Is This a Support Group?

[Voyager]

I hesitate to post this, but I feel like I need to make a statement before I take an indefinite break from this forum.

I come here to find support and recovery from spiritual abuse, and to help others find the same. When I think about a "support group", I think of a place where struggling people can safely share their heart without getting condemned or maligned, and also receive encouragement and support. Last night I shared my heart in a thread and became very vulnerable about what is going on in my life right now. When I checked the thread this morning, the first reply literally made me gasp for breath. It ridiculed and maligned everything I had shared in my post. After reading the first few lines of the reply I stopped because I could not read any more. Later tonight I read the rest of the reply, and it made me so irate that I left my home and went straight to an A.A. meeting.

At the A.A. meeting, the members were all able to share their hearts. Many of them made themselves vulnerable and shared things that were very personal. Not one person replied with any condemning or condescending remarks after each member shared. I can only imagine what the atmosphere would have been like if someone had done so. It probably would have made the person who got ridiculed very reluctant to ever share from their heart again. They may have even got up and walked out of the meeting. In most recovery groups, this type of reply is called "crosstalk", and it is strictly prohibited.

That's exactly what happened to me here today. I do not plan to share from my heart here again anytime soon. It is not a safe place when people are allowed to ridicule someone's opinions and beliefs. A lot of people share things at A.A. meetings that not everyone agrees with, but no one ever sets anyone straight afterwards. Their motto is "Take what you need and leave the rest".

I realize that newcomers come here straight out of being programmed by spiritual abusers. I was one of them. Many times after being programmed to set people straight with religious shame, we continue using this principle until we see how damaging it can be to others. However, between the time we get away from the abuse and the time that we see how much we are still influenced by the abuse, we can be very dangerous. Unfortunately, knowing this doesn't make it any easier when someone blasts my posts with a bunch of religious shame. For me, it never gets any easier to bear the impact from the blow of a shaming sermon. I don't know why I set myself up like this still. I guess I feel like maybe this place has finally become safe to make myself vulnerable and share from my heart, and then WHAM! - someone sucker-punches me with a condescending religious knockout punch that i didn't even see coming.

Clementine, I hope that you don't take this as a personal rebuke, and I really hope that you stick around here and find the healing that you are looking for. Know that you are not the first person to unknowingly do this to someone. Lord knows I have done it to people here in the past when I didn't know any better. But I still feel the need to address it. I don't know what can be done to stop this in the future, but I wish there was a way. It will never get any healthier or easier to deal with. Maybe a small number of you are able to walk away from this kind of thing and not let it bother you, but for the most part, this type of action has caused this forum to go into meltdown time after time after time over the past seven years that I have been here.

For now, I will share my heart somewhere else where it is safe to do so.

:(

[Satscout]

oh (((((((Voyager)))))))...

Do what you have to do to be in a safe place. But know that if you need to leave for a while, you will be missed.

It has been said before that one of the hardest things about an online forum is that we miss the 90% or more of communication that takes place without words. Emoticons just don't cover it. So you'll have to imagine the waves of empathy I'm sending at the moment.

I didn't chime in on the other thread - just read it tonight - but I think your core idea is sound. We were created as beings with a need for community. Your goal is to replace an unhealthy community (the old church) with something healthy (the planned center) instead of leaving a void. Since the positive thinking doctrine doesn't happen to be one of my triggers, I could see what you were saying without taking it the wrong way. :o

You are right in this also: As helpful as an online forum is, it can never have the same impact as a f2f support group - for many of the reasons you mentioned. But I offer this caveat. For those of us with little or no recourse for f2f support, the forum has been a godsend. So we come back to the old maxim "take what works and leave the rest".

God bless you and yours, Voyager. I value what you have said here.

[renee nelson]

I left my home and went straight to an A.A. meeting.
I am so glad to hear that you made the choice to go to a AA meeting. I have been going to 12 step groups for 15 years and I really get a lot of good out of them. I appreciate the 12 steps and the 12 traditions.
As far as your pain/frustration about the posts, I appreciate you sharing about it, we can all learn from each other.

