Abuse of Church Office Manager

[kaceyr]

I don't even know what to think about my experiences as a church office manager this past year. Over a year ago, the Church Board started complaining about money and started picking on the Pastor's Assistant, trying to get her to quit her job. She finally had enough and left in June 2005. Then they started in on the Pastor and his wife, who was the music director. He was abusing the charge card and spending too much money. He and his wife were a great Pastor and wife, and my friends. I got caught in the middle of all of this, it hurt me so much and I didn't know who to believe. They forced the wife out of her music ministry spot in October, and they forced the pastor out in December 2005, 2 days before Christmas. He was classy enough to tell people that it was because of his health. People did not, and still do not know how awful it was. I was a basket case, but I supported the Church Board because I had to work with them closely till a new Pastor was found. I did everything they asked, and when a new pastor was found, I asked them if my job would be in jeopardy because his wife was his current pastor. I was assured that it was not. The new pastor came two months ago and I never could figure out why he was not friendly to me. I tried to do a good job, but he would only tallk to me when he wanted something done. Sure enough, he called me into his office two weeks ago and said that my job was being eliminated for financial reasons and that his wife would take over part time. That hit me like a brick. I get paid for a month, but church workers get no unemployment insurance. I feel like I have been totally betrayed by the Church Board and the Pastor, and I feel like no one cares. Hardly anyone in the congregation seems to miss me. I feel so all alone, like a gang of bullies have beaten me up, and the congregation just stood around watching. I'm angry and want vengeance. I have not lost my faith in God, but I have lost my faith in church. When I hear the word church, my thoughts are stress, loneliness and betrayal. How do I get past this? I'm worried that I won't find another job very soon. My emotions are all over the place. Why would they want to hurt me like that, just so the pastor's wife doesn't have to look for a job? I don't understand.

Kathy

[SpinningHead]

Welcome Kacey,

You're feelings seem to be serving you well. It's extremely important that you are seperating this "church" (I'm using the term loosely) from who God is. I think when that when you think of "church", remember your old pastor and your experiences when he was there...that sounded like a positive time for you.

Vindication Day...we are all waiting for that.

You're story rings familiarity in that the situation was bigger than me, and your situation seems bigger than you. The fact is that you're not in a position to do anything about it other than examine how to get yourself out of there! If your situation is similar in feeling to mine, then know the congregation doesn't want to care because that would mean they have to get involved.

Take care of yourself. Protect yourself. And make sure you keep yourself from unsafe environments.

That's my thoughts...feel free to ignore everything...I realize I'm jumping in right away sucking on lemons are sweeter than "church leadership" power struggles. It was only time before they turned on you..and anything else having to do with that healthy pastor of your that they squeezed out. :(

The bottom line is WELCOME! You found a whole bunch of people here who DO CARE about what has happened to you!!! And we're mad with you! :mad:

And thank you for having the courage to post your story.

[jane]

The old pastor and his wife....

are they around to be a support to you?

welcome to the group. Your story is upsetting. I am sorry that you went through being loyal to that church group and not recieving the same loyality back.


jane

[Jerry]

Dear Kathy,,,,
The hell you don't get unemployment !!!!!! Sweetie you go right to the Unemployment Office and file......Then when they (The Church) denies it you demand a hearing and demand an accounting of pay records......I got news for them scumbags unemployment is the law !!!!!!! They don't have a choice......don't let them scam you...............You go there with all your W2s.......If they made you sign a (Contract Services) and gave you a 1099 don't worry they are still on the hook.Legally they can not circumvent the Law that way........
Love Jerry
P.S. Oops,,,,,,,,,,,Welcome,,,,,,,,,see???? ya got me goin LOL

[butterfly]

Welcome Casey,

You are not alone. We do understand the feelings you are going thru and the feelings you will go thru.

I agree with Jerry. You dont know if you can get the benfits if you dont try right?

