When Does Pain Become Pity?

[beginagainrose]

Some of my conversations here have brought me to ask this question. When does our pain cross the line into self-pity? I received a devotional email this morning that really got me to thinking...It said, "Wailers see the problem; worshipers see the solution!" (the vs was "fix your eyes on Jesus"...)I liked that, but it brought me to ask myself this quesiton. While I am pondering this further, I'd love ya'alls thoughts:)

[beginagainrose]

P.S.... today is my 53 birthday... so should I have a party?:)

[Patty]

Whole thing sounds "christianesey" to me and designed to produce the same kind of guilt that I remember (shudder) from my old group. Its a trap!

[Lvanett]

happy birthday! My dad's birthday was today (9/11) also, he turned 77.

About your question: I'm not sure when that happens. I think if we do not turn to the Lord for healing from the pain, or dwell on it too much, it could become self-pity much faster. I know I'm guilty of dwelling on pain and hurt too much myself, to the point it becomes a burden! Then I'm reminded of the old hymn... "Take your burden to the Lord and leave it there."

And if my pain is so great or a burden so great that I can't seem to let go, I think of how Corrie Ten Boom, during her time in prison camps during WWII, handled it. She admitted she couldn't let it go and said, "Lord, you're going to have to take it from me." She turned to Him and expected Him to take the hurt and pain from her that she couldn't seem to let go of.

[Jo Jo]

Yep, sounds like Christianese to me... I was strong for 16 years with my husband when things would have got better sooner if I would have got mad and been real. I worked my butt off and I did everything as perfect as possible for God and he wasn't even asking me to, it was actually man and it was a total waste of time for 20 years in the churches. So now I'm being real. If that includes whining so be it... and this forum I figure is a welcome place for reality and whiners a like, and also for the occasional worshipper... I'm sure they are even welcome. ;) But one thing I'm not going to be here is fake to make someone happy and feel like they are entering a more spiritual place.

Oh by the way... very cool... Happy 53rd Birthday... Have a real kind of year! When Christ sets you free you are free indeed!

[Katie]

I think that after the injury or abuse, pain is to be expected. Attempting to deny or rush through the pain can actually prolong the healing. There is a certain element of time necessary in the healing process. I think the number can vary depending on the circumstances, but arbitrarily, I would say 2 years isn't unreasonable, considering what people have described as normal for the grieving process.

I think that most people who haven't experienced spiritual abuse don't understand the lengthy process of recovery. For me, it was a balancing act between accepting the emotions I was currently experiencing (pain, anger, bitterness, depression, etc.) and making the concious choice that ultimately I would get past this.

I think that self-pity sets in when someone chooses to dwell in the victim identity permanently. That wasn't an option for me. I may have been victimized, but I wasn't willing to become a lifelong victim.

[dougjb]

Hi beginagainrose,
Happy birthday:D :D
What you are asking is a challenging question. I have some ideas but I need to think through the issue a little more. It is thought provoking.

Dougjb

[Anna Marta]

"When does our pain cross the line into self-pity? "

IMHO the line may be crossed when, after time, I refuse to get to the bottom of what it is about me that led to my being victimized and deal with it because I get what I need only through sharing my pain. Kind of like getting stuck and choosing not to move on because I like the attention. Don't know if this makes sense.

[Anna Marta]

P.S.... today is my 53 birthday... so should I have a party?:)

Of course you should have a party!!! :D :D :D Why not, your birthdate doesn't have to change because some terrorist committed a crime, does it?

Big cake, lots of joy - celebrate LIFE - especially YOUR LIFE :)

(((((((:D )))))))
Anna Marta

[Jerry]

No matter how good things get,,,,,my capacity to make myself unhappy is always equal to it ;)
Love Jerry

[SpinningHead]

I think self-pity takes hold when there's no longer a problem (or potential for the same problem) and you know inside it no longer hurts...and yet you hold onto it, telling everyone and soaking up their sympathy, using it as an excuse to avoid doing this or that. When you make sure that your pain is the biggest pain in the room no matter who's hurting or why.

It is NOT self-pity to admit to the problem, admit what kind of pain it causes(d) you, or to do what is necessary to work through a problem no matter how long it takes.

