What does forgiveness look like?

[Anna Marta]

Just had to throw this out. Thought that maybe this is xomething a lot of us have struggled with.

I have some questions about forgiveness I'd like some in-put on. :rolleyes:

1. What was the process like for you?
2. Was forgiveness a decision or a feeling?
3. If a decision, how long did it take for feelings to catch up with the decision?
4. What have you learned?

Anna Marta

[Jerry]

Just had to throw this out. Thought that maybe this is xomething a lot of us have struggled with.

I have some questions about forgiveness I'd like some in-put on. :rolleyes:

1. What was the process like for you?
2. Was forgiveness a decision or a feeling?
3. If a decision, how long did it take for feelings to catch up with the decision?
4. What have you learned?

Anna Marta

Dear Anna,,,,
It would seem that the abusive churches bluer the difference between "Forgiveness" and "Reconciliation"........They do this because what the abusers have done is nearly unforgivable,,,,,,,so they also require Reconciliation to maintain control......................For me,,,,Forgiveness is a decision,,,,,why?????? Because my "Savior" whom I admire,,,,,said,,,,"Jerry,,,,,you should forgive",,,,,,,,,,,,so I forgive ;) He never said that I have to "Feel" it ;) ,,,,,,He never said I have to reconcile with the "SOB" He just said to forgive him ;)
Love Jerry

[mary]

Dear Anna,,,,
It would seem that the abusive churches bluer the difference between "Forgiveness" and "Reconciliation"........They do this because what the abusers have done is nearly unforgivable,,,,,,,so they also require Reconciliation to maintain control......................For me,,,,Forgiveness is a decision,,,,,why?????? Because my "Savior" whom I admire,,,,,said,,,,"Jerry,,,,,you should forgive",,,,,,,,,,,,so I forgive ;) He never said that I have to "Feel" it ;) ,,,,,,He never said I have to reconcile with the "SOB" He just said to forgive him ;)
Love Jerry

It's hard to forgive when the abuser believes that he or she has done everything right and that forgiveness need not be asked for. And you can't reconcile the irreconcilable, can you? (E.g., it's not possible for those of us whose former pastors believe they acted properly when they slandered, libelled or sexually harassed us or whatever to become "reconciled" to them.)

That said, though, remember Corrie ten Boom's "The Hiding Place?" After she, her father and her sister Betsie were put in concentration camps for hiding Jews in their Dutch home during WWII (her father and Betsie both died in the camps), later in life, after escaping, Corrie went on numerous speaking tours. At one such speaking engagement about 20 years after the war, a man came up to Corrie and said that he'd been one of the guards at one of the camps she and Betsie were at. Corrie stared at his face and then began to recognize him as one of the SS guards who had beaten her and Betsie unmercifully. With tears in his eyes, he asked for her forgiveness; he begged for it. Corrie just stared at him. She thought, with every fiber of her being, NO; I can't do it. Then she felt the prompting of the Holy Spirit telling her to "take his hand." At the moment that she obeyed that prompting, she wrote, she felt a surge of what was almost as powerful as a bolt of electricity; she felt warmth and forgiveness flowing out not from her, but through her to this man as God forgave him for her. The Lord blessed Corrie by the forgiveness that He gave her for this man. It was not something she wanted to do, but it was something that God wanted to do for her and through her - and for some reason, He wanted to bless that former SS guard, too.

The Lord forgave me, though, when I was not begging Him for forgiveness but rather, was running from Him as hard as I could. Anyone here ever read the poem, "The Hound of Heaven" by Francis Thompson? For some reason, my mother, who may have been a saved Catholic, gave me that poem when I was little and told me to read it and "get familiar with it." Eventually, long after my mother met her death partially - literally - at my father's hands, the narrator of that poem "became" me. I didn't ask for the Lord to forgive me; I merely came to the end of myself, had nowhere to go and had sort of a "Paul on the road to Damascus" experience. The Lord forgives the unforgiveable, and that was I. What I did to Him before - and I believe, sometimes even after He saved me - was far worse than what "pastor" and the whole rest of that congregation did to me. Can I forgive "pastor?" Yes, but I'm not quite there yet. I will have to forgive him for the furtherance of my own relationship with the One Who gave His life on the cross to purchase me. What will that be worth? It'll be priceless.

