Charismatics and Post-charismatics

[Katie]

This is a topic that I've thought about a lot. We were involved in charismatic churches for over 25 years, but no longer attend a charismatic church. However, I'm not sure that I would label myself as post-charismatic.

I am curious about what specific aspects of "charismania" some of you have rejected and what charismatic things you still believe in and value. I'm sure we have probably had many similar experiences, but also some different experiences.

Please share whatever you feel comfortable sharing about.

I'll start with a few of mine:

The things that I disagree with the most from the church we left are the teaching about 5-fold ministry and the overall attitude of superiority.

The 5-fold ministry teaching we were under put apostles above everyone and required absolute submission to them and the local leadership. Improper relationship with them was said to hinder God's work in your life.

The elitism in our former church is very apparent to outsiders, but the members are blind to it. Actually I think this kind of arrogance is common in charismatic circles because they honestly believe that they are more advanced in the things of the Spirit.

The things that I still value:

The baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit was an important event in my Christian walk. While it isn't something I would try to push on others, it is also something I would never walk away from or deny.

I still believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. One thing I miss in the evangelical church we now attend is the expectancy that the Spirit will move. This is kind of a fuzzy airy because it often leads to the hype that charismatics are known for.

We saw some abuses with prophetic ministry, but I still appreciate what we learned about hearing God's voice for ourselves personally.


I may add to this later, but I'd like to hear some specific things that others are sorting through regarding their charismatic experience.

[profnachos]

This is a topic that I've thought about a lot. We were involved in charismatic churches for over 25 years, but no longer attend a charismatic church. However, I'm not sure that I would label myself as post-charismatic.

I am curious about what specific aspects of "charismania" some of you have rejected and what charismatic things you still believe in and value. I'm sure we have probably had many similar experiences, but also some different experiences.

Please share whatever you feel comfortable sharing about.

I'll start with a few of mine:

The things that I disagree with the most from the church we left are the teaching about 5-fold ministry and the overall attitude of superiority.

The 5-fold ministry teaching we were under put apostles above everyone and required absolute submission to them and the local leadership. Improper relationship with them was said to hinder God's work in your life.

The elitism in our former church is very apparent to outsiders, but the members are blind to it. Actually I think this kind of arrogance is common in charismatic circles because they honestly believe that they are more advanced in the things of the Spirit.

The things that I still value:

The baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit was an important event in my Christian walk. While it isn't something I would try to push on others, it is also something I would never walk away from or deny.

I still believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. One thing I miss in the evangelical church we now attend is the expectancy that the Spirit will move. This is kind of a fuzzy airy because it often leads to the hype that charismatics are known for.

We saw some abuses with prophetic ministry, but I still appreciate what we learned about hearing God's voice for ourselves personally.


I may add to this later, but I'd like to hear some specific things that others are sorting through regarding their charismatic experience.

Katie, even though my former churches were very anti-charismatic, I recognize them all. That shows you that wolves just wear different clothes, but the parrallels are astounding.

The 5 fold ministry? The evangelical fundamentalist church has the same. The "teachers" are above reproach especially if they appear on the radio and enjoy high profile ministries.

Elitism? Ditto! The church is the epicenter of truth because of "solid teaching." I've got stories.

As I said, it is amazing how similar our stories our even though we come from very different backgrounds. There is nothing new under the sun.

[hornblower]

The first church I went too was a Methodist church that was spirit filled. So 1/2 and 1/2..........this is the first time Ive known what a five fold ministry is. Ive heard of it but I didnt know what it was. Im shocked. Man I am so glad i dont know all of this junk!!!!!!!

You'd better believe i dont believe in that! That so and so is better than so and so. LOL!

The second church i went too was Charismatic. I dont know what they were doing???????????
Making a mess.

The third church I went too which was a good one in my book because of the pastors there was very small and the pastor and asst pastor were spirit filled, it was also methodist. Then the fourth and last one was nondenominational. Some were spirit filled some werent i guess. It was very confusing I have no idea what they were doing. Except women were not allowed to go to a councel meeting. That scared me.
I believe in speaking in tongues and all of the gifts in the bible just the way it says. I believe in healing. I believe in words of knowledge and discernment. I believe anyone can have these gifts even when they dont ask if they have a personal relationship with Jesus. I recieved these things from Him and Him alone and I dont understand people trying hard to get them or any of that stuff. This is what I believe: God is real!

