Having doubts about bible-study group

[Carmen]

Maybe I am being paranoid, I don't know.

I am no longer satisfied with the bible study group I go to. We just met for a potluck last week to start the season again. Everyone gave testimonies (may have been expected) on how they were able to tell a relative about Christ while on vacation or discovered that relatives or friends were Christians. I related a visit to my inlaws, not in detail, where I said that they were non-Christians and that the visit did not go all that well, we have so little in common, they are too fixed in their ways to hear the gospel. No one wanted to hear it, the subject was changed relatively quickly because it was negative, I think. The pastor's wife was there and talked about Paul's happiness when in prison despite the circumstances. I felt that it was aimed at me. May be imagination.

The group has changed its methods. We are using a particular study that is copyrighted like before, but now a small charge is asked for. We all had to fill out small forms to register, also a new thing. One from the group is now group leader, she is in charge of the paperwork. I never got devotionals from her before, but got one by email after the meeting. I think she was put up to it and will regularly have to send devotionals to the group members as a sort of reminder to come every week without saying that explicitly. She told everyone to invite three people a week to come to the meeting. No one said that last season. I think she was supposed to say that. I may be paranoid, but I think that church growth is creeping in here. The more I see the structure and methods of the group, already read about them online, the more I seem to smell control. Last year we had to stay on a schedule during the session which did not allow much room for free discussion. There was a lot of looking at watches and cutting things short. Now they did hand out a schedule.

Class Schedule

9:30 Arrival Members/Coffee & Fellowship
10:00 Opening Praise/Worship Song
Devotion/Opening Prayer
10:10 Discussion of Weekly Questions
11:15 Praise/Worship Song
11:20 Message
11:45 Close
12:00 Clean-up & Out

I think it is more like a franchise than a bible-study now, despite the good quality of the study. Didn't Paul say not to sell the gospel? I was looking for a more house-churchy atmosphere and have to fill out a form and pay a set amount. I can't talk freely unless it fits directly in with the aims of the study. Last year a regional leader came and dished up a lot of teaching that wasn't in line with the study, it was strictly from a particular American sub-culture, which would not appeal to Italians, which they hope to attract eventually, once the studies have been translated into Italian. This is pending. The study itself is good, I think, just not all the packaging around it.

[Patty]

Whenever I ignored my intuition, red flags, the voice of the Holy Spirit, whatever you want to call it, I ALWAYS was sorry. You are not being paranoid, just wise.

[Anna Marta]

Dear Carmen,

I'm suspicious of overly religious/structured things too. Frankly, I don't understand why people can't just come together for a study, share how it is effecting their lives - and be done with it! Why does every happening have to be a full fledged well organized worship service? Maybe I'm not religious enough, but then that's been the story of my experience in the neo-pentecostal milieu. :o

[jane]

I can't talk freely unless it fits directly in with the aims of the study.



time to leave.


listen to your heart. you already know what you want to do.


jane

[jane]

I quoted that one sentence about not having the right to talk unless it lined up......because in my mind it is no longer a bible study but a training of your mind to their way of believing.

A bible STUDY is where you all take the time to read, study and learn the bible.


Not being able to talk without following a guideline reminds me much of the way Jehovah's witnesses indoctrinate their new believers. They sit with the new comer with the bible next to "teaching guides" that explain the scriptures with a bend of truth....so now the student is now reading the bible, reading the study guide which now puts thoughts into the students mind about what the bible means....

revelations ends with a warning not to add or subtract....just because people don't add to the bible doesn't mean that they don't do the same thing by controlling the way you study to conform your thoughts to their belief system.

just my opinion.

