Cult warning signs

[ex-shep]

Illuminated, in another post, wanted to know how to smell a cult. The old adage, where there is smoke, there is fire, still holds true. Gut level indicators can be extremely reliable. Personally, with the business cult, my conscience would not let me get away with it. My dad always said, if it too good to be true, than it probably is.

First off, for those who know neither Lifton’s criteria nor the Seven Dwarves, they are milieu Control, mystical Manipulation (planned spontaneity), demand for purity, cult of Confession, sacred science, loading the language, doctrine over person, and dispensing of existence. If you really need to know the latter: Bashful, Sneezy, Sleepy, Happy, Grumpy, Dopey, and Doc. I did provide the link for further illumination.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/lifton_robert_thoughtreform.htm

Some of the definite warning signals. If it is too good to be true. In the business cult, the tip off was. “this product revolutionized my life. I am a brand new person”. The claims were too wonderful. Is the presentation of the group contains a really caged or robotic pitch. “What would you do if God gave you a million dollars.” “My life was so hum drum until I found The Group!!”. “I just became one with the cosmos”. “Our product can change the world”.
Watch out for deceptive recruiting. The business cult would definitely not reveal what was going on until recruited. The shepherding group, where I lost Tammy, did not reveal the leader until the members were “spiritually mature” sufficiently indoctrinated in the group. There was a spot for an airline where a couple was invited over for dinner, just to get hit with the multi-level marketing spiel. The punch line of the commercial, “Isn’t time you go on vacation?” My favorite bait and switch was when my wife and I were walking downtown in Midwest city to catch a Major League baseball game. Some college kid came up gave us tickets under the pretense that his fraternity brothers could not make the game and would we like his seats. After we took the tickets, “Oh, you will be sitting with the Midwest Church.” We had been had. Actually the tickets were genuine. We got into the ballpark and stood over first base overlook.

If the group demands over-commitment at the expense of family, work or studies, things can get out of whack in a hurry. The overextension can be hypnotic and increase the mind control dynamic.

The internet can be the best friend sometimes. It got me out a jam quickly. I looked up the group, found a plethora of bad press, plus testimonies from ex-members. Internet or library research can go along way. Looking up support groups or chat rooms can be a wellspring of information. If the group is small or obscure, then it can be a challenge. It never hurts to check.

Finally I leave two links on what to look for. One is from my alma matar, which was rocked by the shepherding discipleship movement. I was working with a few alumni who were bashed up by it. So I am grateful for response. The other is multiple list of warning signs from Cults on Campus.

http://www.ohiou.edu/students/relorg7.html

http://www.cultsoncampus.com/campusinfo.html

I hope you found the information useful. As always take what you like and leave the rest. If you have any other questions or comments, post away.

[Jerry]

Dear ExShep,,,,
Let me guess,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"SMC" right ???????? or Carlton Sheets ????? :D
Love Jerry

[ex-shep]

Dear ExShep,,,,
Let me guess,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"SMC" right ???????? or Carlton Sheets ????? :D
Love Jerry

Ok, I am not up yet. Guess you are going to have to explain the punch line. :confused:

[Illuminated]

If you have any other questions or comments, post away.Thanks ex-shep for starting this thread. What I actually meant was that others on the forum have mentioned wanting to know more about how to classify a group as a cult, cult-like, or spiritually abusive group. I have read nothing on cults recruiting on campus, so your links and your story were very helpful to me. Thanks!

Here is some more information that carries on from your listing of Lifton's 8 criteria. I have a hard time understanding some of them and what exactly they mean - for instance - it seems like numbers 7 and 8 are the same thing.:confused: But I have read that if a group meets 5 or more criteria, then the group can be considered cult-like.

1. Milieu Control - Control of communication both from without and within the group environment, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from the surrounding society. Includes other techniques to restrict members' contact with outside world and to be able to make critical, rational judgments about information: overwork, busy-ness, multiple lengthy meetings, etc.

