View Full Version : Denial throughout the realm
lee^1
09-10-2006, 01:21 AM
I have recently had the occasion to talk to several people, who go to different churches, about the reasons I do not attended a church. Everyone of those people told me how wonderful their church is, and how I should go there. I wonder if it is possible that I am imagining the abuse I have seen and experienced in churches. Is it possible that every other church in the world, except the one I was at, actually is a place of blissful delight? Or, is it possible that there are far more people in churches, living in some state of denial about what the real problems and issues are? I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this sort of behavior from those who still attend the fundie churches?
Jerry
09-10-2006, 05:50 AM
I have recently had the occasion to talk to several people, who go to different churches, about the reasons I do not attended a church. Everyone of those people told me how wonderful their church is, and how I should go there. I wonder if it is possible that I am imagining the abuse I have seen and experienced in churches. Is it possible that every other church in the world, except the one I was at, actually is a place of blissful delight? Or, is it possible that there are far more people in churches, living in some state of denial about what the real problems and issues are? I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this sort of behavior from those who still attend the fundie churches?
Luke 7 verses 29-35 :D
Love Jerry
P.S. Nothing has changed ;)
Willow
09-10-2006, 06:06 AM
Dear Lee,
You are not imagining things. It's hard not to second guess yourself, however... what you experienced was real and the patterns are widespread. There are people in church that haven't been on the bottom side of mistreatment. After you've been there, however... you can't help but see it happening to other people, whether they realize it or not. It's one of those things you can't see until you know it's there, but once you know it's there you can't help but see it.
HUGS to ya!
Amy
well,
don't you find it odd that they want you to come to their wonderful church?
Yes, I have come to believe that denial is widespread.
there was a time when I thought denial was a terrible thing.....I was on a race to recovery from a terrible childhood....
now, I LOVE denial. It keeps me living in today and gives me peace with my children.
seriously.
There is just SO much dysfunction and sickness around that I don't have to face REALITY for ALL of it?
I think that the people who think their church is wonderful NEED to feel that way and make it more wonderful in their minds than it really is. I find that they will even use phrases to protect the imperfections that you may find, "oh, but it is still people and people aren't perfect" or "well, NO church is PERFECT" (like you're an idiot for thinking such a possibility just because you questionned something.)
just my thoughts,
jane
Jo Jo
09-10-2006, 10:46 AM
I think we were taught to be good sales people. To cover up these horrible things and make God look good... like he couldn't take care of himself or something. Like things weren't going to come out worse for all the lying in the end. What a bugger mess it all grows into.
JOJO-
THAT'S EXACTLY IT!!!
When my mother in law met our old pastor, she said he was a great salesman....Funny, before coming to the ministry; HE WAS A SALESMAN AT A SHOESTORE!!
You're right. It was like we had to sell our own church and hide the flaws- to protect God from not looking perfect.
jane
ex-shep
09-10-2006, 11:29 AM
I think that the people who think their church is wonderful NEED to feel that way and make it more wonderful in their minds than it really is. I find that they will even use phrases to protect the imperfections that you may find, "oh, but it is still people and people aren't perfect" or "well, NO church is PERFECT" (like you're an idiot for thinking such a possibility just because you questionned something.)
just my thoughts,
jane[/QUOTE]
I realize this may trigger some. It may be that it is a nice place to go. I can readily understand the cynicism. I have experienced it myself. The once burned twice shy is a powerful operant motivator.
I invite people because I like the church. It has been good to me. Finding churches which understand spiritual abuse are rare. The last two churches were adept at how not to preach the gospel. How to know when the water is fine was tricky for me. Just my two cents. Hope it was balanced and non triggering. Immediate apologies if it were.
Anna Marta
09-10-2006, 01:29 PM
Your old pastor was a SALESMAN???
That's so funny! The first pastor that we permitted to screw up our life was a former salesman too!!! The next one had basically the same personality package... :( :(
The pulpit is a great place for a salesman/actor... :mad: :eek:
Willow
09-10-2006, 01:33 PM
I realize this may trigger some. It may be that it is a nice place to go. I can readily understand the cynicism. I have experienced it myself. The once burned twice shy is a powerful operant motivator.
I invite people because I like the church. It has been good to me. Finding churches which understand spiritual abuse are rare. The last two churches were adept at how not to preach the gospel. How to know when the water is fine was tricky for me. Just my two cents. Hope it was balanced and non triggering. Immediate apologies if it were.