People who accuse you of self-pity or "unforgiveness" when you are truly hurting are just plain mean. :mad: "Oh, get over it! You've got to let go and let God! and forgive those who hurt you and move on with your life...you just don't want to!" :mad: :mad:

Can I get a witness???

[Anna Marta]

AMEN to that Spinninghead!

My daughter accused once me of beating a dead horse. In a very rare show of anger, I jumped up from the table and exclaimed, "How dare you! That's my horse and I decide when it's dead - and it just moved!" :mad: I am still living it down, but she learned a lesson and has since had a few horses of her own that needed an extra beating.

My philosopshy - don't bury anything till it's dead regardless of what anyone else says. Cause it's not their ankle it'll come up and grab! :eek:

[Janice]

Some of my conversations here have brought me to ask this question. When does our pain cross the line into self-pity? I received a devotional email this morning that really got me to thinking...It said, "Wailers see the problem; worshipers see the solution!" (the vs was "fix your eyes on Jesus"...)I liked that, but it brought me to ask myself this quesiton. While I am pondering this further, I'd love ya'alls thoughts:)


I don't know if I'm comming or going anymore.

I HAVE been "fixing my eyes on Jesus" and...things just keeep getting worse!!

If you want to call it self pity then so be it.

[SpinningHead]

I don't know if I'm comming or going anymore.

I HAVE been "fixing my eyes on Jesus" and...things just keeep getting worse!!

If you want to call it self pity then so be it.

(((Janice)))

I would NOT call what you are going through "self-pity"!!! And don't you dare either!!! You my friend are going through an extremely tough time!! Don't you dare get down on yourself! You are being very strong and brave in a very frightening time!!!! You are showing grace and truth and a lot of faith!

I'm not even sure how to offer encouragement to you in this difficult time but "self pity"???? Even if "self-pity" is a word to describe how you feel sometimes...it is absolutely NOT a word I would use for you!!!

Ok?

Hang in there! ((((Janice))))

[jane]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




to me, it sounds like christianese.....

self pity shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. We should feel bad about what happened to us.....


I hate it when people make ANY feelings BAD....

FEELING THINGS IS WHAT HELPS YOU MOVE ON>>>>>


jane

[hornblower]

I personally hate the words selfpity for probably an obvious reason. For a lot of people I seem to be stuck there. In reality its not self pity I want, its love talk. Now this may become a book! Haha. Love talk is what Ive always sought after. My Dad is the one that used to talk to me and it was so soothing to my soul. I dont know how I got this way. Maybe its genes inside my body or something. Self pity always sounds like oh you poor dear thing.............yuk!
Im not poor dear anything. What I am is emotional. I want people that are not scared of being emotional to stick around and talk to me. I want their truth, what they have seen in living, to come out and talk to me. It feels like love to me because the only loving person in my growing up years was my dad. He didnt critisize me, he listened to me.

I went through my church abuse over six years ago. Thats a long time. I didnt even know what spiritual abuse was back then. When I came here this was the first time Ive ever had to talk about it. Its brought up all of the other spiritual abuse that I have been through for thirty years. One by one these revelations have come back to me. I havent told anyone about them except maybe a councelor at one time but even then because I was so used to it happening and she was too that it didnt really occur to us that it might be what we now call spiritually abusive situations.
I cant tell you how much better I am doing since the letting go of my anger and theres a huge amount of it. A place to express what Im feeling. A place to hear others that feel the same go through the same things.