The story is real........just ask Him if you want to know something............ anything at all. Jesus isnt a santa clause..........He isnt about having money but if you need something or even want something.........just ask Him for it. If you dont get it maybe its because you are called to suffer with Him and that is better than getting anything. lol. You guys are going to hate me for saying all of this stuff.

Jesus is simple He isnt hard or mean He loves us. I think the reason people get so messed up about Him is because they dont know how to listen to what He is saying to you.
He is LOVE and He is good always so this is what He told me one time............"like duh.........you dont really know what love and goodness is?????????????"

Now see you probably dont think God talks that way do you? Well He does to me. Maybe He doesnt talk that way to you..........what does it matter as long as you are the one hearing Him speak to you. You have to read scripture that is a must, and for me anyway I believe it, just like that! If it says it, it means it, thats Him talking to you.

Ok so I dont understand it a lot. I dont understand so I just ask Him what the heck does that mean?????????? I dont know why you have to read the book but I guess its because Jesus is the WORD! Thats what it says. Its not magic or anything like that. You cant memorize it and then say it over and over and make things happen for you thats such a crock of bolonga.


You know Jesus is a person just like you and me so He knows what all of this is about. Hes a person and Hes GOD! Wow. Its just so cool. Like that song what if God was one of us? He is and was and its not hard, its easy.

Now Im not saying that bad things dont happen when you start doing what the bible says. Look at me Im living proof arent I?

Bad things do happen to people that believe just like they have always happend to people that dont believe. Its kind of up to us what we want to do believe or not. Now me.........I dont ever want to go back to the way I was. Living alone. When everyone let me down I had nowhere to go. Now I do. When I cant hear Him speak to me which is a lot I speak in tongues anyway. It doesnt make mne feel good it doesnt do anything for me at all that I know of. You know why I do it? Because the bible says to do it thats why and Im just stubborn enough to not care what anybody thinks of me doing it. Why should I care what people think hey Im talking to God in another language! I dont see fireworks go off or anything.

Im stubborn. I love Him. Id fly to the moon with Him or anywhere He wants me to go or at least I hope I would I absolutely think Hes the best person Ive ever known in everyway. Hes so absolutely sweet to me and humorous and Hes so great He is so so wonderful.
Im telling you what I miss about charismatic churches is the going on and on and on with worship its so yummy because I just close my eyes and talk to Him sing to Him visualize him anything with Him and He is so there.
But Hes right here with me now too so its ok if I never go again. He sits with me and talks to me anytime i quit playing around ands just start paying attention to Him.
I couldnt care less about religion of any kind anywhere. I wish they could all do right but noooo they have to get the money thing in there and their little power struggles or whatever. Its the devil thats what it is, i know his stripes. he causes all of this mully crup everywhere.
Some day we will all be where he cant hurt us or our loved ones ever again.
If I die and go to heaven and god tells me, "say you were such a bimbo believing in tongues and going around speaking like that".........well God doesnt call people bimbos, so Ill know that wasnt Him.
Anyway you see what I mean, I dont care what anybody does as long as you love Him. Well I mean if its like bad or something dont expect me to hang around but how could you do anything really bad if you love Him?
Now me I cuss. I do! So if Im going to hell for that youd better get ready because Ill quit cussing.........lol. Hey I AM A sinner!!!!!!!!!!! Bonifide sinner never said I wasnt But I can tell you I hate being one. I dont like the wrong things I do I hate them. To me though there are worse things than cussing. Like hurting peoples feelings when there is just no reason!
So yeah this is way long.........

[Jo Jo]

This is a topic that I've thought about a lot. We were involved in charismatic churches for over 25 years, but no longer attend a charismatic church. However, I'm not sure that I would label myself as post-charismatic.

I am curious about what specific aspects of "charismania" some of you have rejected and what charismatic things you still believe in and value. I'm sure we have probably had many similar experiences, but also some different experiences.

I don't know if I'm a post-charismatic either. I just won't frequent their churches or go around their atmosphere anymore. I wouldn't like that religious churchy self-righteous attitude coming from any church, though, the kind that feels it has more spiritual knowledge than others, or knows the big secret, or that they are special somehow.

As I was writing this email, I really don't know if my last church was so much charismatic or cultic. You know I think it was both. It was definitely charismatic so I will talk about some of that, and the other too. The more emails I write the more this is giving me the creeps.