Have I forgiven my father for what he did to my mother? Not yet, but I'll have to forgive him, too, someday. He's been dead for three years and can't ask for forgiveness. He did similar things to me, but he obviously didn't kill me. He did kill part of my spirit and I can't get that back by myself. However, I know that the Lord will do for me what He did for Corrie ten Boom. All I can do now is pray for it and wait for the Lord to act. I will wait on my God, for I know and trust that He will come through.

I pray that this wonderful thread that you started, Anna Marta, will become a blessing to all who read it.

Grace and shalom shalom (perfect peace) to all,

mary

[SpinningHead]

Having dealt SOOOOO much with this forgiveness issue and reading book after book...

I've come to a few conclusions and I'll keep it brief: :rolleyes:

When forgiveness has only to do with you...it's mostly a decision that requires self discipline and then strong emotions will diminish over time.

Forgiveness is making the decision to move past this hurt and start "renewing my mind" so to speak...replacing the hurt with either passions, hobbies or new experience to help start chipping away at the hurt that had me so paralyzed and in a state of shock replacing it with positive memories and feelings.

When forgiviness has to do with someone else...I'd say emotions drives it b/c there's a lot of hurt involved that you want to go away. Decision making doesn't really step into the picture until the other person responds to your confronting the offense.

Forgiveness that involves another person (true forgiveness) absolutely requires them to participate in acknowledging their offense and being truly sorry. This doesn't always have to lead to reconcilliation...they may be sorry but you both or just one of you may not want to re-establish a friendship. Or maybe there wasn't a friendship to begin with...you can't reconcile what wasn't there.

Reconcilliation takes two people forgiving and both parties negotiatiating how to move past the offense and towards a place of trust again.

Forgiveness maybe instantaneous...or take years. Who's to say how long one has to process their feelings to get to a true place of forgiveness.

My thoughts...

anyone else?

[Anna Marta]

Thought I would share the biggest forgiveness event in my life. Hope it is an encouragment. Now I am NO Corrie ten Boom, but God required more of me than I felt was fair and just.

As a preface, lest anyone think I refer to Steinar; this marriage to my viking is a 2nd marriage.

My first husband was unfaithful. He had an affair (with my first cousin) that lasted for 5+ years. When I discovered it I nearly lost my mind. It also drastically impacted the extended family.

A former pastor who I loved and respected came to counsel us. I struggled with the issue of forgiveness, as you can well imagine. I forgave my husband, but her? - in a pig's ear was I about to do that!!! We reviewed all the scriptures and I was stubborn refusing to accept any of it . I simply could not even make myself decide to say the words, let alone mean them! Eventually I came to the point that for my own welfare (certainly not for hers) I would decide to tell God that I wanted to forgive her but could not do it in my own strength. That was it.

No magic anything happened. As a matter of a fact, I went through some serious PTSD over the next year or so. For months I did not go out alone anywhere. Finally when I did begin to function on my own, I ran out of food stores leaving carts piled high with groceries because she was somewhere in the store. My children were 7 and 9 then and have some memories of not understanding their mother's behaviors.

It was several years later at the funeral of my dad's (unmarried) twin brother that the miracle happened. This man had been my 2nd dad so I was greeting those coming to share condolences. When my cousin came in, I was warned she was there. The family gathered closely around as I decided to remain where I was next to the casket. When she came I saw a broken woman and I felt compassion for her. She tentatively reached out to hug me and I took her into my arms. She whispered something and all I could say was "I forgave you long ago." Later on she sought me out to ask how I could have done that because she could not. You see her husband had an affair later on and she would never forgive that *****! I told her the decision to forgive her was Jesus love for her coming through me and I really had nothing to do with it because I had frankly felt just like she did now - for a long time.

As a result of that happening, she found salvation. Several years ago we began meeting for lunch when I was in the states for Christmas. She just died of cancer in a long sad ordeal, but she died reconciled with me and knowing she is loved by God. I had the priviledge of praying for her while at home. On both ocassions my prayers were answered and she was given immediate relief of pain.

So my friends, this is only a small thing in comparison to what many of you have suffered. But it did not feel small at the time. It blew up my entire world and destroyed my innocence and faith in the love of my youth.

I did last another 11 years in the marriage after the happening, but when I saw the same behaviors and was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I knew I had to cut the tie and go. As a Christian, I cannot tell how how hard it was to walk away from a first marriage enduring the massive waves of judgment and anger coming at me from friends and church members - none of whom I have contact with now. I tried to defend myself to no avail, no one believed me. Then I realized that it was none of their business anyway!

For someone who hates not having closure it has been difficult to leave things behind. I thought I would never recover and indeed in many ways the devil rears his head and sticks me...

