A Cautionary Tale

[beginagainrose]

As a fairly new "newbie", I have desired to listen here more than to speak. I have avoided the "debates" as I came here to encourage "to love and good deeds" as my goal. I have been prayerful with each thread or reply and this one is no different. With the two "shepherd" stories circulating in the news, many have rejoiced, including me, at the "come-up-ance" of these two men. Now, one being an obvious cult leader, it's easy to celebrate his capture. The other, for many of us, perhaps all of us, it's even easier. He should have known better; done better. He is supose to be a Christian.:mad: Well, the Lord has been dealing with me about this man; even about my own "butchers". Forgive the wordiness here... I need to preface my point. Many of you are aware of my mother's affair with her pastor; of her husband's commitment to stay until I turned 18 and of my father's (the pastor) sexual abuse of me at about 3 and rape of me @ 9. My dad that raised me (my mother's husband), didnt know about the abuse until the last few years of his life. A couple of yrs after I found my father, I confronted him about his abuse of me and my mom and dad's lives. He told he that God forgave him and pretty much ended contact w/me. My dad decided he was going to go after him and kill him. My dad had been dianosed with cancer and made up his mind that my father's rejection of my forgiveness was the last straw. My dad was going to go to my father and "take him out". Within DAYS after intervening prayer, my dad's cancer suddenly spread wildly through his body and he was bedridden. Two months later, I called my father and told him that I knew my dad was saved and going to heaven, but I didnt want him to die with such bitterness, hatred and unforgiveness on his heart. I told my father, that I didnt want money or anything else; I wanted him to call my dad and genuinely seek his forgiveness for "raping his marriage" as my dad had called it for years. He did. It was very hostile from my dad's end of the conversation for the first part of it (30 min?). They talked for over 3 hrs. They had been best friends when my father betrayed his vow as a pastor and my dad's friendship (he was the head elder). I heard my dad forgive my father and they prayed together and laughed together. It had been over 40 years! Four months later, my dad was near death and with very little voice left, he called me to his bedside. He grabbed my shirt and pulled me close to him in great desparation. He had just heard about my SA from my pastor's & what it had done to me especially re: my husband's (and best friend) adultery. (see thread: Sheep Matter to God Part 1&2) I told him I was going to write my book about Ezekiel 34 Shepherding, and while he was barely able to speak or even weep, he said, "go tell them I didn't do it God's way".... I believe the Lord has reminded me in this "recovery room" since I've been here, that while this is a place to cry, rant, wail and pontificate; we are still called by Him to walk in a manner worthy of our calling before each other; but esp Him. Our language, our attitudes and views should be moving us forward to a place of forgiveness. I am not saying we do not hold them accountable; or rejoice when others do, but I am reminded that staying in a place of bitterness and unforgiveness in not where the Lord wants us to camp. I know my greatest test will be seeing my enemies face to face; I am sure there will come a day. I know I cared enough about them and others to do what I did to call them to account. How God ultimately deals with them is His job. Justice is not a legal term, it is a theological one. Our ultimate goal - God's ultimate goal - is that we would forgive them. Not as a bandaid or shortcut from grief; not with wax lips and platitudes of "Christianease" but, if I am understanding what the Lord has been dealing with me about; that from deep within our own hearts, we let them off our hooks - knowing they are not off God's. I believe that was what my dad meant by "not doing it God's way". You are the first people I have had the chance to pass along his message to... I pray you understand... and listen...and ask the Lord to show you what that looks like. For me, it is the retreat for fallen shepherds and sheep. How can we use what has happened to the glory of God?

[Jerry]

Dear Rose,,,,
That post is a "keeper" ;) Thank you.
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Wow Beginagainrose! I agree with your views and marvel at your strength. Glory to God! :)

[Carmen]

(((((beginagainrose))))), dearie, I read your earlier posts, was gone as they were written. I must marvel even more at your courage and resilience after such abuse and double abuse, that you can think of giving God glory after such events. I can only be in awe of what God has done for you, with you and in you.