I think I am getting better. I keep a very clean house and cook every night for my husband. Im still in my marriage and Im nicer to my daughter than I've been able to do in some time. Thats huge for me. Also Im loosing weight and now going to weightwatchers all on my own without the support of my husband, or anyone for that matter, thats a big step for me. Ive lost six pounds so far. Not turning to food for comfort is harder than you think if you dont have this problem. Im seeking to get to exercise that is going to be the biggy.
Being lashed out at by my sister last week for obvious bitterness that she has had for who knows how long is not easy for me. Ive lost my Mother Father and brother in the last three years. My daughters life brings heartaches everyday.
Listen......I have some pretty tough doctors around me if they dont condemn me why should anyone else? In fact they marvel at how I keep going on? So sometimes i come on here and whine. Im sorry if I do. Im sorry if it hurts someone else. I dont mean to do be doing that but if this place cannot be a place of understanding please feel free to email me. I will let you rag on forever...........no condemnation whatsoever.
Theres a great deal of hope for me beginagain, my mother and father had alstheimers...........that desease is (oh here I go cursing myself again) inherited so they say. One thing my parents never did when they had that is complain, not much anyway, because you know what, you cant remember where you are, who you are, who anyone is, or even in the end how to breathe or move or love so some day I wont be asking for anyones pity anymore for sure, not that I ever wanted pity anyway.

I wanted and expected to receive the love of God when I went to church. All I asked for ever was some prayer for my daughter. Its not there. So since then Ive grown up and now I know Gods love is where you find it............thats where He is. Prayer should be where God people are.

[newlife]

I agree with what Jane said, I don't like it when people make any feelings bad! I mean, we feel what we feel, right? Why are some feelings considered acceptable while others aren't? Aren't feelings part of what makes us human?

I also loved what Anna Marta said about the "dead horse"! :D It's my horse and it'll be dead when I say it's dead! :D

Doesn't pain and self-pity really come from a person's perspective? We see ourselves as being in pain, while others judge us that we're in self-pity. We're quick to call other people's pain "self-pity", but we don't know what they're really experiencing inside.


And to Janice...ditto to everything that SpinningHead said!!! You are going through a TREMENDOUS trial right now! You are simply trying to cope with the situation! I don't see it as self-pity either!!! ((((((((Janice))))))))


BTW, Happy Birthday, Rose!


love, newlife

[Anna Marta]

Janice, forget the self-pity stuff. Your horse is still running the track!!! As a matter of a fact, there are probably a bunch of us who'd love to help you catch and murder it!!! :mad: :mad:

You must feel free to do whatever it takes to help you get through and I hope you can find a few drops of trust left to believe that we surely do care about you a great deal.

You have a burden now, and no one is supposed to carry one of those alone! That's why God gave you us... We may not be there physically, but we are willing to walk by you. :D :D :D NO JUDGEMENTS

BTW I learned that feelings are neither right nor wrong, they just are... :rolleyes:

[SpinningHead]

As a matter of a fact, there are probably a bunch of us who'd love to help you catch and murder it!!!


Ummmm....can we stop killing animals now?? And all settle down for a nice plate of BBQ tofu?? :rolleyes: :D

(((ok, little vegequarian humor)))

And HUGE HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! ROSE!!!

[Hope 98]

AMEN to that Spinninghead!

My daughter accused once me of beating a dead horse. In a very rare show of anger, I jumped up from the table and exclaimed, "How dare you! That's my horse and I decide when it's dead - and it just moved!" :mad: I am still living it down, but she learned a lesson and has since had a few horses of her own that needed an extra beating.

My philosopshy - don't bury anything till it's dead regardless of what anyone else says. Cause it's not their ankle it'll come up and grab! :eek:


I love this! Very clever come-back and I agree with your philosophy.

In other news...

Happy Birthday Rose

[beginagainrose]

