mind control, influence of church attitudes

[Carmen]

From Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
Chapter 13 - This Can't be Mind Control, can it? p. 189.

"When committed Christians regularly see other members' salvation questioned when they leave their church, it is very difficult for them to consider leaving - God, salvation, and the group seem to by synonymous."

"All that's needed (for mind control) is an environment where the information can be controlled, and more importantly, the way people perceive that information. To be fair, this definition may seem to apply to parenting, school, even political campaigns. But children eventually grow up and strike out on their own; students can read a variety of books at the local library, and in every political campaign, there is counter propaganda from "the other side." However groups that practice mind control often suppress the desire to seek outside sources or accept what those sources reveal."

I think that churches that practice exclusivity are already giving the members the impression that they are "in" something special. It may not be explicitly mentioned that members are not to look elsewhere for the truth, but they will be less likely to do that if they think that they or their pastor have the handle on truth. Controlling and judging behavior may not be overtly encouraged, but it may come through the general attitude that is promoted in the church.

What really hurt me is that a friend that later joined the church I was SAd at questioned my salvation because I refused to go there with him, as if our relationship up to that time had been worthless, had not existed.

[Voyager]

"When committed Christians regularly see other members' salvation questioned when they leave their church, it is very difficult for them to consider leaving - God, salvation, and the group seem to by synonymous."
This is the very reason why I cannot bring myself to join another church. The friendships that you make there are dependent upon you following their religious doctrines. If you leave or decide that you are unwilling to do what the pastor commands - you lose all of your "friends". That is no way to live.

The next group I join will not have any religious requirements attached. My family and I need relationships that are not there one day and gone the next due to some religious B.S.

:cool:

[mary]

From Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
Chapter 13 - This Can't be Mind Control, can it? p. 189.

"When committed Christians regularly see other members' salvation questioned when they leave their church, it is very difficult for them to consider leaving - God, salvation, and the group seem to by synonymous."

"All that's needed (for mind control) is an environment where the information can be controlled, and more importantly, the way people perceive that information. To be fair, this definition may seem to apply to parenting, school, even political campaigns. But children eventually grow up and strike out on their own; students can read a variety of books at the local library, and in every political campaign, there is counter propaganda from "the other side." However groups that practice mind control often suppress the desire to seek outside sources or accept what those sources reveal."

I think that churches that practice exclusivity are already giving the members the impression that they are "in" something special. It may not be explicitly mentioned that members are not to look elsewhere for the truth, but they will be less likely to do that if they think that they or their pastor have the handle on truth. Controlling and judging behavior may not be overtly encouraged, but it may come through the general attitude that is promoted in the church.

What really hurt me is that a friend that later joined the church I was SAd at questioned my salvation because I refused to go there with him, as if our relationship up to that time had been worthless, had not existed.

Absolutely correct, Carmen re: the inclination of committed Christians, the impression that exclusive churches give their members, etc.

My "bad pastor" was considered untouchable. "God," maybe, even. :( :mad: (2 Corinthians 11:12-15.) His wife would not countenance people visiting other churches. Yet, on Sunday mornings at "fellowship luncheons," he could trash-talk me with her standing ten feet away; he could say/do things to me on weekday mornings in "counseling sessions" and then get up there in that pulpit and talk about what a wonderful husband and father he was. He was and is a consummate hypocrite.

What a horrible church that must be that you were SA'ed in, that your friend would question your salvation because you wouldn't attend the rotten thing with him. He sure doesn't "get it," does he? Well, eventually he will. I hope, for his sake, that it's sooner rather than later. I'm sorry about this friendship; I trust the Lord that it will be repaired in His perfect timing.

Blessings abounding for this week to you, Carmen...

mary

[ex-shep]

This is the very reason why I cannot bring myself to join another church. The friendships that you make there are dependent upon you following their religious doctrines. If you leave or decide that you are unwilling to do what the pastor commands - you lose all of your "friends". That is no way to live.