Good luck may God bless you with your needs. butterfly shirely

[dougjb]

Hi Kaceyr,
I have seen this situation too many times over the 27 years I have been a Christian. In every instance, it is a church not functioning in accordance with Scripure. In fact, this type of church is operating under the same paradigms as a corporate business, operating according corporate law, and not in accordance with the Bible. If that church has a board running it as you say, then they are probably a religious corporation. I have found that any church that allows corporate law to supercede Scripture is heading for disaster.
Even though these people profess the Christian faith, I can guarantee that they do not run that church in accordance with Scripture. Maybe someone should tell the [Board] that you cannot run a church like a business.

I am grieved over your situation because you had to go through such an experience as this. I believe that it is absolutely horrible how the broad treated the pastor, his wife, and you. It is my opinion, but I believe that this situation shows a real brazen indifference toward people. If they are willing to do this to the you and the pastor, then what are they willing to do to the members of the congregation. The way they dump people is a sure indication of serious problems.

Rather, I would say that this board is acting like pagans. In other words, they are operating like a secular organization with a religious veneer who treat people as disposable objects[or things] for the good of the corporation.

some food for thought
Dougjb

[Janice]

Dear Kathy,,,,
The hell you don't get unemployment !!!!!! Sweetie you go right to the Unemployment Office and file......Then when they (The Church) denies it you demand a hearing and demand an accounting of pay records......I got news for them scumbags unemployment is the law !!!!!!! They don't have a choice......don't let them scam you...............You go there with all your W2s.......If they made you sign a (Contract Services) and gave you a 1099 don't worry they are still on the hook.Legally they can not circumvent the Law that way........
Love Jerry
P.S. Oops,,,,,,,,,,,Welcome,,,,,,,,,see???? ya got me goin LOL

My sentiments EXACTLY!! If you got paid for the job then you are entitled to unemployment..PERIOD!

[Anna Marta]

Dear Kaceyr,

Yes and Amen! to everything written to you by others :D :mad: :D I want to encourage you to talk it out as much as you need to with people who you trust, if none near you then write here till your heart's content.

Eventually, your mind and your heart will be in sync enough for you to be able to take things apart and set the pieces in their proper place. Right now it sounds like you are still in shock and suffering from the trauma of experience that, in fact, the worst thing that can happen - just happened!:eek:

As far as the congregation's lack of compassionate care for you, no surprise there... many people probably have no idea what is really going on... and even if they did, church sheep, for the most part, have been taught not to think for themselves, but to faithfully follow. :(

Kaceyr, just so you know that God has a plan! Isaiah 55 - All through scripture we see the results of his ways being higher than our ways. His ways always bring honor to the Father in our hearts and through our love for Him. God knows our struggle and how painful it is when those who we trusted the most turn against us. Psam 55: 12-14 David echoes our/your pain

If an enemy were insulting me,
I could endure it;
if a foe were raising himself against me,
I could hide from him.
But it is you, a man like myself,
my companion, my close friend,
with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship
as we walked with the throng at the house of God. NIV

I am glad your faith in our good Father is there. It's okay to show anger, question and cry out to our Father; he waits for us to do that and yearns to show us the way out. If you are like me, you wish the way out was NOT the way through the pain... But unless we go the route we'll never see the truth.

God wants to take you somewhere that only He can reveal to you, but I can assure you - when you get there - it will have been worth it. I highly recommend the book "Hinds Feet In High Places." I think you will identify with the young woman that has chosen to go to the high places to be with the Good Shepherd. She is wounded and crippled - unable to walk properly. Breaking away proves hard as she is pursued time and again by those who want her to remain trapped and bound. The Good Shepherd assigns traveling companions she does not want... and her way often looks like it is winding away from rather than toward the goal... I go back to this wonderful book time and again just to read my highlighted sentences.

God uses the laws of the land to provide for us too, so take Jerry's advice for what it is.

Follow the path and let God take care of things. Relax and know today is all you have to work with... My having control is only an illusion

Love with all my heart,
Anna Marta :D

[SpinningHead]

In other words, they are operating like a secular organization with a religious veneer who treat people as disposable objects[or things] for the good of the corporation.


