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View Full Version : The Common Problem That We All Face


Voyager
11-23-2006, 11:01 AM
It dawned on me this morning that we all face a common problem on this forum, and I believe it is the cause of 99% of the emotional turmoil that erupts here.

Most of us came from abusive churches where a particular religious doctrine was preached that we and other fellow members were compelled to adhere to and obey. Many of these doctrines were based on Biblical principles, but for the most part, we were force-fed our pastor's personal interpretation of the Bible. Most of us were told that anyone who did not obey these doctrines was going to hell. Compliance to the pastor's interpretation of the Bible was usually strictly enforced. Now here's the big one: Most of us were taught not to fellowship with people who didn't believe like we did, and it was our religious duty to set them straight if they didn't.

Then one day we decided to leave our abusive church, or we got kicked out. As the influence of our former pastor's doctrines slowly wore off, we gradually began to develop our own religious beliefs. For most of us, these beliefs are still based on the Bible. Unless we joined a different church right after leaving the abusive church, there is a good chance that the new religious beliefs we develop are different than anyone else's. However, one of the principles that we were taught at our former abusive church may still remain as part of our belief system: We still think it is our religious duty to set people straight who do not believe like we do.

Personally, my religious beliefs have radically changed in the past eight years since I left my former abusive church. However, this did not happen overnight. For the first six months, I probably held onto 90% of the teachings that I had been under for the past 12 years. Within a year, I probably still believed in 75% of what I was taught at the church. With three years, this number had probably dwindled down to 60%, and so on. At the current time, I probably only believe in 10% or less of what I was taught at my former abusive church. In addition, I would imagine that it took me a good four years to allow others the liberty to believe whatever religious doctrines they wanted to without me "setting them straight" when their beliefs didn't align with my religious beliefs.

I no longer adhere to fundamentalistic Christian beliefs. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins to make me right with God, because I do still believe that. But that's about the only doctrine in the Bible that I really embrace. I now believe that much of the Bible was written by men who added a lot of their own beliefs along with the cultural traditions of their day to their writings (i.e. women should not speak in church, gays should be murdered, etc.). This new belief system of mine is not widely accepted on this forum, because the majority of you seem to adhere to Christian fundamentalism. I don't knock anyone for that, because I have finally accepted the fact that no one is required to believe the way I do to validate my belief system. However, many of you still feel the need to set people straight when they post something that doesn't align with your religious beliefs. This is exactly what causes this forum to go into chaos on a regular basis.

Now that I can see more clearly what caused me to get upset and threaten to take a break from the forum over the past few days, I am reconsidering my decision to leave for a while. I am probably going to simply back off from any religious debates and understand that many people here still feel the need to set people straight when they post something that doesn't align with their religious beliefs. I can now see this as more of a reflex action than anything. I don't think people here mean to shame others into compliance to their personal religious doctrines, but rather, this is just an automatic reaction that was instilled in them due to being under the teachings of their former (or current) abusive church.

To get a better idea of how this principle works, we can look at the different fundamentalistic religions out there. Take Islam for example. The teachers of Islamic fundamentalism require their followers to not only adhere to their strict legalistic religious rules, but they also command their followers to force others to comply with them. They even go as far as to strap on suicide bombs and blow up buildings with airplanes to intimidate others who do not follow their religious beliefs. Granted, the people who follow abusive religion in the USA may not go to these extremes, but the underlying principle is the same: The followers of these religions place the value of their religious doctrines above the value of their fellow human beings. Your worth and acceptance in these religions is based on your religious performance. This is a very hard influence to get rid of. Some are able to shake it off faster than others after they leave these religions, which is usually due to how quickly they get educated on the symptoms and principles of authoritarian cults.

I believe that what I have outlined above is the biggest problem we all face after leaving our abusive churches. Most of us were taught that everyone around us was supposed to adhere to the specific religious beliefs that we did, or they would go to hell. After leaving our former abusive churches, we take on our own religious beliefs. Chances are, unless you are in another fundamentalistic church, no one around you believes exactly the same way as you do anymore. Heck, my own wife doesn't even believe the same way I do! She has her own set of religious beliefs now, which are probably more fundamentalistic than mine are. This puts us all in a catch-22. If we decide to follow the teachings of our former churches and set people straight when they profess a different belief system than ours - we will be spending a lot of time correcting those around us. This leads to a lot of frustration and emotional turmoil. How many times have we seen this forum erupt into a big fight due to this very reason? It's probably in the hundreds by now. The moderator has even had to step in on numerous occasions to break up the fights.

I am going to make it a point from here on to try to remember what I have said here. If I see someone using shame to ridicule my beliefs, I pray that God will remind me that I used to do the same thing before I came to the conclusion that everyone is entitled to have their own religious beliefs, even if they don't even come close to aligning with mine. I also pray that we can all find the common ground that we do share on this forum as victims of religious abuse, and focus on that instead of on our differences.

As I conclude my post, I want to wish every one of you a very happy holiday season. If I have offended anyone here, I ask you to forgive me, and I apologize for having done so.