[beginagainrose]

Thank you, dear ones for the response:) ... all two of you;) did I hit or miss?-- the silence makes me wonder;) ;) :confused: :(

[Willow]

dear rose... what you said is true. in the end... letting go is the only way to survive the abuses of this world. the process of letting go can get complicated. completely realizing, feeling, understanding, processing, what happened can sometimes take years. in your dad's case... it followed him to his deathbed. however... he did let go...

I'm astounded at your ability to let go.

[beginagainrose]

Wow, Willow... thanks:) You know, it really isnt me at all... It is just that God has been soooo faithful to bring me through this deluge of a storm and He has given me so many reasons to trust Him with unwavering chesed (unfailing love). But what more proof do I need than the Cross of Christ? The other part that has been so crucial for me is my fervent belief that our pain always has a purpose for The Kingdom. I trust Him for that purpose and know this is another "tool" like any other loss, betrayl or grief. He will use it or it wouldn't have been allowed. Like Job. We can all marvel at how much God loves us and see what has happened to us as part of God's confidence in us to bear such pain, just like He trusted His Son to bear His. You know why I believe my dad finally let go? He FINALLY saw purpose to his suffering; when he saw what had happened to me... he finally understood - as last. I cannot tell you the joy of being able to help him in the last two weeks of his life when he had sacraficed soooo much for me in his life. You know, one of the sweetest things after that day?.... I brought an old hymnal and sang all the old standard songs that brought him through his life. His favorite was "Everlasting Arms". Just a few days before he died, as I was singing, he was laying there and ever so slightly lifted his hand to heaven just over his face. As his hand shook very badly from such effort, a single tear ran down the side of his face, yet with the biggest grin. Tears are the messengers of the soul!... I knew he truly had forgiven my mother and my father...Mission accomplished:)

[Jo Jo]

I think you are fabulously brave and understand the secret of forgiveness and the power that has in lives. That truly is the cross of Christ. It amazes me everything that you have gone through and suffered and how you seek to walk closely to God and turn things into goodness for Him. :)

[beginagainrose]

Whhhheeewwww, Jo Jo... now ya went and made me cry...all glory to our magnificant Father and Lord!!! I am overcome with pure joy and the blessing this site is to my life in such a sort time and I am BEyond grateful for the encouragement, support and generosity of love. God Bless you bunchies and gobbers:) *sniff,sniff*:)

[hornblower]

Beginagain........Im not sure if I completely agree or not.
Ill tell you what Im concerned about......
Being a victim most of my life forgiveness comes rather more easily to me. I see it this way..I fogive Im forgiven.........fair trade because I have done two things in my life that are unforgivable in my book so if I can get forgiveness by forgiving these people then so be it! They are free in my book......go, be happy, be rich, do a life (whats that?)that Im sure ill never know.
Ill leave the rest of it up to God to handle He knows much more than I do. Whats in their hearts and minds what caused them to be and do what they did. I can do all of that...........
but
The thought keeps coming to me though that it is all too easy for me to do this since I am so very used to doing it. Over and over again. One abusive situation after another?
Can it be that God might want to teach me something? Can it be that I need to get angry and say it for once? Can it be that God might want me to learn to stay away from these types of people?
There is a way where forgiveness becomes just another way to let things slide and not stand up to these horrid people that take continuous advantage of people like me who always dont seem to get it? I will say for the record I really dont get it at all, never have! Ive never understood why some people just dont seem to care, dont seem to respect other peoples boundaries and dont let people be free. They seem bent on being in control of others. The worst control of all is rape and thats what that one man did that pastor here.

I know inside that I have forgiven whether it sounds like it or not. I can forgive and never set sight on the people that did what they did to me again stay clear away from them and learn why it happened to me in the first place.

Other people tell me, other so called do goodey christians that I have not trully forgiven. Forgive all of these poor slobs that rape and pillage, that forgiveness is this or that. Well it doesnt really matter what our opinions are about forgiveness, God knows us He knows our hearts and He is in control of what happens to us as far as He can be, but we also need to be in control of ourselves and learn from each other about abuse and what it does to us and to others. To my way of thinking we need to stand a lot taller.
Im just speaking for myself alone here. I think I forgive to quickly too often and I think I may be using it in some way to get myself out of the harder task of sticking up for myself and be a stronger person.
If you feel God has spoken to you about these pastors then so be it but he hasnt spoken to me about them.
That one here in Arlington raped those poor women. It doesnt matter if i forgive him or not..............Thats up to God. I personally think he is worse than rotten garbage in the human department. I spit on him and his church!

