court case involving church discipline

[profnachos]

Here is a court case involving church discipline (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-church_26met.ART.South.Edition1.3d99e0f.html).

So the church attempted to discipline a couple living in sin (behavior is not specified), and since they didn't repent, the leadership elected to go public with their sins in accordance with Matthew 18:15-20, so the couple is suing.

Sounds like a typical story until you read more closely. Here is the key paragraph.

In this case, the man refused the private interventions and said he was quitting the church, church officials said. But Watermark's bylaws say a member "may not resign from membership in an attempt to avoid such care and correction."

So apparently the church won't allow the couple to agree to disagree and part ways, and they intended to announce their sins to the WHOLE WORLD including their employers. At least that is what the couple's attorney claims.

Fundamentalist bloggers are all over this and are acting as if, church discipline will be rendered illegal if the couple wins. Well, look at it a little closely. I don't think Matthew 18:15-20 advocated the church stalking its former members and announce their sins OUTSIDE the church.

What do these people think they are? Taliban?

[Janice]

What do these people think they are? Taliban?

Hmm..maybe they are!

[SpinningHead]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/008/17.34.html

check this article out I came across some time ago...

After reading it, I began to notice "memberships" that make me give them the right to discipline. In this guy's case, he deserved it...but going through what I went through...that leadership wasn't qualified to discipline me! They a waaaaayyyyy honging huge log in both their eyes...and they're going to remove the speck of dust from mine??? I think not! I can't even imagine what they would have done to attempt to discipline me/hubby for their own screwups. I think in many cases they were afraid to even try thanks to my HUGE black notebook of notes after notes of documentation pointing out each and every one of their decisions. Decisions that effected them bad consequences that they wanted to blame everyone but themselves. I personally would have loved the opportunity to show my book to the congregation and proove we weren't the ones needing discipline! :mad:

Personally, I would never put myself to be in a position to be "disciplined". I'm all for owning the consequences to my action...I don't need a bunch of fake empathetic suits/dresses coming to discuss my problems as they see them! (Heck, I got parents and in-laws for that! :D )

Good post...sorry it triggered a little bit. :o

[Jerry]

Here is a court case involving church discipline (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-church_26met.ART.South.Edition1.3d99e0f.html).

So the church attempted to discipline a couple living in sin (behavior is not specified), and since they didn't repent, the leadership elected to go public with their sins in accordance with Matthew 18:15-20, so the couple is suing.

Sounds like a typical story until you read more closely. Here is the key paragraph.

In this case, the man refused the private interventions and said he was quitting the church, church officials said. But Watermark's bylaws say a member "may not resign from membership in an attempt to avoid such care and correction."

So apparently the church won't allow the couple to agree to disagree and part ways, and they intended to announce their sins to the WHOLE WORLD including their employers. At least that is what the couple's attorney claims.

Fundamentalist bloggers are all over this and are acting as if, church discipline will be rendered illegal if the couple wins. Well, look at it a little closely. I don't think Matthew 18:15-20 advocated the church stalking its former members and announce their sins OUTSIDE the church.

What do these people think they are? Taliban?

Ya know,,,,,,Paul wrote that Christ would not return before there be a "Falling Away"......Many assume that those "Falling Away" are the "Bad Guys".. ;) If that event had happened in Pauls day,,,,,it probably would have been the "Bad Guys".But in todays world,,,,,,,,,,,,,well I think it is safe to say that Paul probably didn't have a "Full" depth of understanding of what he was writing ;) ........
Love Jerry

[Katie]

Profnachos,
You probably already read it, but I posted on my blog about Matthew 18 last week. I don't think that this passage was originally intended for church discipline. I believe the church has misinterpreted it in order to have a "hammer" they can use.

I feel the passage was intended to teach us how to deal with offenses and forgiveness among one another, that it refers to peer relationships, and that when power is added to the equation, the situation automatically becomes abusive.

I have never heard of a case of church discipline that I am in agreement with. The entire attitude behind it is wrong. The case that you brought up is so wrong. I hope the couple wins.

spinning head, I agree with what you said. I will listen to people who truly love me, and I believe that I'm teachable and willing to repent, however I will NEVER submit myself to discipline by a group of power hungry, self-serving a$$holes who are deluded enough to believe God is in agreement with their corrupt methods.