Thank you, Renee

[mary]

Oh, dear Voyager,

I do hope you don't check out and leave us, but if you feel you must, please know that you will be missed and welcomed back warmly by all when/if you do return! :)

As you may know, I left for a week recently... My doctrinal views are different from almost everyone else's here. I came back because, well, this is a support group, and I've found help here in the past, and I don't have anywhere else to go. You and I and some others differ doctrinally, theologically, etc., but I meant what I said yesterday to you. I so admire very much about you and I would miss you.

Love to others can only be unconditional... We've all been so badly abused in false churches (I wouldn't call any of the ones I've heard about here representations of real assemblies of the Body of Christ; they're all just gatherings of demons) that we all very much need some representations of real caring, real love. We've all had way too much of the opposite.

You are where you are right now, and I respect that. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong because you desperately don't need to hear that now. You need rest and peace and love and I hope it comes your way... especially at this time of year, which is so hard for so many.

Take good care of yourself, Voyager... :) (And I hope you don't leave!)

mary

[InTheory]

Love ya Voyager! ((hugs))
You're a great contributor here-but definitely do what you need to do, bro.

Drop me a line anytime

-Dan

[SpinningHead]

((((voyager))))

Please stay!!! I need to read your posts.

Clementine apologized and she seemed sincere. She only projected the abusive thinking that she endured...in a way she was revealing something about herself. We've all done that at one time or another...We all learn by inserting foot and chewing hartily. Won't you please give her another chance?

I just really want you to stay.

Love,

[beginagainrose]

It is until someone says something that others dont want to hear. We all have to fight against that or this becomes a place of "no affect" and we become "physicians of no use". Whether it is "the truth hurts" or that responses are "out to lunch in left field", we need to press though and pass our tests of "take no offense" for this forum to be effective. I hope you can get beyond this and stick around. the missed opportunities will be costly for everyone concerned if you dont.

[SueJean]

Oh, Voyager, I hope that I didn't write something that upset you. If I did, I am so sorry. That's the last thing that I want to do to anyone here. I'm glad that you brought up 12 Step groups. I am soooooo glad that I attend ACOA as well as Al-Anon meetings. Please, keep in touch. You're one of the reasons that I keep coming back to this forum.

[Anna Marta]

It is until someone says something that others dont want to hear. We all have to fight against that or this becomes a place of "no affect" and we become "physicians of no use". Whether it is "the truth hurts" or that responses are "out to lunch in left field", we need to press though and pass our tests of "take no offense" for this forum to be effective. I hope you can get beyond this and stick around. the missed opportunities will be costly for everyone concerned if you dont.

Ah, words of "great wisdom" - thank you

Mercy and grace,
Anna Marta

[Voyager]

...we need to press though and pass our tests of "take no offense" for this forum to be effective. I hope you can get beyond this and stick around.
Oh I see, I should be willing to accept shaming sermons and just take no offense and stick around. Okay, I'll make you a deal. You go back to your abusive church, listen to the shaming sermons, take no offense, and stick around. After you do that, maybe I'll consider doing the same. Then we can all "get over it and move on" together.

It's not a matter of having tough skin. It's a matter of whether a place is safe enough to open your heart in and become vulnerable enough to share sensitive personal matters. I know of plenty of forums that I can debate religious views in. I don't bear my heart in those forums because they are not safe. This place is the one forum that I figured would be safe enough to bear my heart in. But I've learned the hard way numerous times that this is not the case.

What happens when you bear your heart to a friend and then they shame you? With most people, they are very reluctant to do so ever again - especially if it happens again and again.

:cool:

[InTheory]

Voyager, I understand your conflict-I do think that many here appreciate your posts, and I hate to see you go, but I also understand your hesitance.
From what I have seen, there is a great component of support here, but it is combined with a fair amount of particular religious conviction as well, which can sometimes lead to the kind of interchanges that you have had.
This is the main reason why I don't post a lot here-I know that, because of my change in many convictions (i.e. not believing in inerrancy and many other previously held beliefs), I can't necessarily "let it all hang out" without some level of controversy (although the people here are generally very supportive in my experience).

If you leave, I hope you come back and keep at least sharing your general perspectives, even if you don't "pour out your heart."

I appreciate you.

-Dan

[ninaspirit]

no no no,,,, this forum is not about passing tests.....we are not here for making tests for other members,,,,tests are our own personal matter....this forum is about learning from each other and being encouraged to do what is helpful and healing - taking what works and leave the rest - as is possible....but yes when shaming happens it does need to be adressed.