2. Mystical Manipulation - The claim of divine authority or spiritual advancement that allows the leader to reinterpret events as he or she wishes, or make prophecies or pronouncements at will, all for the purpose of controlling group members.

3. Demand for Purity - The world is viewed as black and white and group members are constantly exhorted to strive for perfection. Consequently, guilt and shame are common and powerful control devices.

4. The Cult of Confession - Serious (and often not so serious) sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed, either privately to a personal monitor or publicly to the group at large.

5. The "Sacred Science" - The doctrine of the group is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or disputing. The leader of the group is likewise above criticism as the spokesperson for God on earth.

6. Loading the Language - The group develops a jargon in many ways unique to itself, often not understandable to outsiders. This jargon consists of numerous words and phrases which the members understand (or think they do), but which really act to dull one's ability to engage in critical thinking.

7. Doctrine over Person - The personal experiences of the group members are subordinated to the "Truth" held by the group -- apparently contrary experiences must be denied or re-interpreted to fit the doctrine of the group. The doctrine is always more important than the individual.

8. Dispensing of Existence - The group arrogates to itself the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. Usually held non-literally, this means that those outside the group are unspiritual, worldly, satanic, "unconscious," or whatever, and that they must be converted to the ideas of the group or they will be lost. If they refuse to join the group, then they must be rejected by the group members, even if they are family members. In rare cases this concept gives the group the right to terminate the outsider's life.

I didn't write this, Robert Lifton wrote it.

A site to read more about it: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/lifton.htm

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Illuminated][SIZE="1"]Thanks ex-shep for starting this thread. What I actually meant was that others on the forum have mentioned wanting to know more about how to classify a group as a cult, cult-like, or spiritually abusive group. I have read nothing on cults recruiting on campus, so your links and your story were very helpful to me. Thanks!

Thanks for listing the criteria. I was afraid Iwould run out of space. What constitutes a cult and so on is an excellent question. The anti-cult movement has struggled over that one for years. Since cult is such a perjorative term, I have just used the generic term abusive group. Not all us have had problems with the Baptist Methodist Lutheran Comunity Church of Metropolis. Some groups are have obviously glaring problems accross the board. Some may just be one congregation or maybe in a certain part the country. We have a member on the forum who was in an idependent baptist church. I had a roommate who was in the same church in the Midwest. He was loveable down to earth and a good head on his shoulders. The church was a little dry, but that was it. In the East Coast, it was a different story.

A cult is simply a following. There are Elvis Presley cults everywhere. To date, I have yet see one turn up at a cult recovery conference. [Of course in this line of work, nothing shatters my naivete.] I was on the radio with a prominant radio personality for the area. He loved the quip, "I always said you had a cult following, but I never saw you order anyone to drink Kool-Aid.".

A cult like group or pyschologically abusive cult can be safely categorized using Lifton's criteria.

Spiritually abusive is a recent term. I believe it evolved from the term bible based cults. Usually the groups are Christian in origin and orthodox in theology. It is not the faith, but the practice. There are extra-biblical rules and regulations. There are expectations which are restrictive and divisive. It is not the most exhaustive definition, but I hope that helps. Good question. Next latte on me.

[Willow]

[QUOTE=Illuminated]

Spiritually abusive is a recent term. I believe it evolved from the term bible based cults. Usually the groups are Christian in origin and orthodox in theology. It is not the faith, but the practice. There are extra-biblical rules and regulations. There are expectations which are restrictive and divisive. It is not the most exhaustive definition, but I hope that helps. Good question. Next latte on me.


Hey ex-shep. I don't know if you realize this... but I've always looked up to you as someone farther along in the recovery chain.

I'm praying for you bro!

Amy

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=ex-shep]


Hey ex-shep. I don't know if you realize this... but I've always looked up to you as someone farther along in the recovery chain.

I'm praying for you bro!