Voyager :cool:

Patty
11-23-2006, 12:12 PM
"We still think it is our religious duty to set people straight who do not believe like we do."

This used to be me. I look back now and can't believe I was ever like this. I am even ashamed.

Interestingly, I have noticed this same phenomena in my own extended family as we split right down the middle in our political leanings. One family member takes it upon themselves to "set us all straight" for the way those of us believe who are not of her political party. Its just as exasperating as the church people. Fortunately, since I was once so much like her, I can't be too harsh on her.

I have also noticed this type of social culture where I work. There is a certain power group that has banded together and they engage in superiority, gossip and exclusion towards other staff members who oppose their way of thinking. Luckily, since I have experienced spiritual abuse at its finest, I have gained a bit of thicker skin and am not sucked into manipulations of this group.

Glad you are staying!

ex-shep
11-23-2006, 12:17 PM
[QUOTE=Patty;42502]"We still think it is our religious duty to set people straight who do not believe like we do."

This used to be me. I look back now and can't believe I was ever like this. I am even ashamed.

Guilty as charged. It took me some time to get over that one. My aunt or one of my relatives saw it coming. I am the only conservative in a mostly liberal family. I had enough recovery to listen, detach, and play with Smokey the cat begging for scraps. It was 2000. The election had not been decided. Fortunately a relative nixed the topic, "It is too nice a day to discuss politics"

Voyager
11-23-2006, 12:56 PM
"We still think it is our religious duty to set people straight who do not believe like we do."

This used to be me. I look back now and can't believe I was ever like this. I am even ashamed.
We've come a long way, haven't we Patty? I remember when you and I used to get furious with each other when debating our religious ideologies years ago on this forum. I probably still have a ways to go, but I am willing. It just takes a while to pull out all of the garbage that was put into us in our former abusive churches. Sometimes we don't realize how deeply it is embedded in us.

:cool:

Willow
11-23-2006, 01:03 PM
I'm just glad you are staying Voyager... coz I want to hear about the progress of your new community center! I was wondering if you can get and city subsidization for that?

ex-shep
11-23-2006, 03:26 PM
I have to laugh at the post myself. My parents and sister were fanatical atheists. Add a young Jesus freak to the mix with one tablespoon of codependency, bake at a slow burn over wine and whine, one now has s'opposer dans les flammes To say it was a battle of the wills is an understatement. I think that was probably the impetus for the massive number of exit counselings out of Tammy's group in the 80's.

I really latched on the line in the Al-Anon preamble, "we became irritable becuase we tried to force solutions". I love a brother in 12 step recovery, speaking of the codependent dawnybrooks he walked away from, "It is a nice looking game board. The board is of the most intricate wood. The pieces are delicately made; but no thanks, I do not feel like playing"

My headmaster in prep school labelled me a "Latter Day Orestes Brownson". Read up on him to get the point. The headmaster was so virulent an atheist that he would have made Madelyn Murray O'Hair look like Aimee Semple McPherson. On the appellation, he was proabably right. I grew up a Unitarian and a liberal Quaker. [Only household I that sent their children to bed for sneaking a peek at Billy Graham]. In college was involved with charismatic groups and the Southern Baptists at the same type. After my walk out, I could not stomach even mainline churches. I took rationalistic approach to recovery.

In the past few years, I suspect the Lord tapped me on the shoulder, "you have recovered enough, I think you can handle church. I am back in evangelical settings, but without the legalistic and abusive trappings. Even in Tammy's group there is a sense of "how do we get it right this time"

Interesting post and one poster's story. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Patty
11-24-2006, 06:01 AM
We've come a long way, haven't we Patty? I remember when you and I used to get furious with each other when debating our religious ideologies years ago on this forum.

Yes, Voyager, I very much remember our debates. And from this recent conversation on this board, I really came to comprehend how steeped I was in the SA thinking back then...we both were. I was frantic. I was trying somehow to stay sane. We HAVE come a long way.

Because of this insight, last night at Thanksgiving dinner with my very big, loug, argumentative, extended family, I found myself calmer and in a more listening mood. No fighting occurred (at least, on my part!)

Carmen
11-24-2006, 08:19 AM
Personally, my religious beliefs have radically changed in the past eight years since I left my former abusive church. However, this did not happen overnight. For the first six months, I probably held onto 90% of the teachings that I had been under for the past 12 years. Within a year, I probably still believed in 75% of what I was taught at the church. With three years, this number had probably dwindled down to 60%, and so on. At the current time, I probably only believe in 10% or less of what I was taught at my former abusive church. In addition, I would imagine that it took me a good four years to allow others the liberty to believe whatever religious doctrines they wanted to without me "setting them straight" when their beliefs didn't align with my religious beliefs.

I no longer adhere to fundamentalistic Christian beliefs. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins to make me right with God, because I do still believe that. But that's about the only doctrine in the Bible that I really embrace. I now believe that much of the Bible was written by men who added a lot of their own beliefs along with the cultural traditions of their day to their writings (i.e. women should not speak in church, gays should be murdered, etc.). This new belief system of mine is not widely accepted on this forum, because the majority of you seem to adhere to Christian fundamentalism. I don't knock anyone for that, because I have finally accepted the fact that no one is required to believe the way I do to validate my belief system.