But God has given me a husband that is a man after his own heart. And after our struggles in marital and personal growth areas, I can say he is the man of my dreams. For 15 years I have laid my head on the pillow absolutely certain I am loved. The psychiatrist told us that the fact that I can trust and love to such a degree is a miracle. All I know is - this is my story of one experience of forgiveness. From it I learned enough and received enough from God that I will dare to follow Him again and again.

Love fra
Anna Marta

[Carmen]

Wow, Anna. You had a lot to forgive, and it was worth putting the forgiveness before yourself, because it resulted in someone else's salvation. That is loving your enemy at its best! Loving them to God. That is a concept that "Bold Love" by Allender/Longman introduced to me. There are a few twists that I did not expect in there too, strategies for doing so.

Forgiving the pastor that SA'd me was not easy. I did forgive by words rather quickly, but it took a while for the "feeling" of forgiveness to sink in. I still would like him to see how he wronged me and for him to want reconciliation. If I go to him now, I would be "submitting" to his authority in his eyes and the rest of the congregation. I plan to send a copy of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse to him. It just arrived in the mail, I'll pack it up next week and send it from another town. Mom told me to send it anonymously, she fears that if he knew it were from me, that he would try to hurt me in some way. I don't know about that, but her nose for people is pretty good sometimes. So I will provide him with the information he needs anonymously, since he has ignored the more than ample amount in scripture so far. That is the last thing I will actively do to reconcile the relationship, the rest will be up to him to open his eyes to what he has done or continue living in ignorance.

By reconciliation I don't mean that I will attend that church or accept that pastor's "authority", though I would insist on the pastor undoing the damage he preached against me after the incident. I want to be rehabilitated. That is not necessary for forgiveness, but for justice and in favor of the truth.

[jane]

Ana-

That is an awesome story. I am glad that you left when behaviors repeated themselves.

My opinion about forgiveness is almost exaclty what spinning head said.

I would add only one thing.

That there is a line that is crossed in the christian community. We were taught (even as children) "to forgive and forget".

Because of those teachings, we allow ourselves to be abused.

Ok...not We, I am talking about me but I do see so many christians, especially women, taking abuse in the name of "forgiving".

Forgiveness is NOT about allowing abuse to occur. PERIOD.


Forgiveness is a choice I make out of obedience to Christ. "Forgive, lest you be not forgiven..."


I doubt that I would stay with my husband for a second longer than I found out that he committed adultry.

Would I forgive him? Without a doubt...because Christ first loved me...and forgives me soooo much.

but I wouldn't stay.

And in regards to church.... our old church viewed UNFORGIVENESS as a greater sin than the horrible things people were doing to people...often leadership were hurting people....but the person who was UNFORGIVEN was a much greater sinner in their eyes...

so in my mind, forgiveness was another form of control over people in our church.

abusive.

just my opinion,

love,
jane

[Anna Marta]

Dear Carmen,
I hear you when you say "justice and in favor of the truth." Truth and justice are not things that abusers are the least concerned with.

A Norwegian pastor wrote a book he called them psychopaths - the overall term for a serious personality disorder here.

He wrote that these people have for the most part cooperated with evil to the point where it has become a part of their personality (flesh). He said that by the time most victims decide to do something the abuser already has set up the web of intrigue and has them completely out maneuvered. No one believes the victim because the abuser is such a wonderful person. And unless they experience a personal threat they simply can't believe the accusations. There is no support from others and the gossip and general hate campaign can make it impossible for the whistle-blower to survive.

They cannot hear us and will not change because of anything we say or do. This is evil and evil cannot be reasoned with or threatened. (You end up dancing with a demon)

His recommendations:
1. The victim needs to walk away cleanly and cut all contact without saying anything other than bare fact - "I quit!" - because anymore said or written will be used against you. (He has seen 1000's of long letters and emails twisted and used to give further hurt!)
2. The victim should turn the abuser over to God - forgive - and then STOP.
3. Do not pray for your abuser or the group. Once you give it to God the constant praying only brings up the pain and memories and will do no good. God is big enough to handle things on his own.

I find myself laying awake in the dark playing out scenarios in my head. Tell me I haven't lost all my marbles!:( :( I am not an agressive person, but wish I was sometimes. I think that at least agressors come away without wishing they'd said it! I'm so darn appropriate all the time - when I'd like to reach across the table and rip his head off! :mad: Whoa! A little hidden aggression there???

