The Megachurch Formula?

[Voyager]

I was just reading an article from the Illinois Times online that talked about a megachurch down in Saint Louis. Here's a clip from it:

West of St. Louis, in a moat of malls, farmland, and faux-gentry subdivisions, the St. Louis Family Church is holding its 7 a.m. Sunday service, the first of four. It's barely sunup, yet there are more people in these cushy movie-theater chairs than most traditional churches see in their pews at their main services. The music is recording-studio quality, and when Pastor Jeff Perry, as though on impulse, invites someone to read from the Bible, the passage is instantly projected in big white letters on the wall.

He's following the megachurch formula, anchoring his down-to-earth preaching in the Bible's most hopeful passages and avoiding shame or hellfire. Thousands come to listen, excited by global missions and social outreach and eager for the 24/7 programming that addresses their personal problems, giving them firm rules and Biblical certainty without ever, ever judging them.
I wish there was a church around here like that. It sounds like a great idea. Saint Louis is 100 miles from here, so it's a little too far to drive to church. It's too bad more churches haven't caught onto this idea. The philosophy of using hell and judgement to scare people into compliance just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I run from it. People don't need that kind of stuff to live for God. Just knowing that He forgives our sins and loves us should be enough to keep our hearts in the right place. If not, fear tactics will only make people look good outwardly. When they go home they will do what they want to anyway.

:cool:

[Florence]

AMEN!!!!!

That's exactly what the "Grace Land" book said. Alot of "religious" folks think that if you believe that once you become a Christian, if you believe that no matter what you do or don't do, you are still in "Grace Land," it will only encourage folks to sin more. The author's rebuttal is that "The relationship we have with Jesus Christ is the impetus for a godly lifestyle." He goes on to say, "Don't believe that your failures can bankrupt God's grace. . . A legalist is afraid of this kind of excessive grace because he has never experienced the freedom to know what sins he might commit if given the chance." !!!!!!!! :eek:

My church appears to have this down - in public. Go there, and I'll guarantee the pastor will preach grace and speak words of comfort. One service and you will feel like he has touched your soul with God's unconditional love. But, point out a problem and suddenly you will find yourself in a hell hole you are never allowed to climb out of. Oh, it will never be spoken of publicly - from the pulpit (because grace is what brings people in) but you will experience the classic signs of abuse if you try to get involved in anything or use your gifts in any way. Every door you approach will slam shut in your face. It's what goes on behind the scenes that is so abusive - that's where people are told they have to measure up, aren't good enough, need to keep quiet about their concerns, are shunned, etc.

That's why I am so cautious when I see that someone has, after one or two Sundays, determined that they have found a great church. I hope they are keeping their eyes wide open.

Florence

[diva]

Oh, it will never be spoken of publicly - from the pulpit (because grace is what brings people in) but you will experience the classic signs of abuse if you try to get involved in anything or use your gifts in any way. Every door you approach will slam shut in your face. It's what goes on behind the scenes that is so abusive - that's where people are told they have to measure up, aren't good enough, need to keep quiet about their concerns, are shunned, etc.

That's why I am so cautious when I see that someone has, after one or two Sundays, determined that they have found a great church. I hope they are keeping their eyes wide open.

Florence

Florence -- I think you'd like The Ragamuffin Gospel. I know, you've probably already read it -- I'm only ten years behind everyone else!
That aside, I think it's important to hold inside us a realization of God's unending love and grace. Then it doesn't so much matter what those around us think or say because we know we have God's grace and we know that they're just forgetting it for the moment. (That's not easy although it sounded so easy when I typed it)
I spend a lot of time with "Judge not lest ye be judged" as my mantra. I think that judging thing turns into a downward spiral really fast.
I guess what I'm saying is you're going to find humans acting humanly in any church. What is important is to find a church where you don't get sucked into another abusive situation.

[Florence]

Yes, you are right - "humans act humanly in any church." Thank God for that! It's important to realize, though, that those abusive practices of which I relate are not simply "human" - they go far beyond a simple "forgetting it (grace) for the moment." - Were that true, I doubt that I would be concerned at all with the treatment I have received.

I think I can safely say I know the stuff church leadership has to put up with from the occasional disgruntled or broken person who is focusing their pain on the church and it's leadership. It's not like I've found abuses behind every rock or in every look or sigh. I work in a church - quite successfully - to the point that I usually get 1-2 job offers from other churches in the course of each year.