Not triggered at all. :cool:

[jane]

Wow When I read the article I thought, there is no way the court will uphold this....then I read the line where the judge is giving the church the right to practice their beliefs....

since when does their believes superceed the right to privacy? or the trust of confidentiality when you are seeking counseling....that article doesn't even say they sought help, it said that the church noted the man was having difficulty in his walk with Jesus and they sought to correct him.


WILL SOMEONE SHOW ME ONE TIME WHEN JESUS REVEALED SOMEONE's SINS IN A PUBLIC MANNER LIKE THIS?

The pharisees were stoning the woman to death and he quietly wrote something in the sand (it is presumed that it is their sins)..... and HE LOVED ALL OF THEM.

I CAN NOT IMAGINE what that couple is going through.............

DON'T THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO LEAVE A GROUP????

God help us all if they loose their personal rights over this church's right to religion.

jane

[mary]

Wow. Taliban, indeed.

When those in leadership ranks of a church think they should be able to impact a person's ability to earn a livelihood, they cease being a church and become more akin to organized crime. In extrapolation, they take the "church" out of the realm of protection under the First Amendment and maybe out of tax exemption, too.

What a bunch of buttheads.

In our case, when my own demon pastor told me that he'd "shown Christian love" to my husband "by not hauling him before session" in the aftermath of an argument we'd had, and he was not going to do anything else, I thought, you miserable little creep. (This was after my husband had reasonably, privately and I thought, calmly, told him to keep his hands to himself around me.) He should have been hauling himself before session. Perv. :mad:

Oh, how I hate false shepherds!!!

mary

[Hope 98]

Church discipline -

That's the reason that after 5 years of attending and serving at one particular church, I will NOT become a member.

[Hope 98]

Profnachos,
You probably already read it, but I posted on my blog about Matthew 18 last week. I don't think that this passage was originally intended for church discipline. I believe the church has misinterpreted it in order to have a "hammer" they can use.

I feel the passage was intended to teach us how to deal with offenses and forgiveness among one another, that it refers to peer relationships, and that when power is added to the equation, the situation automatically becomes abusive.


I believe this is an excellent point. I hadn't thought of it before, but it's entirely in line with everything that Jesus taught.

thanks!

[Scooter]

A court case. Oh brother. I can see how that church would attract a lot of people who want to become members so they can live in fear. NOT!! If I remember correctly, God wants our obedience to Him to come out of our trust that He cares for us and sustains us by His grace. Sounds like this church is trying to take us back to the Old Testament Law...

On another note, my husband and I attend a church with a very mature and understanding pastor. Last week, I asked hubby why he didn't want to join the church as a member. It's a great church, the pastor's definitely not abusive, and we don't forsee going anywhere else soon. His response? "I don't need to become a member of a church or put a label on myself to show that I'm a Christian." It really has me thinking about the whole membership thing.

[yeshua'smags]

Here's the link to the church's website, http://www.watermarkcommunity2.org/pages/legal , it might make you feel a little better, maybe not. I thought they were pretty good explainations.

However, I would not have wanted the snotty asses at our old "church" to think they had a right to do this to us. They wouldn't have known Jesus if He'd walked up and introduced Himself......

[SpinningHead]

Here's the link to the church's website, http://www.watermarkcommunity2.org/pages/legal , it might make you feel a little better, maybe not. I thought they were pretty good explainations.



I don't get it....who's "Ms. Roe"? I thought Mr. & Mrs. Doe weren't married but living together...who's the Roe? and are the Doe's married?

I'm so confused. :confused:

[butterfly]

The way I read it is Mrs Doe went to the church because of marrage troubles.:(

I think the trouble was Mr Doe was fooling around with Ms Roe.:D

It sounded they all went to the same church:eek:


When Ms Roe was first typed I thought it was a typo but no guess it wasn"t.

Oh Mr & Mrs Doe are married.

Well they were then now.

Now maybe Ms Roe became Mrs Doe #2

I am very sure the church didn"t marry them.
:D :D :D :D butterfly shirley:D :D

[profnachos]

Butterfly, you are pretty astute. I assumed it was a case of an unmarried couple living together, but by calling them Mr. & Mrs. Doe, they are married. And I didn't know there was another person (Ms Roe) involved in the whole equation.