[Carmen]

Sometimes scenarios go through my head too. I wonder how I would react, or hopefully not react, if I see the pastor at the store somewhere. I try to piece together what I would say in defence to different questions. Some questions would not be worth answering if he would be projecting things into me, saying that I would be sinful or depraved or whatever. Only God can decide those things and that is how I would answer them. I think that thinking through such stuff can be healthy if we don't spend too much time on it.

I don't quite agree with number 3, at least not for everybody. It is hard to hate someone that you pray for, if you are strong enough to remember what they did to you. I think that is why we are supposed to pray for our enemies. At the beginning, shortly after the abuse it could be too much for some people, but over time after the worst is over I think that praying for the enemy could help recovery.

Could you give me the name of the Norwegian author and the name of his book and possibly where to find it? I could list it on my website. The more languages the merrier.

[beginagainrose]

Oh, dear one... you are a brave soul! I brought up this issue a few times and quite a storm ensued... yet, I dont think we should avoid this issue as it hold the key to our deliverance from grief... for me, God came to me one day and asked me to pray this way...I have been wondering when I should post it...

-Acknowledge the Pain - He showed me that He wanted me to cry out to Him more than people. (people works for a time - but only for a time - there was something wonderful in speaking my pain out loud to Him)

-CHOOSE to Forgive - He showed me that my WILL of choice is the engine that moved the caboose of Emotions

-Ask for the Healing - He showed me that asking Him is according to His will and we know that IF we ask according to His will...

-Offer "IT" to God - He showed me that IF I would bring my pain, emotions, offenses, offenders, grief... my "whatevers" to Him in a SACRAFICE of praise, no matter how many times (and yes they seem coutless), there would come a release and a healing - one step at a time

-Thank Him in Faith - He showed me that there truly is healing in praise and that when I offer a sacrfice of praise, with thanksgiving, a transaction occurs. When I praise Him, He transforms my pain into gold and reinvests through me into the lives of others...that is where what I've been THROUGH become a precious commodaty (sp?).

It may seem too simple to some, to others perhaps way too complicated or "canned", but I will tell you this: I have shared this with many people since it has worked for me...one woman in her 60's said to me "This has helped me more in 6 months than paying to christian counselors $100/hr for over 2 yrs!"

I think another question is: "What does forgiveness SMELL like?"...for me, the Lord has showed me there is a "Fragrence of Forgiveness"...it is much like The Rose...of Sharon... it smells like grace and mercy...it looks like a sterling rose...all blossom - NO thorns:)

[Carmen]

I can imagine that not everyone wants to try praying for SA enemies. Jesus did tell us to forgive our enemies and pray for them, his doing this on the cross was exemplary. But as with everything he taught, not everyone can do all those things immediately. We are all at different stages of development and as far as forgiveness goes, some have more to forgive than others. I can understand that someone could forgive, but not be able to pray for an enemy. I couldn't do it at the beginning either. Not everyone is ready to hear that after abuse. I don't pray for the pastor that SA'd me every day. Most times I don't want to disrupt a quiet prayer time with bad memories and only do it occasionally.

[Anna Marta]

Hi Carmen,

I agree with you there are times and seasons.

God loves me. God loves my enemy. God forgives me as I forgive me enemy. :rolleyes: I do it as best I can. :(

As for the rest... Jesus loves me... and that's enough for one day. :D
Hugs from,
Anna Marta

[leelees]

im afraid i havent read every post, but suffice to say i will do at some point..

forgiving the abuser ...:mad: *ABUSER*:mad: ...is for me like saying, yes i forgive you so you can carry on doing it to other people...i dont believe they would quite grasp what they have to be sorry for and thus will not bother to change their ways because they see no need for it..so i feel like it would be a waste of a prayer and i got better things to do then think of the abuser person/s.
each time i think of him/them, or im triggered in the slightest way i get a bit het up, therefore i feel like if i even got to the point of praying for them it wouldnt be said in a particularly forgiving frame of mind!

[Hope 98]

I have the same question - I don't know what forgiveness looks like.

I believe I have forgiven everyone that I need to forgive. I just don't know how to relate to them. I don't believe that by forgiving them I have to trust them. I don't believe that all the pain that they caused goes away with a decision to forgive.

I am STILL trying to overcome the results of various kinds of abuse at various times in my life. New issues seem to surface all the time. What people around me sometimes hear as complaining, is just trying to straighten out what has been crooked for so long, I don't know how it's supposed to be when it's right. I want understanding - not to start a campaign of blame and hatred.