Amy

Appreciate the kudos. :)

[dougjb]

Spiritually abusive is a recent term. I believe it evolved from the term bible based cults. Usually the groups are Christian in origin and orthodox in theology. It is not the faith, but the practice. There are extra-biblical rules and regulations. There are expectations which are restrictive and divisive. It is not the most exhaustive definition, but I hope that helps. Good question. Next latte on me.[/QUOTE]

I believe that Ex-shep has brought up an excellent issue regarding 'extra-biblical rules and regulations' within those Christian groups that claim orthodox theology. Are people actually practicing what they are professing? If one is not practicing what is being professed, then what do they really believe? Jesus said in Matthew 7, 'By their fruits you will recognize them.'

I got thinking about what happens and/or when Christians and churchs begin to supplement the Christian faith with other beliefs, rules, or anything else. If they are supplementing, then are they assuming that there are deficiencies in the Christian faith that an all-knowing and all-wise God seemed to have missed.:rolleyes: Just being a little sarcastic here.

What I have witnessed is that when Christian start supplementing their faith, the very thing they use to supplement the faith begins to replace their faith. I do not believe it is possible to subordinate the faith and yet remain true to it. I am not talking about a demand for perfection, but I am saying that there is the danger of going down the slippery slope to the extent that profession and practice are completely different.
Dougjb

[ex-shep]

What I have witnessed is that when Christian start supplementing their faith, the very thing they use to supplement the faith begins to replace their faith. I do not believe it is possible to subordinate the faith and yet remain true to it. I am not talking about a demand for perfection, but I am saying that there is the danger of going down the slippery slope to the extent that profession and practice are completely different.
Dougjb[/QUOTE]


I think those were the Pharisees. I have always said that it was not the faith, but the practice. I am OK with tradition. The Methodist side of me is coming out as long as it does not override faith. Good well thought out response.

[dougjb]

Hi ex-shep,
I had another thought here. I have heard for years the phrase 'bible based cults.' Do you think we need to find another word or phrase to describe these people?
The reason I thinking this is because to use 'bible based' and 'cult' in the same phrase seems like a contradiction in terms. Here are a couple of otheri options.
1. quasi-biblically based cult - maybe
2. pseudo-biblical cult - a little better
3. cults aping the bible - ok maybe
4. odd balls misusing the bible - kind of works

My mind just went blank. Do you or anyone else have any new words of phrases?

Food for thought.
Dougjb

[ex-shep]

Hi ex-shep,
I had another thought here. I have heard for years the phrase 'bible based cults.' Do you think we need to find another word or phrase to describe these people?
The reason I thinking this is because to use 'bible based' and 'cult' in the same phrase seems like a contradiction in terms. Here are a couple of otheri options.
1. quasi-biblically based cult - maybe
2. pseudo-biblical cult - a little better
3. cults aping the bible - ok maybe
4. odd balls misusing the bible - kind of works

My mind just went blank. Do you or anyone else have any new words of phrases?

Food for thought.
Dougjb

Hi ex-shep,
I had another thought here. I have heard for years the phrase 'bible based cults.' Do you think we need to find another word or phrase to describe these people?
The reason I thinking this is because to use 'bible based' and 'cult' in the same phrase seems like a contradiction in terms. Here are a couple of otheri options.
1. quasi-biblically based cult - maybe
2. pseudo-biblical cult - a little better
3. cults aping the bible - ok maybe
4. odd balls misusing the bible - kind of works

My mind just went blank. Do you or anyone else have any new words of phrases?

Food for thought.
Dougjb

I think spiritually abusive groups is a good general overall term. I have heard psuedo bible based cult. "Cult" is such a fighting word that "group" seems better. Tammy's group is now categorized as a totalist aberrant group. It depends on the individual congregation. The local church I attend recognizes spiritual abuse as "legalism".

There was a sermon at First Unitarian Church, Providence RI in 1985 entitled "Cult is a Four Letter Word". The minister had a point. "There is a heretic in the congregation. A man detestable in the eyes of God. A lackey of Satan. This man must be expelled from the congregation -- Roger Williams must be stopped." At least the term group can make one still be open to problems.

See what other responses come down the pike.