Clementine did see that she upset you Voyager....she did apologize....and perhaps is learning how this forum operates....and no you do not have to respond ....or even atempt to hear her ....or "put up" with shaming....and by speaking out you are showing that you will not put up with it.

you have a lot of great ideas about how you would like to see your family life and comunity happen - and that comes from your very well meaning heart.....so keep doing that.

The reality is that in any suport groups face to face or online people will say things that are not helpful,, even hurtful.....and each person must do what they feel is best for them in the situation - if you wish to stay and work through it or if you wish to find a place that is safer for you. every one is where they are at in their own healing process....the person receiving and the person giving.....and others might even miss the cues... someone will make that shaming mistake in a religious way or just because of how they are....it doesnt mean you should allow it but maybe this can be used as a way to learn how to handle "shaming" better so when it does happen we can learn from it and use it later?

it probly doesnt make sense that we even post this cuz we are afraid of exactly what you say - of sharing and being shamed because it has been our experience in much of our life and we dont know how to deal with shaming very well at all.....but people here do care and are loving and willing to work through problems.....and the same problem will happen more than once becuase there are always new people coming...there are no exact rules at the door when new people come in that says do say this and don't say that - every one learns as they get to know each other....so yah it is good you spoke up so this problem can be worked through again for a new person if they choose to do that.

we mean this with the best intention to encourage you - you did the right thing by speaking up and you are doing a great thing by investing your life with your family into a family center so more people have a safe place to go and just be themself. :) sincerly ninas.

[beginagainrose]

V... It's not your shame... it's theirs...don't own it. Sorry your offended. I stand by what I said as truth...albiet, painful... If you have been here awhile you might remember I have earned my right to be heard on this issue... the hard way. Gotta shake off the snake bit... and by that I mean that the enemy is the one trying to get us to turn on each other here. He knows the God-destined potential in all of us and would love nothing better than to sabatoge The Father's purpose... and for the record... I took blazing shame from the pulpit at my old church for almost a year after confronting my pastor and leaders...took death threats, wire tapes, sting entrapment efforts trying to get me to bite the hook and throw me in prison, and suffer such pure terror I think Osama would've been proud... I think that must qualify and count for something. Again, I wasnt trying to hurt you or anger you but to help you focus on your purpose for being here and your effectiveness lost if you leave. You have awesome ideas and great threads. I would just hate to see that lost. I know people say things; mean-meaning to and not meaning to.. how could a "room" of wounded people get together and not touch some pretty tender places... if not here where?... have you got somewhere else to go?... I havent found one.(yeah, I looked) For all it's flaws... this is still the best game in town for working through the nightmare handed to each of us. Hope venting a bit more helped you... you aint heavy, man... your my brother.

[beginagainrose]

NinaS... let me clear up one other thing here... the "test of no offense" is not ours to give to each other... they come sovreignly from the Lord. He allows things to touch our lives... but make no mistake...they are tests... there was an awesome book out awhile back, I think it was called "The 7 Tests of God" or something close to that; sorry I cannot recall each one but the ONE that stuck was the "test of no offense"... not that these things we experience are not offensive.. but the test from God is that we CHOOSE not to TAKE the offense; but let it pass. The basic premise of the book was that if we are going to step into maturity and effective leadership in whatever capacity God has; we must pass these basic tests... it we resort to each of us effectively "doing what is right in our OWN eyes" how are we any different from the world. We sure better TRY to keep The Word as our standard and yardstick even though there is obviously so much "debate" in The Body of Christ. We certainly should aspire here not to become to each other what we have experienced in our abuse churhes or "the political system" that obviously exists and is rampant in The Church. But honestly, The Shepherd should be the One we are still accountable to here or anywhere for that matter.... and yes, for the record... walking in Love is still the most important priority.

[Voyager]

Clementine did see that she upset you Voyager....she did apologize....and perhaps is learning how this forum operates....and no you do not have to respond ....or even atempt to hear her ....or "put up" with shaming....and by speaking out you are showing that you will not put up with it.
Thanks for pointing that out Ninas. I do accept Clementine's apology. I also hope that she is not too upset to keep posting here. I have always appreciated her posts, and yours too. It's very rare that I let things get me upset like this, but alas, the old trigger mechanism is obviously still in good working order.