But it is apparently obvious to most people around me that I am merely making excuses and lying to myself. I've been told that I ooze bitterness and unforgiveness.

I really don't know what to do with these people. For the most part, I avoid them, and of course they think that makes me all the more bitter and unforgiving. I can't help wondering if they'd consider taking the knife out of my back before they demanded forgiveness again. I've also noticed that people who demand forgiveness, are very unlikely to admit to any wrongdoing.

OK - I've got my head all tied in knots again.

Good questions though...

[Learning to trust]

I just finished writing this for a critical writing class I am taking. I look forward to coming back and reading more of the perspectives people hold. thanks for starting this thread... learning to trust


Forgiveness: Process or Choice?


For my inquiry paper I want to consider the question of whether the act of forgiveness is a process one goes through, or a choice one makes. Is it an act of the will, or a journey? Is it a decision, or a destination?

As a child, I was taught that forgiveness was an act of the will. I was taught that I must always forgive everyone, for everything. I was under obligation and it was my duty to forgive the offender and to forget the offense. I was instructed to turn my right cheek if my left was struck, and to offer my shirt also, if my coat was taken.

As if being wounded was not burden enough, the task of forgiving the offender, and doing it quickly as a matter of choice and an exercise of my will was a catch 22 situation for me. The obligation to forgive without the needed time to process and heal did not give me the opportunity to be honest and left me feeling anxious and stressed. The inability to forgive within that context ignited and fueled an ocean of shame and fear and guilt. Most of my attempts to forgive as an act of my will led me to unhelpful forms of denial, dishonesty and self hate.

The conclusion I have come to is that my ability to forgive comes through a combination of both a process and a choice. The length of my process and the power of my choice are connected to and dependent on my emotional, spiritual and physical maturity and strength. The difference this realization has made in my life is that today I no longer experience the need to forgive as an obligation. Instead, I consider the process to forgive as a journey that I can choose to take. This means that I take the time, allow the space and seek out the support that I need to recognize, identify and accept the truth and reality of my circumstances. I choose to be willing to see and tell the truth even if it makes me and/or others uncomfortable and impatient. Part of telling the truth and staying with the truth awakens me to my limited power over myself, others and circumstances.

The path to freedom and forgiveness is honesty and humility, and the atmosphere is compassion and graceful relationship. When forgiveness is realized, it is a gift to receive, embrace and extend. It is the fruit of truth, grace and time … not a debt owed.

[hornblower]

Some really good posts here. Thankyou for all of them.

I am wondering here about theis question of forgiveness.............
Why is it that as Christians we think we have to teach someone how to be, and what to do? We have an experience with God (or we dont) and we think we must extend our beliefs or experiences that led us to form opinions to another person.

Im not saying its wrong to share our experiences (I think we should share a lot) but its just that I really do believe it is not a 'formula'. If Christianity or following Jesus is a formula why would we need to fellowship with Him, our maker at all? We could just form a club and teach each other all day long and learn our rules and play at this game forever just like every other religion does.

It seems to me that this is what we just came out of and dont want to go back too because we loose our freedom to be ourselves if we do that.

I would have it be that when we speak, if only it could always be this way, and we all mess up on this problem nobody is perfect, we could speak encouragement not shame. Uplifting words not putdowns.
Religion seems to me to be about rules and laws and traditions, teachings and so forth but to me since the word says the greatest of these things is love, that should be our foundational fundamental realization.

It hurts me when people tell me to forgive. Ive been walking with the Lord for quite awhile now. Im not a new born baby. I certainly dont know everything in fact the longer I go on with Him the more I know I dont know anything at all but these things like forgiveness are fundamental to me. I forgive because of course I want to be forgiven for every one of my sins and mistakes which are more than enough to send me to hell and back and there again. I flake out everyday.

But, I cannot with my forgiveness make someone else change the way they are. Forgiovenesds is not a power to change someone and if you have forgiven a lot and have asked to be forgiven you would needlessly find this out, it was definitely one of my first painful lessons. Asking my Mother to forgive me and there was this slight desire inside of myself with the tiny hope that she would see that she needed to ask me to forgive her.
LOL. NOPE NOT IN this lifetime! Its funny now but it wasnt then. For the victim mentality me forgiveness fit right in. My brother would abuse me I would go home call hyim and ask him to forgive me. I didnt do anything wrong to deserve his forgivenees but that didnt matter I thought somehow i could make him love me again. What I got was more abuseing and more and more. Untill I learned that it was he that had done the thing to me and he was the one that needed to ask it of me.