Wow... what great responses to this... thanks everyone for your input and insight. As one who groveled for the crumbs under the table for years (I believe needing and looking for acknowledgement of my pain); I made a very definite decision when I discovered the very intricate conspiracy against me, that I would NEVER get beyond the pain of such horrific betrayl, if I came anywhere near the pit of self-pity. I dont think I always succeeded; but I purposed to strive for that goal as I decided one thing: I was tired of being pitiful; I longed to be powerful and overcome - not just survive. Pls understand I am not trying to single out any one person here; but mostly asking myself the question... I saw the aforementioned word about wailing vs. worshiping and I must tell you after 9 years of processing this huge betrayl of my pastor (et al!), it truly has been the private, face-to-face and heart-to-heart worship in the privacy of my own home, on the silent shore of Harris Beach in Brookings, OR (God was so good to take me "sea-side" for a year when the lawsuit was over or even in places like driving my car. The quote is from Tommy Tinney. I have great respect for his "favor with the King" focus in trying to teach the body of Christ how cherished we are by The Lover of Our Souls...and how He longs for fellowship with us - especially to bring healing and restoration to our broken hearts and lives. Tinney's point was that when we are drawn closer to God's face, we are drawn away for a bit from the circumstance of our pain and suffering, thus gaining a truer perspective. I thought is would be more revealing and healing to just put the point out there and allow people to comment on that... I find myself still pondering this even more than when I first posted this and thank you all for the input once again... I cannot say thank you enough for all of you. I was so "stuck" when I got here two months ago... I am amazed and give all glory to God for my progress - yet - He so often uses people; even in the "iron sharpens iron" way of things to hone my life and you are all a precious tool in His hand. I am forever grateful. I loved so many points made, I cannot pick a favorite - although - one of the best was surely seeking people's attention even when we are getting beyond our pain because we love (or become addicted in a sense perhaps) to the attention... and certainly Anna's delightful "horse-sense":) Just one thought there to ponder... since God is the give of all life and He decides when "it's over"....wouldn't that include this "horse of a different color" as well?... or is that just a bunch of "horse hockey"???:D P.S... I went camping on a beautiful river here in NO. CAL for the weekend (had almost the whole place to ourselves...more on what God did in another thread) AND came home to my new culinary school profess husband's awesome double delicious chocolate cake! (No, didnt do 53 candles!) This "recovery room" as I love to call it gave the true frosting on the cake with so much love! NOT one moment of "pity" at my party except for ya'all who didn't get any cake... Hey! I had my cake and ate it too!!!:D

[beginagainrose]

Jerry... this is where the "pink elephant" started:rolleyes:

[Carmen]

I think one can wail and worship at the same time. It is like saying, "Hey God! I'm hurt. I'm sad. I don't know what to do. But I know that you are there and that you are big enough and glorious enough to solve any problem."

[overcomer]

i think this is very true, that it happens.
that's when it also becomes dangerous to your health.

but realization that you are being followed, being threatened, because you have no voice in the matter, is devastating.

and because the pastor who you actually, somehow still love and forgave a long time ago, keeps pounding into your head year after year that you better forgive him, you better forgive him - these are the sermons he preaches in follow up to knowing he did something wrong. he spins 'forgiveness' on you.
'you better forgive' - 'so-and-so in the bible forgave'. and now you're bad if you don't forgive. you are bad if you don't forgive. he controls the whole thing.
that's manipulation, that's not following the Spirit.

then you are afraid to leave, because you have seen what he is capable of doing, and you stay, and try to forgive, because you are trying to pretend it all probably really didn't happen after all.

then he starts up again, every time you speak publicly, he just happens to come by the room and address the group before you speak, and he threatens you - during his prayer - to watch what you say. or he'll linger outside if he knows you're going to be coming to a particular event, and just in case he thinks you'll say something about him, he's so publicly nice to you, so nice to you. and you want to scream down inside, you want to scream and cry and it hurts so much because you know - for sure - that he really does not love you at all. he's just scared you'll say something about him, so he sets the stage to create the illusion that he cares.

pretending it didn't happen? damage has been done. in reality, it did, it all happened, and now there is damage. much damage. devastating damage. emergency room damage. health damage. pschye damage, damage like never before.

but still, when you are tempted to just run his name in the ground, you know there is somehow a love, deep inside you, that keeps you from embarrassing him, from hurting him. he's a scared, frightened man, and i just wish he knew i forgave him a long time ago. i wish he'd have done the same thing for me, before deeply hurting me like this.

i tried to tell him, i really tried, even through the years, i tried. but if i said too much, if i openly said, i forgive you to him, then he'd know i knew what he'd done for sure, and i'd learned his personality is such that there was no telling what he'd do after that. sin and fear, it's such a devastating thing.

i know there is a love in me, that's beyond me, beyond myself, beyond self.

he's just scared, and scared men are dangerous men.

he's got a public voice, which he uses to control people. i'm afraid, God help me, that he's trying to use it to destroy me. i would never do that to him. he's already done that to me.

focus - focus on Christ, this world is not my home, i'm just a'passing through, my treasures are laid up, somewhere beyond the blue. the angels beckon me, from heaven's terrestrial shore, and i can't feel at home in this world anymore.

oh Lord you know I have no friend like you.
if heaven's not my home, then Lord what will I do?
the angel's beckon me from heaven's open door,
and i can't feel at home in this world anymore.

lot's of love in this heart of mine. God's love. He is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. the Lord is good to all, His tender mercies are over all His works.

laying down my life, for God's glory, because He will work all things for good.