I would run.

jane

[jane]

oh, and i would make them give me back the money that I gave them ....

tell them you withdrew from the class within 30 days.........:p


jane

[newlife]

Carmen,

What do you mean by "church growth"? Our new pastor that we got in June seems to be into "church growth". Like you having doubts about your Bible study group, I'm now having doubts about the church that we're attending. The dynamics have definitely changed since he came. He is currently preaching a series on evangelism and yesterday he said that he wanted people to come who have never been saved vs. disgruntled people coming from other churches. Immediately I thought, "does he see our family as disgruntled people from another church?" He does know some of our story, but when I was sharing some with him, he questioned why we would stay in a cult for 10 years and he also has not been very interested in our experience. He also comes across to me as condescending. He has made those comments about we shouldn't say negative things and he quoted the scripture "Do all things without complaining..." (Phil. 2:14) a couple of weeks ago and said, "that's in the Bible". His wife has asked me a lot of questions and has seemed interested. Last night, though, she and another lady and I were talking and when he got ready to leave, he interrupted our conversation and told us that she needed to go home!!! The only reason why we continue to stay there right now is because my family goes there and we have gotten involved in ministry. This WAS the church that helped us so much after we left the cult, but that had a lot to do with the previous pastor, who had some understanding about spiritual abuse and authoritarian leadership. :( :( :(

newlife

[Jerry]

Dear Carmen,,,,
That's not a Bible Study,,,,,,,,,,I know,,,I have taught many.They are not teaching how to study the Bible,,,,They are trying to teach you "What To Believe" there's a big difference kiddo ;)
Love Jerry

[Scooter]

I just had a thought about "church growth," "evangelism," whatever term you'd like to apply. This is quite a new concept that occurred to me (so if you've known it all along, please simply smile, nod your head, and make me feel smart :p ).

I'm thinknig about the early church of the New Testament. Isn't it interesting that we don't read about Paul crying out in Ephesus, "Come to our church meeting this Sunday evening! Come to church!" They didn't assume that people are more likely to become believers by coming to church. Meeting with other believers was a natural action that occurred after becoming a follower of Christ. The church's mission appears to be strengthening fellow believers, learning about God, and worshipping together. The work of sharing the gospel was accomplished individually, in the early believers' everyday lives. The gospel was delivered, not from a pulpit, but from fishing boats, reclining at dinner, and in the marketplace. It was the capitalized "Church" (aka the collective body of individual believers) that spread Christianity, not the "church" that gathered in one specific building.

So do churches have their priorities amiss when "growth" becomes such a structured endeavor?

[Jo Jo]

Oh bugger.

Should Carmen go right now guys, though? Or wait a couple of weeks and see if the beginning freakish zelouness of starting the new year settles down?

My husband wants to go to a Bible study that's starting next week on prayer. I'm going to be freaking out! I know my radar will be on high too, but Carmen's group sounds a little blatant to me.

You have some really good advise here from the wise one's Carmen... ah... that wouldn't be me. :o :rolleyes:

[Patty]

Dear Carmen,,,,
That's not a Bible Study,,,,,,,,,,I know,,,I have taught many.They are not teaching how to study the Bible,,,,They are trying to teach you "What To Believe" there's a big difference kiddo ;)
Love Jerry

WOW, You just encapsulated my understanding of what happened to me in this short paragraph. Head rush.

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Carmen;37761]Maybe I am being paranoid, I don't know.

sounds too structured for me. As another poster said, gut level indicators are extremely reliable resources. Our church runs on the clock too. Pretty efficient for one who was in broadcasting.

The church growth does not bother me at the church. I guess I have room to take it with a grain of sodium chloride. Obviously your situation was far less than satisfactory. I can relate. Nothing worse than force fed agendas.

[Jo Jo]

Our church runs on the clock too. Pretty efficient for one who was in broadcasting.

Yes, I don't mind a quick service now either, but the cult I was in had 4+ hours of exshausting rig-a-marole... freedom in the spirit... that I think went in with their manipulation and control. We were even allowed to comment during the service, but it better be the 'right' comments and we learned even what that was. There's a difference of course between normal relaxed freedoms and crazed structures. All relaxed freedoms... are not always truly free. After all their double talk and personal jargon, I'll take a quick structured service any day. There are pluses and minuses on both sides.