Now let me tell you this experience I had not trying to ever teach anyone believe me..........because you cannot take this to the bank and cash it! It was prayer big time fighting that demon of unhealth of being vicitimised my whole life and taking all of that abuse................I fought it tooth and nail all night long inside of myself. NO NO NO I didnt do anything wrong I didnt do anything to be ashamed of I was the one hurt not him and Im not going to make this right with him he has to make it right with me.

I liken that intercession that night to hanging on a cross and staying there waiting with all of the love there is inside my heart, love I have always had for my brother, but, a respect for myself that I had never had before. The respect that said nothing and waited for him to come to me just like Jesus who forgives the entire world and waits for us to come to Him.

At four oclock in the morning my brother called me and asked me to forgive him for what he had done to me. My brother was an alcoholic and he didnt even know what he had done to me he couldnt remember what it was. Which I think probably is the case with many people who have abused us, they dont even remember it.

Now I say all of this knowing that this may not be the particular thing that anybody else will ever learn about forgiveness. I have no idea who anyone else is or what their story is until they tell me but this is my story which I believe is written down in heaven with my name on it somewhere. Its my testimony and that is how I overcame.

There are many many more times i have learned other things and will continue on learning because it not ever going to be over. God is eternal that much we could teach for sure.

I think we all are learning what we all learn about this fathoming thing called forgivenss because after all it is His forgiveness that we are talking about anyway. He is the one that died for it. We all are with Him suffering for it everytime something happens to us and we suffer it daily I think whether we know it or not.
Praying for our enemies is like the hanging there on that cross every joint out. Lets just say it smarts.
As I go along my way of forgiveness one thing I will share is that I often think this or that may have been what was going on with that other person?
Sometimes that helps me. Sometimes not. As it is worked out depending on my own nature too because we are all different, I learn more and more from the Lord because honestly Ill bet there is not one way of that journey of forgiveness that He doesnt know about.
Its by grace not by works that we are saved. So to me its about my relationship with Him.

[beginagainrose]

Anna?...;) :)

[Anna Marta]

Are you challenging me, beginagainrose?

Okay, here's my take on it.

Forgiveness looks like a gift that is much too fine and costs entirely too much that is nearly impossible to give away for nothing to someone who doesn't deserve it. It is something I often find very hard to give.

It is a thing that, at times in my life, I have wanted and needed so badly that I thought I would die without it.

It can't be earned. It can't be bought. It can't be sold. It can only be given. It is rarely valued at the time it is given. The receiver may or may not ever realize what it cost or even choose to accept it.

The giver cannot afford NOT to give it. For to with-hold it brings a slow and painful leakage of joy and peace from one's life and opens a door to a tar-like substance of bitterness and resentment that will eventually coat every other relationship in life.

It isn't fair and it isn't nice, when there's no thankyou note or reconciliation to follow.

For me, it is the closest I can get to what God did for me when I didn't care about him at all. I have trashed his name, hurt his children, treated him like I'm too good to be seen with him. Yet, I KNOW he loves me - regardless of how he must feel about me some days. He gives me forgiveness before I even ask for it. So when I am dirt mad and think that I have a RIGHT to deny what I EXPECT to receive, it scares me.

Forgiveness is NOT a feeling. It is a choice. I do it for my own soul and well being. It is spirit OVER flesh! I need lots of time to get over the anger, hurt, rage and reactions in my body, mind and spirit.

Reconciliation is a whole other ballgame We confuse it with the act of forgiveness. Reconciliation has to with repentance with a renewal of a broken relationship between me and someone else. I don't always experience that.

Repentance and reconciliation between my enemy and his God is not my business. He will get his! God is a just God. I know my own black heart and I ask God for mercy for me, NEVER for justice. If God gave me the justice I expect my enemy to get... my life would be pretty ugly, I'm afraid.

That's what forgiveness looks like to me. It's not something I find easy or comfortable with giving. However, it the most valuable gift I have ever received -- from my parents, brother, children, husband, friends - and yes even an enemy or 3.

That's how I would answer my own question.

[beginagainrose]

Not MY challenge, dear one... I gave my answer earlier... but, well, said, dear sister, well said...choices indeed.:)

[Willow]

For me... I know I have forgiven when I don't obsess over it anymore and the person's name does not pierce my heart. Still working on the thought of visiting the town the church is in. There are people I'd like to see again.

[hornblower]

you know beginagain I dont know whats going on here but Ive had it. I dont need you or anyone else to judge me and my heart. God is the one that does that.

