virgin birth and He wasnbt even crucified for my sins at all but he was just some guy some prophet something or other. Believe me I have been there asked these questions about all of it over and over again............Im here to tell you go ahead and ask away and dont be ashamed of it you shouldnt be ashamed of asking about it. I have. I will. Its ok it doesnt hurt God at all to ask. In fact Jesus asked it of Peter remember?
Who do you say that I am Peter?
Peter replied that he believed that Jesus is the Son of God.
Why Jesus asked him.
Who else do we have that comes with the message of eternal life?
Nobody!
Christianity is the only religion that gets you forgiven. I need that! The other stuff is not important the truth will be revealed believe me or believe Him sooner or later we will all die and we will all know soon enough. Its all about faith and nothing else. Like I said Jesus didnt say you had to believe in a book. You dont. You are my brother i know you are because you said you are and thats all I need to know. What else you believe, that, maybe we can agree or disagree, it doesnt really matter what we believe about any of it. Thats all knowledge that God will be the judge of not me or you.
You are His son that He loves dearly and thats all there is to it. Nobody can take it away from you. He is your Father you are His son, He loves you He says who you are and who you are not, its not my business, you are free to learn and to ask and to be who you are. God bless you my friend and I love you so much.

yeshua'smags

11-27-2006, 08:02 PM

Yay HB!!! Thank you for your post!;) :p

Anna Marta

11-28-2006, 03:46 AM

(this is NOT an attack but a conversation over black cherry all natural soda and left over Thanksgiving side dishes, here, have some more pecan candied butternut squash).

I do think that God takes sin extremely seriously and the OT sacrifices and punishments existed in jewish culture at God's established justice system...

You're right...this isn't a conversation we should shy away from because a good number of us come to these questions once we realized that we've just be SA'd.
************************************************** *******
First - It is not fair to talk about that great soda and squash to us people who can only sit over here in this provincial land and drool all over the keyboard! :mad: :(

While it is very hard to read in the Old Covenant about what in today's society sounds so barbaric, it can help to remember what was going on in those times. The things God was condemning were terrible things. Proponents of those belief systems were throwing their living babies onto the red hot arms of bronze gods and temple prostitutes were a way of life. What we shake our heads at in disgust when we see sexually pornographic displays and lifestyles was an accepted way of life for the pagan worshipper. (God's chosen were being influenced by these false gods and worship practices to do the same thing - Paul mentions them offering their children.)

God is God and all that he does is for the good of his children. There are things which a holy God cannot allow and the shedding of innocent blood is one of them. I cannot even in my wildest imagination conjure up the kinds of diseases that were rampant because of the sexual promiscuity hetero and homo sexual. Life in those times was hard. We are really rather naive in this day and age as we look back on those times. We have a tendency to judge those historical times through the our modern eyes because we think of our governments and legal systems and the rule of law as the way to control a society.

That is my 2 kroner's worth. It is hard for me to read some of the stories too, but I understand the need for God's system of law and am grateful to be alive today when my sin is covered by Jesus blood and our justice systems work - however poorly. Though IMHO, I can see how today's society is creeping backwards to old practices... :(

Anna Marta

yeshua'smags

11-28-2006, 06:01 AM

((((Anna Marta))));)

Reg

11-28-2006, 10:46 AM

Mags, Thanks for the courage to bring this up. It can get a little heated if one is not careful.

Hope this can remain a good open discussion. It's worth it.

This is something that I’ve had a discussion about with two of my golfing buddies. One is an
atheist and the other, the son of a minister. They both doubt the authenticity of the Bible as the
word of God. They are not hostile towards it, just skeptical. They both know that I believe it is.
There is NO way I have attempted to shove my beliefs on them. They are open to what I say.

Here is what I sent them lately about that.

---------------

This was sent to me from a mailing list I'm on. While I don't agree with everything here on the other links, there are two articles I thought you would like to read about the Bible that I do agree with.

Cover story: Ancient words...but ever true? Can we still trust the Bible?
http://www.christianodyssey.org/06/ON06/ON06-05.pdf

Do we have the right books in the Bible?, by Mike Morrison. Who decided which books should be in
the New Testament? http://www.christianodyssey.org/06/ON06/ON06-14.pdf

I know we talked about this before. These help explain in ways I couldn't, the authenticity of the
Bible.

