What is Bigotry?

[Voyager]

Just out of curiousity, I thought I would look up the definition of the word "bigotry". Here is what dictionary.com says:

Bigotry: Stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

I am very careful not to condemn or criticize anyone else's religious belief system on this forum. If I were unable to tolerate their beliefs that were different than mine, that would classify me as a bigot based on the dictionary's definition posted above.

Now here's a good question: If I happen to post what my religious beliefs are, and someone else posts a condemning, ridiculing, shaming attack on my belief system - does it make me a bigot if I complain or get angered by their attacks on my belief system? I don't think so. Just because I stated my beliefs does not make me a bigot. I only become a bigot if I become stubbornly intolerant of someone else's belief system. Again, I am simply basing this conclusion on what the dictionary defines bigotry as.

I try to make it a point not to come across as being bigoted against anyone's religious beliefs on this forum. However, this does not mean that I will not share my religious beliefs from time to time, even though they may differ from the majority. I am as entitled to my beliefs as anyone else here is. If someone condemns or ridicules my belief system as being wrong or "anti-Biblical", I will probably tell them that their condemning attacks on my beliefs upset or angered me. This does not make me a bigot, nor does it make me intolerant of anyone else's religious beliefs. It just makes me a person who does not like being a doormat to someone else's religious condemnation of my views.

When I see someone stand up to someone else who condemns their religious beliefs on this forum, I see that as a sign of healing and recovery from spiritual abuse. After all, what did spiritual abuse do to us? It shamed us for believing anything different than what we were told to believe. When I see someone stand up to a condemning attack on their religious belief system, I see someone who has learned to finally stand up for themselves. I see someone who is learning to think for themselves instead of letting a spiritual bully do their thinking for them.

As always, take what you need and leave the rest.

:cool:

[mary]

Just out of curiousity, I thought I would look up the definition of the word "bigotry". Here is what dictionary.com says:



I am very careful not to condemn or criticize anyone else's religious belief system on this forum. If I were unable to tolerate their beliefs that were different than mine, that would classify me as a bigot based on the dictionary's definition posted above.

Now here's a good question: If I happen to post what my religious beliefs are, and someone else posts a condemning, ridiculing, shaming attack on my belief system - does it make me a bigot if I complain or get angered by their attacks on my belief system? I don't think so. Just because I stated my beliefs does not make me a bigot. I only become a bigot if I become stubbornly intolerant of someone else's belief system. Again, I am simply basing this conclusion on what the dictionary defines bigotry as.

I try to make it a point not to come across as being bigoted against anyone's religious beliefs on this forum. However, this does not mean that I will not share my religious beliefs from time to time, even though they may differ from the majority. I am as entitled to my beliefs as anyone else here is. If someone condemns or ridicules my belief system as being wrong or "anti-Biblical", I will probably tell them that their condemning attacks on my beliefs upset or angered me. This does not make me a bigot, nor does it make me intolerant of anyone else's religious beliefs. It just makes me a person who does not like being a doormat to someone else's religious condemnation of my views.

When I see someone stand up to someone else who condemns their religious beliefs on this forum, I see that as a sign of healing and recovery from spiritual abuse. After all, what did spiritual abuse do to us? It shamed us for believing anything different than what we were told to believe. When I see someone stand up to a condemning attack on their religious belief system, I see someone who has learned to finally stand up for themselves. I see someone who is learning to think for themselves instead of letting a spiritual bully do their thinking for them.

As always, take what you need and leave the rest.

:cool:

Hmmm... Are you talking about "double bigotry?" "Bigotry a deux?" No, I don't think that would make you a bigot. That word, IMHO, is bandied about way too carelessly these days.

Sounds as though dictionary.com might have an agenda of its own. My "Webster's Dictionary" defines a bigot as someone who "holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc." That's a little different, isn't it? No splitting hairs here, though...

I was raised and educated in Catholicism. Over the years, I evolved into a kinder, gentler Christianity, became a "new creation in Christ" and went towards a certain type of Protestantism. I am completely and for all time hereafter personally intolerant of relics, rosaries, the doctrine of the Transubstantiation, scapulars and other trappings of the RCC, for I notice that in reading the entire Scripture, much of this could be defined as blasphemy. Does that make me a bigot? Probably so, under dictionary.com's definition. I don't feel like a bigot... :confused:

I don't condemn Catholics, of course. Some of the dearest people in the world to me are stalwart Catholics. Some of them are in Opus Dei; some of them are part of the "Coming Home" movement (to Catholics, sort of what Lubavitchers are to lapsing rabbinic Jews). Many of these people have witnessed to me to try to "bring me back." I don't resent them; I don't argue with them; I smile at them and gently decline their tracts, books, etc. I just trust God to lead them in His direction - and I know He'll preserve me.