Oh, Yup! Yup! Yup! Yup! YES! Absolutely!!!! This is DEAD ON CENTER!!! My former "church leadership" (term used loosely) evolved into a business type style and we were not the first people to get hurt!

In fact, I remember saying this to hubby....look at what they did to so and so (our associate pastor & wife - who are NOW thriving in their own church and it's busting at the seems!!) and so & so (TWO youth pastors in a row!!) and countless of others...what made us thought we were exempt from their focus??? Our church started seriously hurting people before us...they hurt us...and they continue to hurt people...we were no different, not special, not exempt...it's now who thy are...Church, Inc. Nothing personal, nothing spiritual...we don't see you serving our needs anymore...you can take your communion on the way out. :mad:

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for being organized and having a structure...but when that organization and structure takes place of people's spiritual lives and focus... it's Church, Inc.:eek:

Excellent way to put it Doug!:)

[kaceyr]

Thanks to all who suggested I try unemployment anyway. I went to the Ohio site and it does say that non-profit organizations don't pay into unemployment, but their employees are still eligible and then the organization actually has to pay it back. Wouldn't that be sweet. For them to actually have to end up paying more per month than if they had just kept me on? I figured it's worth a try, I can't be any worse off than I am now, so I filled out the form. Wish me luck.

Kathy

[kaceyr]

Yes, this church is run as a business. Their focus for quite awhile had been money. Not enough money. I don't think that they understand that if your focus is on money, and you are not treating people well as Christ would have, that you are going to lose the people and their money. But, if you treat the people in your congregation well and with the genuine love of Christ, they will be happy and they will bring their friends to see this loving church, and their friends will bring their money, and you have no problem. They will have to find this out the hard way. And I am better off being out of there.

Kathy

[Jerry]

Thanks to all who suggested I try unemployment anyway. I went to the Ohio site and it does say that non-profit organizations don't pay into unemployment, but their employees are still eligible and then the organization actually has to pay it back. Wouldn't that be sweet. For them to actually have to end up paying more per month than if they had just kept me on? I figured it's worth a try, I can't be any worse off than I am now, so I filled out the form. Wish me luck.

Kathy

Dear Kathy,,,
Don't you take "No" for an answer..............You take full advantage of the process because the Church will resist.....Just figure it is your new "hobby" :D :D
Love Jerry

[Willow]

Thanks to all who suggested I try unemployment anyway. I went to the Ohio site and it does say that non-profit organizations don't pay into unemployment, but their employees are still eligible and then the organization actually has to pay it back. Wouldn't that be sweet. For them to actually have to end up paying more per month than if they had just kept me on? I figured it's worth a try, I can't be any worse off than I am now, so I filled out the form. Wish me luck.

Kathy

Great Kacey. Wish I'd known about this when I got bullied out of the BSSB. They told me I had to quit or be fired. And if I didn't quit they would make life miserable until they could fire me. And then since they are nonprofit I would be without unemployment. Therefore I did exactly as they said and got one month's pay... just like you described. If I'd have known what you found out... I may have stayed around and made them fire me.

Let me know how it goes!

[Carmen]

Mammon. Hmph!

Good luck Kathy and welcome! :)

In my opinion telling the truth and getting justice is not gossiping. Sweeping things under the rug or letting them do it is obstruction of justice.

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.' Zechariah 7:8-10.

Demand true justice in your case and show up their oppression. Truth is like a light that shows up a number of things people would rather have in the dark. It isn't always pretty, but it is reality.