[Jerry]

Dear Hornblower,,,
Christ said ,,,,,,,turn the other cheek,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he didn't say don't duck ;) I agree with you..........Forgiveness and Reconciliation are two different things .......
Love Jerry
P.S. I can forgive a guy who works for me for steeling,,,,,,,,,,,,but I would be stupid to make him "Head of Accounting"

[hornblower]

Dear Hornblower,,,
Christ said ,,,,,,,turn the other cheek,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he didn't say don't duck ;) I agree with you..........Forgiveness and Reconciliation are two different things .......
Love Jerry
P.S. I can forgive a guy who works for me for steeling,,,,,,,,,,,,but I would be stupid to make him "Head of Accounting"
Thanks Jerry I hope this doesnt cause a problem here I didnt mean to sound so angry but especially in the particular case of sexual abuse I think its very seductive how women can let it go so easily. Im sure its the same with men. I think this kind of abuse is the worst there is and it scars us forever at least until the Lord can get us to heaven to completely heal it.
For instance this court case...............of you know who? So he maybe gets the seven years?

I know its fifteen but it will probably end up being seven and a half. Is such a thing really fair? The first victim that spoke out to him at his trial said to him you were my first church, my first pastor, you baptised me and you took away my virginity! I dont believe in God anymore because of you!
This guy knocked these women out and then his church treats them like they did something to him?
Give me a break? Would somebody please just give me a break here?
Listen nobody knows more than I do well I take that back Im sure half of the women in the world know just as much as I do about these kinds of things.........some body needs to say ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even womens lib is really not on our sides. Im serious. Here they are telling us go to work and then youll be free? Yeah free to do what? Send our children to the same h*** hole we were in?
This other guy his own daughter supposedly hunted down women that ran away to murder them. Oh yeah now theres a winner for you, hes all full of light!

I have never ever said this scripture before or used it for myself in any way because its so misused but....................maybe there is a use for that scripture of righteous indignation!

I guess what Im saying is its one thing to forgive them and let God take over the spiritual punishment but its another thing when a person commits a crime and doing something to a little girl thats a crimninal act. Heck doing anything like rape is a criminal act and it should be punished by the law fully.
We should be plenty mad about it and we should definitely tell and as far as a father getting away with asking for forgiveness from God...............so what? Whats that got to do with him getting punished for what he did? It would be doubley stupid for us to do it but the law should.
If I as a parent do something like that to my child and Im a spiritual leader in a church and after Ive done the deed I go to God and ask Him to forgive me...............do we really believe its over with just that?
No Im sorry I dont believe it is.
Children dont ever blame the parent, they never blame the adult, thats the way of being an innocent child.

Id better shut up and leave it at that, its not any of my business except for the way it directly applies to me and it does in a lot of ways so Im putting my two cents in here.
They can go ask for forgiveness all they want too I dont care what they do I still think there is a punishment for sin. Sorry. I do. I know when I do something wrong I sure pay for it.............one way or another i pay for it.

[Willow]

Good points hornblower and Jerry!

[beginagainrose]

Precious Hornblower... thank you for taking the time to share your heart with me... I hear you. There is alot in your two posts but let me try to honor you and your comments the best I can.

First, if I recall correctly, you have read my initial posts telling my own story; but for some who may not have that are listening to this thread, pls allow me to repeat myself (briefly!) here that you are talking to a woman who was coerced into copulating my father and mother at just under 3 and being raped by my father-- (the pastor - not my "dad" that raised me - who died of cancer, as stated in another thread of mine). So, like each of us here, I have "earned my right to be heard" in this recovery room. And it is that... a place to recover. We have all come here in various degrees of woundedness - I certainly am no exception. I acknowledge that "letting the pasturds 'off the hook' is B.S." in our minds...but God is after transformed minds and HEALED hearts... if I may continue to frank here for the purpose of making my point. I would refer you back to my original post... I TOO was rejoicing about "the Arlington" thing... and God came along side to speak to my heart - not in angry condemnation... and I do not come to you to respond that way either...

Dear one... this room is for us to vent, wail and pontificate our emotions and opinions - I am so grateful for that.... but I refer you back to my statement again... " I am not saying dont hold them accountable... I am not saying forgive as a bandaid (a way to sidestep, cover up or avoid) or a short-cut from grief"... let me also add here, again, for the purpose of clarity - NOR to avoid any accountability! I thought I made that clear.

Yet, we are the one who "rate sin" - you have only done 2 things in your life to be forgiven for? Wow... you're a better one than me, Charlie Brown! By God's yardstick... my sins are countless. I believe the point the Lord was so gently reminding me of is that "all have sinned" - there is no big or little with Him. I beleive He was reminding me that "this is the stuff (Arlington, my story, your story, etc).. is ALL the stuff Jesus died for. We need grace, yet, so often, when it is the other guy who sins against us or someone we love dearly, we DEmand JUSTICE - JUDGEment (lightening bolts and all:mad: ). The Lord DOES want us to hold them accountable - but HE chooses the consequences. Going to court taught me that. I did my part in holding them accountable - even my father (I wrote a 7 page letter, told the truth to his sons WHEN they came to me over a year later and ASKED - I did NOT "out" him). Yet, with the court case, WHEN it was upheld? God came to me DAYS later and essentially said, "ok, now... it is finished... lay it down (my rights/agenda-yes, justice, baby!) drop it". But He also made it clear it was "finished" but not OVER. He had accomplished His plan in my taking them to court (like the 3 women in TX) But then He asked me to trust Him about what HE was going to do next. HE wanted to choose their consequences HIS way NOT mine. It was one of the hardest things He had ever asked me to do... EXCEPT forgive them. But understand, God is still using me to bring consequence - He has made it clear I AM to write the book my pastor so dreaded that he came after me; now it will be even worse for his own behavior by HIS own choices. The last chapter has not been written in my case... BUT... for the sake of clarity, let me finish with this... I believe there is a very DEtermined time set by God (FOR MY SAKE) when He came to me and said in effect "the pain and anger must be surrendered to Me; you cannot go forward in your healing or My purpose with your "heart condition" in this state; I have a plan for you and your suffering this UNfair abuse (sexual, spiritual, emotional...) but your heart is in grave danger... of turning from grieved to bitter callous (bitter: hard, harsh, sharp and piercing!)... you MUST let them off your hook. KNOW they are not off Mine". If not, I KNEW I would be "stuck" in my grief (review the steps here?) and would not move BEyond it to God's SOVREIGN, destined purpose - not just for what happened at that church but ALL of my life - I have come too far; been thru too much to let that happen; let my greatest enemy win that victory!!! There are some steps to emotional healing and spiritual growth (another time-another thread perhaps that God taught me Himself years ago - and they have worked for me and others I've shared) and the FIRST is acknowledgement of pain... but after years of "unzipping and pucking" on others with little or no relief or progress, He invited me to pour out my heart to Him... first step I said. We cannot heal without acknowledgement. I do NOT believe any PERSON will every possess the ability to give me the acknowledgement I need. Only God can...and He does-HAS! Forgiveness is more for our sakes, healing and recovery - not theirs... it is NOT saying "ok, what you did is forgotton" it is saying "what you did has been surrendered to God"... I would only add... it is STILL a terrifying thing to fall into the Hands of The Living God. As I said here a few days ago... God keeps the score...and settles it. Hope this helps... I will be praying so.

[hornblower]

acknowledgement I need. Only God can...and He does-HAS! Forgiveness is more for our sakes, healing and recovery - not theirs... it is NOT saying "ok, what you did is forgotton" it is saying "what you did has been surrendered to God"... I would only add... it is STILL a terrifying thing to fall into the Hands of The Living God. As I said here a few days ago... God keeps the score...and settles it. Hope this helps... I will be praying so.[/QUOTE]

Ok Im confused and I think Im misunderstanding.............are you saying you took your Father to court fdor what he did to you which is the rape thing? Because this is what I would hope for my dearest beginagain. I uphold you completely anadf always will to fogive and to do whatever makes you heal thats between you and thee.
Please understand me here Im writing about me beginagain and my experiences with all of this junk this sexual abuse and spiritual abuse. In a lot of ways you have been so much more abused than i but then who can measure these things? You know whats best for yourself I know that and I will always uphold you to do that here and everywhere. Let me be blunt here. I cannot help but hate your Father for doing this to you. Im sorry I do thats just that.
I dont want to go into my own story here for a lot of reasons mostly my Dad is dead and im mourning him maybe always will. I dont want to talk about it.

I cant help it I hate your Dad for what he did. I know youll probably not like me for this and be mad at me too but I also hate your husband for what he did to you.
So I am a sinner for hating so God can deal with me I guess I will let Him but right now I hate these men.
I just got off of the phone with my daughter and for the first time was telling her that the boy that almost murdered her has never been sent to prison for what he did to her nor what he did to the other little girl whom he murdered and the young man he murdered in the mental hospital. This guy as far as I know is out right now wondering the streets.
The very night this happened to my daughter I was told to forgive this young man that did it to her. Told I HAD to do it for God would be upset with me if I didnt. I didnt want to do it but then I did I prayed it out and I had peace..............that night.

I sure dont have peace now. So I guess that makes me a bad person right? Of course I have a ton of sins, everyday I have them but what I meant was these two sins in my past I cannot even fathom being forgiven for. Its hard to communicate what I am trying to say to you beginagian except to say once again..........I think us sexually abused raped little girls do not really see what forgiveness is the way God wants us too. I dont know you. I cant see you you know that so I cant judge this for you but as for myself all I am saying here is that I do think sometimes we dont really see forgiveness the right way. Like everything in the spiritual realm forgiveness I think is spiritually led. When it works its for us not them and you have experienced that I believe so have I.

Im not the enemy believe me. I guess what I am is forever hurt for you and others who have been so abused and so victimised that I just stay so mad I can barely think or do anything.
In order for you to understand how I am feeling about this..........place yourself in my shoes...............what if all of this happened to your daughter???????
I am mad really mad maybe thirty years late but Im finally mad and it may last awhile. I forgave too and I know you said all of that stuff about accountability but for me..........
Im still just so mad!

Ok maybe this will really do it here for me I dont care if it does but right now I dont care if God ever forgives me for being that mad........... I am that mad at your father and every ...................there arent words for these men...............that ever touched a woman or a little girl or any child or anyone innocent and undeserving of any of this hideous stuff that they did.
This is what set me off begin again is whehn you said he said to you that he asked God to forgive him for what he did to you and he had that forgiveness........and then your stepdad rightfully so wanted to go murder him I dont blame him at all not one bit and then he called your stepdad and then they evntually started laughing together on the phone.
If im not understanding this then enlighten me.
If you went to court to get your father in trouble for whqat he did to you that helps me so much to know that for you but other than that? Im mad at him. I dont blame you How could I blemae you for anything at all? You were a little child! Just like my daughter was a little girl and she wasnt raped please dont anyone misunderstand this but who knows what all that guy did to her.............something unbelievable thats for sure........because its ruined her life and ours, all of us constantly live with this nitemare!

Beginagain imagine this.............Ive been living with depression for so long its unbelievable but now that anger is coming out of me.
Forgiveness and the misunderstanding of it stops us up! Thats all I am saying. Im saying this just for msyelf not you. You are healed good but I am not and I may never be. Please dont tell me to forgive!
I have forgiven and I have had God forgive for me I have experienced it all but here i am telling you Im mad! I am just so angry at these rotten no good men!!!!!!!
Im mad for you and what he did to you!
Please dont try to teach me. Ive heard all of it before..........now I need this anger.

[hornblower]

My post was way too long beginagain so I had to shorten the reply and I cut out some of your quote (the other longer than long reply)

anyway just forget about me and mine.
I do

just pay me no mind at all I will never be worth anything never have been never will be.
I cannot have friends of any kind on here or anywhere.

I dont care if I puke on anyone any more.

Just pretend I didnt post here.

[beginagainrose]

Again, precious Hornblower.... I am honored that you have been so transparent and shared your heart. Be where you are. I do not condem you. I am here to seek greater healing and encouragment by, hopelfully, encouraging others. I do many things well, but, pretending is not one of them:) So, I cannot pretend you dont exist. Again, please bear with me as I try to respond...

First, let me try to clear up the confusion... I went to court against my church and my pastors - they set my husband up to do what he did - I own that he chose. Shepherds are in covenant w/God to govern and guide... but also to GUARD (not set snares for the wounded to fall into the pit of their (well known) weaknesses! Pls go back and read or re-read my story (Sheep Matter to God Pt 1&2).

As for hatred?... It has a price tag I cannot afford to pay! I will be honest; I had dreams of revenge that were violent, bloody and so scary, I ran right to Jesus... but you know what I learned? At the foot of The Cross there is NOTHING that cannot be forgiven. Bitterness only eats the container from the inside out. Like acid. God is the one who set the standard about forgiveness; not me. If I reject it or, refuse to take the step when God knows full well I am ready? (it is then an issue of trust and obey) then I am left with myself to wander in the wilderness of hatred, regret, bitterness, etc. I saw my dad (step-dad for your understanding) do that with my father (the pastor) and my mother. I cannot imagine not learning those lessons! I want to cross over the river of grief into the Promised Land of Destiny and Purpose to see my life used to help others; including repentant pastors, so the cycle might be broken or at least deminished! I want my pain, my abuse and my LIFE to count... for THE Kingdom! For Jesus! For what He did for me! It is never too late, Hornblower! I will not give up on you. I plead with you, for your sake and your daughter and the murdered child in your story...DO NOT GIVE UP. I used to tell one man, "I will NEVER get over this!" He rebuked me and said, "Stop saying that! You need to declare: I WILL GET OVER THIS AND LET GOD GET SOME GLORY OUT OF THIS MESS NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!"... you know what?... I am seeing that for this first time in 9 years right here in this recovery room...and my book isn't even finished yet, my retreat isnt even opened yet... do you see... there is a HARVEST OF FRUIT just waiting for me in changed hearts, saved souls, and restored lives....IF I will do this God's way!... and yes, Hornblower, it is loving AND forgiving even my enemies... it is taking up my cross. Well, I am loving my enemies enough to expose them to bring some accountability to them; writing my book so people will see that my forgiving them brought a bounty of blessing into my life - testimony, etc. and, I might say... I am confident of this one thing... God is not finished with them - HE is dealing and will continue to deal with them. (Some BIG things have just happend between me and them over the weekend that I cannot share about yet - too soon-stay tuned:) ) Let me end with this...You may be a Hornblower in your eyes?... but to Jesus... YOU are a Holy, Golden Shofar that will be used to lift up a war cry against the abused and declare the presence of God to manifest Holy Healing of Hurt and Hardened Hearts!... if you will let him... and pay the price.:) I am praying for you dear one...go forward... press on... it came to pass; it didn't come to stay.

[hornblower]

the way I am feeling tonight I dont see it begin again. My daughter is being sued for something she didnt do. She has ultimate faith, she glows with it...........her dog supposedly bit a girl who was inside of her own yard, in actuality he jumped up on her and scratched her.
My daughter is like a mentally retarded child.
Things happen to her everyday. People make fun of her, stare at her. Im sorry I cant live with it its killing me. Whats really killing me is that God lets it continue and for what reason?
These so called christians have told me all that you are now saying and more trying to make me see this or that.............ultimately whats really going on here is that people dont want to believe that bad stuff happens to people that are trying to be as good as possible, not saying that Im good but I at least used to try. Now whats the use? They say Im at fault so maybe I am who knows nobody but God knows. Im finished.
I still hate your father.

[beginagainrose]

Life is choices, dear one. We will all live with ours.... for eternity. Hell will not be the same for everyone... neither will heaven. We make choices based on this life or the next. Eternity is along time.:)