[hornblower]

For those of you who dont understand this. I am her pink elephant because i dont want her to PM me any longer. She says i wallow in self pity and she being the all knowing wise person that she has become knows so much more than any of us.
I dont come here to be judjed about self pity or about having a chip on my shoulder I come here for comfort and fellowship. I thought thats why all of us came here. For someone to talk to me about my daughter and the pain I feel over her illness every single day..........and then say its a shame I didnt get over it years ago???????????? all I can say is walk in my shoes..........better yet walk in His, He didnt wear any.

[Willow]

Dear hornblower... you should write whatever and how you feel here. I've written and written and written... tears and words and pain... all over this web site. Each of us deserves however much time we need to write it out. If it never gets better... we continue to write until it does. It's not about anyone needing to help us particularly... it's just the process of writing and getting support. Even the critical feedback can be Ok if you can keep it out of your heart and only in your head where you can eat the meat and spit out the bone. Ya know? So hang in there and keep writing!

HUGS to you and hope this helps!

[hornblower]

The thing is I dont think rose understands but if she does then I dont know what I can say that I havent said already. I forgave all of those people immediately and its gone as far as im concerned but heres the thing im not going back! Im not ever going back to that church until that pastor says to me "here lets see if we can work this thing out." Like duh!
This is what those women did to me. They didnt want me to talk about my daughter I guess I dont know they never told me that so I have no way of knowing what was going on.
How can I go to church would somebody please just tell me that? How can I go to church and hide myself my family my daughter?????????????????
Its NOT what happened to her when she was little its the fact that she is sick NOW! She has schizophrenia or brain damage as one doctor said from what that guy did to her. If I seem a little angry now about all of that its not because she was nearly murdered although you might think that with so called Chrisitians youd think I might have a little break! Its what the crime did to her NOW! It doesnt go away you know. She is breaking us down taking all of our money everyday and breaking our hearts for her everyday.

Listen the sad thing is............Ill bet you never hear many people talk about this kind of thing.........guess why? They dont have anyway to tell it because nobody will let them. I knew a woman that was in my chritstian womens group here she couldnt say a word to anybody because her disabled daughter was with her all of the time every single minute. The pain and the bitterness on that poor mothers face. Not bitterness because of her daughters illness. Thats enough though. Bitterness because there was nowhere to go with the pain of it she could never say a word to any body there.

They took the emotion out of testimonies in that organization! Can you believe that? They said to not do or say anything in your testimony that showed emotion because the gospel is a none emtional issue. Im sure i do know what they mean but do they know what they are saying???????????

These people at that church I was in they believed that God does not have emotions. Im telling you that is just downright dangerous stuff. Of course you forgive when you dont FEEL like it. Not any of the things I do are because of the way I feel. If that werent true I would slit my throat NOW! I certainly feel that way a lot!

Here I am trying to get better and here comes someone that has an issue with me not doing something she thinks i ought to be doing. I dont know what is going on but I refuse to be a puppet in somebodies teaching ministry. I applaud whatever means anyone has of getting better especially beginagainrose of course my goodness look what shes suffered and come through. I am not going to tell her to be a certain way. I want her to be free to be whos she is in Christ all of the way.

Just dont presume to tell me what to do and how to be and I definitely resent being told that what happened to my daughter should have been dealt with long ago............and that I wallow in self pity and that I have a chip on my shoulder.
If I have pain and choose to write about it thats not self pity. If it is in her book then I seriously think she has some soul searching to do. To me that is judjing somebody.

All I did and I guess this isnt polite was tell her to bug off. I didnt mean to bug off of here the forum I meant to bugg off of PMing me.

I trully dont see what this nit picking is about anyway I dont disagree with anything anyway its just that I know it already thats all.
It seems that maybe the issue is that if i have forgiven then I should never talk about it again? Or maybe If I have forgiven I should not feel pain?

I dont know and I dont care either. If God isnt big enough after all of these years to show me what it is then I guess I dont know Him. Im open to learn but from Him not from some formula that somebody else has decided that forgiveness is.