Hope you find them useful.

---------------

Personally, I’ll try to make it simple. If we believe that the Universe was created by God, then it
would seem to me that He knows how to put a book together about who He is and who we are.

Why He did it in a way that can be misinterpreted and misunderstood, beats me. I do know that when
I studied those areas that seem to be so, I found that they can be understood. It’s all a matter how you
approach studying the Bible. Do you do it to prove it wrong or prove it right? It all has to do with a
mind set. For many of us here, we have been manipulated by those who misused it as a weapon to
control us. When we had our eyes opened to this deception, naturally we had a bad taste in our
mouths about scripture. It took me awhile to begin to trust what it said again. I was determined to
find out what those scriptures really meant. It was difficult with the old tapes playing in my head. I
had to keep asking God to help me understand what He meant.

I also spent years debating with a mailing list and a bulletin board I was on. This drove me to study
harder to come up with answers for myself that made sense. I don’t have all the areas I had to relearn
answers for. But, so far, the ones I studied in depth kept proving to me, I can depend on what the
Bible says as God’s word to me/us. It’s an article of faith.

BTW, great links secrethopes!

Anna Marta

11-28-2006, 12:44 PM

Hello,

The name of the German theologian is Eta Linnemann. Below are 3 sources about her and/or by her.

Hope this is of interest.

Anna Marta

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/go/gvcc/sermon_trans/Special_Speakers/Eta_Linnemann_Testimony.html

http://www.founders.org/FJ08/article3_fr.html

http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/1993v28n1b.htm

jimsmuse

11-28-2006, 02:57 PM

Thank you Anna Marta for explaining and very good links. I thought that's what you were talking about but didn't want to take that for granted.
I believe that the scriptures we have are the Word of God. We don't understand them all very well as I think we just scratch the surface of the meanings in the "church-realm". There's more I want to say but I have to go will post more tomorrow as I love this subject. I hope all have a good night..God is so near......

mary

11-28-2006, 05:11 PM

I join Jimsmuse in thanking you so much, Anna Marta, for these links. Mrs. Linneman has a remarkable testimony and her evaluation of higher criticism is from a different standpoint than I had heard before, even though I've done years of "investigative research" in it (one reason that I took the class in Hebrew last year; learning Greek in a Bible study now). I'm amazed at her trenchant summation of the issue and her reasoning! She is a gem and these articles are a joy to read.

You're right about society creeping back to those old practices, Anna. I won't get started on it, but I thoroughly agree. We need to pray for the preservation of some semblance of Philippians 4:8 in our society. It's declining so fast that it would be unbelievable if we didn't have God's word to warn us about it.

Regarding this discussion, if it should continue, I think I would like to defer to "the path most popularly chosen" and just be an observer... Translation: I really love all you guys! :) :) :)

Thanks again, Anna Marta!

mary

Anna Marta

11-29-2006, 02:20 PM

Hi Mags,

Here is a direct quote from Etta Linnemann. Thought you might find this of interest. The URL is below.

"To most religious conservatives, the Gospel of Q is a non-issue. As Eta Linnemann comments, it doesn't exist and "...is nothing but fantasy....Such totally subjective arrangements, depending on dubious suggestions about the historical background, amount to novelistic trifling with early Christian origins." 2 To those who believe that God inspired the authors of the Bible to write error-free text, it matters not one iota whether some of the Gospel content was derived from an earlier document. The Holy Spirit has guaranteed that the Bible is inerrant."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gosp_q.htm

Jo Jo

11-29-2006, 02:49 PM

Eta Linnemann wrote:
To those who believe that God inspired the authors of the Bible to write error-free text

This was too good and I had to make a comment on my thoughts here. :) Even though, like I said before, I believe God was big enough and powerful enough to get the exact things into the Bible that he wanted there. That is a big statement up above from Eta Linnemann... after all God is working with humans. :D I believe many of their own flavors got mixed in with the writing. But again I believe God can work with that, and do it as he plans and wants, I don't presume to understand how. There are things our minds can not work around. Trusting humans with God's stuff, just gives me the willies anymore. I know intellectuals will decide to put their minds around it ALL or choose to throw it out. I embrace the heart of the matter and understand as I go along. People that want to misunderstand and prove the Bible errant always can, but Jesus has always proven crystal clear true to me. That is just some of my thoughts. I wanted to clarify... or confuse. :rolleyes: ;)

Thanks for these links! :)

Willow

11-29-2006, 07:08 PM

There's so many beliefs... as many beliefs as there are people. Even those who say the bible is inerrant... well.. how do you interpret the many translations? Which is right?

