What Do You Need From Life?

[Voyager]

I was going to post this on the Lack Of Community thread, but it's kind of taken a different direction now so I decided to start a new thread.

My wife and I have been watching a DVD called "The Secret" for the past few days. It talks about a topic that I had pretty much discarded along with the rest of the phony religious doctrinal baggage from my former abusive church. After sorting through the all the shaming, humiliating, manipulative, guilt-ridden, and fear-based teachings from my former pastor - we literally "threw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak. The “baby” that I am speaking of is FAITH. Instead of holding onto my faith, I mistakenly labeled it the "name-it-and-claim-it" doctrine and threw it out the window.

The DVD that we watched talked about the impact of our thoughts and our words. It had at least eight different speakers on it that have all become highly successful entrepreneurs, consultants, authors, etc. They all believe in same the "secret" that they attribute to being the catalyst of their successes. What this “secret” basically boils down to is this: Think and talk about the things you need and want, and what your goals are in life INSTEAD of complaining about what you don't have. They say that complaining about what you don't have causes you to spend all your energy on negativity instead of using your energy to focus on and attain your goals. The result of complaining produces negative energy, and the result of thinking and talking about what you want out of life produces positive energy. Whichever type of energy you produce will affect your surroundings and determine your fate in life.

I realize that for some of you this may sound like some of the hocus-pocus B.S. that we heard in our abusive churches - but I am confident that this is one of the very few good things that were taught in my former church. I threw all of the rest of the bad doctrines out the window, and rightfully so. However, I had already seen this principle work in my marriage, in my businesses, and in other areas of my life - so I knew it works. I just let go of it because I lumped it in with all of the other cultic doctrines, which was a big mistake.

For the last eight years, I have been grieving and complaining about my two daughters not having any outside family. When we left our former church, we lost all of the people who would have been surrogate aunts, uncles, grandparents, and cousins for them. My wife never felt as bad as I did about this, probably because she has a nurturing and protecting heart (as most mothers do). As a father, I have the heart of a provider. I was fully capable of meeting the financial and material needs of my children, but because I could not become a replacement aunt, uncle, grandparent, or cousin for them - my heart was ripped to shreds. Every time I saw a grandma or grandpa walking with a little kid in a store, I would fall apart inside emotionally. I remember shedding tears numerous times walking through Wal-Mart when this would happen. I felt like I had failed my kids because I couldn't become or provide these much-needed figures for them. The grief that ensued because of this void drove me to depression, isolation, withdrawal from society, and eventually even substance abuse to self-medicate my emotional pain. Since I couldn't bring myself to attend a church again, I saw no way to find surrogate family members for my children. It literally debilitated me. I felt like I was up against a brick wall.

After my wife and I watched the DVD "The Secret" for the third time tonight, I told her that I wasn't sure if I really wanted to go ahead with the addiction recovery program that we were planning (see the Community thread that I started). She agreed that it might not be the best thing for our children to surround them with addicts and alcoholics as replacement aunts, uncles, grandparents, and cousins. Instead, she mentioned "What about just starting a social group for parents and families?" What a stroke of genius!!! I spun my chair around and Googled "social groups" and found a website named meetup.com. Instantly I found social groups for every topic imaginable in every area of the country - including parent groups. I clicked on a few of them and started getting ideas immediately.

Afterwards, we changed our plan a little. We are still going to lease the facility next to our business and furnish it with a small arcade, a fitness room, card and game tables, and a kitchen - but the clientele that will frequent the organization will be parents and their children, couples, singles, and senior citizens. On Sundays from noon to 6:00pm will be potluck day with all of the rooms open to members. One night a week will be poker night for the guys. Another night will be ladies night (they could go shopping while the men and seniors watch the kids). Several nights a week will be fitness nights. On Fridays we will have a game night for the kids. If enough musicians join the group (as I'm sure they will), we will have a live band night (no heavy metal - LOL!). I can even envision a monthly talent night for the kids. All of these will be listed on our monthly online calendar (and probably advertised in our local newspaper).

And to think that just last week I was going to go to a rehab! I didn't need a rehab - I just needed a community. I wasn't even drinking, just taking very small doses of painkillers to self-medicate my emotional grief from not being able to provide an extended family for my kids. All that was needed was to shift my focus from complaining about what I didn't have to thinking and talking about what I wanted in life. The DVD that we watched said to write down your goals, wants, and needs on a piece of paper and begin to think and talk about them. Little did I realize that within a few days of doing so, I am seeing them start to become a reality!