Believe me rose i never talked to anyone about you behind your back. I went to Jerry one time, ask him? Way after you got to him too. I have never had anything against you and I never will. This particular subject is very paiunful for me its exactly what those women did to me. Tried to make a show and a popularity contest out of me and the pastors wife. I couldnt care less about being popular. Im NOT writing my book! You go ahead and write one for yourself. Thats what those women wanted me to do, ohh its just such a terrific idea to put my poor daughter on display like that.
Go on DR Phil as one person said. Oh my gosh can you imagine what this would do to her?
I come here to ask for prayer for her and my family its the only church I have. If I went to a church they would start doing what you have done to me rose............start teaching me!
I need grace not teaching. I need prayer not somebody advising me to forgive someone that Ive already forgiven.
Iron sharpens iron, poo, I dont want to be iron. You go ahead and be the iron.

[Willow]

no pressure hornblower... love ya sis!!!!

[hornblower]

Yeah I know Im obsessing. Ok enough here so Im gone to the sleep study and i love you too willow. thankyou for posting to me. Im sorry if Ive upset anyone. TTYL.

[Willow]

((((((((((bighugs))))))))))))))

[beginagainrose]

:) :) :) :) :) ...well, now.... so much for "civility in the forum"...soooo... from out of the mouth the heart still speaks, dear one. I truly didnt know whether to laugh at the outrageous interprutation of my efforts to encourage you or to cry at the slanderous and sad display of such.....(fill in your own descriptions here)... So, let me just accept your invitation, HB, to attempt to show this room what forgiveness looks like.... If I knew how or if I could post my PM's to each and everyone interested into the main forum, I would be happy to do so and let everyone see my heart as I tried, alas, to no avail, to share what I have learned by way of my own issues and trying to help you. I have walked through life long enough to understand much of the "blast" from wounded souls often has little to do with any current thing, but, regardless, HB, I so seek your absolute forgiveness for offending you to this point of outburst or any other level at which you feel I overstepped any interest you may have communicated to me about my own healing journey or assisting you in yours. I was simply inviting dear Anna to attempt to answer your concoffany (sp?) of response (that would be the first round) as I fully expected you to take a shot at mine...which, sadly, you did. I seek the forgiveness of this entire room if any of my posts have communicated an attempt to subsitute my wisdom or insight for your own. I meant no such thing including any idea of making this some kind of popularity contest:confused: I have NO idea what that is about. I simply long to share my own journey and prayerfully, felt that any exhortation should be done priviately. I would remind you, HB, as I did then that you are the one who contacted me repeatedly with a mirrad of questions and I did my best to honor you with my responses as lovingly and gently as I could. Again, please forgive me for failing quite miserably in all regards as you clearly have indicated here. My response here about forgiveness should not be understood by anyone here as some "formula" for success but was only something quite personal, intimate and greatly beneficial that the Lord lead me through during some of my darkest nights of even darker times. By all means, if that is the "bone of contention", as Willow suggested...just spit it out...but perhaps next time... not in my face:( Thank you, dearest Anna, for teaching me a thing or two from this very timely post... and dear, HB, I forgive you... your arsenal hit it's intended target.

[Anna Marta]

Well, it looks like God did have a purpose with this thread.

Beginagainrose and Hornblower, "what does forgiveness look like" seems to have brought something to the surface.

You are 2 amazing women who love God and each other and all of us here on this forum. You obviously mean well and believe with all your hearts what the word of God says. And I am certain that neither of you has the capacity to deliberately hurt or inflict pain on another suffering person!

We all probably stand in amazement at the painful things each of you deals with in your personal family lives and how deeply wounded you are. I, for one, am humbled hearing about the burdens you are each bearing.

I choose to believe that each of you has been desiring to help each other and the rest of us to fulfill what the bible says in helping to bear each other's burdens. Thank you for your love and caring. Your both reaching out in choosing to love and forgive is an example for all of us.

God will take care of the rest and your reward will be worth it - someday...

Shalom,
Anna Marta

[beginagainrose]

I was hoping taking a fresh look at this with the mercies of this new morning would help... I am sorry Anna, "no desire to deliberately hurt or wound"? If this "blast" was "accidental" it has done the same damge. "Opps" never makes wounds hurt any less....and that includes me. So, again, HB, please forgive me for the hurt and pain I have caused you.I truly was trying to be a blessing... and as I stated, am saddened I was not. Sometimes "no thanks" is a good answer. When the good samaritan stopped by the wounded soul to offer what comfort he could, he did his best and then left him in the hands of others.... and, I would point out ( and I Hope;) you get this:) ), it was the pharisee who didn't even try! After almost a dozen attempts, dear ones, I believe I will let this one rest, however, I would rather live with a bitter truth...green in never a lovely color on the Lord's children.:(

[beginagainrose]

Some things just bear repeating... dear Anna.... having done all, stand comes to mind.