The next group I join will not have any religious requirements attached. My family and I need relationships that are not there one day and gone the next due to some religious B.S.

:cool:

Not necesarrily, but I understand the reticence. The church and I disagree over inerrancy and church growth methodologies all the time. I take what I like and leave the rest. It is too bad the spiritual abuse soured any healthy relationships. I have been in the place where "I am not going through that again!!". Most understandable.

[Jo Jo]

Carmen wrote:
"All that's needed (for mind control) is an environment where the information can be controlled, and more importantly, the way people perceive that information. To be fair, this definition may seem to apply to parenting, school, even political campaigns. But children eventually grow up and strike out on their own; students can read a variety of books at the local library, and in every political campaign, there is counter propaganda from "the other side." However groups that practice mind control often suppress the desire to seek outside sources or accept what those sources reveal."

Yes, the pack mentality... I think I experienced it in Jr. High, unfortunately it didn't stay there. As it says here, I can still find it in a variety of places as an adult, not just in religious settings. I think it might be a mistake to think that a group, if it isn't associate with religion, will be immune from it.

[hornblower]

This is the very reason why I cannot bring myself to join another church. The friendships that you make there are dependent upon you following their religious doctrines. If you leave or decide that you are unwilling to do what the pastor commands - you lose all of your "friends". That is no way to live.

The next group I join will not have any religious requirements attached. My family and I need relationships that are not there one day and gone the next due to some religious B.S.

The question I have in my mind as i read this is that couldnt it happen anywhere? It happened to me when I went to high school..........Ill never get over it, it was so bad, my husband had a similar experience where the same type of thing happened to him in highschool and its permanently damaged him in business, in social settings, shoot everywhere. It happened to me growing up in my family when I refused to 'fit' in with the family code of silence. Im still to this day paying for it.
Voyager.............what did they do to you?
If part of it is really your fault lets take a look at it and lets together if you can't deal with it alone, work on it, if its them, then its THEM, its not you! If you didnt do anything wrong then you are suffering for Christs sake for doing the right thing and getting persecuted for it.
I tell you this truth is helping me to know where im at better.
Its not me its them.............cant deal with them its not my problem its Gods problem, He can have them.
Let God love you again.
If this is all wrong stuff to say please forgive me for I am not what I want to be which is God sometimes. I wish I could come across the screen and pull the pain out of all of us and heal us right now!
You know I think of poor old joseph? What did he really do to anybody? He wore his poor little coat and he had a dream oh yeah lets go kill him for it how dare he be such a person?
Now lets be real do you really think that Joseph never had these same problems we are all having right here? I dont give a crapeola what those preachers say and want to believe! I know my God. That story is right there written just for me and for you. Let me tell you that jail cell was filled with tears and so was that palace and every place else he was. He had a harder than hard time forgiving his brothers he wanted to put them to death thats what he felt like doing!
Nothings changed.
They crucified Jesus those religious nuts and they will crucify us every time. We need a big dose of knowing who we are in Him thats what! Then well be able to stand up again.

[Carmen]

Yes, the pack mentality... I think I experienced it in Jr. High, unfortunately it didn't stay there. As it says here, I can still find it in a variety of places as an adult, not just in religious settings. I think it might be a mistake to think that a group, if it isn't associate with religion, will be immune from it.

I have experienced mind-control and mobbing at school and at work. The US vs. THEM mentality has a strong pull to it. Patricia Evans in Controlling People writes of regimes and countries that are run in such a way. The problem with religion is that a religious group can anchor the deception even more by claiming that God is on their side, or that they have the only way to God. Once someone has believed that, and decided not to use his intellect, he might be convinced to believe or do anything. That is what I find to be scary.

I have also read a book by Stuart Sim called Fundamentalist World - The New Dark Age of Dogma, in which he compares religious fundamentalism to political fundamentalism, even economic fundamentalism. The book wasn't from a Christian standpoint, and maybe because of that gave me a completely different perspective on fundamentalism that I had not had before. I like new and unusual perspectives, such things are needed against mind control, I think.