To me... it doesn't really matter what I believe. There is a truth and God has it. If I think in those terms... it takes the importance away from my own beliefs and puts it back into the perspective of who really has the truth and power anyway.

It may seem simplistic, but it works for me to say... God knows. That's good enough for me. Doesn't stop me from exploring and learning... but I can take my belief system with a grain of salt if I remember who is really in control of the universe.

hornblower

11-29-2006, 07:34 PM

To me... it doesn't really matter what I believe. There is a truth and God has it. If I think in those terms... it takes the importance away from my own beliefs and puts it back into the perspective of who really has the truth and power anyway.

It may seem simplistic, but it works for me to say... God knows. That's good enough for me. Doesn't stop me from exploring and learning... but I can take my belief system with a grain of salt if I remember who is really in control of the universe.

I love this statement. I think we can get way up in our heads. Now God loves our heads understand im not against the brainworks at all, love that stuff but the thing is to me the gospel is mostly about the heart. Its the heart God is interested in and He says so. If it werent true you woulkd have a God who didnt love my daughter who sometimes in fact most of the time does not understand the written word at all. What about the mentally retarded? What about the blind with no one to read to them. What about the people that will never be as lucky as we are to think and ponder all of this, are they left out?
God wants us to think and to reason but in the end its about our heart not our brain. Its with the heart that He gives us to understand. Its the heart that He circumsizes.
You could spend forever learning and relearning it still wont get you there with God. Its all vanity in the end. Sorry this is my take on things and I'm sticking with it.
Well said Willow.

exwitchoz

11-29-2006, 08:05 PM

That's really beautifully put Amy... :)

Voyager

11-30-2006, 03:50 AM

To me... it doesn't really matter what I believe. There is a truth and God has it. If I think in those terms... it takes the importance away from my own beliefs and puts it back into the perspective of who really has the truth and power anyway.
What an amazing and profound statement Amy! It is very liberating to think that we don't have to know what the "truth" is.... God has it all under control. Who cares? It's God's truth, not ours. We don't have to figure it out. God has it all figured out, and all we have to do is trust God.

You're a genius!

:cool:

Willow

11-30-2006, 06:06 AM

Ya'll have made my day. I feel so empowered and built up! HUGSSSS!

exwitchoz

11-30-2006, 06:10 AM

Right back at ya Amy...

(((HUGS))) :)

yeshua'smags

11-30-2006, 06:24 AM

Ok, then let me play devil's advocate for a minute.

The translations may have little nuances here and there that differ, but they all come to the same conclusions. People who subscribe to only one translation are very short-sighted. The translations, I think, are subjective, you have to find the one that you can understand. I like the Message, my former church got all pissy if it wasn't The King James:rolleyes: , but that is like reading Shakespeare, too much deciphering.

If it doesn't matter what we believe, how do we function? God doesn't keep anything eldr to himself, why would he keep the truth from us? What we believe should make us who we are should it not?

I'm JUST ASKING!! Don't get all offended, I'm just asking questions here.;)

Willow

11-30-2006, 07:03 AM

Willow

11-30-2006, 07:26 AM

Hey Mags...

I think maybe I owe you more of an explanation... Not that I have any wisdom. And not that you think I do! I'm not very smart about the bible. So when famous theologians begin to be quoted and stuff like the gospel of Q starts being mentioned... that's when I am lost in the masses with the children and unedumacated hill people.

As you know, the NT... largely consists of letters sent to groups of people. It's kinda like taking what we write on this forum and putting it in book form... putting numbers by our words and sentences. It was written at a critical time by critical - chosen - people. Therefore the importance is elevated significantly. However... those men are not God.