I guess I've rejected the super long service. The church I recently left had 3 - 4 hour services. They didn't believe in works, which I agree with, too. That you can't work your way to heaven, but they took it one step farther and criticized everyone who did anything good that was involved in another church. They called those people self-righteous, and 'program' became a dirty word. Honestly by doing that they became that way - really self-righteousness. I understand part of that, and I think they started out really good there... but then the ideas became laws, and then judgments that ruined them. I told you, I am really screwed up here. I recently told one member, that I stayed friends with, that I was going to a little Bible study at my new church and she said, "Oh, like they have to be more holy or something." Gosh, no, it's just a basic little 1 hour bible study - people getting together, looking at the word... etc. I mean how else am I supposed to meet people maybe get past this, hopefully stay in the Word? I guess just go to their 4 hour brain washing sessions, or something.

I don't know what else I've given up. I still believe in healing, prayer and music in worship, but it's just all changed. I don't like the demonstrate. At the little church I left there were only 12, plus 6 kids, that went there for 7 years... no church growth. The one lady, who was the pastor's wife, would dance, yell out her prophesies and pray forever. We had another man there that was called a prophet. Two prophets for a group of 12. Their prayers were great, though, they could really say the right words and they really do have great oratory skill. In fact she would kind of mock others if they didn't do as well. That was called encouragement, or actually we were all close enough... it was just friendly teasing. Other times, they would actually encourage, that's what was so difficult - sometimes there was wonderful encouragement, and then others total rejection. It just seemed to destroyed my self image and got me focused on self and if I was approved this week, and if I was accepted.

It got so it was all Spiritual... God was telling them to act this way to do these things... and if there was any rudeness in it that was freedom in Christ and they weren't perfect we have to forgive them. They were following his directions. Some Sundays they would say "hi" to me, others I was ignored. They had to be quiet so they could hear his voice, and if it bothered me I wasn't sensitive to the Spirit. I mean isn't that just down right rude? I can hear God too - and he says treat other's like you would like to be treated. These were my best friends! We had gone on weekend vacations together. The attitude was this: If any of us had any problems with these things it was our problem. God had found something in us that he wanted to work out of us because 'Iron sharpens Iron'. Or we were too up tight, God wanted to free us, or we were paranoid, sensitive, etc. We needed healing, we were the weak ones.

Sorry, I got off topic there. SO..... I guess I've given up going where there is dancing, prophesies, you know out loud dramatic things like this. I still believe in them. I've just been so abused by them that I couldn't tolerate being around them in a public forum, and I can't imagine ever. I think I said in one of my other emails that I think the charismatic stuff can really get self indulgent. It feels good, we want more,, more, we want new stuff, what's next! Once you get going on it, it's like an addiction. Each week, has to be more exciting. Pretty soon it's not about God - it's about how I can feel, a God high. Soon there is no peace in that. There is not any focus on God even though we want there to be, because we are just human after all. No matter how good our intentions are. No matter how pure we start out, the temptation is too great. Isn't that what Christ is all about, thank GOD, to save us from ourselves.

[outcast]

Well, it took a few pages but I found something I can identify w/in this thread. The church I recently left was a non-denominational charismatic church.

I disliked that the church tried to make extraverts out of all the congregants. Telling us how to worship God and when to shout and so forth. My new church is like that a little, but I just won't give in to it.

I disliked that they used the spiritual gifts to try to control me. Especially the idea of absolute pastoral authority and the gift of prophesy.

I disliked that they used the things I disclosed in personal counseling sessions to gossip/slander me to my friends and other congregants when I announced I was leaving the church.

I liked the contemporary worship style and my new church uses some of the same songs. That can be difficult sometimes as it can send me into flashbacks of what it was like to be there.

I like having freedom to worship God.

I disliked the idea that all trials were from the devil. I don't think that is at all scriptural.

There's more I'm sure, but I am tired right now...

[dougjb]

I sent 17 years in the charismatic movement. When I finally left the movement, I did some reflecting on the church I left and the charismatic movement in general. I remember saying to myself that I really do not know what these people really believe. This may sound a little strange because I could probably give a detailed account of their beliefs and practices.

The difficulty with the charismatics is that [from my experience] it is impossible to pin them down on anything specific regarding doctrine. Since they hold as a premium the moving and leading of the Spirit, the bible becomes subordinate to their so-called Spirit lead understanding of the will of God. Instead of the Bible interpreting the bible, scripture is interpreted according how they believe the Spirit is moving them. So, whoever has the greater revelation becomes the final authority on the interpretation of the Bible [at the moment] and the will of God.