[dougjb]

thank you ex-shep,
What I am going to do is give you is what I am thinking in relation to the subject matter. We are addressing the whole concept of 'cults' or 'cult type of thinking.' What I might be getting at is this - if there is an abuse of something, then there must be a correct or right reflection of this something. I believe that it is impossible to have a counterfiet unless there is a true representation of something. What would happen if we focused our attention of the right instead of the error.
I heard once that if one wanted to recognize a counterfiet dollar, than one must know want a true dollar looked like. If we desire to know the true faith expressed in the Bible, then would we not be more able to see through the deception and lies of the false express of the abusers.

This is just food for thought - what do you think?
Dougjb

[mary]

Hi ex-shep,

cults aping the bible - ok maybe

Dougjb

If you will permit me to jump in briefly, how about "apes copping the Bible?"

My old church:

1) was part of a European-based denomination, run by a presbytery that wasn't even in this country (no oversight, none whatsoever, for "pastor");

2) was pastored by a man who refused to teach or to hold a Sunday school, a men's Bible study, a women's Bible study - nothing;

3) had (same dude) a pastor who boasted that he "never read anything," that he could exegete the Bible for himself without anyone else's help, thank you very much; this same "pastor" could preach a 50-minute sermon on any book of the Old Testament and never, ever mention the name of Jesus Christ - and his sermons on the New Testament never exalted Christ in any way, shape or form;

4) was populated by a clique of women from this European country who would zero in on a particular American woman, talk about her behind her back and run her right into the ground for no discernible reason, to the effect that she would have no friends left in the church;

5) had the reputation in Europe in its "split" of not so long ago of being totally apostate;

6) refused to have anything to do with the surrounding community or other Christian denominations.

These places, I don't think, are quasi-anything... I think they're of the devil rather than pseudo Biblical. Feel free to disagree... I like this discussion.

mary

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=mary]If you will permit me to jump in briefly, how about "apes copping the Bible?"

sounds like a dysfuntional church to me

[dougjb]

Hi Mary,
There are situations like your old church in which they have gone down the slippery slope so far that they are beyond quasi-anything and psuedo-Biblical and are of the devil. It sound your old church did just that.

The Bible talks about those who have a form of godliness but denying its power. Cults love to use just enough of the Bible to give an air of legitimacy, but in reality, they seek to drive a wedge between their intended victim and the truth.

there is so much to talk about. Just a little more food for thought.
Dougjb

[outcast]

I remember months ago as I read about cults for the first time and I realized that my old church was one...

I just sat in front of my laptop for hours reading and crying. Everything listed on that list as well as others WAS my old church. My biggest fear at this point is in reintegrating into my new church. They seem like sincere people who love God. But, there are things I notice there that I simply refuse to explain away.

If anything, all this has made me feel paranoid about other believers. Not so much the ones here, but in my new church and IRL.

I realized that something my old church capitalized on w/me was the fact that I had no personal boundaries. I am still working on that and the fact that I do have the right to tell people no. Or to have private time alone or just whatever.

As I was evaluating the new church I am in, I looked up these things about cults so that I could do a comparison. So far so good, but only time will tell I'm afraid.

[dougjb]

Hi outcast,
One of the difficult things I am still dealing with is 'trust.' Once people violate your 'trust' I find it hard to accept things at face value. I find myself looking at people and wondering if there are ulterior motives.
Maybe God has allowed some of these things to happen so we learn how to discern more accurately between truth and error, healthy churches and unhealthy ones. I believe God has a purpose for everything, and the things we learn here will ultimately be used to help others.

A little food for thought
Dougjb

[outcast]

Hi outcast,
One of the difficult things I am still dealing with is 'trust.' Once people violate your 'trust' I find it hard to accept things at face value. I find myself looking at people and wondering if there are ulterior motives.
Maybe God has allowed some of these things to happen so we learn how to discern more accurately between truth and error, healthy churches and unhealthy ones. I believe God has a purpose for everything, and the things we learn here will ultimately be used to help others.