Like I said... there are as many beliefs as there are people in the world. All of them can't be right. However... I've decided to give up my right to say "I am right and you are not". I might feel that way in some instances... but I've made a conscious choice to widen my parameters of who and what I accept based on beliefs.

I'm in the hornblower camp on approaching truth as a heart matter more than a head matter. Things that matter to me are more basic... Love God... Love my neighbor... do justly, love mercy, walk humbly.

I really don't think it matters as much as we think it does... the jots and tittles... they're just noise that messes up the important stuff.

Jerry

11-30-2006, 07:40 AM

Dear Mags,,,,
For the English speaking student,,"The Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" is far and away the best work of it's type. I have been using the "Strong's" for many years (about 30 ) and to date have only uncovered 2 errors in the work ,and they were of a minor nature........For study,I use the "King James Av",,,,,,not because it is such a wonderful translation,,,,but because Dr.Strongs when compiling and organizing his "Concordance",,,,,keyed it off the "King James Av".................For casual reading however;I use the "New King James" .......The "New King James" updates the language,for an easier read,while maintaining most of the literary beauty of the "Authorized Version"......If you really want a tough read try reading the "1611 King James":eek: Interesting that the letter from the translators to the "King" in the 1611 claims no inspiration nor do the Translators claim it to be inerrant.In fact the Translators caution the "King" that their work represents only their best effort,and that he should study with care and dilligance.....So don't get drawn into debate by some fundy over "scriptural in-errancy",,,,,it is foolishness ;) From my studies I have found that while scripture contains the inerrant word of God,,,,,,,,,,,,not every word in scripture is accurate in it's translation or it's transmission and that many words are not translated at all but are transliterated.........Bottom line,,,,,STUDY FOR YOURSELF ;) don't let this man or any other man tell you what to believe ;)
Love Jerry

exwitchoz

11-30-2006, 08:20 AM

Well... LOL... I thought I'd jump in with my 2c worth here...

I quite like the KJV... but I certainly don't believe it is 'infallable' or 'inerrant'... that is the sole preserve of the original manuscripts IMHO... It's just what I was brought up with and ... well... *shrugs* I'll always have a soft spot for it...

...but I also have on my shelf and use just as often... NIV... NASB... New Living Translation (prolly my fave for 'ease of reading')

For my money if ANY translation brings someone that little bit closer to God... or increases their understanding of Him... well then it can't be too bad... :)

btw... DEFINITELY echo what Jerry said about 'Strong's' ... it is an EXCELLENT reference source... I use it extensively myself... :D

Jerry

11-30-2006, 08:27 AM

I quite like the KJV... but I certainly don't believe it is 'infallable' or 'inerrant'... that is the sole preserve of the original manuscripts IMHO...

EXACTLY :D

jimsmuse

11-30-2006, 09:20 AM

Jesus never really said a whole lot that wasn't already in the "old testament" scriptures......that validates those scriptures for me. Archeology has yet to prove scripture wrong as to the geography of places even though half the time they set out to do so......

So since I believe we (the Body of Christ) are here for the one's that don't believe......what do you tell them............

I really do believe one preach's with one's life, words should be optional, but there comes a time when you may need a back-up. I'm just curious.

Voyager

11-30-2006, 09:31 AM

This one makes it real easy for all of us:

Galatians 5:14

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

That pretty much sums up the entire Bible.

:cool:

jimsmuse

11-30-2006, 09:46 AM

This one makes it real easy for all of us:

That pretty much sums up the entire Bible.

:cool:

Well, yeh, Jesus said two commands "Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself".
I am far from a legalist so I'm with ya! But where does the authority come from to be able to even stand on that?

Voyager

11-30-2006, 09:55 AM

But where does the authority come from to be able to even stand on that?
I tried to figure it out for about five years after leaving my spiritually abusive church. The more I tried to figure it out, the more confused and stressed-out I got. Now, I pretty much follow the plan that Amy outlined above: I just leave it up to God to sort it all out. I figure that Jesus died for my sins, and my job is to love others as I love myself. I may not always succeed at that, but that's where forgiveness comes into play.

That's all the deeper my religion gets.

:cool:

Reg

11-30-2006, 09:55 AM

To me this is the scripture that says it all. It is there for us to learn and find comfort. It's unfortunate that it has been used for other purposes by counterfeits.