I am left in a state of befuddlement because their understanding of Scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit is so fluid and open ended. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to really agree of disagree on anything they say. For example, the charismatics talk about spiritual gifts, the Holy Spirit, healing, etc. and the Bible talks about many of the same things; however, does the charismatic/pentecostal understanding of things really comport with the Bible. I do not believe it does. Even though I believe that God has given gifts to the church, heals people, etc. I am hard pressed to see any kind of clear parallel between the charismatics and the Bible. Another example regarding the prophetic gifts. In the way I have seen these people exercise - the so called prophetic gifts - one cannot know whether they are hearing from God or just frolicing around on the trackless fields of their own imagination unless of course you just take their word for it.

These are just a few of my thoughts on the matter.
Dougjb

[Jerry]

Another example regarding the prophetic gifts. In the way I have seen these people exercise - the so called prophetic gifts - one cannot know whether they are hearing from God or just frolicing around on the trackless fields of their own imagination unless of course you just take their word for it.

These are just a few of my thoughts on the matter.
Dougjb

I love it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,very well expressed :D

[outcast]

Well put doug. As a theology professor/friend of mine once put it, charismatics place a great deal of authority on their own religious experiences. If they feel God showed them something, it must be God. Having only one or no scriptures to back up their experience is common.

Healing is something I still have an issue with concerning charismatics. My old church believed that God would be willing to heal everyone who wanted it. That he would heal them if their faith was high enough. Obviously, they always had their theories about why God didn't heal people. For instance, when a dear woman in the church died of cancer at 49, the pastor claimed his prophetic daughter had a dream about the woman. In this dream she told the daughter that she wanted to die b/c her husband did not want to have children with her. He spread this story around to everyone who would listen. It appalled me that he would gossip, and especially about a woman who was no longer alive to defend herself.

They always came up with theories such as this that, of course, made the person not being healed look bad. One of many reasons I don't really call myself charismatic anymore. :(

[dougjb]

Hi outcast,
I really appreciate your input and it has truly encouraged me because I can identify with you. The example you gave about the healing issue is so close to my experiences, it is almost like you have lived a life paralleled to my own - wow. Is it not absolutely amazing the excuses they use to explain away their own failures and falsehoods. Maybe the depths of deception and SELF-DECEPTION know no limits.

Glad to here from you.

More food for thought.
Dougjb

[profnachos]

Doug, I come from the opposite extreme where the authority of the Bible reigns supreme and everything begins and ends with the Bible. The end product is rigid legalism.

My former church had a lot of ex-charismatics who had horror stories like yours. They thank God for "rescuing" them from the charismatic movement, and placing them in a "biblically solid" church where the "Word of God" is faithfully preached.

They truly jumped from the frying pan to the fire. The problem is their rigid ways leave no room for the Holy Spirit. I found this statement from you very astute.

the bible becomes subordinate to their so-called Spirit lead understanding of the will of God.

In my former church, the Holy Spirit becomes subordinate to the Bible. The joke is, their Trinity consists of the Holy Father, Holy Son, and the Holy Bible. And subsequently their Bible teachers such as John MacArthur, Al Mohler, RC Sproul, etc. are their idols, leaving the field wide open for spiritual abuse.

I can say a lot more about this.

I sent 17 years in the charismatic movement. When I finally left the movement, I did some reflecting on the church I left and the charismatic movement in general. I remember saying to myself that I really do not know what these people really believe. This may sound a little strange because I could probably give a detailed account of their beliefs and practices.

The difficulty with the charismatics is that [from my experience] it is impossible to pin them down on anything specific regarding doctrine. Since they hold as a premium the moving and leading of the Spirit, the bible becomes subordinate to their so-called Spirit lead understanding of the will of God. Instead of the Bible interpreting the bible, scripture is interpreted according how they believe the Spirit is moving them. So, whoever has the greater revelation becomes the final authority on the interpretation of the Bible [at the moment] and the will of God.

I am left in a state of befuddlement because their understanding of Scripture and the work of the Holy Spirit is so fluid and open ended. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to really agree of disagree on anything they say. For example, the charismatics talk about spiritual gifts, the Holy Spirit, healing, etc. and the Bible talks about many of the same things; however, does the charismatic/pentecostal understanding of things really comport with the Bible. I do not believe it does. Even though I believe that God has given gifts to the church, heals people, etc. I am hard pressed to see any kind of clear parallel between the charismatics and the Bible. Another example regarding the prophetic gifts. In the way I have seen these people exercise - the so called prophetic gifts - one cannot know whether they are hearing from God or just frolicing around on the trackless fields of their own imagination unless of course you just take their word for it.

