Questions....

[Jo Jo]

This is a new thread started from the 'Having doubts about Bible-study group, because I was getting off track.

jo jo wrote:
I think they, the leadership there, were desperate for the same kind of experience that Pastor Cho had with his Full Gospel Church in Korea. They hoped their church would become gigantic and they would be able to prove to the people that hurt them before that they were right. It was all pride, and we lost one of the most important ingredients in our walk - humility. They wanted to set the people that were with them (us) up as icons to use them to draw people into their group. If some how they could psyche us up into 'whatever', so be it. Then when nothing happened they could blame us that their church failed - they did, and they are. We've let them down, we've let God down, we've lost the vision. Eek... even using those terminologies again give me the willies.

ex-shep wrote:
Now there is church which leaves me cold. I heard the leader on TBN. I was having nightmares. Actually there was an article in the Wall Street Journal on the leader. The theology, also subscribed to by the bible school, was a variant of shamanism.

jo jo wrote:
We should probably start a new post.... I think I kind of got this off track...

What's shamanism?

[Anna Marta]

Jo Jo you wrote
"...then when nothing happened they could blame us..."

Oh wow, do I identify with that!:mad:

What we have been seeing is kingdom building and the king is not Jesus :mad: it is the leader or the group of leaders with the same mind.

This is an old story I surmise. We just thought we were the only ones it was happening to. In this age of increased information sharing it will be harder for these guys to hide.

For a long time I have been hearing that people should stop criticizing ministries and leaders because that is not God's way. Actually as I read the bible, Paul is quite clear about our need to evaluate and test and speak truth! :D

Where I came from in America we had the SPCA (society for the prevention of cruelty to animals) and no one wanted to be "outed" by them! It was a scandal to have an animal taken away or be revealed as having been an abuser of a poor animal. :mad: :mad:

How about an SPSA? - (Society for the prevention of spiritual abuse) - Think those shepherds would like to be "outed" by the sheep as they are rescued and taken to shelters, just like the animals are? :p

Actually, this may be happening only not on a grand enough scale... okay, I'm out of my mind! :eek:

[hornblower]

Jo Jo you wrote
"...then when nothing happened they could blame us..."

Oh wow, do I identify with that!:mad:

What we have been seeing is kingdom building and the king is not Jesus :mad: it is the leader or the group of leaders with the same mind.

This is an old story I surmise. We just thought we were the only ones it was happening to. In this age of increased information sharing it will be harder for these guys to hide.

For a long time I have been hearing that people should stop criticizing ministries and leaders because that is not God's way. Actually as I read the bible, Paul is quite clear about our need to evaluate and test and speak truth! :D

Where I came from in America we had the SPCA (society for the prevention of cruelty to animals) and no one wanted to be "outed" by them! It was a scandal to have an animal taken away or be revealed as having been an abuser of a poor animal. :mad: :mad:

How about an SPSA? - (Society for the prevention of spiritual abuse) - Think those shepherds would like to be "outed" by the sheep as they are rescued and taken to shelters, just like the animals are? :p

Actually, this may be happening only not on a grand enough scale... okay, I'm out of my mind! :eek:

wow amen to you my sister so true so true. I LOVE that SPSA. Lets form it. Bless my little lost doggies heart..........the one my daughter now has he is from the spca and was abused. The look in his face tells it all. I wish I could tell you his story. How God led us to him, and named him, saved him and healed him, protected him, but he still has scars from his former life that maybe will never go away. I only bring this up because of the similarities to us all here.
Im sure these men think they are in Gods will doing Gods work, some of them. I think the others are probably shisters (ms) (maybe). In any case they will be sorely surprised at their outcome in the end they should have been focused on the flock instead of their own agendas. Like I have said though so many times before sometimes they are only wanting a job. They go to school and study this and that and then come out thinking ok now Im ready for the 'JOB'. Its not a job its a calling and a very serious one. I really question the idea that they can learn it in a school? Of course these men you are talking about here I have heard of them esp. Cho. I worried over that whole thing it was getting way too big. To me big is not good. I think God is wanting quality instead of quantity.
Oh well.
JoJo what did you do about this bible study thing Im assuming youve left right?

[Anna Marta]

Hornblower, You have struck a chord about their looking for a job. Remember the former thread where we mentioned pastors as having been salesmen?

What better place for a fast-talker to get a job than on a platform telling people what they want to hear for 20 minutes, what you want to do with what they hear for 15 min followed by guilting them into doing it - all with scriptures to back it up :mad: :mad: :mad:

There's BIG money being made all over the world by these guys. Talk about mob psychology and being "set up" to accept something :eek: Terminologies are important things.

[hornblower]

true so true. its pretty messed up isnt it? One time I posted about two pastors that I talked too, one of them was the pastor at a church I dearly loved. it was always in a delicate situation being half charismatic and half traditional thats never an easy situation to walk into.

He was young and had no experience with counceling and the reason I had loved this church so much is that the authorities there had such an outreach to hurting people. Of course the split started happening. Dont take this wrong it shocked me more than it will shock you I know but sometimes while I would be praying I used to have visions or scenes........this one was of this man playing the piano and singing in what looked like a piano bar.

Yes this pastor of this church. I prayed for quite awhile about this as you can imagine. I didnt want to look the fool! Anyway eventually I found a good little private moment that I could share this with him to see if maybe I was going crazy or not? NOT! He told me that was exactly what he would like to do. He never really wanted to preach or be a pastor of anything.

He was understandably miserable as were all of us too. He told me he had to support his family. Another pastor that I went to see told me the same thing that he didnt really want to be doing what he was doing he was never appreciated and he didnt really like itr or feel called to do it but he had to support his wife. She was crippled. It helped me to see where they were coming from I had no answers for any of it. Soon after ward they lost their positions anyway. Now this was not a lot of money because these were small positions at small churches. Truth is I wont go to a big church anyway.
The way I see them is that its just a business, its not a church.

I know it was a huge shock to me that sermons are already written out for these men and they just look them up and basically quote them. I cannot imagine that. Big tv evangelists who knows what goes on? I only know that God specifically told me that His Son dying on a cross was NOT entertainment!

Sometimes i think they start out with the best of intentions and then somewhere along the power chain it goes sour and then it gets rancid and stinks up the whole place. Then there are criminals. We have more than our share of them down here in Texas I think its the capital of huge conglomerate name it and claim it trash heap.

You know whats amazing to me my kids seem to know all of this but they dont care. They were brought up in these churches and their schools so they are used to the (I dont know what to call it) church trash stuff. They just go and listen and sing and go home and live and it never bothers them that they have no idea whats going on there. They just mind their own business dont really get too close to anyone.
I think its sad but on the other hand I wish I had it........whatever it is. When I go I always seem to get involved somehow. I think now it will stop if I ever go back. Plus I know the deceptions now.