Notice that we never hear about church discipline against Rev. Doe for spiritual abuse.:D

The way I read it is Mrs Doe went to the church because of marrage troubles.:(

I think the trouble was Mr Doe was fooling around with Ms Roe.:D

It sounded they all went to the same church:eek:


When Ms Roe was first typed I thought it was a typo but no guess it wasn"t.

Oh Mr & Mrs Doe are married.

Well they were then now.

Now maybe Ms Roe became Mrs Doe #2

I am very sure the church didn"t marry them.
:D :D :D :D butterfly shirley:D :D

[butterfly]

Profnachos,

The Rev. Doe is sinless!:( :D

[Satscout]

The way I read it is Mrs Doe went to the church because of marrage troubles.:(

I think the trouble was Mr Doe was fooling around with Ms Roe.:D

It sounded they all went to the same church:eek:


When Ms Roe was first typed I thought it was a typo but no guess it wasn"t.

Oh Mr & Mrs Doe are married.

Well they were then now.

Now maybe Ms Roe became Mrs Doe #2

I am very sure the church didn"t marry them.
:D :D :D :D butterfly shirley:D :D


“Mr. Doe and Mrs. Doe” are married and are members of Watermark.

“Mrs. Doe” came forward asking for help related to challenges in her marital relationship.

“Mr. Doe or Ms. Roe” did not reveal information or participate in a “private confessional” with any Watermark staff that resulted in this process.

As part of the process, “Mr. Doe and Mrs. Doe” included other people, both members at Watermark and others outside Watermark, in the discussions regarding the marital struggle. There was never a one on one confessional between Mr. Doe and Todd Wagner, or Mr. Doe and any other staff or church member that initiated the Matthew 18 process, as has been reported in the news. As “Mrs. Doe” sought help to repair the marriage, she approached the church and as a result the church continued to reach out to “Mr. Doe” and later “Ms. Roe” in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17.

The final step in the Matthew 18 process was to close the communications with those that were personally involved with “Mr. and Mrs. Doe and Ms. Roe” and to clarify the church’s need to separate from “Mr. Doe’s” continued behavior. The lawsuit was filed in April by “Mr. Doe” and “Ms. Roe” to prevent this letter from being sent to those people already involved with “Mr. Doe and Ms. Roe.” There was never a planned letter to the entire congregation -- indeed, close to 100% of the membership knew nothing of “Mr. and Mrs. Doe and Ms. Roe” until the lawsuit was filed.


In other words... Mr. Doe wants to forsake church membership, his wife, and all accountability. Mrs. Doe, wanting to save her marriage, sought help from their church. At some point other folks got involved, and when the church wanted to let those other people in the process know that they as a church were trying to react to Mr. Doe and Ms. Roe's relationship in accordance with biblical principle, they were slapped with a lawsuit.

This sounds familiar... I can think of at least two couples from our church who went through similar triangles, and both Mr Does left. Why not just let them leave and help ex-Mrs. Doe put her life back together? *sigh*

[profnachos]

In other words... Mr. Doe wants to forsake church membership, his wife, and all accountability. Mrs. Doe, wanting to save her marriage, sought help from their church. At some point other folks got involved, and when the church wanted to let those other people in the process know that they as a church were trying to react to Mr. Doe and Ms. Roe's relationship in accordance with biblical principle, they were slapped with a lawsuit.

Excellent point. Mr. Doe looks to be a lost cause and publically shaming him will do no good to save the marriage.

So what are the anonymous names that they use after Doe and Roe? Hoe? Wouldn't that be an opt name to use if a mistress is involved in the whole picture.

They better not use Choe because that is too close to my name Cho.


[COLOR="Indigo"]This sounds familiar... I can think of at least two couples from our church who went through similar triangles, and both Mr Does left. Why not just let them leave and help ex-Mrs. Doe put her life back together? *sigh*

Panting....Please tell us more. It's turning out to be a boring Saturday night. I can use some juicy stories. :D:D

[Satscout]

Panting....Please tell us more. It's turning out to be a boring Saturday night. I can use some juicy stories. :D:D

*raises eyebrow*

Not much to tell. In story #1, a marriage of 49 years broke up when Mr. Doe-1 had an affair with Ms. Roe-1 and dumped Mrs. Doe-1. What made it impact us was that Mr. Doe-1 was one of our trombone players and Mrs. Doe-1 a cellist in our church orchestra.