Hey... thanks for the balance. We all need balance! The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle... right?
ex-shep
09-10-2006, 01:38 PM
Hey... thanks for the balance. We all need balance! The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle... right?
eh, I'm just a gratefully recovering loose cannon:p
Willow
09-10-2006, 01:39 PM
Me too... me too... well... hopefully recovering! Sometimes I think I'm digging a well... other times it feels more like I'm digging a grave.
ex-shep
09-10-2006, 01:41 PM
Your old pastor was a SALESMAN???
That's so funny! The first pastor that we permitted to screw up our life was a former salesman too!!! The next one had basically the same personality package... :( :(
The pulpit is a great place for a salesman/actor... :mad: :eek:
Ok, I have to laugh at that one. The original founder of Tammy's group was a salesman too. He still has his ventures come back and bite him. Former member sarcastically entone, "Praise the Lord and pass the Slick 50". Does somewhat remind one Jesus and the moneychangers, now, doesn't it?"
Is it possible that every other church in the world, except the one I was at, actually is a place of blissful delight? Or, is it possible that there are far more people in churches, living in some state of denial about what the real problems and issues are? I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this sort of behavior from those who still attend the fundie churches?
Hi, Lee,
To answer your question: no. Many if not most churches have significant problems. The worst of them should be padlocked from the outside during a service, while all the nutcases are inside, and "beamed up" by some efficient means immediately to Planet Xenon, where they belong. Including my old church.
Fundie churches and reformed churches, uh, most but not all have pastors whose egos would rival and probably surpass that of Napoleon. "L'etat, c'est moi!" ("the state, it is I!") becomes "Cette eglise, c'est moi!" ("this church, it is I!"). "Play ball" with "pastor" and his lovely and gracious wife, ask how high when they tell you to jump - or face the dire consequences. "Smell the glove" and take the lashes...
As I've said before, had I not had such serious doctrinal differences with the RCC from about the age of 7, I think I would have been better off staying there, warming pews and having no one speak to me for 80 years. It could have happened and as long as I was still born again by the grace of God, I would have been better off for it. I certainly would have been better off never having set foot in any of the "Reformed Protestant" churches I ever joined - except for one back in the nineties.
Just my opinion...
mary
InTheory
09-10-2006, 02:09 PM
"Smell the glove" and take the lashes...
mary
Mary, I LOVE the Spinal Tap reference...seriously, you're so right.
Ex-shep, God bless you for finding a church that seems balanced (sincerely-you always seem to post in an honest, sensitive, and humble manner, so I took your post at face-value!!!)
What I have come to believe (RIGHT NOW...qualifier... :) ) is that religious organizations necessarily house a lot of wacko leadership, due to religions' inherent tribal nature (i.e. my tribe is the right one, you're tribe is wrong-this is trans-faith, as all religions have this attitude, whether covert or overt in expression).
Buyer beware when it comes to churches-when we have the strength to leave abusive situations, we often "wake up" from the dream of what the church supposedly did for us, and realize that we only hoped and wanted it to be what it was not.
Take care all!
Good topic.
-Dan
lee^1
09-10-2006, 02:13 PM
It is interesting that some of you mention pastors as sales people. When I did the Myers Brigg personality test, It said I would make a good sales person or a pastor. Isn't it interesting that even those who know nothing of church, equate the two things. Fortunately I didn't take the thing to heart. I like working in the mental health field assisting people.
leelees
09-10-2006, 02:22 PM
i am an ex window sales person...never very good at it!
Jo Jo
09-10-2006, 10:19 PM
Seeeee, it's freaky about this pastor/sales person situation.
ex-shep wrote:
I realize this may trigger some. It may be that it is a nice place to go. I can readily understand the cynicism. I have experienced it myself. The once burned twice shy is a powerful operant motivator. .....
Finding churches which understand spiritual abuse are rare. ......
I enjoy the church I go to now. Even though it always seems hard to go, I'm glad when I get there. I think I have preconceived notions from the last place then it turns out it's not that place and then I have a good time with good teaching and people who are not hurting me or using me for their lesson subject that day. It's by far not perfect either, but I will not expect that ever... kind of like what InTheory mentioned before, which also makes me very sad, it's like the innocence is gone.