What I do see in my "home" church is a pattern of dealing with many people in ways that could have been case studies for the books on spiritual abuse. It has taken me 8 years to really recognize it for what it is - even though I can now say my personal experience began over 6 years ago. I recognize it now not only because of how I have been treated, but because I have, in the past several months, become aware of the treatment others have and are experiencing.

I always find it interesting when people toss out "Judge not lest ye be judged." That's a tremendously judgemental statement, don't you think? In my bible Jesus says that we are to "Beware of false prophets." Sounds like we'd better be doing some judging in certain situations.

Florence

[diva]

What I do see in my "home" church is a pattern of dealing with many people in ways that could have been case studies for the books on spiritual abuse. It has taken me 8 years to really recognize it for what it is - even though I can now say my personal experience began over 6 years ago. I recognize it now not only because of how I have been treated, but because I have, in the past several months, become aware of the treatment others have and are experiencing.

I always find it interesting when people toss out "Judge not lest ye be judged." That's a tremendously judgemental statement, don't you think? In my bible Jesus says that we are to "Beware of false prophets." Sounds like we'd better be doing some judging in certain situations.

Florence
I'd love to talk with you about the patterns you see in your "home" church. I, too, gained awareness of the syndrome because of the treatment of others. My way of dealing with this seems to be to try to write so that others may have an easier time of it.
I think I might have been unclear in my use of the "judge not..." phrase. I meant to say that I find I must apply it to myself. I, of course, am perfect ;) and I can be quite frustrated when those around me are not so perfect as I am :eek: If I try not to judge, I find it easier to ignore others judgements. I will, however, throw that out the window when what I see is abusive to myself or others. Then I will do whatever I can to end the abusive behavior.
What I was saying about human error goes to the heart of forgiveness. Bad as the behavior is (I'm fairly liberal in my interpretation), I believe that it is a function of our humaness (maybe translate brokenness?) and is not beyond God's grace. This just isn't coming out the way it want it to, so I'll stop for now and try to do better another time.

[Willow]

I wasn't able to capture the quote from the original post... but the trigger word is "programming". I'm all out of programming. Not wanting programming anymore...

[Reg]

AMEN!!!!!

That's exactly what the "Grace Land" book said. A lot of "religious" folks think that if you believe that once you become a Christian, if you believe that no matter what you do or don't do, you are still in "Grace Land," it will only encourage folks to sin more. The author's rebuttal is that "The relationship we have with Jesus Christ is the impetus for a godly lifestyle." He goes on to say, "Don't believe that your failures can bankrupt God's grace. . . A legalist is afraid of this kind of excessive grace because he has never experienced the freedom to know what sins he might commit if given the chance." !!!!!!!! :eek:


Hi Florence,

That's what a lot of people thought in the church I left. They didn't understand God's Grace. They looked at it from a purely human standpoint. God's grace doesn't work like that. When we realize we are forgiven by God, we respond with gratitude if we have God's Spirit. We will respond that way as a natural consequence. We just don't want to sin again. His Spirit prompts us to feel this way.

Philp 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and do for His good pleasure.

I'll post a separate post on The Ministry of the Spirit that helps explain that more.

God's Spirit does not overpower us - it Empowers us.

[ex-shep]

I wish there was a church around here like that. It sounds like a great idea.


There is a sermon from the church archives on that very topic. I sometimes listen to the archives. The speaker for that morning makes references that the motivation for serving the Lord should be out of love and a desire.

The topic came up in passing when the senior pastor was giving a talk in our sunday school class, "There is not much motivation when you told believe or go to hell" It came leave a bad taste in one's mouth. Sadly I have been on both the receiving and sending end. It was not nice.

The threats of hell have certainly been used in my groups and in Tammy's It got to the point for both of us if that we even heard even a moderate view that Satan was going to swallow us whole. There are the extremes of saying there is no hell to being paranoid that the devil is under every rock similar to the plight of the villain in Northwest Hounded Police. That balance can be tricky

For me it was the love of a college coed and her country church in Southeast Ohio which did it for me.

In case you are interested in the sermon where reference to love being a motivating force in salvation

http://www.webcasting.com/fumc/service.htm

click link for for August 08, 2004. As always take what you like and leave the rest.

[ex-shep]

I wasn't able to capture the quote from the original post... but the trigger word is "programming". I'm all out of programming. Not wanting programming anymore...


I understand, I will open the door for you so don't leave a gaping silhouette in the forum walls :D