Without His word, it would be difficult to have HOPE!

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Willow

11-30-2006, 09:58 AM

Well, yeh, Jesus said two commands "Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself".
I am far from a legalist so I'm with ya! But where does the authority come from to be able to even stand on that?

I think if I felt the need to convert people, I would have the need to debate my beliefs effectively. However... since I don't have that urge anymore... it's not an issue.

Willow

11-30-2006, 10:01 AM

I tried to figure it out for about five years after leaving my spiritually abusive church. The more I tried to figure it out, the more confused and stressed-out I got. Now, I pretty much follow the plan that Amy outlined above: I just leave it up to God to sort it all out. I figure that Jesus died for my sins, and my job is to love others as I love myself. I may not always succeed at that, but that's where forgiveness comes into play.

That's all the deeper my religion gets.

:cool:

This is also my experience. I find all the jots and tittles very stressful. I don't mind reading them and studying them... but I don't want to argue them and try to figure out the exactness of the law with fear of my salvation in my throat lest I don't believe things just right. I can't walk the tightrope anymore.

jimsmuse

11-30-2006, 10:10 AM

This is also my experience. I find all the jots and tittles very stressful. I don't mind reading them and studying them... but I don't want to argue them and try to figure out the exactness of the law with fear of my salvation in my throat lest I don't believe things just right. I can't walk the tightrope anymore.

Absolutely, and I am only belaboring this to say this, I don't believe you have to study with a knot in your throat sweet Amy, God isn't waiting for you to screw up! He just wants us to know Him and He did kinda tell us to go tell....
Please know I am only trying to understand where everyone is "coming from".

Thank you Reg! Excellent scripture.

Willow

11-30-2006, 10:28 AM

Absolutely, and I am only belaboring this to say this, I don't believe you have to study with a knot in your throat sweet Amy, God isn't waiting for you to screw up! He just wants us to know Him and He did kinda tell us to go tell....
Please know I am only trying to understand where everyone is "coming from".

Thank you Reg! Excellent scripture.

I don't have a problem talking about my faith... I just don't think it's my job to convert anyone through debating techniques. studying doesn't give me the knot in my throat... debating does though.

yeshua'smags

11-30-2006, 10:31 AM

ME FREAKIN TOO!!!!! I know that I may have this rep as a hot-head debator or something. But I can't keep from insulting or hurting if I don't understand where everyone is coming from and if you are going to comment be prepared to answer my questions or tell me you don't want to answer my questions.

I don't understand why you don't want to tell people about what you believe. Granted there is a right way and 4 million VERY WRONG ways to do that! I'm NOT DEBATING here, I just have these questions.

You're not going to love your neighbor if you don't read WHY he says to. Can you pick and choose what you want to believe to fit your lifestyle?
No one ever said being His follower was easy, but it's not supposed to be damaging either. That doesn't mean we throw out what we don't want to hear, right?

WE don't do the converting any way, we are to be seed planters.

Willow

11-30-2006, 11:08 AM

huh? Mags... was this in reply to something I wrote? I don't understand the source of frustration.

Jerry

11-30-2006, 11:15 AM

See the problem comes down to the "Witnessing Part" we all ,because we are human, tend to want to keep score......We so quickly forget when our "Great Teacher" told us "no one comes to me but the Father call him",,,,,,,,,,,,,,so our keeping score is in fact, absurd.......Christ himself admonished us to expect nothing.......That in the end we should say,,,"We are unprofitable servants,,,,,we have done what was our duty to do".....All we do is give testimony to the Savior to those we meet,,,,,,,if the "Father" has called them,,,,,,we can't say anything wrong........If the "Father" has NOT called them,,,,,,WE can't say anything right ;) .............in short OUR power is for nothing :D
Love Jerry

Anna Marta

11-30-2006, 11:47 AM

Amen Jerry! and everyone else too...

I confess, I can get a little too "technical" and I'm sorry if my comments regarding the Q documents made anyone stressed. Please forgive me, sometimes I can be insensitive to where some of have been regarding the bible.