Bigotry as defined in many circles today has absolutely no place among Christians - I don't care what's being discussed or debated in which real "bigotry" might rear its ugly head.

Thanks for this thread, Voyager!

mary

[beginagainrose]

Wow, Voyager... salt in the wounds? I defer back to my response to your other thread... "wisdom is knowing when to be silent and when to speak.":rolleyes: :( :confused:

[Voyager]

Wow, Voyager... salt in the wounds? I defer back to my response to your other thread... "wisdom is knowing when to be silent and when to speak.":rolleyes: :( :confused:
Maybe you should obey your own advice? I'm just bringing up a topic to discuss. If you don't like the topic, then don't participate. I have no salt in any wounds. This is a perfectly good topic to discuss for people who have endured spiritual abuse. If you have an issue with me personally, maybe you should send me a PM instead of publicly maligning my posts? Or better yet, maybe you should just ignore what I have to say? There are obviously people here who appreciate the things I post, and vice versa.

As far as I know, the Admin is the only person here who has the authority to tell people what they can and cannot post, and when they should and should not speak. Until he does so, I will continue to thoughtfully and considerately post things that are on my mind while staying within the bounds of the Forum Guidelines (i.e. not shaming anyone or making personal attacks).

:cool:

[beginagainrose]

Good grief, V... you are soooooooooooo angry...I am not trying to malign you, I am simply suggesting your thread is ill-timed in light of what just transpired between you and Clementine... not to mention your effect on Anna Marta... and dare I say me? Your reaction here again is making my point. Forgive me... I am sorry you are offended... yet again.:( ... Perhaps a PM to Clementine might have been good too then?:confused: I am just commenting on how you may be coming across to others as well. As I said to you before, you have awesome and interesting threads and responses, even if I don't always agree with them, I enjoy reading your views and opinions... but... I learned the hard way know when to say when... ok... when for me on this one.:(

[Voyager]

Good grief, V... you are soooooooooooo angry...
Noooooooooo I'm not.... :rolleyes:

I am not trying to malign you, I am simply suggesting your thread is ill-timed in light of what just transpired between you and Clementine...
Clementine apologized for maligning my beliefs, and I accepted her apology. I even apologized to her and anyone else I may have offended when I got upset over having my beliefs ridiculed.

If I hve maligned you or anyone else here Rose, I would expect you to be upset and angry with me. If you can show me where I have done so, I will be more than happy to apologize. However, this whole issue is not about me maligning anyone. It's about whether or not I have a right to embrace religious beliefs that are not widely accepted around here. As far as I am aware, there is not a specific set of religious beliefs that I have to ascribe to in order to be able to be a member of this forum. If I am wroing about that, please inform me.

If you stick around here long enough, you'll find that there are always three or four people who get offended when they are not allowed to impose their beliefs on other forum members. Many times they get angry and leave when they are asked to refrain from ridiculing other's religious beliefs. This should not be unexpected on a forum of people who for the most part were taught that anyone who does not believe like they do are not accepted in the group.

I wish you well Rose. I have no problem accepting your right to believe however you want to believe. There is room for everyone here. Inclusion is always more profitable than exclusion. It's okay to be angry if you feel like someone has offended you... as a matter of fact, it is very healthy. It shows that you are no longer a passive doormat, and are learning to stand up for yourself. It's also very healthy to process your anger in a way that will lead to letting others know what your needs are so that they don't violate your boundaries in the future. This is the beginning of recovery.

:cool:

[yeshua'smags]

[QUOTE=Voyager;42570]Just out of curiousity, I thought I would look up the definition of the word "bigotry". Here is what dictionary.com says:



I am very careful not to condemn or criticize anyone else's religious belief system on this forum. If I were unable to tolerate their beliefs that were different than mine, that would classify me as a bigot based on the dictionary's definition posted above.

Uh, really? Cuz that's kind of what it feels like. It's a dead horse, why don't you stop beating it?