P.S. - Here's a link to get that DVD if you have any interest in it: http://whatisthesecret.tv

I would consider it a very wise $29.00 investment. I bought five of them and sent them out to my friends. If any of you really can't afford one, let me know and I'll take care of you.

:cool:

[clementine]

Hi Voyager,
I have also heard about this 'secret' in some churches...and I have some concerns. Hope you don't mind if I share them. I come in peace...:)

They all believe in same the "secret" that they attribute to being the catalyst of their successes. What this “secret” basically boils down to is this: Think and talk about the things you need and want, and what your goals are in life INSTEAD of complaining about what you don't have. They say that complaining about what you don't have causes you to spend all your energy on negativity instead of using your energy to focus on and attain your goals. The result of complaining produces negative energy, and the result of thinking and talking about what you want out of life produces positive energy. Whichever type of energy you produce will affect your surroundings and determine your fate in life.

Is being successful what being a follower of Jesus is all about? Is being God's child all about achieving life goals? I'd have to differ here. The Jesus I read about is not really concerned about how successful we are or how many life goals we achieve. I think he's more concerned with the state of our heart and whether or not we love him and help people in need. I believe that's where God's heart is.

I think we can talk about our difficult circumstances...that doesn't mean we are complaining about them. I think greiving stuff is OK and healthy. Not to grieve is not to be real with ourselves, each other and with God. I do believe God just wants us to trust him each day for all our needs and not get hung on what we don't have.

Whichever type of energy you produce will affect your surroundings and determine your fate in life.

We make choices in our lives but ultimately God is sovereign, surely? It's not down to energy!

The other concern I have with this line of thinking is that it is fairly harmless in our comfortable Western bubbles but take it to a developing country where people are dying of illness, poverty and starvation then it becomes a slap in the face. No amount of positive thinking is going to help them!!!!! How can we tell a 10 year old child who has been sold into slavery that by thinking positively they will get out of their situation?! Do we say to a woman whose husband has been beaten to death for his faith in Jesus (yes, it's happening all around the world) that she needs to focus on the positive???? Is that all we have to say to people who are suffering?

Many of the people in developing countries are suffering because of the selfishness and greed of the Western world. They didn't necessarily bring it on themselves. How dare we tell them to think positively!

The only message I can offer them is that I'm sorry for my part in their suffering, help them in whatever way I can, and tell them that they have a God in heaven who loves them and who they can call out to. May their cries resound in our ears!!!!

I hear your grief and I think it's entirely valid. Of course you want the best for your children. Of course you're heartbroken!!!! But I believe that only God can heal your heart and provide your needs. All you have to do is pour out your grief at his feet and ask for those things. No amount of positive thinking can mend the brokenness in your life or mine. Only God can.

Jeremiah 8:11 talks about those who "...dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace', they say, when there is no peace." I was reminded of that passage as I read your post. This teaching, this 'secret', does not take your broken heart seriously. This 'secret' offers you hollow promises that everything will be OK. We live in a world where everything is not OK - and our only hope is JESUS.

I think your ideas are good...but ask God. He knows best. He will guide and provide if you walk closely with him and seek HIS will in all this. Don't do it in your own strength. Positive thinking isn't a bad idea - it just isn't the be all and end all. At the end of the day we are soooo fragile and our positive thinking and aspirations could get blown away at any given moment if that's all we're hanging on to. Better to hang to the one and only ROCK.

I agree, we need community...but firstly we need Jesus. We need him more than anything or anyone else.

Have I preached a sermon? Please forgive me. I'd just hate you to end up in a worse place than you are already because of hollow teaching that isn't based in reality or on the Bible or on Jesus.

Peace (the real stuff) to you and yours,
Clementine

[SueJean]

Voyager, I think I hear what you are saying. I think so. If I may share my thoughts... I am attending Adult Children of Alcoholics as well as Al-Anon meetings. Notice: I am attending the meetings. I am there. I am learning to listen 'cause I don't always do a good job of really listening. In this on-going process, I think about what I've heard. I'm being challenged to examine my thinking. Opportunities are given to share during the meetings as well as following. I've taken few of those opportunities. However, I don't plan on remaining that way. I'm taking the time to listen. I gotta start somewhere. For me, faith & trust go hand in hand. My faith & trust are low, low, low. Attending meetings is just a start, just a start. I'm just beginning to reach out to those at the ACOA group. Eighteen months and I'm just beginning to reach out and talk w/ a few people. It had its start in just attending one meeting.

[Carmen]

I think I know what you're getting at, Voyager, is it something like positive thinking?

Sure, I think that focusing on the positive is better, as long as that doesn't become a doctrine. While I was into the Word-Faith stuff, it was practically a sin to mention something negative, I thought that surely I'd experience something bad because of it. I would confess positively, usually about money or things, as part of the prosperity gospel. :rolleyes:

I know some that exclude everything that could even remotely be negative from their conversations, avoiding negative subjects (like SA) like the plague. For them it is almost a doctrine, it is definitely taboo to say anything that isn't positive or at least neutral.

I think that as long as we don't make a big issue out of it, then thinking positively could be a healthy attitude. That isn't really a secret, but maybe lost knowledge that can be recovered and effectively applied.

[mary]

Dear Voyager,

Your children have one of the greatest blessings they can have on this earth: a great earthly father! :) You need not cry for them, for they have you and they have your wife (she sounds like a tremendous mother) for parents.

I understand what you're saying; boy, do I understand. I had a couple of rip-roaring alcoholics for parents - and a beating, similar to the ones my father used to give me when I was living at home, eventually killed my ravaged-by-booze, weakened mother when she was 64. Because I left the Catholic Church, my birth and other extended family wants nothing to do with me. "Find something else to do" for Thanksgiving, they said this year - and last week, I was told I likely have a rare, bone marrow cancer. More tests will be done, but there's a palpable chance that this will be my last Thanksgiving here on earth.

Am I crying about it? Absolutely not! I have my husband, I have my son. I have dear, Christian friends. Even if all were to leave me, though, I still have my Lord and Savior, and He will never leave me or forsake me. He'll be there, even if worse comes to worst. But "worst" won't really be "worst!" :D

Voyager, reading your post about your children is like a breath of fresh air to me. What a wonderful father you must be! We all have our flaws -- but oh, how blessed your children are! They can have a glimpse of what divine love is - through you. They are loved so much that their father is troubled in his spirit by what the world doesn't give them... That's a very special, tremendous gift.

Happy Thanksgiving, Voyager, to you and to all your family, especially your precious children...

In His love,

mary

[Voyager]

Is being successful what being a follower of Jesus is all about? Is being God's child all about achieving life goals? I'd have to differ here. The Jesus I read about is not really concerned about how successful we are or how many life goals we achieve. I think he's more concerned with the state of our heart and whether or not we love him and help people in need. I believe that's where God's heart is.
Clementine,

While I wholeheartedly respect your religious beliefs, I do not not need anyone to question my religious beliefs or accuse me of not following Jesus in the proper way. That is not what I am here for. If I needed that I would go back to church.

Since you asked about my religious beliefs, I will explain them to you: Jesus died for my sins and made me right with God. That's it - period. That's all the deeper my religion goes.

:cool:

[Voyager]

Voyager, reading your post about your children is like a breath of fresh air to me. What a wonderful father you must be! We all have our flaws -- but oh, how blessed your children are! They can have a glimpse of what divine love is - through you. They are loved so much that their father is troubled in his spirit by what the world doesn't give them... That's a very special, tremendous gift.

Happy Thanksgiving, Voyager, to you and to all your family, especially your precious children...
Thank you for hearing my heart Mary. God bless you, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours too!!!

:cool:

[Voyager]

Sure, I think that focusing on the positive is better, as long as that doesn't become a doctrine.
I agree Carmen, and thanks for reminding me of that. That's why I threw the "name-it-and-claim-it" doctrine out the window to begin with after being spiritually abused. In my former church, we were warned not to be "negative". We were told that anything short of faith was sin. That doctrine causes people to become scared of their own shadow, living in fear of making mistakes that might be seen as something negative or sinful.

As many of us here, I am trying to find a balance for my life now. However, for the past eight years I have been living without faith. I have done nothing but complain and gripe. And where did it get me? NOWHERE!!! It landed me in depression, grief, isolation, withdrawal from society, and doing painkillers to self-medicate. Now I have finally found a way to break this horrible, self-defeating pattern, and it seems to be working. Regardless of what anyone says, complaining has not helped me one bit - it has only hurt me and brought me down. So, I plan to try to stop complaining and instead focus on what my goals are. If I have a plan that consists of what I want out of life, I can move forward. If all I do is gripe about what my past did to me, I will stay stuck in the past - which is where I have been for eight years now.

:cool:

[Carmen]

Full speed ahead! :) I know what you mean. I do complain too, which does relieve steam somewhat, but I get better results when I concentrate on something else...on recovery, living out something else.

[Voyager]

For me, faith & trust go hand in hand. My faith & trust are low, low, low. Attending meetings is just a start, just a start. I'm just beginning to reach out to those at the ACOA group. Eighteen months and I'm just beginning to reach out and talk w/ a few people. It had its start in just attending one meeting.
Glad to hear that you are getting involved in something SueJean. I have heard that ACOA groups are really helpful. I think staying in touch with society is a big key to our recovery. Unfortunately, due to my difficulty in trusting people after being spiritually abused, I withdrew from society. All that did was make my life worse.

:cool:

[renee nelson]

Hi Voyager
I appreciate your idea for the center. Where I live we have a Boys and Girls Club. At the club seniors volunteer to do crafts and help kids w/ home work etc. They have pot lucks for families, sports, games amd much more. If you have one of these in your area you may benefit from visiting them. Years ago I opened a business and I am so glad I worked in that industry prior, because I learned so much from them. I know your idea is different from a boys and Girls Club but I still think you could gleen some wisdom from there program.
I wish you well:) .

[Willow]

Go for it Voyager.... I agree... a social club is light, fun, and gains the contact you need with other healthy families! Brilliant!

Glad to hear that you are getting involved in something SueJean. I have heard that ACOA groups are really helpful. I think staying in touch with society is a big key to our recovery. Unfortunately, due to my difficulty in trusting people after being spiritually abused, I withdrew from society. All that did was make my life worse.

:cool:

[Voyager]

We make choices in our lives but ultimately God is sovereign, surely? It's not down to energy!

The other concern I have with this line of thinking is that it is fairly harmless in our comfortable Western bubbles but take it to a developing country where people are dying of illness, poverty and starvation then it becomes a slap in the face...

No amount of positive thinking can mend the brokenness in your life or mine. Only God can.

I wasn't able to read your entire post this morning when I first saw it because it nauseated me, but after going back through it I feel the need to address it. How dare you attack me on this public forum in the manner that you did??? I have no interest in having you or anyone else try to beat me with the Bible and tell me that my beliefs are wrong or that my motives are corrupt. That is not what I am here for. If you do not like what I have to say, then ignore it.

People here are hurting, and when we share our hurts and wounds on this forum, the last thing we need is a condemning sermon or a Bible-beating attack. This is not the place for that. I have not slapped anyone in the face, nor have I promoted the starvation of people who are dying of illness, poverty, and starvation. I simply shared my dilemma and what I have done to find a solution for it. I did not ask for a shaming sermon. If I wanted one of those, I would return to my former abusive church. This is the very reason why I don't return to a church - because I don't need any more religious shaming and humilation.

You'll find that although we may leave abusive religion, it takes a lot longer for it to leave us.

:mad:

[Voyager]

Go for it Voyager.... I agree... a social club is light, fun, and gains the contact you need with other healthy families! Brilliant!
Thanks Amy!!!

:)

[Jo Jo]

Voyager wrote:
The DVD that we watched talked about the impact of our thoughts and our words. It had at least eight different speakers on it that have all become highly successful entrepreneurs, consultants, authors, etc. They all believe in same the "secret" that they attribute to being the catalyst of their successes. What this “secret” basically boils down to is this: Think and talk about the things you need and want, and what your goals are in life INSTEAD of complaining about what you don't have. They say that complaining about what you don't have causes you to spend all your energy on negativity instead of using your energy to focus on and attain your goals. The result of complaining produces negative energy, and the result of thinking and talking about what you want out of life produces positive energy. Whichever type of energy you produce will affect your surroundings and determine your fate in life.

I'm glad this is helping you Voyager... Sometimes the complaints and heaviness of life weighs us down and we need another perspective. But the positive thinking terminology in this really triggered me too... maybe others who have been 'slapped and beat' with the positive thinking doctrine would feel that way, too.

[clementine]

Voyager,
I'm so sorry!
My intention was not to shame you or humiliate or question your faith or your motives.
My intention was to help not harm you.
The line of thinking you described really pushed my buttons. I'm off the soapbox now.
Please forgive me.

You'll find that although we may leave abusive religion, it takes a lot longer for it to leave us.
Ouch! Again, I'm sorry.

Clementine

PS I am sorry if I have offended anyone else as well. Please forgive me. I think I have made some wrong assumptions about this forum.

[Voyager]

I'll just have to be careful what I share here anymore. It seems that whenever I post something that falls outside of the traditional manmade doctrines that we were all taught in our abusive churches, someone makes sure to try to set me straight.

You see, I don't believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, but many here do. This is what gets me into debates here. I'm not trying to get anyone here to deconvert from their beliefs, I just feel like it should be fair if I share mine without getting reprimanded.

It's probably best that I just check out of here. I'm not doing this to have a pity party, but I just get too triggered when someone tries to rebuke me for my belief system. I have absolutely no need for that.

Arrrggghhhh!

:mad:

[Voyager]

Is being successful what being a follower of Jesus is all about? Is being God's child all about achieving life goals? I'd have to differ here. The Jesus I read about is not really concerned about how successful we are or how many life goals we achieve.
Did I say I was a "follower of jesus"? Did I ask you for your opinion on what Jesus cares about regarding my goals? NO! Again, look at what you wrote. That is the very shaming religious bull*** that I escaped from.

You may not have been trying to hurt me, but the tone of your post came across as very condemning and condescending. You used Bible verses to tell me that my beliefs are wrong.

Are you ready to obey the Bible? Well then, in Leviticus it commands believers to kill gays... are you ready to obey that? How about the verse in Corinthians where it commands women to keep their mouths shut in church? Are you ready to obey that? If not, then don't tell me which parts of the Bible I need to start obeying!!!

:mad:

[Voyager]

Adios. This place gets my blood boiling. I'm outa here.

[Carmen]

PS I am sorry if I have offended anyone else as well. Please forgive me. I think I have made some wrong assumptions about this forum.

Hi Clementine, :)

I have made the same mistake sometimes too, I can get preachy, or teachy. The best thing is to express your beliefs not as the "right thing" or "the bible sez", but as your opinions. Then it is easier for others to just let them lie, or ignore them if they don't agree. Good teaching is part of recovery in my opinion, but some have been so hurt by bad teaching, that they don't like to be reminded of it, even when the teaching may be good. Also, I am not always sure if I am on the right track that what I write might be of any value, might be, might not be. Also, we know that some beliefs are more controversial than others and it might be better not to address them at all.

I have experience on another forum with a lot of people more liberal than I am and people with radically different world views, but we usually get along well. After a while you get a feel for which way the wind is blowing and can express yourself without others taking offense. Your posts did not sound attacking to me (although perhaps too firm), but some people here are more sensitive than I am.

We can post openly here, about less controversial beliefs (better none at all really if they don't directly apply to recovery), but it comes down to how they are expressed: "I think, in my opinion, it seems, perhaps, may, it could be, might..." I know that such language can seem wishy-washy, but it is non-offensive.

There are other places on the net where one can be more firm in one's expressions, I have my own site for that.

Even though some here are well into recovery, that doesn't mean that they are not still sensitive.

You are not the first to "step in it" and you won't be the last either. It all depends on how we express ourselves and how others interpret that. Sometimes one or the other or both get mixed up. Don't stop posting. Take a look at the rules again and continue. :)

[Reg]

Sorry John,

This is the thread I should have posted this.........

John,

This was a very important post to me. It gave me a similar idea of starting a support group in my area. It may not happen for awhile. I have to wind down my business so that I won't be encumbered. I have to focus. I have already discussed this with one of my very good friends here. He is onboard for the idea.

If you didn't post this I would not have come up with the idea.

I will keep you posted when it happens. I think that something really good is going to come from this.

Thanks again for this idea.

Go for it man! :p

[beginagainrose]

Well, I finally understand what the hoopla has been about. I was reading the wrong thread altogether... correct me if I am wrong, but isnt "doctrine" as a subject matter on the lists of "don'ts" by admin? This certainly must be why. NOT speaking to this speicifically, but generally.:(