I am a teacher and by definition that means I am a hungry learner too. I think discussion of aspects of things makes things not only richer and broader, but it helps me to clarify where I am personally. You see when I left my home church I stumbled into a lot of confusion (what we all call scripture twisting" and they put me down as an intellectual who refused to accept what they SAID was the correct interpretation - of just about everything. :(

Well friends, I am free! And I am enjoying examining everything and just love to participate in the learning environment. For me, this kind of discussion is helpful because it shows me where my hackles rise and and it shows me other things about myself I may need to work on - speaking of recovery, huh?

I ask myself as I read, how much of the twisted stuff (desire to defend forcefully) is still in there? Am I now able to discuss without getting angry because I think I have been attacked when someone has a different position? At the moment I am steadily trying to drive another bible teacher NUTS with my questioning and challenging! :eek:

It's an important way to learn about me!:) Is anyone else picking up hints about what is going on inside of them - that they too might want to work out of??? :confused:

BTW, here's tidbit I picked up from my blind friend who speaks modern Hebrew. I asked her what the difference is between modern and biblical Hebrew. Here is the most interesting thing I picked up.

She said the biblical Hebrew (OT) has no present tense - only past and future. Geeze, I thought, that goes along with telling a story about things that have already happened and giving hope for what is to come... I like that perspective. :)

My testimony is what God has done in my life and will do in someone who accepts him. So it is past and future... mmmmmmmmmm
Anna Marta

Anna Marta

11-30-2006, 11:50 AM

Addendum

Please be patient with me... this is not at all well worded. I have a gastrointestinal flu bug and have doing you know what all day...

Could I have one or 2 prayers? :(

Jerry

11-30-2006, 11:53 AM

Addendum

Please be patient with me... this is not at all well worded. I have a gastrointestinal flu bug and have doing you know what all day...

Could I have one or 2 prayers? :(

I had that once,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Joanne made me go out in the yard :D

Willow

11-30-2006, 11:54 AM

Amen Jerry! and everyone else too...

I confess, I can get a little too "technical" and I'm sorry if my comments regarding the Q documents made anyone stressed. Please forgive me, sometimes I can be insensitive to where some of have been regarding the bible.

nonononooo... I feel really bad now. Please don't feel that my stress was directed toward the Q stuff... oh geez. Actually the Q documents are interesting, but I decided also that they don't exist. So... I do think about this kind of stuff. I'm trying to put my finger on what exactly it is that does stress me out. Maybe disagreeing does? Maybe being vulnerable and honest in a situation where others may not agree with me? Maybe the possibility of confrontation and debate? I'm not sure at all. My comment about the Q and technical stuff was more of an effort to expose my own dumbness regarding higher thinking so I could quickly duck out of any debate that might arise... LOL!

Or maybe it's putting something out there that I feel strongly about and having it trompled on... I might be too sensitive for that kinda stuff. I totally enjoy being affirmed. If you notice earlier, it made my day to be bragged on! But then when I realized everyone didn't recognize my genius (pun) my balloon deflated quickly and I became very insecure and frightened. Kept writing through it though. That might or might not be something good.. dunno.. I'm normally a tail tucker and runner.

Anna Marta

11-30-2006, 12:04 PM

Or maybe it's putting something out there that I feel strongly about and having it trompled on... I might be too sensitive for that kinda stuff. I totally enjoy being affirmed. If you notice earlier, it made my day to be bragged on! But then when I realized everyone didn't recognize my genius (pun) my balloon deflated quickly and I became very insecure and frightened. Kept writing through it though. That might or might not be something good.. dunno.. I'm normally a tail tucker and runner.

My Dearest Tail Tucker,

Thanks for the affirmation. You are important to me and I would never intentionally hurt or threaten you. What you wrote is exactly what I meant. Learning about ourselves and seeing our growth is great... Looking forward to the day when you can walk around with your tail in the air! :)

Hugs
Anna Marta

Willow

11-30-2006, 12:06 PM

My Dearest Tail Tucker,

Thanks for the affirmation. You are important to me and I would never intentionally hurt or threaten you. What you wrote is exactly what I meant. Learning about ourselves and seeing our growth is great... Looking forward to the day when you can walk around with your tail in the air! :)

Hugs
Anna Marta

Cool :p

yeshua'smags

11-30-2006, 12:48 PM

huh? Mags... was this in reply to something I wrote? I don't understand the source of frustration.