But Carmen's situation still sounds different that what I'm speaking of, what the services are like in my church now. The services where I go are pretty simple ... still. *ominous music here* ;)

[Forsaken]

If you feel no love or joy there, do not go. Just my opinion.;)

[dougjb]

Hi Carmen,
From what you have stated, there is a definite change in the group from a Bible study to something else. It sounds like someone wants to transform the Bible study into a church. What I find troubling is the lack of clear communication regarding the changes. I believe there is an obligation to inform everyone in detail what is taking place. It seems that the movers and shakers of that group are moving forward with a specific plan of some sort. I would suggest that you find out who is making the changes and what exactly their plans are for the future - with an expectation for detail. You are not some pleb, but a vital member of the body of Christ; therefore, they have an obligation to fully inform you on everything. Again, I find it troubling that things are not being communicated - it is a little strange.:confused:

Some food for thought
Dougjb

[ex-shep]

Yes, I don't mind a quick service now either, but the cult I was in had 4+ hours of exshausting rig-a-marole... freedom in the spirit... that I think went in with their manipulation and control. We were even allowed to comment during the service, but it better be the 'right' comments and we learned even what that was. There's a difference of course between normal relaxed freedoms and crazed structures. All relaxed freedoms... are not always truly free. After all their double talk and personal jargon, I'll take a quick structured service any day. There are pluses and minuses on both sides.

But Carmen's situation still sounds different that what I'm speaking of, what the services are like in my church now. The services where I go are pretty simple ... still. *ominous music here* ;)

Very true in both counts. The bible school services could run on for hours too. Carmen's group definitely wierd agenda. It is enough for me just to pack up and leave.

[Jerry]

Very true in both counts. The bible school services could run on for hours too. Carmen's group definitely wierd agenda. It is enough for me just to pack up and leave.

Dear Exshep,,,,
How could one learn anything in a class like that !!!!! ???? :eek: I learned a long time ago that the "Human" attention span when receiving technical information is about 20-30 minutes beyond that is useless overloading ;) When I teach Bible here is how it goes;Start with a blessing,,,,,,
First 20-30 minutes....I present the material ie: Hebrew Idioms & Figures of Speech,,,,,or Biblical Numerics or Hidden Acrostics ,,,,whatever with no comments from the "Peanut Gallery"
Second 30 minutes.... Questions and discussion about material presented........
Every 4th Sunday.....No new material,just open discussion about what the Scripture writers contemporaries understood ,,,,and how that can apply to us today.............And ya know what???? I never need to tell my students "What to Believe" They figure out what to believe all on their own :D ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because THEY are smart :D
Love Jerry

[SpinningHead]

If the class isn't meeting your needs...make a new plan, Stan! :)

[mary]

Aargh, Carmen!!!!

I don't like the sound of all that stuff that you related. There's a women's Bible study at a church I was run out of about 6 years ago that's "organized" and run almost exactly as you described (and it, strangely enough, also ran a tight schedule between 9:30 and noon on a Tuesday morning... :o ).

There was another Bible study - a couples' one - that my husband and I were in a few years ago that was run like that. Turned out that one of the other husbands didn't like a couple of opinions I expressed and he started making fun of me relentlessly for things I can't change, such as my height, etc. That fell apart real fast.

The Bible study that my husband and I are now in is taught by a Messianic rabbi, but he doesn't run it as you described. We've been studying Romans for some time now, but if someone in the class is hurting, has prayer requests or other issues, Rabbi stops the regular discussion and we help that person instead. He's very flexible. Also, even though this study sometimes draws up to 40 people, there's always room for someone to make a comment, ask a question, refer to another book of the Bible, etc. Rabbi does try to keep the class to 60 to 90 minutes, but he doesn't get upset if things go over. (He doesn't get upset about anything.) There's informal discussion afterwards...

Newlife, double aargh!!!! Oh, my. A "seeker-friendly" pastor who'd actually turn somewhat of a deaf ear towards the flock who've been hurt elsewhere? Where is that in Scripture? I hate to say this, but it sounds like a "fellowship" I left a few months ago after I was told never to bring up what was done to me in the "Synagogue of Satan," i.e., my old church, again. I know you've done a great deal of healing there, but I just don't know what's up with that... I know that you eminently know what you're doing, you and all of your family, so -- I also know you'll just be careful & we'll be praying for you.