[Voyager]

P.S. - This very same disagreement has happened over and over on this forum from its inception. I've been here almost eight years now, and I have seen this kind of debate happen at least 50 times. I have only been involved in a handful of them personally. Usually when someone else gets into this type of debate, I have learned to just back away and mind my own business. However, this one caught me offguard because it happened to me. I was going to back away and leave the forum for a while, but I decided to instead stick around and work through it. My way of working through things involves stating what my needs and my boundaries are, and also listening to what other's needs and boundaries are.

If someone is willing to engage in this process with me to aleviate any differences we have that cause personal attacks, it will help all of us. If someone wants to go away and be mad, that is their right to do so. But that doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut. By posting my needs and boundaries does not equate into my maligning someone else. I am just stating what my needs are. I am not telling anyone else that they have to believe the way I do, nor am I ridiculing their religious beliefs.

I hope this clears things up. My motive is to get along with everyone here if at all possible. If anyone suggests that my motives are different, they are mistaken and they don't really know me. Yes, I am a sensitive person... but I am also very compassionate and caring about the feelings of others. I don't intend to hurt anyone here. Unfortunately, this is not always possible when you have a bunch of wounded people trying to find common ground. Especially when we are on an anonymous forum as opposed to being face-to-face and heart-to-heart.

Peace. :cool:

[Voyager]

Uh, really? Cuz that's kind of what it feels like. It's a dead horse, why don't you stop beating it?
As long as there are three people here who are continually ridiculing my posts, to me it's not a dead horse. If it feels like I am condemning your beliefs, please show me where I have done so and I will apologize. If, on the other hand, I am simply stating that I have the right to embrace my own religious beliefs without having them ridiculed, them maybe you simply have a problem with me not believing like you do?

Again, if there is a specific set of religious beliefs that I have to ascribe to in order to be a member of this forum, please show them to me.

:confused:

[yeshua'smags]

Ok, and I respect you for that. But you have to admit, calling us bigots really isn't the way to get peace. And you may be reading what we are saying our needs are, but you are not taking them to heart.

I feel like you want us to shut up and listen to all of your new found wisdom, and if we disagree, you wave the "shame" flag or just blow us off as stupid sheep who are just regurgitating what some pastor has brainwashed us with.

No, I don't "know" you, but you don't know me either. I don't take anyone's word for anything. Whatever tiny grain of knowledge and belief system I may have was studied hard, or learned through life experiences. And I hate nothing more than for someone to come along and tell me that just because I may disagree with them, or try to share my beliefs, that makes me a bigot. No one is force feeding anyone here! You can't accuse anyone of a certain "tone" because we cannot hear eachother.

Do you really think that you can write the things you write on here and we are supposed to swallow it so you get your needs met?

Now I understand that this may sound harsh and like I'm yelling, but I'm really not. I promise. I'm truly asking, just a fact-finding mission. If you will just read what I'm saying and not read into what I'm saying, maybe we can understand eachother better?

[Voyager]

Look Mags - my beliefs were shamed and ridiculed on here. That is what started all of this. The reason I posted this thread on bigotry was to expose and discuss the very problem that has caused this forum to erupt into emotional chaos hundreds of times since its inception. Religious bigotry is when someone shames someone else for what they believe in. If you think I posted this thread in order to simply call someone a bigot, you have misjudged my motives. I posted this thread in order to work through the problem that started this whole debate.

What on earth is wrong with seeing what bigotry is and agreeing not to use it on each other? Okay, I get it - now I am trying to impose my beliefs on others.

[dougjb]

Human dignity
Hi Voyager,
This is an interesting topic because it has caused me to pause and think about what bigotry is all about. I am wondering whether a strictly different position [even strongly held positions] on a subject matter could fall into the category of bigotry. Even if a person is totally convinced that their position [theology] is correct and everyone else in the world is wrong, it is very possible that they are able to still have a mature, rational, coherent, and constructive discussion.
Over the years, I have had many discussions on a host of topics with people who held opposite positions than my own, and we were able to dialogue in a mature manner and end the conversation as friends. Unfortunately, not all discussions are conducted with a cool and rational mind-set. There are many people who have strong beliefs but are not able to defend them. In order to compensate for this deficiency, they will begin to attack with a plethora of assaults on the character of an individual. The thinking being is that if you are able to destroy the name, reputation, and character of messenger, then you have effectively destroyed the message. If the person is not credible, then the argument is not credible.
This is where bigotry comes into play. Bigots attack and attempt to destroy the person, as human beings, in order to prevail in whatever topic happens to be up for discussion. I guess what I am getting at the issue of ‘humanity dignity.’ We are created in the image of God. Apart from the whole sin issue, every human being deserves to be shown dignity as one created in God’s image. There are some people who do not see people as created in the image of God but as things to be used and abused to fulfill some narcissistic gratification. It is one thing to argue over differing beliefs, ideas, and opinions, and it is another thing to denigrate someone in the process. I believe that one aspect of bigotry involves the failure to differentiate the person and their beliefs. Bigots attack ‘human dignity.’
I like the topic – good job Voyager
Some food for thought
Dougjb