[Jo Jo]

Oh, overcomer... that is just the most profound post! So many good and true feelings and facts in it.

he's just scared, and scared men are dangerous men.

And yet we stay silent because we try to live like God wants us too, also because we are scared, and maybe becasue we remember the good times with these people... if we had them. I had lots with my old leadership. I'm so mad at them right now things just get more creepy with them... I'm going to post a new thread about it. But I had to make note on this. It was a validation and an encouragement to me. That there's more to the story... that the bad stuff isn't the last word. :)

[Carmen]

To get away from an abusive situation, one can also have pity on the abuser at a distance.

[beginagainrose]

Welcome, Overcomer! I have been out of town since Fri and just cked in...good to take a break... just had to reply to your post... when I first read it, I thought wow! Is this someone who knows me and my situation/story?! It was like you were "scared men are dangerous"...Indeed! Your post ready like prose! It was awesome...:)

[beginagainrose]

[QUOTE=beginagainrose;38230]Welcome, Overcomer! I have been out of town since Fri and just cked in...good to take a break... just had to reply to your post... when I first read it, I thought wow! Is this someone who knows me and my situation/story?! It was like you were "scared men are dangerous"...Indeed! Your post ready like prose! It was awesome...:)[/QUOTEIt was like you were "scared men are dangerous"...Indeed!] Oops!:D I meant... it was like you were THERE!...

[overcomer]

looks like many of us are there, in Spirit, together.
sounds like the Spirit may be grieving because of all this we experience.
only things to do is to praise, give and offering of praise.

and cannot stress again (this may offend some groups when i say this and may receive warning, though i honestly say this is just how the Lord is teaching me to look for His purposes) but, i really believe God is showing us, while we are here in the church, what will be taking place outside the church, near the time and after the church is raptured.
lots' and lots of things keep being pointed back toward things that Jesus went through, and that Israel as a nation went through, and more things, worse things, that they will be going through.
so as we go through these things, we must continue examining ourselves that we are indeed in Christ, take the sacrements of the Lord's supper in repentance and faith, and we pray: our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name....and we must pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

anger? has it's place, and God gives protective outlets, where teaching continues. think of the song, 'while upon the isle of Patmos, John beheld a glorious sight'...
this is freedom and glory.

but for the ones trying to control you while you are going through anger at what they have done? they will cram it down your throats that you better hush and forgive, you better forgive. (and as a matter of fact, you may start getting anonymous emails or pamphlets that are speaking of forgiveness and submissiveness, all kinds of things, by their self protective ways. to protect their image. the key is, the mailings will somehow be anonymous, unable to trace back to who sent them. much of it is for their own image's protection, sad to say, because they actually still want you in their control and earshot.)

this is manipulation. but forgiveness comes from the Lord, and so does conviction.
condemnation comes from man. when they gang up to convict you, secretly gathered, they are trying to play the Holy Spirit, thus, not believing He truly exists, nor trust Him. They don't want to hear the whole story, they only want to give the illusion, not the Light. they delight in exposure of others, not the Light of the Lord.

BUT God - and simply that, like it states several times in scripture - "But God"....He intervenes. He doesn't waste a thing.

For He is alive, and well. He's sanctifies us, and sets us apart in seclusion, not as anyone who is more special than others, but he has given us a gift, a heart to pray for the church, and also definitely for Israel, in all the things we go through ourselves, and we pray against the surrounding forces out to destroy her, waiting to humliate and annihilate her.