But what I wanted to comment on is that how do you KNOW if your new church can handle past spiritual abuse? I would like to share my story possibly, at least with some people, or leadership maybe at some time. Even though I just scream "no" inside... don't share ever again. I am pretty open there at being myself, but you know... it's not REALLY sharing, not, "oh hi, I just came from a cult."
Have any of you shared with your new churches about your past experiences? I have the sneaking suspicions that if I did share then I would be the one that would have the bad mark not the ex-cult. I would be the one with the short coming not the place that was doing the abuse, teaching false doctrine. I would not be looked at for successfully removing myself from a cult, but I would be looked at for being in a cult, causing trouble, and would be branded for it. Do any of you have better results to share? If you want.
Anna Marta
09-11-2006, 01:31 AM
JoJo wrote:
Have any of you shared with your new churches about your past experiences?
Yes, as a matter of a fact, we had a long talk with the pastor before we joined. The result was that when we began to see the same old control, manipulation, confusion etc. things happening and addressed them - we were told we were imagining it, they did not exist here- we were reacting to our old wounds!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: The sound in Steinar's voice when he replied that we had hoped and prayed the pastor wouldn't try to go there - said it all... :(
SOOOOO would I tell another pastor or group??? Probably not the whole story. I think I would share bits and pieces depending on the topic at the moment and only to make a specific point. I am beginning to see in our need to be accepted and the fear of not wanting to be fakes we have this need to "come clean" - "be honest", "open" and hope and pray we have found a SAFE place and that may not ever be completely true when dealing with other humans who are every bit as sinful as we are...
Boundaries are serious things and need to be clearly defined. It is taking us some time to get this concept from the book to an actuality in our lives. :rolleyes: I am getting better at drawing my line in the sand. :D
But what I wanted to comment on is that how do you KNOW if your new church can handle past spiritual abuse? I would like to share my story possibly, at least with some people, or leadership maybe at some time. Even though I just scream "no" inside... don't share ever again. I am pretty open there at being myself, but you know... it's not REALLY sharing, not, "oh hi, I just came from a cult."
Have any of you shared with your new churches about your past experiences? I have the sneaking suspicions that if I did share then I would be the one that would have the bad mark not the ex-cult. I would be the one with the short coming not the place that was doing the abuse, teaching false doctrine. I would not be looked at for successfully removing myself from a cult, but I would be looked at for being in a cult, causing trouble, and would be branded for it. Do any of you have better results to share? If you want.
I've shared with a couple of other congregational leaders part of my story... Because it involves sexual abuse and harassment, they had rather odd reactions. The Messianic rabbis: one knows just a few details; he was very sympathetic. The other one, the senior rabbi, knows much of the story and he advised me never to talk about it again. He also told me that I might observe him hugging some of the women in the congregation in a brotherly manner (and I have), but he said that he would never hug me. We've been going there 10 months now and while he treats me in a warm, friendly manner, he always only shakes my hand. (That's fine.) The other pastor, a Reformed Protestant one, treated me badly. It was almost as though he thought I was making the story up. He also told me never to speak of it again. We're no longer attending there.
I don't think I'll ever tell my church abuse story again to another clergyman, based on those incidents.
mary
SpinningHead
09-11-2006, 10:42 AM
I have recently had the occasion to talk to several people, who go to different churches, about the reasons I do not attended a church. Everyone of those people told me how wonderful their church is, and how I should go there.
It sounds to me that you had a need...and these people were not a safe place to share that need. They couldn't see past their own euphoria and assurances...who were they trying to convince? You or themselves?
I wonder if it is possible that I am imagining the abuse I have seen and experienced in churches. Is it possible that every other church in the world, except the one I was at, actually is a place of blissful delight? Or, is it possible that there are far more people in churches, living in some state of denial about what the real problems and issues are? I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this sort of behavior from those who still attend the fundie churches?
Yes, your abuse was real. I believe people know abuse when they feel it.
No, not every church but yours is a place of bliss...b/c that statement would have included the church I just left and bliss is not a word I'd use to describe our experience. It is a word I'd use to describe dark chocolate. But I do believe that at there are churches that exist who are at least trying to be healthy and are honest about their issues (I can live with that)
Yes, many people are in denial or are ignorant of the reality that their church has issues.
and OH YEAH, BABY! have I experienced fundie people swearing up and down how fabulous their church is and how "the pastor just wouldn't stand for such behavior or Un-Christian like attitudes and pride!" Oh, well! sign me up! put me to "service" in the nursery, slap my fanny and call me Ismarelda!