[mary]

This is the very reason why I cannot bring myself to join another church. The friendships that you make there are dependent upon you following their religious doctrines. If you leave or decide that you are unwilling to do what the pastor commands - you lose all of your "friends". That is no way to live.

The next group I join will not have any religious requirements attached. My family and I need relationships that are not there one day and gone the next due to some religious B.S.

:cool:

Hear, hear, Voyager! I'm sorry I missed this post when I last visited this thread. "The friendships that you make there are dependent upon you following their religious doctrines. If you leave... you lose all of your 'friends.' That is no way to live."

Precisely!!! :) :rolleyes: :eek:

I left (was thrown out by pastor, in a private phone conversation between him and me) - and lost all my friends there. Why? Because I turned down a request of his that I engage in a certain activity with him that is commonly considered to be foreplay. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's what it was. A couple of people called me and asked why I "left," but I couldn't tell them the real reason. I told them that he threw me out for a reason of his own concoction, but not exactly why. I did tell an elder and a member of Presbytery and I asked for a hearing before Session, with "pastor" present, but they told me I "must be lying," that "pastor" would never make such a request. (Sorry, guys, but he did.) When other members asked pastor why I "left," he told them that I was involved in a relationship with one of my (also married) doctors, stated the man's full name, implied that I had refused to end the relationship when he told me to and that he, pastor, had then been left with no choice but to throw me out of the church. "Pastor" was the one who was lying. The doctor told me to "get him to shut up, no matter what it takes," hence the slander warning letter.

No, Voyager, you are correct: none of us need church relationships that are here today and gone tomorrow, no matter whether the reason is "religious B.S." or something else. I have lived, gone to school and worked in this mid-sized metropolitan area for my whole life and truth be told, as far as I know, I had not made one enemy around here in all that time. Even though I've been tossed from other churches, I'd remained on good social terms with those people and there was absolutely no one I'd want to avoid if I saw them in a mall or wherever. Now I have a whole slew of "enemies," all credit for that going to "pastor." All of these people think I'm a tramp who would go after someone else's husband, thanks to "pastor." And there's nothing I can do about it.

"Religious B.S." entered into it only minimally. "Pastor" and I disagreed somewhat on a couple of doctrinal points, but it wasn't anything major. He profoundly hated his "authority" being questioned or subverted in any way, shape or form, and so that might have vaguely entered into my being tossed, but it wasn't the main reason.

Joining another "church" is something that I would do only if I knew that I was going to die in about two days and that it might be a good idea to get someone to preside over my funeral.

mary

[Voyager]

Joining another "church" is something that I would do only if I knew that I was going to die in about two days and that it might be a good idea to get someone to preside over my funeral.
I'm glad there's at least one person here who can relate to my feelings about church.

:)

[Jo Jo]

Carmen wrote:
I have experienced mind-control and mobbing at school and at work. The US vs. THEM mentality has a strong pull to it. Patricia Evans in Controlling People writes of regimes and countries that are run in such a way. The problem with religion is that a religious group can anchor the deception even more by claiming that God is on their side, or that they have the only way to God. Once someone has believed that, and decided not to use his intellect, he might be convinced to believe or do anything. That is what I find to be scary.

I totally agree Carmen... that's what they did to me as you know. They stand behind God and poke us with sticks, claiming they have a personal in to God's brain, and plans. It's the worse kind of thing.

[Jo Jo]

I have read many posts by people here that won't go back to church, my friend that left the cult after I did doesn't know when and if she will go back. I can definitely understand that, and feel her pain - I was there with her.

[Carmen]

I'm glad there's at least one person here who can relate to my feelings about church.

:)

I relate too, Voyager. I think that deep personal relationships, the kind that survive crises, are worth much more than my name on some church roster. I could easily live without an official church membership now, though hope to find some Christians that I can have a deep personal relationship with.