And so...we sing the songs of Zion, but not while in a foreign land, during the manipulation and coersion. Can't do it, not while God says no. He knows all things, so we sing to an audience of One, or when He sets us on a mountain overlooking a great valley, or in a valley looking up to the mountain we are to climb. we sing. and we are not alone in our gifts of song, of praise, of worship. God is with us, and there also is a great cloud of witnesses, bearing witness of this light.

He is with us, and He moves mightily during this marvelous pain. Focus is on the Lord in the inner sanctuary provided by His wings, and we are safe.

God, be glorified. We magnify your holy, holy name.

okay, have a great rest of the week, was just sharing a few things. :)

[hornblower]

Oh my gosh overcomer this is so profoundly uplifting for me so beautiful for my painful insides. Its like milk and honey and a healing oil on my dry bones. I cry and cry and somehow I know its still God inside of me. I have no explanations I cant stick up for myself being the way I am now, but all I know is that He knows the way that I take.......... He knows me, I am His and He is mine.

Forgiveness is like this to me. He is lifted up on that cross and He has already forgiven these people but they do not come to His side or His nail scarred hands and I? I stay there at His feet; somehow I see Him. In my long alone days alone here I sing to Him. I dont even understand the words but I sing inside of myself...........what else is there to do?

Maybe what happened to me happened to them also? Maybe they were in so much pain they did all they knew to do and they did it to me because its who I am and they dont know me yet in the spiritual. Maybe Im easy to hurt because I was hurt already? Maybe none of us knows each other in the spiritual realm at all. Everything we say gets twisted and misunderstood, words do not mean what they should because the prince of the power of the air twists all of it.

Who knows? Not me. I am here and I forgive them, I know they did not know what they were doing to me. I am on the cross with Jesus. Somehow I always knew this that it would be this way even though I fight it so much. He showed me at the very first it would be this way and it is.

Im not surprised at all at any of it never have been even when it happened but I cannot go and get them they will not come to this place for whatever reason. So here we are alone in our painful situations disagreeing and miserable if they are? I have no way of knowing I dont want to know anything about them.

I cannot put myself in that place of being under that man any longer. There has got to be something to be said about his control even though at that church it was never said, nothing was said at all. They said he didnt have control over anyone he didnt want control but it never felt that way it felt like a cult to me. I felt heavey and was being put in a place that I had no say in. I was not free or loved in any way. I still dont understand it at all.
I dont think I believe in church any more. No buildings. I dont understand any of it but I continue on.

[overcomer]

for encouragement:

there is a fountain filled with blood, drawn from Emmanuel's veins,
and sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains.
lose all their guilty stains, lose all their guilty stains,
and sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains.

E’er since, by faith, I saw the stream Thy flowing wounds supply,
Redeeming love has been my theme, and shall be till I die.
And shall be till I die, and shall be till I die;
Redeeming love has been my theme, and shall be till I die.

i declare again, and testify here and now that i have been plunged beneath that flood of Jesus' blood by His love, and i have lost all my guilty stains.

all hail the power of Jesus' name, let angels prostrate fall.
bring forth the royal diadem, and crown Him Lord of all.
bring forth the royal diadem and crown Him Lord of all.

Ye seed of Israel’s chosen race, ye ransomed from the fall,
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all.
Hail Him Who saves you by His grace, and crown Him Lord of all.

i declare and testify here and now that Jesus is Lord of all.

in Christ alone, my hope is found, He is my life, my strength, my all.
this cornerstone, this solid ground, firm through the fiercest drought and storm.
what heights of love, what depths of peace, when fears are stilled, and strivings cease,
my Comforter, my all in all, here in the love of Christ i stand.

no guilt in life, no fear in death, this is the power of Christ in me.
from life's first cry, to final breath, Jesus commands my destiny.
no power of hell, no scheme of man can ever pluck me from His hand.
till He returns, or calls me home, here in the love of Christ i stand.

i declare and testify here and now the i am standing in the presence of Jesus
Christ, and nothing can separate me from His love.

How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!
What more can He say than to you He hath said,
You, who unto Jesus for refuge have fled?

In every condition, in sickness, in health;
In poverty’s vale, or abounding in wealth;
At home and abroad, on the land, on the sea,
As thy days may demand, shall thy strength ever be.

Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid;
I’ll strengthen and help thee, and cause thee to stand
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.

When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.

The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.

When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you.

Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.

"and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Lord, I believe in You. I believe by faith in Your Words, Your Promises, your Ways.
Your love is higher and purer and broader and deeper and wider than any love we've ever experienced from mankind. You are perfect in compassion and mercy and love.

And we declare and testify here and now, by the faith of Jesus Christ within us, that we will walk by faith in Your unfailing love.

God, thank you for Your Word, who was with You in the beginning.

Praise You, Lord, for You knew our days before the foundations of the world.

We are precious in Your sight.

[beginagainrose]

Thanks for the encouragement Overcomer... the sentiment is sweet, yet, I have one question: are you suggesting my thread was to "guilt trip" people? Some of response seems to indicate so, if I am not mistaken (if so, forgive my response here:confused: )... Tinney's devotional encouraged me to press on by bringing me before The Father, face-to-face and heart-to-heart..that is a place of pure love and acceptance - not condemnation or guilt. (Rms 8..there is now, therefore, NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (sorry, I forgot the scripture warning thing - still dont get that:confused: ... regardless, I thank you all for the response to this thread - it has been a great blessing - and that so many of you chose to take the time to peruse it. Lord Bless you all.:)

[overcomer]

oh, no, not at all. your post was encouraging to me. i considered it pressing into God.

and your response is just fine, thanks for speaking it out. sorry if it came across in a way that wasn't easy to understand.
i guess i just like singing, i love songs, and they help me so much during trials.
just knowing i am nothing without Jesus, but He is everything in me, and therefore there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ.
just as your heart is speaking.

(you mentioned scripture warning - the 'warning' i was wondering if i would get is because i was speaking 'pro Israel', and i don't know how well that goes over in here. simply that.
i don't know if it would be viewed as a political topic, and not accepted. but i watch Israel, and pray for them, and things i go through, and see going on around me - i pray for Israel in those things too. i feel like the Lord is leading me in that. and when i do so, satan hates it...he just despises it...therefore, i keep doing it).

i am just trying to sing over us, in humility, but also in faith, that God is working in all these things. i probably get too much into myself sometimes, you all can see that, but this anger has to have an outlet, even when they want us to cram it down and hush....and then they say their anger is righteous anger...
as for me, i went through many years of physical abuse, and couldn't talk about it. was told to hush, was physically threatened in formative years, still affects me.
well, now i am recognizing spiritual abuse, maybe because of what i already went through. i can see their eyes, just like i did when certain events happened many many years ago that i just can't talk about.
it's interesting to me how i can forgive those guys, from years ago who perpetrated that physical act upon me, i can forgive them easier than these guys who are doing this now, in a spiritual manner, wielding power that they claim is from God, doing what they want, and then telling me to 'hush'.
but to be honest, there's still alove there too, and i don't know which it is, is it from God, or is it the old tapes that show my naive side, the one that gets taken advantage of. so, best thing is to stay away from them and just keep singing.

no, i am not putting anybody on a guilt trip, and i am so glad you came out and just plain asked. good for you, i'm glad you asked, and thankful that you did. i have been learning to ask like that, too. just ask, so it will be clear, and so satan cannot have foot hold or cause misunderstanding.
and that is what should be able to be done in churches today, but in some of them, it is not. they hide things, they control things. they fully manipulate things.
and then what i must do is just get to heck out of there, and keep singing, for God has confirmed He will never leave me nor forsake me. those songs i wrote down are special to me. try the cyberhymnal site, it so cool. type in cyberhymnal on your search engine and it will take you there.

for me, i'm just trying to get through it all, and God is somehow doing it for me, while I have no strength. He is my strong tower, and I am shielded in Him.

the declarations and testimony? i'm pressing into the scripture that 'they overcame by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony.'

love ya. :) and please always feel free to ask me anything for clarification, cause maybe i will need to do that also! if i haven't answered all your questions, let me know.

[beginagainrose]

*singing* BLESS THE LORD, OH MY SOUL AND ALL THAT IS WITHIN ME BLESS HIS HO-LLYYYYY NAME! AMEN!;)