Love to all,

mary

[Anna Marta]

Jerry, So what time is class? I want a seat up front :D :D :D Oh, what I'd give to have a bible study teacher like you!

[Jerry]

Jerry, So what time is class? I want a seat up front :D :D :D Oh, what I'd give to have a bible study teacher like you!

Anna,,,believe it or not,,,I teach in a Pentecostal Church ..... :eek: "Red" the Pastor has been a 20 year friend of mine.........."Red" said to me when he talked me into teaching there......."Jerry,,,,,,It's my job to guide them,,,and your job to make them biblically literate and your better at that than I am ",,,,,,,,,cool guy eh???? I asked "what about the Rapture,,,you know how I feel about that,,,,Christ is coming here,,,your not going anywhere " Red laughed and said,,,,"Can ya start next week ????" So that's part of my weird life,,,,,I teach in a Church that I am not even a member of,,,,go figure :D

Anna,,,I would love to have you in class :o
Love Jerry

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Jerry;37816]Dear Exshep,,,,
How could one learn anything in a class like that !!!!! ???? :eek: I learned a long time ago that the "Human" attention span when receiving technical information is about 20-30 minutes beyond that is useless overloading ;)

We were probally too hynpotised to care. The pastors could ramble on for hours. The school convention services Memorial Day always went into overtime and extra innings. The graduation excercise, between preludes, one preaching mesage, message from the salutarian and valedictorian and the diplomas ran from 1545-1910. Come to think of it, if there were a guest speaker, you would be looking at 3 hour run time. Sunday morning ran from 1045-1315. Add Sunday school 0930-1030, it made for a long Sunday morning. Of course one had to back at 1900 for 2.5 hour service.

[hornblower]

Carmen Id give it maybe one or two more weeks and then scram if it doesnt get better. I really hate that bring 3 people thing. I dont like the testimony thing about witnessing either. Its just not something I believe in doing any more. I cannot understand people that dont ever talk about Jesus to others but the reason I feel that way is that I think people should be open and honest about who they are. Its not a thing I do to gain points with Jesus or to be put up on a pedestal in church. Can you imagine how Jesus would feel about us being like that? Its not a (like you say) business or a game. Nope maybe not even wait for the crash to happen.

[ex-shep]

Carmen Id give it maybe one or two more weeks and then scram if it doesnt get better. I really hate that bring 3 people thing. I dont like the testimony thing about witnessing either. Its just not something I believe in doing any more. I cannot understand people that dont ever talk about Jesus to others but the reason I feel that way is that I think people should be open and honest about who they are. Its not a thing I do to gain points with Jesus or to be put up on a pedestal in church. Can you imagine how Jesus would feel about us being like that? Its not a (like you say) business or a game. Nope maybe not even wait for the crash to happen.


I actually taught a adult Sunday school class on cults. I found the following scripture does shoot hidden agenda out of the water:

1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

-II Corinthians 4.1-2 [NIV]

[Jo Jo]

Shep wrote:
Very true in both counts. The bible school services could run on for hours too...
Hey you too? *shakes cobwebs out of brain* ggg

Jerry wrote:
How could one learn anything in a class like that !!!!! ???? I learned a long time ago that the "Human" attention span when receiving technical information is about 20-30 minutes beyond that is useless overloading
Yes, I've been learning a lot about the practical side of being a human. A good and right thing, how God created us. It was something to be ignored in the cult, I guess, a sign of spiritual weakness maybe? ...It's not by might but by my Spirit says the Lord... Those were how those scriptures were twisted on us. Somehow until the very end, it was pretty easy for me to be there. :confused: I guess if we missed we would be the lesson the following week. HA! ;) Not overtly, but covertly... indirectly... and who all the words from God would be about. eek! I know that is not all the Pentecostal churches fault or what they are like, there are wonderful ones out there, but that is why I'm now gun-shy about them. Unfair of me probably, but a tweak I now have. :o

[Anna Marta]

Jerry wrote:
"I know that is not all the Pentecostal churches fault or what they are like, there are wonderful ones out there, but that is why I'm now gun-shy about them. Unfair of me probably, but a tweak I now have."