A little food for thought
Dougjb

Exactly Doug. If anything, I learned that when I see odd things in people's behavior and the little red flag goes up, it is not necessarily a good idea to overlook that as we would another's flaws. I now think in my mind "note to self: so and so blah, blah, blah... be careful." I think you have made a good point here and one I will be thinking on. Thanks. :)

[Jerry]

They seem like sincere people who love God. But, there are things I notice there that I simply refuse to explain away.



Dear Outcast,,,,
When choosing a "Church" the way they love God is actually beside the point.We all conceptualize God differently as we are all individuals.The more important question is ,,,,,,"Do the people love each other as Christ commanded ??"People who love each other,do not inflict shame,they encourage not discourage,they never say be warmed but rather hand you a blanket.When children are irreverent in service they admonish them but with a sense of humor shinning through......They never measure "Faith" as if it was dispensed from a gas-pump,they never take your "Spiritual Temperature ".They offer forgiviness,and never demand it.They don't "Sell Blessings" for a "Tithe"......In short they behave as the "One" they follow..... ;)
Love Jerry

[dougjb]

Hi Jerry,
Good post. I say - amen!

Dougjb

[ex-shep]

Hi Mary,
There are situations like your old church in which they have gone down the slippery slope so far that they are beyond quasi-anything and psuedo-Biblical and are of the devil. It sound your old church did just that.

The Bible talks about those who have a form of godliness but denying its power. Cults love to use just enough of the Bible to give an air of legitimacy, but in reality, they seek to drive a wedge between their intended victim and the truth.

there is so much to talk about. Just a little more food for thought.
Dougjb

Certainly describes Tammy's group in the past. Definitely describes the business cult. It uses evangelical terminology to paint a false veneer. It also has extensive benefits to keep the employees happy and not noticing what is going on.

[ex-shep]

Exactly Doug. If anything, I learned that when I see odd things in people's behavior and the little red flag goes up, it is not necessarily a good idea to overlook that as we would another's flaws. I now think in my mind "note to self: so and so blah, blah, blah... be careful." I think you have made a good point here and one I will be thinking on. Thanks. :)

Gut level feelings are great indicators. The old adage of where there is smoke there is fire definitely applies. Reminds of the time my wife and I went to visit a church closer to home. We travel 30 miles as it is-- but well worth it for us. When we found out there was no Sunday school, we got wondering. When the pastor said "there was a little hiccup", we went home. That was all we wanted to know.

[secrethopes]

While studying abusive churches and dysfunctional churches, I was directed to this site: http://www.womenofsubstance.org. Within this site is a boiled-down list that I found to be quite helpful: http://www.womenofsubstance.org/Culttest.htm. I'll post it below:

The Cult Test: If You Are In Doubt
Identifying Traits of Abusive Groups

We offer a shorthand list followed by a longer list of cultic traits compiled from: Recovery From Cults, by Michael D. Langone, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich, "Crazy" Therapies, by Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Combating Cult Mind Control, by Steven Hassan

Michael Langone, in his article "Cults, Violence, and the Millennium," suggests the following three characteristics as essential in the definition of a cultic group:

1. centralized control by a charismatic leader
2. an us-versus-them mentality that isolates
3. a lack of tolerance for dissent

Compiled list:

1. Control-oriented leadership – leader claims to be an all-knowing, liberated being.
2. Hierarchical structure with an elite inner circle – including leader’s assistants.
3. Group leader not accountable to any authorities, as are, for example: military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations.
4. Polarized us-versus-them, black-or-white mentality causing conflict with wider society.
5. Manipulation of members by alternating guilt/anxiety/fear/ostracism and attention.
6. Group perception of being spiritually unique/elite and separate from normal culture.
7. Denunciation of other spiritual/religious leaders and groups.
8. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about group and leader.
9. Spiritual practices emphasize experience rather than rationality.
10. Sexual abuse - leader uses power to sexually exploit members.
11. Economic exploitation of members by leader and assistants.
12. Confidentiality of members private affairs (legal, medical) violated by leader and assistants.
13. Members’ subservience to group causes them to cut or weaken ties with family, friends, and personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining group.
14. Reliance on outside professional help, doctors, therapists, etc., discouraged.
15. Leader poses as self-sacrificing divine agent who only promotes members’ well-being.
16. Service is inner directed toward the group not the surrounding community.
17. Revamping of members’ cultural/moral values to suit leader’s lifestyle and program.
18. Conformity to group’s/leader’s values, life style, mode of dress, diet, esthetics, and so on.
19. Promotion of dependence on group/leader – often disguised.
20. Important personal decisions must be approved by leader – members seek his blessing.
21. Phobia induction vis-à-vis leaving the group/leader.
22. Painful exit process – ex-members ridiculed, threatened, and dumped.