I can "ditto" that, except to say that most changes took place within the last four years for me. My beliefs are not well accepted in many Christian circles either, I am accused (not here thank goodness) of being too intellectual, feminist, humanist, you-name-it.

For the most part I have learned to just keep my beliefs down to opinions, rather than orders. But even disagreeing with others isn't always taken very well, it is seen as "negative" where negative=bad. That is another of my pet peeves. I am dealing with that right now in a bible study I visit. Last week I told a few that the home situation is tense, not in detail, I don't think it went over well. It was too negative for them. Now I am getting the standard treatment, "make sure you are gentle, long-suffering, etc., etc." Been doing that during 12 years of slowly growing abuse. They think that I disagreed with my biblical counselor on that issue. They don't know that the biblical counselor was the one that told me to consider leaving the relationship, and that immediately. The disagreement with biblical counselor ensued over the fact that I don't want to mess up my legal position by "kidnapping" the kids to another country overnight. I consulted a lawyer that warned me about that. I have to go with Hubby's approval to get around that, a "vacation" is being arranged for June. Hubby's behavior in the next months will determine if it is only a vacation or permanent.
I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place. Biblical counselor, bible-study ladies, Hubby, kids, lawyer, spiritual abuse to boot - still unresolved, will be seeing a real psych. in 1 1/2 weeks.

I'm glad that this forum is here.

I'm glad you are not leaving, Voyager. :)

SueJean
11-24-2006, 08:52 AM
I sooooooo agree w/ all who posted here. Yes, I'm nodding my head, I gotta be right this time. I just gotta!!! Whoa. Sez who? I hope to make it to a 12 Step meeting tonight after paying my respects at a funeral home for a neighbor. I have plenty to learn. I welcome challenges to my stinkin' thinkin.' I wanna change. Thanks to you all for being patient w/ me.
And, Voyager, hugs in abundance. Thanks for being you. Clementine, thanks for being you. All of you, thanks for being you.
Reading the recent posts, I felt a number of emotions. This is good for me. In spite of what I was feeling, I still felt safe. That's a wonderful feeling. You all are helping me to continue to attend meetings...even if I just sit there. It's a start. I refuse to become like the group that I left. Opps. I hope that's not coming across dogmatic. I'm searching for words ... After four years of intense counseling and then ten years being an active part of ACOA, I was beginning to like who I was becoming. I don't like who I am at the moment. I want to like myself again. I want to love myself again-- " love my neighbor as myself." That's what I'm attempting to verbalize. Not force myself on people; not force my beliefs, opinions, thoughts, "this is the right way to do ... whatever."
Feeling safe is a start for me. And, this series of postings, as intense as it felt to me, I still felt safe. It ... all of the postings allowed me the time to feel as well as to think.
Thank you. Thank you all very much.

mary
11-24-2006, 08:55 AM
For the most part I have learned to just keep my beliefs down to opinions, rather than orders. But even disagreeing with others isn't always taken very well, it is seen as "negative" where negative=bad. That is another of my pet peeves. I am dealing with that right now in a bible study I visit. Last week I told a few that the home situation is tense, not in detail, I don't think it went over well. It was too negative for them. Now I am getting the standard treatment, "make sure you are gentle, long-suffering, etc., etc." Been doing that during 12 years of slowly growing abuse. They think that I disagreed with my biblical counselor on that issue. They don't know that the biblical counselor was the one that told me to consider leaving the relationship, and that immediately. The disagreement with biblical counselor ensued over the fact that I don't want to mess up my legal position by "kidnapping" the kids to another country overnight. I consulted a lawyer that warned me about that. I have to go with Hubby's approval to get around that, a "vacation" is being arranged for June. Hubby's behavior in the next months will determine if it is only a vacation or permanent.
I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place. Biblical counselor, bible-study ladies, Hubby, kids, lawyer, spiritual abuse to boot - still unresolved, will be seeing a real psych. in 1 1/2 weeks.

I'm glad that this forum is here.



((((((Carmen!)))))))

And we're glad that you're here! Will be praying for you... I will pray that the psych. you'll be seeing is a good-hearted, professional person who'll be of real help to you. That Bible study group sounds like "par-for-the-course" of things like that and I'm sorry you encountered what you did... I've actually been in only one Bible study group - the one we're in now - in which people can really share things and everything is dealt with Biblically and with the type of lovingkindness that the Lord Himself would extend to us. I pray that you'll find that type of group, for I know they're out there.

Please continue to keep us apprised, okay? The things you're going through are so important to the rest of your life and your children's, certainly... (I've a huge soft spot where kids are concerned - not obvious, is it? ;) )

May the Lord bless you richly, Carmen, and give you grace in His view of abundance! (Always more than we can envision...)

Love,

mary

beginagainrose
11-24-2006, 10:54 AM
Be ready, in and out of season, to give an account for the hope that lies within you.... yet, charity in all things... none of us have it all right. There was only One who had perfect understanding...and they crucified Him. True wisdom comes from knowing when to be silent and when to speak.:)