I'm sorry! Your post got inbetween Marcy's and mine, I was referring to something she said. And I totally didn't mean to deflate your balloon. I am an annoying little sister who asks "why" about everything and that is frustrating, I know. I'm sorry if I made you freaked or scared, I'm not frustrated. I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

So, if you don't mind me asking, why don't you want to tell others about your beliefs? I don't either a lot of times, I don't want to turn anyone off or get labeled. I just wondered what your reasons were.

ANd please let me make it clear that I don't think that I'm always right and if you disagree with me, you are wrong. I may defend my position, but that is out of stubbornness. If I get proven wrong I will admit it.

Willow

11-30-2006, 01:03 PM

[COLOR="Navy"][B]I'm sorry! Your post got inbetween Marcy's and mine, I was referring to something she said.

Ok... I get it...

And I totally didn't mean to deflate your balloon.

I think it has more to do with me than it does with you. I'd like to be less sensitive... even a little would help. I seem to be awfully dependent on positive feedback and awfully affected by anything less. Maybe like Anna said... this is a good way to work through my tendency to avoid conflict.

I am an annoying little sister who asks "why" about everything and that is frustrating, I know. I'm sorry if I made you freaked or scared, I'm not frustrated. I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

I don't find you annoying at all. Maybe a little intimidating tho.. LOL!

So, if you don't mind me asking, why don't you want to tell others about your beliefs? I don't either a lot of times, I don't want to turn anyone off or get labeled. I just wondered what your reasons were.

I don't think I have anything to pull on to tell you about right now. I need to know what I believe before I tell it to you. When I do know what I know, I'm not afraid to talk about it. I mean... I talk to people about Jesus and God every day, but it's not in a way like I'm witnessing... it's more like in a way that I'm sharing part of who I am and what makes me tick. If someone gets influenced in the process, that's OK. It's also OK if I get influenced in the process. It's more mutual communication. When I was deeply indoctrinated, all my sharing was about influencing others to be like me. Now it's more about sharing who I am and having normal connections happen. It's not about power or influence... although that is a side product sometimes.

yeshua'smags

11-30-2006, 01:20 PM

When I was deeply indoctrinated, all my sharing was about influencing others to be like me. Now it's more about sharing who I am and having normal connections happen. It's not about power or influence... .

Now that is smart!!!

Anna Marta

11-30-2006, 03:49 PM

I talk to people about Jesus and God every day, but it's not in a way like I'm witnessing... it's more like in a way that I'm sharing part of who I am and what makes me tick. If someone gets influenced in the process, that's OK. ... Now it's more about sharing who I am and having normal connections happen.

Willow,
This is the best description of an effective way of sharing faith I've ever heard.
You should be teaching others how to do it.

Love,
Anna Marta

jimsmuse

12-01-2006, 06:31 AM

Willow,
This is the best description of an effective way of sharing faith I've ever heard.
You should be teaching others how to do it.

Love,
Anna Marta

Yes, because isn't that how Jesus did it? It's all about relationship, real relationship, warts and all :)

Not that Jesus had warts...you know what I mean...:o

Willow

12-01-2006, 06:47 AM

Jesus had warts??!! LOL

DancingBear

12-01-2006, 06:36 PM

So, as a newcomer here, what I am getting out of this thread is that most of you here really don't believe in the Bible but only in the "spiritual". I have one question. How, then, do you "test the spirits"? Only by your own feelings? Because at my age, on the flip side of 50, I have learned NOT to trust feelings. And as long as I have been a believer, on the flip side of 20 years, I have seen not to trust feelings, but to rely on the written word and God's promises. I have seen that the Dark one's promises and emotional fallacies SEEM just as real and as promising as God's if we have nothing concrete and solid to base our faith on besides our feelings. If you do not stand on the word of God, what do you stand on?????