Note: If you check any of these items as characteristics of the group you are concerned about, and particularly if you check many of them, you should reexamine the group and your relationship to it. Such reexamination usually runs against the dictates of the group leaders and will be difficult for the member to do. Begin by speaking to outside health and legal professionals and ex-members. If your group is indeed healthy and non-abusive, there is nothing to fear from taking these cautionary steps.

[ex-shep]

I thought the list was too voluminous. Apparently I was wrong. Excellent citations. Thanks for the contributions.

[Jo Jo]

That list is just too sad and scary.

I mean very good too. I very good reference to have. Oh I wish I could send it to my friends that are still in that church. I just ache for two of them especially.

[ex-shep]

That list is just too sad and scary.

I mean very good too. I very good reference to have. Oh I wish I could send it to my friends that are still in that church. I just ache for two of them especially.


I can certainly empathise with you there. I lost a friend to a shepherding group 20 years ago. I spent years agonizing with why am I out and she is still in. The list is good so one does not go through THAT again.

[secrethopes]

I thought the list was too voluminous. Apparently I was wrong. Excellent citations. Thanks for the contributions.

You are welcome. I can't take credit for the citations since I found the list just as it is. I found this to be the best checklist that I came across and thought it was worth sharing.

[secrethopes]

That list is just too sad and scary. I mean very good too. I very good reference to have. Oh I wish I could send it to my friends that are still in that church. I just ache for two of them especially.

I agree. Have courage, though. In all the churches I've attended throughout my life, and that's plenty, the last is the only one that was abusive. Prayer is always the best solution. I ache for my deceived friends, as well.

I wouldn't consider the entire denomination to be abusive, however, just certain churches within the denonination. It all depends on the head pastor and chosen staff, I think.

I also wouldn't classify the entire church as a cult, only the leadership. The rest of the church is dysfunctional as a result.

[ex-shep]

I agree. Have courage, though. In all the churches I've attended throughout my life, and that's plenty, the last is the only one that was abusive. Prayer is always the best solution. I ache for my deceived friends, as well.

I wouldn't consider the entire denomination to be abusive, however, just certain churches within the denonination. It all depends on the head pastor and chosen staff, I think.

I also wouldn't classify the entire church as a cult, only the leadership. The rest of the church is dysfunctional as a result.

I certainly pray for friends who are still in their groups. I have prayed for Tammy for years. I have not seen the previous posts regarding the church the member was in; therefore I feel unqualified to comment. The current incarnation of Tammy's group has made hundredfold improvement that today I am a member of of a local church in the area where I live. There are still congregations which seem to be stuck in the same old same old, making the above scenario quite plausible.

[Jo Jo]

secrethopes wrote:
I also wouldn't classify the entire church as a cult, only the leadership. The rest of the church is dysfunctional as a result.

Yes, that is a good observation. How we all there swirled around the leadership for attention and approval - very dysfunctional. Soon it became about them and not God... even though maybe we started out with high hopes and good intentions... because of our isolation everything became poisoned and focused inward. They were scared of other people and denominations and taught us to be the same way. I was the one that started snooping outward and just didn't buy into their fears finally. So then I became the enemy.

But anyway, yes... we were like a dysfunctional family around the unhealthy parents. Some kids left... some kids are still there, and of course they call the ones that left insane. They really do - it's quite strange, but that REALLY makes the people still there scared to leave. Wonderful technique on their part.