These are just a few of my thoughts on the matter.
Dougjb

[outcast]

Yes. There is an issue here of extremities. There must be a balance of both the word and the HS. The church I'm in now has more of this balance, but again, I've only been there 6 months.

[profnachos]

Yes. There is an issue here of extremities. There must be a balance of both the word and the HS. The church I'm in now has more of this balance, but again, I've only been there 6 months.

Exactly. Extremities are where people feel comfortable because everything is black and white, and there is no need to think through various issues and nuances. You just gobble up everything you are told, and you are good to go. That is why extremities are so attractive and most people prefer staying there.

[Jo Jo]

How do we find that fluid 'Living God' place - where we do have solid Bible teaching, but with out killing off the Holy Spirit? I come from a church recently that wanted weekly excitement from the HS so I wasn't sure if they were 'in their own imaginations' as Dougjb so eloquently said. They took over control from God... yet they called that turning control over to the HS.

[hornblower]

I think the answer lies in our own selves. Its up to God whether or not we have these feelings of Him or not. I do think a lot of what I have maybe experienced could be imagination but heres the way I look at that. I dont care one bit.

I read the word and I believe what it says. If it says to speak in tongues I do it. Ok now you can say as I myself have said to myself a thousand times OH MY GOSH what if its not real??????????????

So what if it isnt?
Thats what I ended up with in the end. I got sdo tiored of wondering about this stuff you know it can really drive you crazy? Its not worth getting all bent out of shape about. If God Himself told me right now........"you know hb youve been faking it all of these years...........Id have to say back to Him well you shouldnt have written it down then."

Im certainly not working on faking anything. I read it and I believed it. I saw that He was giving these things away thats what it says that they are gifts and I dont have the faintest idea why or what they are really for except what the bible says about it, thats enough for me. I want what He wants for me.

If its not real............ Im sorry........... thats it!
I dont care if it is or not.
Now if somebody has a gift of the HS and they tell me to go jump off a cliff now thats when Id have to say whoa buddy.
If I think God has told me something that is going to happen to me or my family and its scarey or its urgent Id have to also say.........hey youd better help me with this because if its up to me Ill mess it up you know?

We are sheep.
Not wizards.
We dont have to know everything. I dont anyway. The greatest gift of all is love. The greatest things are the fruits not the gifts anyway. I dont worry about fruit because fruit just grows. He prunes it too.........ouchey!
So more will grow.
The balance is up to us. Should we believe or not? Should we trust or not? Should we go on or give up? If I dont read the word whos fault is that? If I believe somebody who is full of lies................why did I do that?
If its all my fault and nobody elses what do I do with that?
Im forgiven! I belong to Him, to God! Does somebody want to come pick on me? You'd better watch out for my big Daddy and if you arent worried about Him you'd better go check out my big Brother? My best Friend? My Husband?
He made me and gave me my imagination and its helped me believe even more in Him.

I can close my eyes and see His robes brushing against my face. I can almost feel Him sitting bedside me. He is rubbing my back where it hurts so badly. Hes sitting right here beside me writing to you through my hands telling you how much You mean to Him dont you know that yet?
He is dying and I can see His feet.
Is that my imagination? Did it happen? Is He alive?

[Jo Jo]

I think the answer lies in our own selves. .....

We are sheep.
Not wizards.
We dont have to know everything. I dont anyway. The greatest gift of all is love.

Hi hornblower! =D

Yes, that is so good and so true. That is how we know, we know what's right within ourselves and not what those people tell us, the abusers. In what He tells us though the Bible and in himself, living in us. We don't have to know everything. Yet these people I was with had to know everything and were convenced God was revealing everything to them - about us, about things that had never been revieled in the word before. Ahhhhh why?

I knew the truth. I just chose for a while to serve them above God and I was wrong. Oh well. Whewwww, made it out of there. Now I'm a bit smarter, but I know I'm still prone to the same pitfalls of approval and places of belonging. Even though I've had excellent years of good solid Bible teaching. I suppose that is why though I could see what was going on. Oh, silly me.

[churchwhistles]

Even in the church I attended with my mother, they did come up with a better explanation about why some people aren't healed. If someone wasn't healed, then died, they would say "the Lord was ready to take him/her home." I think that is a lot better than blaming the person for "lack of faith"!:D