Carmen
09-11-2006, 12:03 PM
Lol, Mary! I've got another one, "C'est moi qui commande!" I am the one that commands! I don't know who said it first but it is a well-known phrase in French. Somehow I got that one thrown at me too.
I think that a lot of people don't know about the abuse because they have not been at the butt end of it. The see others as being "disciplined" rather than abused. Most don't look for false teaching. I have not told the pastor of the church I sometimes go to now about the abuse. I did mention it, but not in detail. No one pressed to know either. I think a lot of people just can't deal with hearing about such things, because they "are not supposed to happen" in Christian circles.
Lol, Mary! I've got another one, "C'est moi qui commande!" I am the one that commands! I don't know who said it first but it is a well-known phrase in French. Somehow I got that one thrown at me too.
I think that a lot of people don't know about the abuse because they have not been at the butt end of it. The see others as being "disciplined" rather than abused. Most don't look for false teaching. I have not told the pastor of the church I sometimes go to now about the abuse. I did mention it, but not in detail. No one pressed to know either. I think a lot of people just can't deal with hearing about such things, because they "are not supposed to happen" in Christian circles.
Carmen, ROFLOL - I have a mind's-eye image of putting "C'est moi qui commande!" on a church logo, maybe on a banner... Wouldn't that be great? :D At least, it would let "newcomers" know what they were getting into! (Oh, no - that's strictly against these churches' policies, isn't it? I'm sorry - I forgot for a moment! :cool: :eek: )
No, you're right: most people don't want to know. Our Messianic Jewish congregation has a large number of black members and attendees. I was talking to one whose husband is an usher and greeter there and she asked me how I happened to come to the shul. I said, "Oh, well, we had some problems in a Reformed church and pastor threw me out for really no good reason..." She sort of chuckled and said, "You, too, huh?" This lady is one of the nicest people I've ever met in a church setting, but she had her own story of church abuse, which is how she and her husband wound up in a Messianic synagogue. It's modern Christianity's dirty little secret and everyone it happens to has a unique and yet similar story. But we don't have to worry, for our Lord and Savior is taking copious notes... :)
mary
The question about whether or not to tell another church is a whopper of a topic in of itself maybe needing it's own thread.
My experience was similiar to spinningheads.....
Within a month of being at the new church they had a huge split right at service that had nothing to do with me or my family. We were upset with how EVERYONE was reacting.....but didn't get involved- honestly we had just left an abusive church after 9 years with people that we LOVED....we couldn't care too much about strangers that behaved like this except that it was a horrible thing to see done in Jesus's name.
and, even without saying a thing....
people approached us in a patronizing belittling way- too bad that we have to see this because we are already so wounded from abuse....that we would probably see this the wrong way and leave...:eek: :eek: :eek:
and in visiting churches-
or talking to other christians-
because we really really needed to talk and talk and talk about it as we left....
we were looked at like lunatics...
or told that we really should let go of bitterness because we would hinder God's blessings.......
or told to forgive........
It was NOT well recieved.....
AND other's that we know who talked about being spiritually abused....we have heard them talked about by christians as being "too sensitive....or OBVIOUSLY unable to submit to authority-see the rebellion in their bitterness....or too broken from their childhood.....
I could go on and on.
So, as for us.....we talk if we want to but we have not recieved any supportive or empathetic responses except from HERE and other people that have felt abused by churches---like the liberal people; the homosexuals; etc... Now, those people have seen the abuse and concur with us about the hypocracy....
the problem is that when you have people who were once viewed as "working for the enemy" the only one's who agree....you question if you really are under an evil deception just like the church said you were for leaving.
So, I thank God for this place because there is a range in what the people believe about God....and all take the time to listen to me and validate what I have felt.
jane
Jo Jo
09-11-2006, 05:39 PM
Thanks for the responses!
I thought that's kind of what might happen... I think some times people want to be supportive, but they don't know how... or they say the stupid 'christian' thing.
Sounds like, yes, you were treated as the tainted ones - almost re-victimized. sigh
Sharing affected your present situations... the old things were brought up in your new relationships. I feel that was very unfair, they judged you not by your new merits, but by fears or suspicious they have about 'cult', or spirital abusive situations, not by who they were getting to know - the wonderful people that have gotten free of bad experiences, and who are healing. Anna's past was brought up to try to control them. They set up new rules to deal with you, as in Mary's case, and they didn't try to grow or change those things as healing took place. Maybe Mary would have appreciated a hug down the road as trust was established, maybe not, but it could have been discussed in a relationship format not just decided up front in a judgment type decree. I thought that was mean, unfriendly and unfair of them Mary. :mad: It is like they treat us as the ones who caused the problems and that's not true.
I know that my friends that remained in the cult that really did care about me dropped all contact, because, as Carmen said, they felt I was being disciplined by God and the leadership, and it wasn't their place to step in for fear of interfering and/or receiving the same treatment. It's like we were a pack of dogs instead the Body of Christ. And the greatest of these is love?
That is just the feeling I get when I leak any small bit of information out to any new friend or acquaintance in my new circle of friends. It's like they can't handle the information. I shouldn't probably expect they could unless they have gone through a similar situation and know what I'm feeling.
Well, I don't know if I won't share anything, but I sure the heck will be very very careful and think on it doubly double times before I do. I must be stupid if I still think I might. What is that in us that we want others to know us and understand us and accept us? Gads, we aren't so bloody bad after all. :p It has to be so totally my codependancy. Pthphhhhhtttt Who needs them anyway. ;)
Gosh, it would be nice to find a live human group on this subject around here to meet with. I think I would fade without you guys. Thank you so much for sharing this stuff. :)
Jerry
09-12-2006, 07:44 AM
It is interesting that some of you mention pastors as sales people. When I did the Myers Brigg personality test, It said I would make a good sales person or a pastor. Isn't it interesting that even those who know nothing of church, equate the two things. Fortunately I didn't take the thing to heart. I like working in the mental health field assisting people.
Hahahahaha I don't know why the delay,,,but I just read this post and the following flashed through my mind.............
A guy walks into a Church Lobby for the first time.The Pastor comes running up and says........."How ya doin today sir ???" I bet your in the market for a previously owned "Savior".......Well just step over here and take a look at this honey.........not too many miles on this one !!!! and for a mere tieth ,,,,,I can put you in the drivers seat :D Just don't wait too long cuz someones gonna snap up this deal no problem ,,,,,,Just step in my office and we can write this up for ya :D
Love Jerry
They set up new rules to deal with you, as in Mary's case, and they didn't try to grow or change those things as healing took place. Maybe Mary would have appreciated a hug down the road as trust was established, maybe not, but it could have been discussed in a relationship format not just decided up front in a judgment type decree. I thought that was mean, unfriendly and unfair of them Mary. :mad: It is like they treat us as the ones who caused the problems and that's not true.
You're right, Jo Jo - I would like a "brother hug" from Rabbi and I discussed that with my counselor, that maybe I could let him know that I know he absolutely does not think of me as my old "pastor" did and so, I would welcome a "Christian brother" hug from him, if that's routine with him... I definitely did not cause the problem in the other church (I am not interested in other women's husbands! - especially pastors! :) :p ) and I would not cause a problem for Rabbi. I just haven't yet figured out how I would broach the subject with him.
I appreciate so much your thoughtfulness in your entire post, those remarks to others, too, of course. Thanks.
mary
Jo Jo
09-12-2006, 10:37 PM
Oh Mary that's very sweet and you are very welcome. I hope you find a way to broach this subject with the Rabbi.
I just don't like how leadership so often tries to fast-track us and pigeon hole us, instead of really finding out about us, taking time. After all ministry is a people situation... I'm sure they get tired and burned out too, well I know they do, but then they should take the time out, not take it out on us.
They need to take care of themselves too, so we don't get hurt worse. I know the pastor of my cult was so hurting when we all left the first church 6 years before - he should not have been pastoring. We all needed care at that time... he was angry and took it out on us - but hopes and dreams are hard to turn from the path. It doesn't justify the behaviour, though, just maybe another possible reason for it. :confused:
Jo Jo
09-12-2006, 10:39 PM
A guy walks into a Church Lobby for the first time.The Pastor comes running up and says........."How ya doin today sir ???" I bet your in the market for a previously owned "Savior".......Well just step over here and take a look at this honey.........not too many miles on this one !!!! and for a mere tieth ,,,,,I can put you in the drivers seat Just don't wait too long cuz someones gonna snap up this deal no problem ,,,,,,Just step in my office and we can write this up for ya
he he he :D eek! This is too funny Jerry!
I've known some good meaning Christians who kind of make you feel like this. (he he) ;)
JoJo wrote:
Have any of you shared with your new churches about your past experiences?
:D
My experience is that is not a good idea. I do not use the words, Spiritual Abuse. Most do not know what that means. I occasionally say I've had a bad church experience and wait for questions as to what that was all about. Rarely do I have to go any further. Most do not want to hear of a negative church experience. They all want to stay on the positive side. Can't blame them. Dealing with the reality of things wrong in churches is not a popular thing to discuss. You can easily become labelled as a negative influence and find yourself being marginalized. Try to use wisdom in talking to others about your past church experience. If possible, try to find those who will really listen before you say anything. Let God's Spirit guide you to those who will have His love to hear what you have to say. Be very cautious with who you share precious things with. He will guide you. Learn to hear His voice.
My experience is that is not a good idea. I do not use the words, Spiritual Abuse. Most do not know what that means. I occasionally say I've had a bad church experience and wait for questions as to what that was all about. Rarely do I have to go any further. Most do not want to hear of a negative church experience. They all want to stay on the positive side. Can't blame them. Dealing with the reality of things wrong in churches is not a popular thing to discuss. You can easily become labelled as a negative influence and find yourself being marginalized. Try to use wisdom in talking to others about your past church experience. If possible, try to find those who will really listen before you say anything. Let God's Spirit guide you to those who will have His love to hear what you have to say. Be very cautious with who you share precious things with. He will guide you. Learn to hear His voice.
You're right, Reg. I wish I'd known these things you've posted before... But last fall, I was in such a horrible place. As an ex-Catholic, I believe I belong in church every Lord's Day, so I went, whether it was to the Messianic synagogue on Saturdays or to another church on Sundays. I was not doing well last fall... and then the horrible incident happened in February which was mostly caused by the excommunication incident of last Oct. 18. I probably shouldn't have gone to church, any congregation, until I could "keep it together" without talking to anyone about it, but then, that would have been months. Still, the point remains that I'm still technically a member of the church from which I was tossed and if I want to join another of the same doctrinal teachings, they'd necessarily ask whether I'm a "member in good standing" in that church and if I could get a "letter of transfer" from it. Well, no, I'm not, because Pastor threw me out, and there's no way I could get a letter of transfer. Also, some of these churches have closed communions and you have to interview with Session before you can participate in the Lord's Supper (the "Aruchat Adonai" in the Messianic synagogue, but that's an open communion).
Whatever. I've got one foot in and one foot outside the Body of Christ, it still seems to me...
Thanks so much, Reg.
mary
Jerry
09-13-2006, 10:23 AM
Whatever. I've got one foot in and one foot outside the Body of Christ, it still seems to me...
Thanks so much, Reg.
mary
Dear Mary,,,,
Did you really think I would let that go by ????? There is but "ONE" authority that decides if you are in the body of Christ,,,,,,and it sure isn't any "Church",,,,,,,,,it's "YOU",,,,,,,,,,,,,,John 3/16......Sweetie,,,,you come to my house,,,,I'll serve you Communion ;) The "Communion" those idiots are serving is invalid anyway :mad:
Love Jerry
beginagainrose
09-13-2006, 11:29 AM
This is such a great thread! Went camping for 3 days and almost missed this... I think that the public perception is one thing and the private truth of the epidemic of SA is another. You dont know the epidemic is bad until you are the one infected. Or, perhaps the more frightening possibility; you know, you just dont care. Life is good for you!...When I stood on a public sidewalk to warn and inform others at my church of over 4,000... EVERY TIME, the answer was why would pastor do that to you? I cant believe that! I don't understand...THEN the last was always, oh, well, he has ALways been wonderful to me!...and off they would go for more "panicea" (sp?) Every man for himself... until... then it's a different story. The greatest irony in my story... after we spoke to about 7 dozen people in two Sundays... they still gave $4.6M for a new building! LOVERS of self, indeed!
Dear Mary,,,,
Did you really think I would let that go by ????? There is but "ONE" authority that decides if you are in the body of Christ,,,,,,and it sure isn't any "Church",,,,,,,,,it's "YOU",,,,,,,,,,,,,,John 3/16......Sweetie,,,,you come to my house,,,,I'll serve you Communion ;) The "Communion" those idiots are serving is invalid anyway :mad:
Love Jerry
Awww, thanks, Jerry! You're such a sweet guy!!! :D :) (Gee, I hope I didn't blow your cover here, what with your new responsibilities and all! ;) :rolleyes: )
Love,
mary
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