[ex-shep]

secrethopes wrote:


Yes, that is a good observation. How we all there swirled around the leadership for attention and approval - very dysfunctional. Soon it became about them and not God... even though maybe we started out with high hopes and good intentions... because of our isolation everything became poisoned and focused inward. They were scared of other people and denominations and taught us to be the same way. I was the one that started snooping outward and just didn't buy into their fears finally. So then I became the enemy.

But anyway, yes... we were like a dysfunctional family around the unhealthy parents. Some kids left... some kids are still there, and of course they call the ones that left insane. They really do - it's quite strange, but that REALLY makes the people still there scared to leave. Wonderful technique on their part.


You might want to read Damaged Disciples by Ron Burks. Good description of the shepherding movement I was in. One thing endemic to abusive groups is the mindset that the only reality is the group itself. It does become a "twilight Zone" us vs. them mentality. The favorite thought stopping cliches of those outside or critical of the group was "you are slandering the bretheren" or "you do not have your eyes on Jesus". I was warned that I would loose my salvation if I left the bible school. I was also consigned over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. A few months out of the groups, I response was the great line of Garfield, "big fat hairy deal". Been there, seen it, done that, and got the T shirt. I should be so lucky. I also had enough knowlege to know that is serve the Lord first, not the group. I was wondering why the horse was not cooperating --- something to do with a cart. Oh, well.

Lifton refers to the mindset as dispensing of existance. Again the only reality is the group itself. The good news is you are out.

[Jo Jo]

You might want to read Damaged Disciples by Ron Burks. Good description of the shepherding movement I was in. One thing endemic to abusive groups is the mindset that the only reality is the group itself. It does become a "twilight Zone" us vs. them mentality. The favorite thought stopping cliches of those outside or critical of the group was "you are slandering the bretheren" or "you do not have your eyes on Jesus". I was warned that I would loose my salvation if I left the bible school. I was also consigned over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. A few months out of the groups, I response was the great line of Garfield, "big fat hairy deal". Been there, seen it, done that, and got the T shirt. I should be so lucky. I also had enough knowlege to know that is serve the Lord first, not the group. I was wondering why the horse was not cooperating --- something to do with a cart. Oh, well.

Lifton refers to the mindset as dispensing of existance. Again the only reality is the group itself. The good news is you are out.

Yes yes... see this is all so good... I'm reading Healing Spiritual Abuse right now, and I just started realizing that this pertained more to the larger church I was in 7 years ago... and the little church I left recently was defiantly more cultic (and spiritually abusive) in nature. So I've had to figure more stuff out about what I let myself get caught up in. ack I will take a look at that book you mentioned, because what I've heard here and what you are mentioning is exactly what was going on there.

I alternate between being really sad and giddy happy at finally knowing what was wrong. I wish I had this much knowledge when I left, but maybe that would have been a REALLY bad mistake. Yes, good news I did get out. What makes someone want to leave all their friends and stand on their own? All I know I felt like would have died if I had to spend one more Sunday with those people. In some ways I totally loved them, in others I knew they were killing who I was. I just don't get it. This whole process is unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[ex-shep]

Yes yes... see this is all so good... I'm reading Healing Spiritual Abuse right now,

I was not aware the book -- or maybe coffee has not taken hold. Will check library.

What makes someone want to leave all their friends and stand on their own? All I know I felt like would have died if I had to spend one more Sunday with those people. In some ways I totally loved them, in others I knew they were killing who I was. I just don't get it. This whole process is unbelievable. :rolleyes:

Great question. I struggled with that one for years. How I am out I have to suffer and Tammy is still in her cultic la la land. The only answer was that the way it was.

[Jo Jo]

Great question. I struggled with that one for years. How I am out I have to suffer and Tammy is still in her cultic la la land. The only answer was that the way it was.

Yeah, that pretty much is the answer to it. Quite amazing it seems. :)

[ex-shep]

Yeah, that pretty much is the answer to it. Quite amazing it seems. :)

feels comforting that I am not the only one.