Call me "Tweaky" too!:eek: We have decided never again another Norwegian Pentecostal church! Our experience has been that each of them is building a kingdom that has nothing to do with the real KING! :o Most either are or become - centered around the personality of the pastor and his brand of religion, which nearly always encompasses building something BIG for GOD (natually with that pastor at the head of it)

It's amazing to watch, once you recognize the tactics for what they are, how people can be motivated, indoctrinated, manipulated, dominated, and all the other "ated" too. All in the name of Jesus.

[Jerry]

Yes, I've been learning a lot about the practical side of being a human. A good and right thing, how God created us. It was something to be ignored in the cult, I guess, a sign of spiritual weakness maybe? ...

Dear Jo-Jo,,,,
That's the problem that so many of these guys have,,,,,they reject the terms of their existence......God commands the terms of our existence...The terms of my existence right now is "human",,,,,I would guess to teach me something ;) If I leave the spiritual in Gods and the Saviors hands,,,,then I am predisposed to learn what God wants to teach......If I reject the terms of my existence,,,,,I remain a fool ;)
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

Jerry wrote:
"I know that is not all the Pentecostal churches fault or what they are like, there are wonderful ones out there, but that is why I'm now gun-shy about them. Unfair of me probably, but a tweak I now have."


Dear Anna,,,
I did not write that ;) I don't think unless it is from a post out of the "Archives"
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I would have been here yesterday but had problems with the modem. Got a new one that seems to work, sort of. I still can't access some sites that should be there.

I'd have mentioned the name of the group, Mary, if one could do that here. It is highly likely that you were in one of their studies, they are mainly in the US but are already in about 12 other countries.

Once I get a job, hopefully soon, it will be in the mornings and I probably won't be able to go anyway. That will at least save me an explanation.

Newlife, your situation sounds suspect as well. I had hoped you would find peace with the new pastor. There are different kinds of church growth, healthy and unhealthy. I was referring to the unhealthy one.

This site has a list of articles about the bad kind of church growth (this may be relative), the authors have different approaches, go to them at your own risk. http://www.erwm.com/Church%20Growth%20Movement.htm

[Anna Marta]

Sorry Jerry, It was Jo Jo in post # 25 of this thread.

I still don't get the hang of how to use the QUOTE buttons. :confused:

[Jerry]

Sorry Jerry, It was Jo Jo in post # 25 of this thread.

I still don't get the hang of how to use the QUOTE buttons. :confused:

Hehehehe,,,,,,,,,,no problem you'll get it :D

[Carmen]

Hi Jerry, referring to post 21. That pastor of "yours" must be pretty cool. He must be an exception for that kind of church or even others, I have only encountered hardliners in it or the space cadet type.

[Jerry]

Hi Jerry, referring to post 21. That pastor of "yours" must be pretty cool. He must be an exception for that kind of church or even others, I have only encountered hardliners in it or the space cadet type.

Exactly Carmen,,,,he is quite a guy.....I have never heard of one instance of spiritual pressure in that church....If it were to happen I know "Red" would not tolerate it......And I know his temper :eek: I wouldn't want to be neer "Ground Zero" if he got wind of abuse ;)
Love Jerry

[Jo Jo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Marta
Jerry wrote:
"I know that is not all the Pentecostal churches fault or what they are like, there are wonderful ones out there, but that is why I'm now gun-shy about them. Unfair of me probably, but a tweak I now have."

Dear Anna,,,
I did not write that I don't think unless it is from a post out of the "Archives"
Love Jerry

No... that was me who wrote that... jo jo (he he) :rolleyes: The quotes were just around the part that Jerry had quoted earlier, and then my stuff followed below. :) Maybe I'm all too technical on the editing toys. ;) I do that for a friend's writing... it probably leaks over here. Ooops... now I see below that you guys already saw that it was me... *snort*

[Jo Jo]

Jerry wrote:
Dear Jo-Jo,,,,
That's the problem that so many of these guys have,,,,,they reject the terms of their existence......God commands the terms of our existence...The terms of my existence right now is "human",,,,,I would guess to teach me something If I leave the spiritual in Gods and the Saviors hands,,,,then I am predisposed to learn what God wants to teach......If I reject the terms of my existence,,,,,I remain a fool

Yes, I think that's a problem in the Pentecostal churches... they believe so strong that God steps outside the bounds of our humans existence, and that it can depend on our faith to take place. eek So if we can get in the right heart and mind set it should happen all the time. We should be able to sit and learn in 4 hour services, there should be signs, we should be able to heal the sick - all the time, we should be able to raise the dead, fly around, transcend space and time.... I mean really where is their limit if they keep going.

That's what happened to the church I was in. One example the guy prophet gave a word that I had the gift of healing. After that, I could tell there was a resentment toward me if there was any sickness there. Where was my faith? Why at least wasn't I trying to heal everyone? Why was anyone sick? God was limitless... so why was I holding him back? eeeeeeeee Why wasn't I using the gift God told them He gave me to heal them, and to draw people in to their midst? ... and why wasn't it working?

It's not like I didn't pray at all for them. One time I remember I was praying for a lady and the pastor's wife yelled at me and gabbed my hands and told me to touch the lady in a different area. I guess... the vibes weren't quite going through in the right spot. I almost walked out of the prayer time then... I mean I thought that was crazy! I do believe God heals... but he sure doesn't need the song and the dance to go with it. We can't put him in a box.

The joy of stepping back into my humanity and knowing that God made me that way, and loves me that way, and that the other was abuse, brings me more joy than you know. The weight that has been lifted off of me is staggering. I rejoice that I am just a sheep. I never wanted that stuff... Even though the excitement of all of it was fun and that's what got me hooked.

I think they, the leadership there, were desperate for the same kind of experience that Pastor Cho had with his Full Gospel Church in Korea. They hoped their church would become gigantic and they would be able to prove to the people that hurt them before that they were right. It was all pride, and we lost one of the most important ingredients in our walk - humility. They wanted to set the people that were with them (us) up as icons to use them to draw people into their group. If some how they could psyche us up into 'whatever', so be it. Then when nothing happened they could blame us that their church failed - they did, and they are. We've let them down, we've let God down, we've lost the vision. Eek... even using those terminologies again give me the willies.

[ex-shep]

I think they, the leadership there, were desperate for the same kind of experience that Pastor Cho had with his Full Gospel Church in Korea. They hoped their church would become gigantic and they would be able to prove to the people that hurt them before that they were right. It was all pride, and we lost one of the most important ingredients in our walk - humility. They wanted to set the people that were with them (us) up as icons to use them to draw people into their group. If some how they could psyche us up into 'whatever', so be it. Then when nothing happened they could blame us that their church failed - they did, and they are. We've let them down, we've let God down, we've lost the vision. Eek... even using those terminologies again give me the willies.[/QUOTE]


Now there is church which leaves me cold. I heard the leader on TBN. I was having nightmares. Actually there was an article in the Wall Street Journal on the leader. The theology, also subscribed to by the bible school, was a variant of shamanism.

[Jo Jo]

We should probably start a new post.... I think I kind of got this off track... :o

What's shamanism?

[ex-shep]

Go ahead. That is a good idea. Just make sure what is referencing so as not the leave the readers in the lurch.

[Carmen]

Update, Just as I was at the bible study group today, I got a call I was waiting for. I have a part-time job for a while, so can leave the group and still save face. The ladies are nice, it is just that the organization that does the group is controlling. I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and now I don't have to. I will miss the ladies, but not the attempts at control. I can still log on in the afternoons, will only be working 4 hours a day, 6 days a week. I start Monday. Yahoo! I really needed the money and sense of independence. :) I still have time for my kids and the site, and forum(s).

[Jo Jo]

This has worked out Great Carmen! I'm really happy for you - Congratulations! :) :D :)