[Voyager]

I feel like you want us to shut up and listen to all of your new found wisdom, and if we disagree, you wave the "shame" flag or just blow us off as stupid sheep who are just regurgitating what some pastor has brainwashed us with.
This is not what I want at all. There are many, many times that I read threads here that are full of Bible verses, personal interpretations of Scripture, and even religious commandments directed at the forum in general. I could very easily look at these posts and feel like the authors want me to conform to their superior religious wisdom, but I don't - I just let them go.

I am not in this to win anything. I am just trying to discuss what caused the problem.

Peace. :cool:

[Voyager]

Unfortunately, not all discussions are conducted with a cool and rational mind-set. There are many people who have strong beliefs but are not able to defend them. In order to compensate for this deficiency, they will begin to attack with a plethora of assaults on the character of an individual. The thinking being is that if you are able to destroy the name, reputation, and character of messenger, then you have effectively destroyed the message. If the person is not credible, then the argument is not credible.

This is where bigotry comes into play. Bigots attack and attempt to destroy the person, as human beings, in order to prevail in whatever topic happens to be up for discussion.
Wow, what great insight Doug. Couldn't have come at a better time. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to destroy anyone's credibility, or attack anyone's character.

Lord knows how many of us have seen our former spiritual abusers use shaming, character attacks, and humiliation in order to destroy the credibility of someone who presented a message that didn't align with theirs. God forbid that we descend to that level, because if we do, we are using the same tactics that we escaped from. However, like I have said many times before, it's easy to leave spiritual abuse - but it's not as easy to get it to leave us.

Someone may accuse me of "beating a dead horse", but if this is one of the foundational causes of spiritual abuse - can this discussion every get old? Again, I am not directing any of this at any specific person or persons, but rather, merely bringing up a topic to discuss that is very dear to my heart. I am not trying to "win" any debate. As far as that goes, I'll even declare myself the loser if that makes anyone feel better.

:cool:

[yeshua'smags]

What happened was that you took something someone said the wrong way. It was not said to intentionally hurt you. It has been apologized for and supposedly forgiven. That is all. You got your buttons pushed. Welcome to the club.

You will not find scripture verses in most of my posts because I know they have been used to beat people. And though I may have a lot of passion in what I write, it is never, ever meant to be abusive.

You can believe whatever you want, I'm not trying to change your mind. I am, however, defending Clementine because I think this is terribly unfair to her.
And I will offer other opinions that may not jive with yours, if that's alright with you. And, if you don't mind, I may ask you to clairfy something if I don't understand where you are coming from. Are those fair requests?

[dougjb]

Hi voyager,
When I started writing the response, Mary was the only one on it. By the time I got my response on this threat there was quite the dialogue going on. The more I am thinking about the whole idea of bigotry, regardless of the topic, is not so much about the subject matter that is at issue but of power and domination over other people. You brought up the issue of doctrine and theology as means of forcing beliefs on people. There are groups that use theology and doctrine for personal gain and at the expense of others. I have seen more than my share of people using or misusing the bible, theology, and doctrine. Personally, I am very theologically, doctrinally, and confessionally minded and you have other opinions on the matter. I would love to have a mature, level headed discussion on the pro's and con's of issues regarding doctrine and theology. It can be a place great personal growth and to expose or recognize abusers.

Some food for thought
Dougjb

[Voyager]

You can believe whatever you want, I'm not trying to change your mind. I am, however, defending Clementine because I think this is terribly unfair to her.
To be honest with you, this thread was not aimed at Clementine at all. I'd prefer to not even bring back up what was said and forgiven. It's obvious to me that she is a very caring, warm, and compassionate individual and that she doesn't want to hurt anyone here. I have never questioned her motives or her intentions. If I need to apoligize to her for any misunderstanding on my part, I hereby do so. I will even send her a PM right now and apologize to her directly.

:cool: