Finding my identity again...

[outcast]

I don't know if there is another thread already like this or not. Since I left the cult I realized that I don't even feel like I know who I am as a person or a Christian anymore. I have briefly shared this on my story thread, but my point in sharing here is to specifically address some issues I'm having and ask for input from fellow members.

The word of God. Personally, I still respect it, but I don't read it much on my own anymore. Sporadically at best. Usually, I have absolutely NO desire to read it at all. Likely b/c I was made to feel in my old church like I had to read so much of it per day to please God. Now I just read it if there is a certain topic I want to study or if a person asks me a question. More the former than the latter as I try to stay away from spiritual subjects where I can. I really don't want to influence someone else's thinking about God and program them the way I was programmed. Usually, my response to spiritual questions is to say "these are the tools I would use to study a topic..." and that's it. I refuse to be someone's spiritual cliffnotes.

Prayer... that's a biggie. Mostly prayer for me consists of saying "God help me." Honestly, I don't know what else to say. I don't pray regularly anymore and I rarely pray in tongues as my old church had taught me to do. We were expected to attend 1-2 hr prayer meetings once to twice a week b/c the church was always "under attack." I did some research later on these sorts of meetings where psychologists claimed that praying in tongues or chanting for extending periods of time put people in an altered/suggestive state. I thought that was interesting and quite likely the case in my situation. I don't know if they realized that was what they were doing, but it certainly worked to their advantage.


I guess my main question is, has anyone else felt this way upon leaving an abusive church? I feel so bad for not wanting to do these things anymore. Sometimes I feel like I'm barely a Christian at all. I know doing these things doesn't make you one, but I feel bad that the desire isn't there. For those who have felt like this, how long did it last for you?

I know I will heal at my own pace and that I need to be patient. But, I don't feel like I have much hope right now of this ever getting better. I feel like a part of me has died. I feel ashamed that I feel so weak. Any insight here is much appreciated.

[dougjb]

Hi outcast,
I had my computer one time go absolutely crazy. I would hit a letter on the key board and another letter would show up on the monitor and every key was like that. What I did was shut the computer down [re-boot] and started it again and everything was fine. I have had times where I had to do about the same thing in my spiritual life. Things got so crazy that I just had to stop for awhile and re-boot my life.
It does not sound like you dislike the bible or prayer but its identification with your past.[hope that sound right] It says in the bible that God's mercies are new every morning. This might an opportunity for you, a blessing in disguise, a breaking away from what other people desire to make you and have a new beginning of knowing who you are as a person and as a Christian.
From personal experience I have done some spiritual re-booting and it has always ended up being a blessing.

Some food for thought
Dougjb

[profnachos]

You are describing the post cult state very well. Because you were brainwashed to believe that spirituality was found only in the system, you are to automatically assume that there is little or no spirituality now that you are outside the system.

I felt the same. I still feel the same way.

[hornblower]

Most definitely I feel this way. I think a good bit of it is that I dont know what Im supposed to be doing? I used to always have an agenda. I went to charismatic churches where I had this spiritual abuse happen to me but they must not have been as bad as some of the people on here expoeerienced because I wasn't 'made' to do anything.................?
Maybe itr was implied but it surely was never ever imposed on anyone that I knew. So Im thankful for that. However I put this stuff on myself.
I still do feel this way about reading the word. I know I do better if I read it. I just do! But I dont do it. I have never been a disciplined person. I work hard and I have ethics so Im not a lazy person I dont think anyway. But< I dont have a set time to do this or that and in those churches especially when I was like on the team so to speak I felt like a failure because I didnt do things the way other people did. Now I see this IS MY problem not a problem of the church I was going too.
Its a 'people' problem. One Ive had all of my life im not going to blame it on the church at all. One reason is it doesnt help me get any better I dont think anyway.

I started reading the bible on my own. Nobody told me too I did it when I got filled with the spirit and nobody did that to me either. I was all alone when it happened I didnt go to church at all.
I read because, and this is the only reason, the bible says that Jesus is the WORD. I take this to mean that Jesus is Gods communication to us. God has always tried to talk to us but we dont listen and we cannot 'hear' Him speaking to us.

Im just being honest here and you dont have to lisetne to me if you dont want too. I dont and Ive never felt like I "had" to 'preach' to anybody. I believe I share myself with others. If they dont like what I am saying I cannot help that because im just being myself and I cant very well be anyone else. It hurts me when I talk about Jesus and people hate Him or dont want to believe in Him but thats the way it is so I struggle with it Im sure just the way Jesus did. I dont think He ever wanted to shove anything sdwon anybodies throat ever. He loved them and He spoke what was on His mind. He was honest with them and with me.

I still speak in tongues and I still dont understand it any more than I did when I started speaking in tongues. Its never made me "feel" anything at all? Nothing. I dont see where it says we are supposed to 'feel' anything.
I quite frankly dont care a hoot for what pschologists think about anything.
Ive been put upon by them too. They arent God after all.

Im sorry that the church you went too did these things but heres the thing..........did you HAVE to do them?
The churches I went tool spoke in tongues for long periods of time when they were in prayer sessions. I listen to my little inner voice on these churchified things they are doing..............this is what my little inside voice said to me at the time.

"What part of this is in the bible??????????" Well it does say to "I wish you all spoke in tongues as much as I do" Paul said that. But was this what he meant when he said that? I dont think so. If you read it in its meaning he is simply saying hey I speak in tongues too you guys so dont think you are so special? Thats what I think he means.

He doesnt mean now lets speak in tongues for three hours untill we are completely hoarse and then God will give us what we want and protect us from the enemy (???????) nothing bad will happen to us any more. This building will get paid for?????????????? Haha Paul didnt have a building! Or we can all take a vacation in Hawaaii so you get my meaning?

To me these things take some common sense which I personally think God has tons of and churches would do well to get with the picture.
I speak in tongues the way it says too as best as I understand it. I do it when I dont know how to pray for something. Or sometimes just because im so weary and i dont know what to say anymore to God........like you my prayers are so often just HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP me Lord?????
To me thats the perfect time according to what is written about it.

As for those special feelings you get in church? Heres what I think. I think we should get them at home too when we are alone with Him and if we dont? We need to start seeking Him again.
Im not saying this like you are alone in your feelings I am right here with you strugglin g with the same things its just that Ill bet you I am older than you are so Ive been going through it for years and years.

Heres what Ive learned coming here. Churches are just people. People unfortuantely run churches instead of God. God does not live in buildings made with hands He says so! That doesnt mean that He isnt in church it just means He elsewhere too. You dont have to go to church to experience Him. However being with another group of believers helps if they are worshipping Him in spirit and truth. Thats not so easy to find always.

But the point being that we should experience god and God things outside of church too. I personally think something is very wrong if we dont.

I think we here are all hurt. God hurts my friend. This is God too to come here and share your experiences. It may not give you the willies but sometimes maybe it can?
God is love and compassion He is NOT a set of rules. If I buy into following a rule because everybody else is..............thats NOT GOD!
Its hard to be alone and stand up for what you believe in. But He did so we should too. This is the most important reason I read the bible when I do and I dont all of the time nobody has too to be a lover of God. I read it to see if other christians experienced this same thing and guess what they all did.
Jesus was put to death by His church.

I read it to straighten out my mind which gets filled up with all kinds of crap. Sometimes just the thought of turning a page nauseates me.
I personally think that this happens because religion makes me sick at my stomach.
The word says that perfect religion in the eyes of God is visiting orphans and widows in their distress.
Thats who we all are in my book. We are orphans and we are all distressed over what has happened to us.

[mary]

Outcast, I echo Profnachos...

It's been nearly 9 months since I was thrown out of "the cult." I felt the same way you do, but I've had a revelation in the last few weeks or so. (I felt as though I was the only one who was wrong, that I did something horrible and I was the one who "needed" to be run out of the fellowship.) My revelation was: The Emperor ("pastor") really does have no clothes! :D He's a walking, talking, four-alarm, flaming horse's backside and the only people who don't think so are the 23 or so members left in "the cult," the morons in the presbytery here and the Eurosleaze that comprise the denomination's hierarchy "across the pond." That's it!

What has helped? Reading the Bible every day, several times a day when I can manage it. Over and over. Jeremiah 23. Ezekiel 34. 2 Timothy 3. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. All of the many other passages dealing with false shepherds, false pastors, those who seem to be our "brothers and sisters in Christ" but who really aren't. More helpful than those, though, are others that state who we are in Christ, we who are blessed by His eternal fellowship, both here and when we leave this unGodly planet... Romans 8; John 16-17; Romans 5:1; 1 Corinthians 15; Revelation 21:4; Psalm 56; Psalm 1... I could go on and on, Outcast, but I just wanted to encourage you that your help will come from God! How can we tap into that help? By reading His love letter to us, His Word... John 1! First John... Just read and pray and if all you can pray is "Help, Lord!" then that's what He'll listen to and answer. That's His promise to us...

Cults just plain stink. It's the Lord reaching down and blessing us when He takes us out of one, no matter what method He uses to do it. (In my case, "pastor" told me that I was "forever beyond forgiveness and reconciliation" as far as he was concerned and that I would not be welcome back at that church. I was hurt beyond description by that - but now I see it as a blessing beyond measure.)

mary

[Reg]

Hi Outcast,

Personally, I feel it's normal for us to feel that way after what we've been through. God understands. He said He will never leave us or forsake us. I like the reboot answer from dougb. :)

It's something like that. We need to clear the old memory tapes and start fresh. As long as you know there's a Father God who gave us His Son as a sacrifice to restore our relationship with Him, then you have just about all you need. Gradually, you can go to Him to ask to be restored with a new sense of closeness. Forget about all the do's and dont's you were told before. Jesus didn't come to make bad people good. He came to make dead people alive.

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As long as you know why He came, then try to rebuild your relationship with Him based on GRACE. You don't have to DO anything. Jesus DID all that was necessary so that we could have a right relationship with Him and The Father. Religion is spelled DO. Christianity based on a correct understanding of GRACE is spelled DONE!

Hope this helps.

Here is a thread link to just what you are talking about. "Who Am I?" http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2471&highlight=non-confrontational

[outcast]

Thanks so much Reg and others for the encouragement, scriptures and sharing your own experiences. :)

[Hope 98]

I just want to throw out a "ditto"

You've described your feelings very well and I surely recognize what you're going through.
I've been there too

[Jerry]

I feel like a part of me has died. .

Yup,a part of you has died,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the part you didn't need ;)
Love Jerry

[outcast]

True Jerry, very true.

I just read Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 34. I didn't even know the Bible discussed this topic. Of course I didn't really search for it before either. Anyway, those two chapters made me cry b/c they gave me hope that I won't feel this way forever. Thank you again, Mary, for sharing them.

[hornblower]

Isnt it remarkable, or well maybe its not at all, but I was going to say that these scriptures are never even read in church? You know what Ive always seen that too? The pastor would be teaching all around the scriptures about how they tie up these heavy loads to put on your backs but they dont lift one little finger to help you with any of it!

I always read more. I read up and the downs and the all arounds when theyd be going on and on. So much that they would preach on was not even a little bit true.

I have some really funny stories about that second church I was in. When I got so beat down I was nearly half dead............everyone was going up by that time everybody was having words from the Lord it was so cool. They had to put the microphone down on the floor to keep me from going up to the podium. Of course the words i always gotr from God were concerning inner healing and grace and Gods love for us no matter what.........to be honest and not scared any more that God loves us. Just real encouraging stuff you know?
So then everybody was sharing what they heard the way its supposed to be.

So there he was trying to hear from God. I dont know he had a puzzled look on his face. I was scared again I had had another vision and it was the same one I was always having about a fat lady and here I am not as fat as I am now but definitely overweight. Not thin anyway. So I was urged (inside of myself)to go and scared to go but I thought what the heck Im out of here anyway Im so messed up.

The vision was that there is a fat lady and she is crying and she is being led by a little girl by the hand to come along. So I go up and say this vision. I( really at that time had no idea what it meant but..........I had this deep feeling.
All of a sudden he bursts out of his chair and says thats it! Thats the word Im looking for! I got on the scales this morning and God told me He was going to tell me something about this wieght thing.

Then he said we all need to loose wieght thats what it is we all need to go on a diet.

Now maybe you think hes right but Im telling you Ive never seen how poor he was until that moment..........it was right then that I saw what God was saying to us.

He was telling us that all of this 'fatness' 'overspirituality' was making us miserable................when all God wanted us to be was His little children.

Nobody in that congregation could say a word. They knew he was wrong knew it as much as they knew their own name but nobody had the guts to say a word not even me.
You see we would have had to fight that fat lady if we had said anything and i for one was just too beat down for another battle.
Its all so sad.
Maybe there is hope somewhere.

[Jo Jo]

Oh my gosh, Outcast did we go to the same church?

Our weekly services were 3 1/2 to 4 hours long, but our worship was really long and that's how we became "pliable" to God. and then the words from God would start... and there were only 12 of us and we had two Prophets for 12 people and how many words is God going to have every week for that many people? A lot I guess, we really needed straightening up... well, some weeks we were really good, And there would be only positive words but the very next week we might be very bad. So God changed his mind a lot. UGH! But anyway, I can really relate! Then on Wednesdays there would be a 2 - 3 hour Bible Study which would be similar, but I stopped going to that right away, because I would have gone crazy, or maybe left a lot sooner. Anyway they are still over there doing that, but now there are only 10 people.

And wow Mary... that is exactly what my counselor said I did when I finally spoke up. I stood in the middle of those people and I said. "Hello... the Emperor has no clothes on" and that is when I got myself in a whole bunch of trouble and it was probably the best thing I did.

Anyway, it was just horrible when I first left, but it's been a year now and it gets better, but I still have really rough times. Sometimes it's hard because of the people I miss, but not so much that anymore. What's hard right now is the damage it did to my relationship to God. I don't read the Bible and pray. Just those quick prayers you are talking about. "Hi God". "Help me God" "What's going on now God?" Quick snatches of scripture here and there, Etc.... He moves me bit by bit. I know he loves me. I still love him. So that's better. There are close times with him. I don't see that I've gone backward but that life is a journey forward. but for some that would have known me... they would say I've lost my salt for sure. I used to be so on fire for God, but I will have to trust and hope in God. He will see it all to completion, eh?

[outcast]

I had a scripture come to mind today when I was thinking of how to define my own spirituality apart from religion and man's opinions. I think it's from Micah 6:8. "He has shown thee, o man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee. But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly before thy God." Funny, it doesn't say anything about prayer and compulsive church attendence...

[Jo Jo]

That is really good. Those are the kind of scriptures, that truth from GOD, that stills that storm inside.

Thanks for sharing that.

[outcast]

That is really good. Those are the kind of scriptures, that truth from GOD, that stills that storm inside.

Thanks for sharing that.


You're very welcome. Hugs to you, Jo Jo. I'm sorry to hear that your experience was so similar to mine. I pray we both find the peace/healing we need.

[Voyager]

Here's something I posted on this forum back in late 2002:

I've been reading a book called "Controlling People" by Patricia Evans. It talks about the psychological process that we go through that creates a triple dependency in us on the group/leader as we lose our own self identity and take on the identity of the group/leader. Here's an excerpt from it:

-------------------------------------

The Cult: A Triple Connection

The most highly organized, completely pretend world is that of a cult. The cult leader, the primary Controller, makes up everything relative to the meaning, purpose, and function of the cult, as well as to the members' lives. He/she has the final say in all decisions, even personal ones. In effect the leader becomes the members' "self".

As cultists become disconnected from themselves, they are coerced into connecting to a pretend self, the leader. In other words, as one's self is lost, the leader becomes it. In order to maintain a position of total control, the leader enforces strict conformity and often manipulates members into enforcing compliance among themselves.

The leader defines others: he or she "knows" who and what the others should be and what they should do, and rules like a God. Cultists eventually find inner self-direction to be almost impossible.

Like the interlocking pieces of a picture puzzle, the leader and the cult members fit together to form a complete picture. But this picture is not a visual one. It is instead a psychological one: a Control Connection of the greatest magnitude.

After a while, new cult candidates lose their self-connection in systematic conditioning. Not unlike severely abused children and people in severely abusive relationships, their communication is controlled or under rigid constraints. They are watched for signs of separateness and punished for them. They are relentlessly coerced to become Pretend People, designed to inhabit a pretend world imagined by their cult leader.

If cultists are successful, cult candidates will doubt themselves and open up to indoctrination. In fact, if their belief systems and personal realities are shattered, the cult, and particularly their leader, will seem to bring salvation. The cult reality, a newly fabricated belief system, then replaces personal reality. Cults are formed by this process. New members must be convinced of their "wrongs", so that their leader, and abuser of power, can "lead them to redemption" along prescribed lines of control.

Through indoctrination, brainwashing and ever-increasing pressure from members, cult candidates shift from tenuous self-connection to solid cult connection. They are finally triply connected: connected with each other, connected to their leader, and connected in conformity to one mind.

The cult leader appears to have special knowledge - knowledge that no one else could have. He/she is certain of this. His/her knowledge comes from beyond the world, from Christ, God, or a being from another planet or time. It is as if all his/her knowledge is backed by a myth that has now become real. Others are told that only with this knowledge will they be saved. He/she alone can save them. He/she alone knows what they should do, how they should be, who they are, and what they are. He does not doubt himself/herself. Convinced and convincing, he/she brings the cult into existence.

Isolation is a major factor. Cultists don't know that they are living in a "pretend world". They are allowed little or no outside contact outside the cult, or they are taught to fear "outsiders". They have no frame of reference, no contrast to enable them to make the disctinction between the world we all live in and the cult's world. It is imperative that they all follow the leader's direction or they will suffer unspeakable loss: to be cast out of the "world" where there is no protection from the "evil" he/she is saving them from.

The rules are terribly strict. Members may live in their own homes, but their dress, budget, and activities are all subject to the leader's approval. They are isolated not only from the outside world, but also from each other. They are taught that they have no access to truth.

Generally, cult members must reveal all of their thoughts to their leader and so are made to betray their basic loyalties. These secret revelations are used as special knowledge to further exalt the leader. No one has a confidant. Their conversations are subject to scrutiny. Usually, privacy is forbidden. The leader can walk into any home, and bedroom, any place a member may be, and his/her invasion is accepted because his "contact" has authorized it.

The leader steps into the minds of the members with the authority of a god. He/she claims secret knowledge and plays upon any information he/she gleans from other members. He/she appears all-knowing.

Paradoxically, no cult members recognize that the group is a cult. The members feel that they are the chosen ones. Insiders. Privy to secret and life-saving knowledge - knowledge that comes from the "beyond" through their leader.

-------------------------------------

This little excerpt pretty much confirms the fact that spiritual abuse wears down our self-identity to the point where your self-worth is based on what you do in your religious life and what your spiritual leadership thinks about you.

As we begin to re-gain our own self-identity that was lost in the church/cult, many of us don't even have a clue who or what that is. If you're like me, when I joined my former church/cult at the age of 22, I didn't really even know who I was to begin with. I was searching for purpose in life. Therefore I was a prime candidate to take on the identity of the cult leader. Once I joined the church, I no longer struggled with who I was - I now had a self-identity that pleased God (or so I thought). This gave me a false sense of peace. Many spiritual abuse victims return to their group or another church/cult to try to regain this false peace that was lost when they exited the group.

I believe that the empty, void feeling that most of us struggle with is the loss of our own self-identity. We became co-dependent on our former leader to tell us who and what we are. Now that many of us don't have that, we are looking behind every corner to try to find out just who we really are. Everyone wants a cause and a purpose in life. This makes us susceptible to join another controlling group in our search to have someone tell us who we are again. I have determined not to do this, but rather, I am determined to go through the sometimes painful and confusing process of finding my self identity apart from someone dictating it to me again. However, this is not the easy way (no pain, no gain). It's much easier to just let someone else do it for you - but we all know what that inevitably leads to: Another co-dependent relationship with a controller.

I wish I had all of the answers to the dilemma that many of us face in trying to regain a sense of one's self. However, if I did someone would probably become co-dependent on me - LOL! I believe that learning about the process of losing our self-identity will help us understand and work towards a healthy process of re-establishing who and what we are. This will be based on our terms, not someone else's. Articles like the one above make it clear to me that I am on the right track.

:cool:

[outcast]

Voyager,
Thank you so very, very much for posting that article. It is excellent information that I have not found anywhere else so far and it answered many of my questions.

Like you, I refuse to return to the cult and I am determined not to allow a new organization to tell me who I am and what I should think. Yes, it is excruciating - especially in the past few weeks - but I am determined to be authentic and to be who I am really supposed to be. It is scary sometimes too.

I am certainly going to copy this article for my own archives to reread later.

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=mary]Outcast, I echo Profnachos...

It's been nearly 9 months since I was thrown out of "the cult." I felt the same way you do, but I've had a revelation in the last few weeks or so. (I felt as though I was the only one who was wrong, that I did something horrible and I was the one who "needed" to be run out of the fellowship.) My revelation was: The Emperor ("pastor") really does have no clothes! :D

Funny you mention the emporer. I use that analogy in talks on post cult recovery all the time. This was certainly the way I felt when I walked out of the bible school 20 years ago.

Being thrown out of a group is the most painful way of leaving. My heart goes out to you. :(

[Jo Jo]

Voyager -

This is fabulous information... I must print it out and carry it around and read it for awhile. :)

I'm just so shocked that the longer I'm out of that little church the more I become awake to the things that were going on in it. I'm still so blind to things. I want to go back in and rescue people, or tell them, "look, now I know what's really going on here." Oh, I'm sure they would really appreciate that now... just like when I tried to talk to them then. eek! I feel sad for my friends there, but they have to come to the same conclusions I did or they won't be ready to leave on their own I guess. :(

[outcast]

Yes Jo Jo, they really do have to realize things on their own. I had to myself. People tried to talk to me about the problems for over a decade. It wasn't until I experienced it that I woke up. If you do try to talk to them it just plays into their hands with the whole "Jo Jo is deceived by the devil" crap. Just love your friends and be there for them when they begin to see it. Believe me, they will need it more then than what they do right now.

As we both know, it is not fun when your world comes crashing down on you.

I spent about 2 hours on the phone w/my very best friend. She still attends the cult church for now, but her eyes are open. She will be leaving very soon and I am so glad.

I am going tomorrow to speak w/my new pastor's wife about stepping back from doing the ministries I've been involved in so far at church. Part of me is very scared b/c of having flashbacks all week to when I resigned as worship leader from the cult church. My old pastor was so hateful then. It brought up alot of hurts for me and made me see that I wasn't healed yet.

I am going to find a professional counselor in this area who specializes in this. I see that I do need help. The forum is helping alot too, but I think it would be wisdom to get with someone who knows how to guide people through this process. It has been a very painful week for me b/c of all this. The previous month I had felt pretty normal again.

Again, I do ask for everyone's prayers as I go talk to her tomorrow. I must be bold. I will let you all know how it turns out.

[Jo Jo]

Outcast -

I will pray for you, I hope your new pastor will understand. It is good you are looking for a professional counselor that can help you work through some of the issues surround all of that stuff. I'm finding out the longer I'm away now from that cultic church the more stuff is coming out. I'm already seeing a councilor and I think that is why I finally got well enough to leave that church and that unhealthy little group I was with. She is now helping me deal with the repercussions of that step.

Yes, and it's so true they still think that I was just totally blinded or something when I left... that I was the Judas in their midst. The more we push the people that are left the more they hold on tight. I just sometimes share how I'm doing... which is so much better and lighter and happier... that I hope they can see that maybe there is life after that place, which of course we thought we would fall off the end of the earth if we left. It's just so hard and frustrating being misunderstood and judged like that. :confused:

I am SO happy for you and your friend that she is leaving that cult church. That would make me so happy if my close friend would leave, but I'm almost sure she never will. She is so tied to them it's scary. But she doesn't always go to church every Sunday now, so who knows.

Let us know how tomorrow goes. :)

[outcast]

Thanks for praying Jo Jo and anyone else who did too. :) Things went far better than expected. Thank God. I felt like an idiot b/c I was bawling like a baby before I even got into her office to speak w/her. I was petrified. She was really wonderful and supportive. She told me that I was far more important than the ministry I was in. I told her I've never heard that from a pastoral authority before. We talked for about an hour and it was very good. She gave me the name of a local counselor. Overall, I am just very relieved about how she handled it. I felt bad for being so scared but after the way my old pastor treated me when I resigned my position, it was all that was on my mind the entire week prior to today. I think I am in a good church finally. I hope it's real anyway...

[mary]

My revelation was: The Emperor ("pastor") really does have no clothes! :D

Funny you mention the emporer. I use that analogy in talks on post cult recovery all the time. This was certainly the way I felt when I walked out of the bible school 20 years ago.

Being thrown out of a group is the most painful way of leaving. My heart goes out to you. :(


Oh, Ex-Shep, thank you so much. I did know you gave talks on post-cult recovery and I should have paid better attention to your prior references. Now they're much needed! I praise the Lord for your work.

I don't know what's worse, finally realizing that you're in an unhealthy cult, being talked about behind your back and then voluntarily leaving, as was a common experience in this forum, I observe, or what happened to me. Basically, what happened to me was "pastor" threw me out because my husband (after much patience, and very necessarily) had told him to keep his hands to himself around me; I defended my husband to "pastor;" "pastor" then told me that we could - ahem - do things "when he (my husband) isn't around," and I said no, we will not. Six weeks after that, and after "pastor" observed me giving my husband a brief hug during a fellowship luncheon, "pastor" told me that my defense of my husband in the manner that I had phrased it weeks earlier put me "beyond (his) forgiveness and reconciliation forever" and I was not allowed to return to the church. I told him that he couldn't do that; it's against Matthew 18, etc. He didn't care. I appealed to the elders and to the presbytery, but they all blew me off. In fact, the denomination itself blew me off and its website banned me from its message board (even though I was careful never to identify "pastor" on it).

I can tell myself that this man is a predator and a nut (he did and said many things to me... I considered him an appropriate authority figure at the time and shouldn't have been this seemingly naive); he's a false pastor and false shepherd and the Lord will deal with him. But I'm still thinking, wow, there must be something really wrong with me. He didn't treat any of the other married women in this manner. There must be something particularly worthless about me. I'm still struggling. I can barely walk into any church now and hold my head up or not feel like crying. Even though this was a Protestant denomination, I'm an ex-Catholic and at heart, I'm still a cloistered convent-educated, Catholic schoolgirl. Things like this don't just roll off my back. This was horribly and exquisitely humiliating to me. "Pastor's" wife attacked me too, as though I was "the other woman," and I never did anything to her. That hurts about as much as anything else.

I don't dare drive in the neighborhood of that church anymore for fear of running into any of "them," including "pastor." (He told me more than once, "I outweigh you by more than 60 pounds and I can take you down." He's a body-builder and an accomplished, martial arts practitioner.) My sister lives within a mile of the "church" and I can barely stand to go to her house anymore. The local police advised that I get a personal protection order (PPO) against him (and I could have it served on him by county sheriff's deputies whenever I wanted to, like when he's preaching or whenever!) but I declined. I just want this - and these people - to go away.

I post things on here as though I'm okay, but I'm really not much of the time... I've lived, gone to school and worked in this large, metropolitan area for my whole life and before all this happened, I had absolutely no enemies around here at all. Now I have a couple dozen of them. John 16:1-3 and Luke 6:26..., I guess...

Sorry for the length of this, guys... Thanks.

mary

[outcast]

*hug*
Oh Mary, I am so, so sorry that happened to you. I have been there too b/c my ex pastor was very physically inappropriate w/me at times and I had to blatantly tell him that I would never do anything with him. You would probably be surprised at the number of women that he's actually messed w/other than you. I was.

When I left the church my pastor's wife told the church secretary that they had sent me to counseling last summer b/c I stared at her husband's crotch all the time! She also said that I lied about my reasons for leaving the church. Nothing like being called a lying, crotch staring slut to permanently severe all ties to a place like that. Fortunately, the secretary was a good friend to me and she defended me and told the pastor's wife that she had no right to even speak about me like that. Of course, I was still working for them as a teacher until the end of the year.

So, the point of all this is to let you know that you are certainly not alone. And that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. Other women were likely messed w/but just haven't come forward yet. I know that there are hundreds who were messed w/by my old pastor and for at least 20 years or more. Both of these men are sexual predators. I hope that it helps to know that you are not alone.

[mary]

*hug*
Oh Mary, I am so, so sorry that happened to you. I have been there too b/c my ex pastor was very physically inappropriate w/me at times and I had to blatantly tell him that I would never do anything with him. You would probably be surprised at the number of women that he's actually messed w/other than you. I was.

When I left the church my pastor's wife told the church secretary that they had sent me to counseling last summer b/c I stared at her husband's crotch all the time! She also said that I lied about my reasons for leaving the church. Nothing like being called a lying, crotch staring slut to permanently severe all ties to a place like that. Fortunately, the secretary was a good friend to me and she defended me and told the pastor's wife that she had no right to even speak about me like that. Of course, I was still working for them as a teacher until the end of the year.

So, the point of all this is to let you know that you are certainly not alone. And that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. Other women were likely messed w/but just haven't come forward yet. I know that there are hundreds who were messed w/by my old pastor and for at least 20 years or more. Both of these men are sexual predators. I hope that it helps to know that you are not alone.


Good grief, (((((Outcast!!!))))) What a horrible, despicable, witch (rhymes with... :rolleyes: ) your old pastor's wife is!!!! Anyone who would say anything like that about anyone, much less one of their own teachers, for crying out loud, should be taken out back and put out of her obvious misery with a .45. I'm sorry to say that, but that really makes me mad!!! :mad: I'm just sputtering... You could sue her for slander. That woman is a monster and certainly should not be a pastor's wife. She defiles the very title.

I don't really hope that my "pastor" was messing with other women because I wouldn't want anyone else to go through what I did, but maybe he was/is... I know what my particular attraction was to him because he told me... See, he's only about 5'1". His wife is tall, about 5'9". (She used to wear 3" heels just to make him mad.) I'm just under 4'10" and he "liked the idea" of being taller than a woman for a change, of "towering" over me. That was at least part of it. I hope he isn't messing with little girls!!!!! (I'll pray about that...) It's certainly a possibility.

I pray for the Lord to wreak His vengeance on these people, on those who have hurt you and me and everyone else here. We've all been victimized terribly.

mary

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=mary]Oh, Ex-Shep, thank you so much. I did know you gave talks on post-cult recovery and I should have paid better attention to your prior references. Now they're much needed! I praise the Lord for your work.

Just curious how you knew about my work. You can always send a PM if want to remain anonymous.

There must be something particularly worthless about me. I'm still struggling. I can barely walk into any church now and hold my head up or not feel like crying. .... That hurts about as much as anything else.

One has to realize that is not the member's fault. It the group that did the abusing, not the member. It is hard mindset to break. I was also bullied by a female at work. It was not my fault, even though the former employer did a good job of blaming the victim.

I don't dare drive in the neighborhood of that church anymore for fear of running into any of "them," including "pastor." I just want this - and these people - to go away.


I can relate to wanting not to deal with the former group. I had to move from the east coast to the midwest to break from the mind control. I also feel the same way regarding my former employer. I am having a battle getting my severance pay. I just want to put that behind me too.

I post things on here as though I'm okay, but I'm really not much of the time... I've lived, gone to school and worked in this large, metropolitan area for my whole life and before all this happened, I had absolutely no enemies around here at all. Now I have a couple dozen of them. John 16:1-3 and Luke 6:26..., I guess...

You are where you are. If you are angry, you are angry; sad, then sad. It is all part the grieving process. The good news is it does get better, even though it may not feel so at the time. Hangeth on in there.

Sorry for the length of this, guys... Thanks.

Take all the time and space you need. There is always somebody on line who can relate. Virtual coffepot is always brewing.

[Jo Jo]

Outcast -

I'm so glad it went good for you talking to your new pastor's wife. And I'm glad that you don't have the extra church duties and you can focus and take care of your self now. I think that was a really good idea. You have gone through way too much to keep pushing yourself right now.

Gads that make me so mad at the crap that goes on in churches and, oh, the 'healthy' way they are dealt with. *erp*

I'm so sorry what you and Mary had to go through. I'm glad you both are free of those places now and hope things improve and you can heal. I know, though, it can be a slow road. Be patient and caring with yourselves.

[outcast]

Thank you Mary, Jo Jo, and Ex shep for your words of encouragement and wisdom. I come here daily now, sometimes several times a day b/c it really does help to know others have been there too and are making it through! It gives me great hope. The support here is really wonderful too.

Mary, I really did see a side to my old pastor's wife in the past 6-8 months that I never even knew existed. Her husband, I think, is a mentally ill sociopath. She, OTOH, is more manipulative than he is and would sacrifice him, her family and countless others for the sake of going somewhere in the "full time ministry." It makes me very sad and angry.

I don't say this flippantly, but IMO, she is an evil little woman. :(

I know how you feel too about not wanting to drive near the church if possible. That's how I am too now. I can easily avoid it b/c it is not on any major highways I use. But, this is a small town and avoiding the people from there altogether is not always so easy. Meh.

I spoke w/a friend of mine about an hour ago. She was from the old church and we had started to get close before I left. She's a wonderful lady. She left the cult right after we did, but not b/c she knew what was going on there; just b/c she wasn't happy there. She now attends my new church and she was going to join the women's worship team I had started leading and recently gave up. I wanted her to know the truth about what happened to me finally and why I was needing to take the time to heal as I will explain to the other ladies soon.

Needless to say she was shocked. But, she believed me! It was so nice not only to be able to tell my story, but to have someone believe it too. I have recently realized that part of my anger/frustration in all this was the muzzle of silence I've had to wear for the past year especially, but really for 12 years. She thanked me for telling her everything and of course she was sorry to hear what I'd been through. Then she was thankful that God removed her too. So am I.

[mary]

[QUOTE=mary]

Just curious how you knew about my work. You can always send a PM if want to remain anonymous.


Well, Ex-Shep, I just recall from "way back when" that either you or someone else on this forum referred to your post-cult recovery ministry experience. It may have been as far back as last November, when I joined this forum... I've kept it in mind, anyway! :)

Thanks for all of your other input and opinions and assistance... A ministry like this, for you, is certainly a work of the Holy Spirit in action!

mary

[ex-shep]

I know how you feel too about not wanting to drive near the church if possible. That's how I am too now. I can easily avoid it b/c it is not on any major highways I use. But, this is a small town and avoiding the people from there altogether is not always so easy. Meh.

I had the same problem with the bible school. I had to change which buses I took so as not to run into members. I also stayed out late to so we would be traveling in opposite directions. It finally got to the point where I had to move out of state. I can definitely relate.

[roseofkaren]

You know Outcast, I strongly agree with Dougjb. I have experienced times when my own father's teaching at home so 'brainwashed' me that I felt God couldn't possibly love me. I thought He (God) was a scorekeeper, up there saying ...."there's one more for....... I never understood Him (God) to be merciful and loving because that was never demonstrated. For years I couldn't read the old testiment, because it brought up feelings of my own father's wrath, anger, and bad temper. That is what the 'God of the Old Testiment" seemed to be to me. It took years, and I had to completely avoid it altogether. I've also gone through the same thing with Revelations. But lately (I'm now 54) I've come to see the Loving father of the Old Testiment. I read it now, and all I see is Love. How much God the Father loved/loves his children. It's incredible!

Where I once could only read parts (the good parts) of the O.T, I can now read all of it. If I find there is some part of it that convicts me now, I can just say, Yes, Lord, I've done that too, and I'm sorry. And I know without a doubt he forgives me.

Like Dougjb said, you need to be rebooted, or maybe like me, even reprogramed. I was programed from a child to fear God, not in a reverencial (sp) way, but in a way that caused me to want nothing to do with this 'angry, score-keeping' God I though was the God of the O.T.

But God is faithful. You know when you re-program something/someone, you first have to 'erase' the memories or old programing. That is why I think sometimes God allows us to 'rest' from our labors, and to just trust in and lean on Him. He WILL heal you. You are in his hand. He will never let you go. He loves you more than you could ever imagine.

What is that scripture 'a bruised reed, he will not break' ....He knows, he is aquainted with our sufferings.....People hurt Jesus too....

I will be praying for your healing. Just rest in Him, and know that he loves you.

[ex-shep]

Like Dougjb said, you need to be rebooted, or maybe like me, even reprogramed. I was programed from a child to fear God, not in a reverencial (sp) way, but in a way that caused me to want nothing to do with this 'angry, score-keeping' God I though was the God of the O.T.

But God is faithful. You know when you re-program something/someone, you first have to 'erase' the memories or old programing. That is why I think sometimes God allows us to 'rest' from our labors, and to just trust in and lean on Him. He WILL heal you. You are in his hand. He will never let you go. He loves you more than you could ever imagine.

What is that scripture 'a bruised reed, he will not break' ....He knows, he is aquainted with our sufferings.....People hurt Jesus too....

I will be praying for your healing. Just rest in Him, and know that he loves you.[/QUOTE]

The programming does take time. I left in 1984. Did not become fully comfortable in evangelical settings until 2003. One day at a time. My situation may be the exception more than the norm. I know many former members who were able to find comfortable venues for worship and fellowship usually between 6-24 months. I cannot remember where the stats came from. The Goldbergs, social workers who counsel former cult members estimate it takes 6 months for each year of involvement in one's group. Of course there are a lot of variables including the severity of the abuse and the amount of post group support such as in person and web forums, which can skew the figures. Professional counseling with one who has a working knowlege of mind control or spiritual abuse can reduce the recovery.

Lest anyone get overwhelmed or discouraged, remember recovery is done one day at time, sometime one hour. Each day it get a little better. It will be worth the wait, even though it may not feel like it today.

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=ex-shep]Like Dougjb said, you need to be rebooted, or maybe like me, even reprogramed. I was programed from a child to fear God, not in a reverencial (sp) way, but in a way that caused me to want nothing to do with this 'angry, score-keeping' God I though was the God of the O.T.


The programming does take time. I left in 1984.

Should read "reprogramming [the old tapes in one's head].

[outcast]

Thanks Ex-shep. Yes, all I am doing right now is holding on to the fact that God loves me and he is trustworthy. I can't remember, but I think I read that somewhere on this forum...

Hmm. At the Goldbergs rate of recovery it would take me about 6 years. :lol: I thought that giving myself 6 months was pretty generous. :) I am determined not to place a time frame on it now though. Just one day at a time is enough for me.

I appreciate yours and everyone's prayers for recovery. I am very thankful to God for having me "stumble" across this forum. It has already been a wonderful aid to have you all here to talk to. God is sovereign and he is very good indeed. :)

[ex-shep]

Thanks Ex-shep. Yes, all I am doing right now is holding on to the fact that God loves me and he is trustworthy. I can't remember, but I think I read that somewhere on this forum...

Hmm. At the Goldbergs rate of recovery it would take me about 6 years. :lol: I thought that giving myself 6 months was pretty generous. :) I am determined not to place a time frame on it now though. Just one day at a time is enough for me.

I appreciate yours and everyone's prayers for recovery. I am very thankful to God for having me "stumble" across this forum. It has already been a wonderful aid to have you all here to talk to. God is sovereign and he is very good indeed. :)

The fact that you are meeting on the forum should reduce the recovery time somewhat. If you can break the piggybank and travel to recovery conference, it might very well be worth one's while. ICSA and Refocus are excellent resources. Of course take what you like and leave the rest.


The website for the Goldbergs

http://www.blgoldberg.com/

ISCA

http://www.csj.org/

REfocus

http://www.refocus.org/

refocus has a free email newsletter on recovery topics. You can sign up. It is an excellent read.

[outcast]

Thanks again. :) I checked out some of the articles on the refocus site and I added all 3 sites to my favorites so that I can come back and peruse them again at leisure. They look like excellent resources and I was really looking for more stuff on this b/c I've already exhausted everything google has turned up. These must've been hiding somewhere... :P