[kaceyr]

The unemployment office says that the church has not submitted it's pay records to the state at all this year, and that they have not registered with the unemployment office. She says that churches usually do not have to pay unemployment insurance. She suggested that I send in my w-2's and pay stubs. I've requested a print out of my pay for 2006 from the church treasurer without saying why. I'm hoping that they send it. I was smart enough to copy the last 4 paychecks that I received, so I can send those too. This is a bit discouraging, though. I sure could use the money.:mad:

Kathy

[Jerry]

The unemployment office says that the church has not submitted it's pay records to the state at all this year, and that they have not registered with the unemployment office. She says that churches usually do not have to pay unemployment insurance. She suggested that I send in my w-2's and pay stubs. I've requested a print out of my pay for 2006 from the church treasurer without saying why. I'm hoping that they send it. I was smart enough to copy the last 4 paychecks that I received, so I can send those too. This is a bit discouraging, though. I sure could use the money.:mad:

Kathy

Hehehehe,,,,,,,see???? I told you this would have to become your hobby :D You just keep jumping through the hoops,,,,,you'll get the unemployment you deserve ;)
Love Jerry

[Anna Marta]

Praying for you and this unemployment scam. Although I haven't been employed in the states in many years, I think Jerry is right. Churches are nonprofit orgs. pastors are considered self-employed (pastors are required to pay taxes themselves even if the church does not have to pay property taxes). Unless you were hired as an independent/selfemployed consultant or part-time hlep I think you maybe entitled to all that the state law entitles. Unemployment comes under state law not federal, if I remember correctly.

Check around and see if there are any free legal help offices in your area. The local bar associations would know of them. You have a simple question - "Is a church required to pay into unemployment for a full time employee?" Frankly, you may have a bit more complex issue going too - do you think you were abused psychologically and forced out unfairly?

Just some thoughts.
Anna Marta

[Willow]

dang... this is cool! If you get your unemployment, I will feel vindicated for my past job situation too! The BSSB really screwed over a lot of people with nonprofit status from what I've heard.

[kaceyr]

Well, I've been trying to get unemployment, but no luck. According to the Unemployment Bureau, Church employees are not considered "employed" by the government. That's really funny, I'm considered employed when they want my tax money, aren't I.

No luck in the job search either. I did have an interview last week, I keep hoping that they call me back. I'm getting pretty discouraged. And I'm starting to doubt myself. I always thought that I was following God's lead in the jobs I've taken, then why have my jobs been so bad. Why would God want me to have to deal with the things that I've dealt with, especially at a church? And why hasn't he opened a window for me after he slammed the door shut so hard? :confused:

Kathy

[Willow]

Dear Kathy... I was in a very similar position when I got booted out of LifeWay. Just keep looking and keep the wheels moving. There's gotta be something out there... even if it's not exactly in your field. I found temporary work and used that as a way to find connections within a university. These connections eventually led to a full time job in my career.

It will be different for you... but keep your antennae up. There's a better job out there for you. The job of your dreams... I believe that with all my heart.

Try not to attach God to the bad and good things that happen. That's like plucking the petals of a daisy.... he loves me... he loves me not. Sh*t happens and it doesn't have anything to do with God. Life is just really hard sometimes.

HUGS to ya
Amy

[Carmen]

That's too bad, kaceyr. :( I really hope and pray you get a good job to more than replace the one you lost. I believe in God's sovereignty, but feel that it can be taken to extremes if not handled carefully. Don't think that you are being punished or something if you can't find another job immediately. I agree with Willow, sometimes sh** does happen.

Somehow it ought to be publicized that a church job is that risky and that no one should put too many hours into one. That probably means that full-time pastors don't get any unemployment either if they are booted out (possibly for doing the right thing). I wonder how many (especially older) pastors keep their mouths shut about not liking what their denominations are doing - just to make sure they get retirement money from the denomination. That could be used as a tool to control them too. Following this concept gets worse and worse....:eek:

[kaceyr]

I agree that when people are hired into churches they need to be told upfront that there is no job security and no unemployment compensation for them. I had no idea. When they did boot the pastor out at the beginning of this year, they did pay him 6 months pay and housing. When they booted his wife out as Music director earlier though, they didn't pay her anything extra.