Oh, and in answer to the 66 books... I would take some exception to that... I am a strong proponent of delving into original Hebrew and Greek and into the original Hebrew texts and comparing all of scripture to itself, including the Old Testament... in other words eschatology. God is unchanging. The Old Testament is not null and void entirely. Jesus said he has not come to do away with the old, but to fulfill it. Therefore, it is not new teaching or taken apart. The original documents are pretty much in tact since Abraham's time and have been preserved by the Israelites. It is only the New Testament that has suffered, and much has and is being recovered every decade. And each recovery only substantiates what God has preserved. Now, I may be malinformed, if so, please enlighten me because, I, too, have found many ways in which the "church" has taught untruths to me in the past, and I am always seeking truth. But I have found that the world also teaches untruth, and the ultimate deceiver is Satan, not God. And this world is Satan's domain.

But I ramble..... so sorry. I am prolly not even making any sense. Please forgive.

And always, ALWAYS remember, I speak ONLY of my own opinions....

Thank you all for bearing with me!!!

Voyager

12-01-2006, 07:18 PM

So, as a newcomer here, what I am getting out of this thread is that most of you here really don't believe in the Bible but only in the "spiritual".
Actually, it's been my experience that the majority of the people on this forum DO believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

If you do not stand on the word of God, what do you stand on?????
Personally, I just trust in God - even though I believe that the men who wrote the Bible threw in a lot of their own thoughts and cultural influences. You see, my thinking is not that God is imperfect, but rather, that humans are imperfect. That includes the humans who wrote the Bible.

I do not try to impose this opinion on anyone else. I respect your opinion, and everyone else's here. To me, this is the difference between being a spiritual bully and being tolerant of the beliefs of others. I may not agree with other forum members on doctrinal issues, but if the underlying foundation of our religious beliefs is that we show each other the same love and respect that we want to receive ourselves, then it's all good.

:cool:

Willow

12-02-2006, 04:18 AM

I guess I don't have a good grasp on what I believe yet. When asked to explain... I freeze up. I really, really don't wanna talk about it most of the time. What do I stand on? I do get a lot of comfort from scripture... the red letters in the NT are especially cool to me. but the thing I find myself falling back on (not usually standing) is faith in a powerful, all-knowing, loving God. Bad bad things happen and it never has knocked God off the throne of my heart yet.

Anna Marta

12-02-2006, 06:11 AM

So, as a newcomer here, what I am getting out of this thread is that most of you here really don't believe in the Bible but only in the "spiritual".

Hello Dancing Bear,

Yes you are a newcomer here, so I don't know anything about you. I would very much appreciate if you would introduce yourself. I speak for myself, it is difficult for me being on a forum for we who have been spiritually abused and are recovering to have someone jump in with lots of opinions when I don't know anything about you.

I think you probably mean well but, it is important to understand that when people have been abused, - by those gifted with the ability to speak authoritatively and smoothly who chose to use the bible as a way to control, manipulate, intimidate and control - it can take a LONG time to be able to get back to "square one" in regards to a relationship with the bible.

Sometimes it is enough to simply know, believe and take comfort in the very real fact that God is love and sent his son Jesus to die for me. We allow everyone to BE where they ARE in regards to their faith and their understanding and biblical position.

Jesus told us to have faith like a child :) - and that is an uncomplicated coming to the Father just the way I am with what I have.

It was Martin Luther who said that the bible is the cradle the baby sleeps in and we worship the child not the cradle. (not a direct quote but close enough)

Warmly,
Anna Marta

Willow

12-02-2006, 07:05 AM

It was Martin Luther who said that the bible is the cradle the baby sleeps in and we worship the child not the cradle. (not a direct quote but close enough)

I hadn't heard this one before... I like it A LOT!

Anna Marta

12-03-2006, 05:19 AM

Hi Willow,

Glad you liked the Luther comment. He was the driving force in getting the bible into the hands of the people. Up until that point the people only had what they were told was in the bible by the priests of the church (who for many years were the only literate people in local towns and villages) Talk about an invitation for spiritual abuse, huh?

Luther knew about spiritual abuse and discovered personally the golden Kernal of the scriptures - saved by grace not by works! Isn't that still the core?

Just like Christ said, the law was written for man -not man for the law. The total of all 66 books is a simple message that even a child can understand, but that we tend to make so much more complicated. We don't need to have it memorized, understand all the nuances, read the correct translation, interpret it in a certain way or study it deeply to be saved, loved, accepted and live together with our Abba for all eternity.

Shalom,
Anna Marta