:(

[Voyager]

V... It's not your shame... it's theirs...don't own it...

Again, I wasnt trying to hurt you or anger you but to help you focus on your purpose for being here and your effectiveness lost if you leave. You have awesome ideas and great threads. I would just hate to see that lost. I know people say things; mean-meaning to and not meaning to.. how could a "room" of wounded people get together and not touch some pretty tender places... if not here where?... have you got somewhere else to go?... I havent found one.(yeah, I looked) For all it's flaws... this is still the best game in town for working through the nightmare handed to each of us. Hope venting a bit more helped you... you aint heavy, man... your my brother.
You're right Rose, and I haven't found a better place to share about spiritual abuse either. Thanks for being a friend to me even when I show my human side.

You are all awesome, and I don't deserve good friends like you.

:o

[yeshua'smags]

actually you guys have really hurt her and freaked her out. She's relatively new and has stepped in the same piles of crap I always seem to step in, so I know how she feels. She wasn't trying to hurt anyone. It's all very confusing on here you know. No one can possibly know everyone else's triggers and nerves, I think we should all respect that factor too.
I didn't know we weren't allowed to disagree with you. You say things that trigger me all the time, did you know that? She apologized and yet continued to get pounded on. I think this was taken way too far. :(

[Voyager]

I didn't know we weren't allowed to disagree with you. You say things that trigger me all the time, did you know that? She apologized and yet continued to get pounded on. I think this was taken way too far.
Okay, here we go again. After this I am out of here. I should have know this was coming. Deja vu.

Let me make something clear. This is more than disgreement. I posted something very personal, which had to do with my needs, my pain, and personal beliefs. Then I was shamed and told that my beliefs were wrong and didn't line up with the Bible, and that Jesus didn't care about my goals or my success. That crossed the line.

You say I trigger you? When was the last time I told you your beliefs were wrong and shamed you for them? If you can find one post where I did that, I will beg for your forgiveness.

I am bailing out of here before the storm reaches F5 status.

:cool:

[yeshua'smags]

Jesus, calm down. I wasn't "shaming" you or whatever. I'm not charismatic, nor was I raised charismatic. I thought shaming was just something my mother did. I have not been schooled in this christian clubbing, so there is no way I'd be able to use it on you.

You haven't done it to me because it isn't one of my "triggers". Sometimes things you say make me feel like you are treating us like we are stupid for what we believe. JUST MY PERCEPTION. I wanted you to know you sometimes trigger me too, but I don't beat you over the head with it.

I'm not trying to flip you out or start a fight, I just wanted to point out that Clementine is very sorry and upset and I thought you might like to know that since you said you accepted her apology.

[ninaspirit]

thank you rose for clearing up where you are coming from. :)



yeshuamags,
we hope that what we wrote was not taken as a slant against Clementine - not at all ment that way. we were validating Voyager in his expereince, and saying that he has options about how he might want to work through this. is all. Clementine offered her apologies and I believe she is sincere, and that the issue is Voyagers in how he chooses to deal with this expeirence - that is all we were saying - no presure on either. we hope people can see that. sorry if it came out otherwise.

sincerely ninas.

[Carmen]

((Voyager)),

I appreciate your insight here, I think it helps form a conservative/liberal balance that would otherwise be a bit lopsided imo. I like to read your posts.

This is an open forum for anyone to come to, and you said yourself how new people sometimes bring along baggage from abuse, we've all got baggage to sort through. Sometimes our baggage clashes. This forum is the safest one I've been to.

Sorry you're freaking out. If you're just taking a break (absent or just lurking), remember that I'll miss you too.

[beginagainrose]

YS!... NOthing I said was pointed at Clementine... I was speaking in broad general terms regarding each of us here and beyond... come on now, Voyager... hang on... the storm is only tropical... eh... topical status... may the next word you hear be from His Spirit, "Peace, be still."... Clementine... I so understand what you are going through... I so seek your forgivenss if you though any of my posts here were directed at you personally...they were not. This was exactly the point of my first post on this issue about how the enemy wants to divide us and run us out of here! He doesnt want us to see any healing let alone deliverance from what he has accomplished. He need to stay focused on defeating HIS offenses!:mad: