How Did This All Happen?

[DiligentLily]

I haven't been through the older threads enough to know whether this has been covered, but I am wondering if you all have talked much about how this phenomenon happened. this abuse. when I went through it, it took a lot of convincing to get me to realize it really was abuse, and it followed a well-worn pattern.

But two days on this forum was enough for me to see it is a real, patterned syndrome that has repeated itself all over Christendom. But THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN HERE, in the Lord's church! Look Who we belong to and what He's done for us!

I am heartbroken and angry at what a horrible name these abusers are giving to this family. I can't even keep count of all the people I know who have been turned away from God by this wretched behavior.

It's just--does anyone know how we got here?

[Anna Marta]

Diligentlily,

I don't know "how" all this happened, but I do know that Jesus himself told us that it would happen! The wolves Jesus warned us about were already inside the sheep fold. We tend to forget that... He warned us about false shepherds. In Ezekiel 34 God describes bad shepherds (what they do and the effect on the sheep) and tells us HE HIMSELF will be the shepherd of his people. And instead we have turned to a pastor - a man.

IMHO we have made the same mistake as the Israelites did when they demanded a king like all the other people at that time. They wanted a human to rule them, a human to look up to and to tell them what to do and to make decisions for them... Isn't that what we allow and even encourage pastors to do? When you read up on church history it is sickening to see the development of how the "church and clergy offices" came into power.

The "job" of a pastor, as I read the bible, is not described. Pastor is not given any more credence than evangelist, teacher, prophet etc.

I am in the process right now of rethinking my previous paradigms when it comes to the church and the Christian life. I have always said I love the church and believe in it, but I think that what I love and believe in is the family of Christ and his body as it reflects his love when we love and care for each other. I KNOW there are churches who function well and I thank God for them and their ministry.

We are all on a journey and I am discovering the Body of Christ alive and in action here on this web site - as well as others and in other groups of people who are struggling to be authentic and loving in their relationship and walk with God.

I hope our experiences with hurt and pain will spur us on TO DO SOMETHING new to help others and try to create safer and more loving groups.

Anna Marta

[Jerry]

Dear Lily,,,,
I liked Anna's post very much :D For my 2 cents I would say ,,,,,Before Christs return Paul states there will be a "Falling Away"....Gee I wonder :D :D
Love Jerry

[Jo Jo]

This is a great question Dilegentlilly,

Yes, Anna Marta really got the basics internal structure of these systems I think. For me I really liked feeling like I had a place to belong so that made me susceptible I believe. I think there are things in our lives that make us susceptible to these systems. There were so many smaller dynamics in my life at that time too, but this is how my travel through the cult happened:

We all really thought we were looking at God at the time. That is what we had in common - that was our fire. We stood together facing God. But then when the promises that the leader made to us started to fall apart... we started to turn and face him more and more to figure out what was going wrong, to try to bolster him up. It started to be more about him than God. He started to feel bad that 'his' church wasn't working out, or maybe it was too much work for him... I have no idea what was going on in his mind. Because his eyes went off of God, our eyes went off of God and on to him. Then we were all focused on man, but he talked us into believing this was new revelations from God. He felt pumped up, he was getting money, he had rearranged things where he didn't have to work very hard. He settled down and we talked ourselves into believing this was still about God. And that's how it happened for my group and that's how it's still going.

Then when someone... me in this case... went, hey this is wrong - this is not God. They accused me about being all about me and betraying them and God. I've heard it called here 'the emperor has no clothes' syndrome. And that's how I got here. Which is better than being there, but it's all major hurtful.

[Carmen]

I think it has a lot to do with professing Christians not behaving loving and merciful. Whether these are real Christians or not at heart I cannot say, but they can't imitate the character traits of the Holy Spirit very well or even follow the monkey-see, monkey-do principle concerning Christlike actions.

Somehow I think that selfishness is inherent in (fallen) human nature, and those people are just being selfish in a church environment - to the damage of us all.

Also, I think that at least some of us were predispositioned, trained in one way or the other to accept abuse, either in our childhoods or by indoctrination in some abusive group or both for those that got the double whammy. There are special groups for those that have grown up in a cultic environment, whose parents and/or families were or still are involved.

[hoipoloi]

Good question -- but I have no answer.

I'm on the edge of believing that Christianity is merely a thing of this World -- and nothing else besides.

And yet you have to abandon all hope to enter there.

And so I hang on with my teeth to the Faith.

But for how long?

I'm sorry -- I should be giving you encouragement: take no notice and listen to the others.

[InTheory]

This "phenomenon" happens in all religions-Christianity is no exception. I think the very hierarchical nature of "the beast" (church as we know it) almost becomes a cauldron of abuse.
I think this happens because of the kind of people that attain power in religion as well.
I don't necessarily think it's because of a "falling away" either-I think that, because we have become a society that places much higher value on the individual than in ages past (a generalization, but I think it holds true in the west), we have a much lower tolerance for these kinds of control and manipulation that we have all experienced-and rightly so-we now recognize that many things held as common belief in times past (the inequalities of race, gender, etc.) are abhorrent, and our sensibilities will not abide them.

Anyway, this is from someone who pretty much eschews all organized religion at this point...so take it with a grain of salt!! :cool:

[ex-shep]

Good question -- but I have no answer.

I'm on the edge of believing that Christianity is merely a thing of this World -- and nothing else besides.

And yet you have to abandon all hope to enter there.

And so I hang on with my teeth to the Faith.

But for how long?

I'm sorry -- I should be giving you encouragement: take no notice and listen to the others.

Hey, you are where you are. Don't sweat it. I felt very much the same way for years. There is a saying "once burned twice shy". Of course not all christians are abusive and there healthy churhes out there. Fresh out of a bad experience, there is an understandable tendency to yell, "Oh yeah, say who!!". My faith was smashed to pieces when lost my friend Tammy to a destructive group, realized what I was in, and then I left. The first six months I had to grab onto any shread of faith I could get my hands on. I had to keep repeating to myself, it will get better. Eventually it did, but it sure did not feel like at the time.

[ex-shep]

I haven't been through the older threads enough to know whether this has been covered, but I am wondering if you all have talked much about how this phenomenon happened. this abuse. when I went through it, it took a lot of convincing to get me to realize it really was abuse, and it followed a well-worn pattern.

But two days on this forum was enough for me to see it is a real, patterned syndrome that has repeated itself all over Christendom. But THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN HERE, in the Lord's church! Look Who we belong to and what He's done for us!

I am heartbroken and angry at what a horrible name these abusers are giving to this family. I can't even keep count of all the people I know who have been turned away from God by this wretched behavior.

It's just--does anyone know how we got here?

Great question with no easy answers. The short version is some because of abusive family of origins is attracted to the same old same old abusive patterns. Others just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such groups have hidden agendas. So one does not know until much later.

My loss of my friend Tammy and the realization that two thirds of the campus fellowships were caught up in some form of shepherding and abusive was a shock to my system. I counseled a woman who left a heavy discipleship group. She want to tear her group leaders limb by limb.

There is a non scientific school of thought that fifty percent of those involved in an abusive church want nothing to do with anything Christian. The other fifty can usually get some perspective and integrate their experiences with a healthier walk with the Lord. I cannot remember the citation for the life of me. It makes sense.

[DiligentLily]

I'm on the edge of believing that Christianity is merely a thing of this World -- and nothing else besides.

And yet you have to abandon all hope to enter there.

And so I hang on with my teeth to the Faith.

But for how long?



((((hoi))))!!!!

Hoi, it feels very bleak to you, I can see:( :( :( , but you may in truth be very close to something wonderful. St. John of the Cross calls the place you are near "The dark night of the soul." It is, I am told, when you lose faith in the things of this world, when everything you thought was good (but really isn't) is taken away. What's left then is not nothingness or emptiness--it is God as He really is, with no lies or additions or changes. I will pray heartily that you will find this blessing in your pain. I would never want to go through what you are feeling in order to get that blessing, but I have heard about it from people who have been there, and they tell me it is soooo good.

take no notice and listen to the others.


I take a great deal of notice, as should we all. Take heart that King David seemed to feel such emptiness and confusion, too, and he was a king 'after God's own heart.' So sad, hoi, but I really believe God knows very very well what you're feeling and loves you more than you know. He won't let you fall. I'll be praying....

[DiligentLily]

I think the very hierarchical nature of "the beast" (church as we know it) almost becomes a cauldron of abuse.

Anyway, this is from someone who pretty much eschews all organized religion at this point...so take it with a grain of salt!! :cool:

Do you really think so? I don't know...my personal experience is pretty limited, of course, but I was abused in a 'low' church setting (not much hierarchy), and I am getting healing in a 'high' church setting (plenty of hierarchy.) But you may be right.... It could just be that in my abusive church, an unhealthy man got power too young and it went to his head (his head is still on crooked, too!! :p ), and in my healthy church, a good guy, who messed up plenty in his youth and learned humility, is at the helm.

[hoipoloi]

:)

Many thanks for all the support -- lots for me to think about.

Like DiligentLily, I still find it difficult to understand how SA can occur, not only in God's world but within God's people.

But none of us are perfect, least of all me, so perhaps I should focus less on myself and more on God and other people.

But I still get very angry.

:confused:

[InTheory]

Do you really think so? I don't know...my personal experience is pretty limited, of course, but I was abused in a 'low' church setting (not much hierarchy), and I am getting healing in a 'high' church setting (plenty of hierarchy.) But you may be right.... It could just be that in my abusive church, an unhealthy man got power too young and it went to his head (his head is still on crooked, too!! :p ), and in my healthy church, a good guy, who messed up plenty in his youth and learned humility, is at the helm.

Sorry-I didn't mean "high" church settings, but rather the hierarchy mindset in relation to authority-my SA happened in a small Pentecostal church (Pentecostal churches are RARELY thought of as "high" church :D :cool: ).
I think that the power that churches presume to have over people is the breeding ground of much of the SA that occurs today.
My opinon!

-Dan

[DiligentLily]

Sorry-I didn't mean "high" church settings, but rather the hierarchy mindset in relation to authority-my SA happened in a small Pentecostal church (Pentecostal churches are RARELY thought of as "high" church :D :cool: ).
I think that the power that churches presume to have over people is the breeding ground of much of the SA that occurs today.
My opinon!

-Dan

Ah, I see. Yes, I have thought the same thing. The more power is given to one man, the more tempted he will be to abuse it and the more able he will be to abuse it--no-one to answer to but himself. Also, the more appealing that position will be to potential abusers, so they work hard to get it. If you get to a position by the power of your personality, rather than by gaining credentials at a difficult seminary and through a rigorous ordination process, that's a recipe for trouble.

[Jerry]

If you get to a position by the power of your personality, rather than by gaining credentials at a difficult seminary and through a rigorous ordination process, that's a recipe for trouble.

I have been SCREAMING that from the housetops for years !!!!!! :D

Hahaha Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Ah, I see. Yes, I have thought the same thing. The more power is given to one man, the more tempted he will be to abuse it and the more able he will be to abuse it--no-one to answer to but himself. Also, the more appealing that position will be to potential abusers, so they work hard to get it. If you get to a position by the power of your personality, rather than by gaining credentials at a difficult seminary and through a rigorous ordination process, that's a recipe for trouble.

I think that even the ordination process as we know it may not be optimal.

Somewhere I mentioned that pastors that rely on the payment and retirement from their denominations are highly at risk as control objects. Some could be manipulated into playing along with changes that they don't agree with in the denomination. They would not receive unemployment from the government if they get kicked out or leave of their own free will. How many of them really know how to do other work? Paul was a tent-maker and could fall back on that when he had to. He urged that servants of the church be picked by others of the community based on their character - but these people likely already knew a trade - someone too young to know one would not be selected, since he could not have any experience of life or wisdom yet. It is true that some were trained for service as the apostles were, but no one at that time was only trained for service without having already had other training. I think that too many just go to seminary when young and have no other life experience or training.

How many people really have good character that come out of the process? Are oratory skills and doctrinal fluency more important than character? Would a humble person want to go to seminary to become a "leader"?

How many could support themselves by other means if they would not continue work as pastors?

What many today consider to be "credentials" just doesn't appeal to me. Just my thoughts.

[Jerry]

Dear Carmen,,,
You make a valid point.....;) The other side of the coin is the "Gas Station Attendant" who's only credential is "The Anointing" .....I see both sides of the coin are tarnished :(

Love Jerry

[Carmen]

I agree, Jerry. I have been in the opposite situation too, where only "the anointing" was important. But also there, important elements of character were missing, because too much emphasis was laid on prophecy, getting instruction from the Holy Spirit, etc. No one bothered to check the spiritually received enlightenment with scripture either - so we were all following people that could just invent anything they wanted and call it "from God". False humility, impatience and disdain for the spiritually "unreceptive" and promotion of idiocy in general were rampant. That was a dead end too.

[Anna Marta]

Yikes! I love this discussion. :D I agree with everyone.

Carmen you turned me onto a book I just finished reading "The Sociopath Next Door." This has kind of been like the cherry on top of all the reading I've been doing on personality disorders. I am pretty much convinced that these power hungry pastors come in 2 flavors - narrissistic and sociopathic tendencies. They are kind of like opposite sides of the same coin.

It is definitely "buyer beware" out there in the church shopping world.

My biggest problem has been ME! Surprise! I like to believe people and I want very much to think the best of them. I also find it incredibly difficult to defy an authority figure - face to face . Pollyanna alas, must die...:( Cause she's been killing me!

When it came to my professional life in the field of adult health education, I had no problem walking out of lecture or conference if I thought the speaker was full of it and wasting my time. I just packed up my briefcase and walked out the door, in GOOD conscience! It was easier for me to see through a health care professional, I guess I expected a certain proportion of them to be manure soaked.

However, these adept clergy types who are clever speakers, charming, idealistic sounding, creative visionaries with their high sounding ideas - are snakey... their looks, voice, charm, smile, charm slink in through the back door of a defensive shield and BANG!

What gives me some consolation is that even the cleverest of psych docs are taken in by these personality fakes, at first. I am finally accumulating information on what to look for... And it is human nature and group nature to not want to see that their leader is a fake... easier to shoot a few sheep than have to go find a new sheperd. Shepherd and new flock hunting is a lot work.

Anna Marta

[Carmen]

I read that book too, it was an eye-opener. I'll have to give it a second reading, there was a lot of good material there about controllers with no conscience.

Controlling People by Patricia Evans is the latest one I have found that has shed light on my home situation too. I am being controlled by someone who I am convinced has a conscience, but doesn't see me as a real person with real feelings and thoughts.

The author explains a phenomenon where some are "under a spell". The don't intend to control others, but do. They create an external version of themselves, much like a child does with his teddy bear. The teddy bear always says hi and bye, always agrees, always thinks what the child wants, never does or says anything out of character, is an extension of the child.

The problem is that the extension of the controller is into a real person and not a stuffed animal. As long as the controlled person is behaving as he should, there is no conflict and the situation is hidden. The controller doesn't really see the real person in the other, he only sees the pretend person he has created. The controller doesn't consciously know that they are doing this. They are completely blind to the situation. These people have consciences, and can act very conscienciously toward persons that they have not projected themselves into.

One situation would be a husband that treats all others normally and nicely, including his wife and family if they are in public, but becomes the controller when they are at home with no others present. No one knows about the control and wouldn't believe it, because the controller never or only rarely lets others see the pattern of control over his family.

The controlling behavior is not always present at the beginning of a relationship. It may be triggered years later by an event, the controlled person getting a job, losing a job, having children...or some other life-changing event. The controlling personality kicks in and the witness has no clue what caused it. The first sign of trouble is when they break the spell by doing - or being - something unexpected.

If the controlled person, also called a witness, behaves in an inappropriate way (called spellbreaking), the controller, also called the pretender, tries to increase control - make the witness comply and get back into line - under control. The range of control can be verbal, or also include violence, even murder to keep the controlled person from leaving the influence of the controller. The author says that this is the kind of control that some battered wives are under. As other examples she lists cults, hate groups, gangs, regimes, even whole countries where individuals are forced to conform to another's image of themselves like women under the Taliban - in the name of God, a god (in this case Allah) and/or tradition.

If the family is in a controlling church situation, and the controller is the husband, the church may even support him in controlling his wife. A number of places in the book reminded me of Leslie. The newbies here won't remember her, but if you go back to the posts, you can see that what she described sounds a lot like her husband is a controller and that the church and even biblical counselor (who should have known better) supported his control over her life. No one suspected he was a controller. I think it likely that he does not even know his wife - but only sees the illusion he has created of her. Since no one else knows this, they would not even suspect what is going on. Her individuality and search for help outside the church were labeled as rebelliousness and in the end her "loving" husband even capped their internet connection so she could not participate in this forum anymore.

A pastor could also be a controller toward only a few church members or only toward "his" church. When other pastors visit he may not show the control. This is not necessarily slyness, they may be unconscious of their change in personality when only with the controlled group or in the presence of "outsiders".

Some eventually can realize that they have been controlling others, can even feel remorse, sorrow, the works - but that is no guarantee for recovery, Evans wrote. Many are still clueless how to stop controlling. In these cases the controllers are not sociopaths, they have consciences, can be genuinely sorry for what they have done, but just don't know how to stop controlling.

I think that there must be some sociopaths, people without consciences that can be crafty when imitating those with consciences, that are in control of churches. But what the author calls "The Teddy Illusion" is likely responsible for some damage in other churches or individuals in churches that are being controlled.

The sociopaths, narcissists and the controllers described by Patricia Evans all have something in common though, I think. They are all selfish.