On the bright side, I finally got a temp job yesterday that will last till the end of the year. It's money coming in for Christmas at least. :o It pays good and is full time. I was told the last girl left crying from the stress, but I figure I'm stressed anyway, I may as well be paid for it. lol

Kathy

[Anna Marta]

Good to hear you still have your sense of humor. :) Good luck in the job.
Anna Marta

[Jerry]

I was told the last girl left crying from the stress, but I figure I'm stressed anyway, I may as well be paid for it. lol

Kathy


What a great "Take No Prisoners" attitude :D I'll just start calling you "Kick-Ass Kathy" :D
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

Well, I've been trying to get unemployment, but no luck. According to the Unemployment Bureau, Church employees are not considered "employed" by the government. That's really funny, I'm considered employed when they want my tax money, aren't I.



Dear Kathy,,,,,
Very interesting concept,,,,,and very well may be grounds to challenge the "Tax Exempt" status of this Church,,,,,and/or challenge the governments right to collect taxes from Church Employees.....You need to find a young attorney that has just passed the "Bar" and has real fire in his guts ;)
Love Jerry

[Willow]

Congrats on the temp job!
You may find that day to day job stress is a welcome relief from the type of life stress you've been facing! :p

[DiligentLily]

Rather, I would say that this board is acting like pagans. In other words, they are operating like a secular organization with a religious veneer who treat people as disposable objects[or things] for the good of the corporation.



Yes, they are acting as we expect pagans to act. But I have had lots of jobs in the corporate world, and some of them treat people much better than some churches do. The thing is--being Christian is not a magic talisman that will make people be good. If leaders in a church take their virtue for granted, just because they are Christians, they won't examine their behavior ruthlessly to see if they are living up. They'll just think that since they are 'God's people' they are righteous. Then they end up being just the opposite, in practice at least.

(((Kacey))), I am sorry sorry for their coldness to you! That is the 'unkindest cut of all.' Please know that we sympathize and feel for you.:( :mad:

[ex-shep]

Somehow it ought to be publicized that a church job is that risky and that no one should put too many hours into one. That probably means that full-time pastors don't get any unemployment either if they are booted out (possibly for doing the right thing). I wonder how many (especially older) pastors keep their mouths shut about not liking what their denominations are doing - just to make sure they get retirement money from the denomination. That could be used as a tool to control them too. Following this concept gets worse and worse....:eek:[/QUOTE]

The senior pastor at church is most upfront about the economic downsides: seminary, tuitions, poverty existance in a small church. There are times when the payroll is dubious. Interestingly enough it has never been mentioned from the pulpit. We get an occassional letter stating the budget is tight, if you can help close the books, it would be appreciated. There is campaign this fall to pay off the youth facility. From a cursory and uneducated finanicial standpoint, it sound like a reasonable goal. I routinely get finacial reports and the numbers look OK to me.

I volunteer, but I do it for the love of it. I usher the Saturday evening service. It is great fun. I will jump in if there is a project; otherwise I am usually at church two nights a week. I did drop out of one group because I felt overcommited.

Good post though. Appreciated the share.

[Jo Jo]

Yeah, I was a church secretary/music coordinator for 9 years, and volunteered for 3 years before that.

It's as though I was in a black hole all that time.

I did every kind of office work and machine/computer imaginable. I took care of the pastors schedules like any executive secretary. But none of this is excepted or noticed now by the 'real' world. My dad kept telling me it would be a good lead in for a real job. I was always insulted since I worked longer hours than normal, and my heart was SO into it. Gosh, and forget unenployment from this job... I didn't even ask.

I realize now if I want to go out in the working world again I will need to go to on of those "Adult Returning to the Work World' programs and take local college classes on things I can already do... to prove my worth. I guess I've accepted that, but I've kind of lost my fire and confidence... all this seems so unfair along with the SA. But I know that's no excuse.

Oh, before that I worked for State Farm and before that I was a clerk at a big local organization, also a sign painter... I had done other jobs, but current is what everyone wants.