In story #2, Dr. Doe-2 dropped Mrs. Doe-2 and his two teenage kids after having an affair with Ms. Roe-2. Mrs. Doe-2 and Ms. Roe-2 are both nurses.... Mrs. Doe-2 and Daughter Doe-2 are sopranos in our choir.

What makes it hard for me is Dr. Doe-2 still works for my hospital, so I get his dictations sometimes. It took me a while after it first happened before I could hear his voice without getting sick. :mad: :( Both Ms. Roes became a second Mrs. Doe.

Mr. Doe-1 showed up at an orchestra rehearsal a week or two ago... no remorse at all for the affair or what he did to Mrs. Doe-1, who is no longer at our church. Our music minister gently informed him that it wasn't appropriate for them to allow him to be a worship leader if he had blatant stuff like that going on in his life, even if the original breakup was about five years ago. Ms. Roe-1, if I understand correctly, is a pianist at another church. :eek: I didn't inquire further.

Dr. Doe-2 married the nurse he was working with. They have since had a baby. He doesn't have anything to do with our church, Mrs. Doe-2, or his (older) kids. What made it hurt so much was his callousness about it. He just plain didn't care about them anymore.

I was not privy to what if any "church discipline" may have happened in either case at the time they were going down. When they left, though, it was without a fight. If someone just chooses to go their own way like that, I don't see any point in trying to force submission to some church governance. *sigh*

[profnachos]

Thanks. :o

A marriage of 49 years. Wow.

*raises eyebrow*

Not much to tell. In story #1, a marriage of 49 years broke up when Mr. Doe-1 had an affair with Ms. Roe-1 and dumped Mrs. Doe-1. What made it impact us was that Mr. Doe-1 was one of our trombone players and Mrs. Doe-1 a cellist in our church orchestra.

In story #2, Dr. Doe-2 dropped Mrs. Doe-2 and his two teenage kids after having an affair with Ms. Roe-2. Mrs. Doe-2 and Ms. Roe-2 are both nurses.... Mrs. Doe-2 and Daughter Doe-2 are sopranos in our choir.

What makes it hard for me is Dr. Doe-2 still works for my hospital, so I get his dictations sometimes. It took me a while after it first happened before I could hear his voice without getting sick. :mad: :( Both Ms. Roes became a second Mrs. Doe.

Mr. Doe-1 showed up at an orchestra rehearsal a week or two ago... no remorse at all for the affair or what he did to Mrs. Doe-1, who is no longer at our church. Our music minister gently informed him that it wasn't appropriate for them to allow him to be a worship leader if he had blatant stuff like that going on in his life, even if the original breakup was about five years ago. Ms. Roe-1, if I understand correctly, is a pianist at another church. :eek: I didn't inquire further.

Dr. Doe-2 married the nurse he was working with. They have since had a baby. He doesn't have anything to do with our church, Mrs. Doe-2, or his (older) kids. What made it hurt so much was his callousness about it. He just plain didn't care about them anymore.

I was not privy to what if any "church discipline" may have happened in either case at the time they were going down. When they left, though, it was without a fight. If someone just chooses to go their own way like that, I don't see any point in trying to force submission to some church governance. *sigh*

[jane]

OH Guys that's nothing............


the deacon in our church was my husband's mentor. The guy couldn't keep a job, was really dysfunctional...and I could talk for hours.

I initially met him my through work....licensed him and his wife for foster care....they introduced me to the church that I left.

LONG STORY SHORT?

He had an affair (oh yeah, this was the Church PROPHET).........the pastor told my close friend (his wife) that she had no proof-- (OH BOY< SHE DID HAVE PROOF!).

She stays in the church, single mom of two foster children. He leaves the church.

She gets kicked off the worship team for being late a few times....anyone try to parent two children by themeselves????work to support them??? Still be in leadership, all the ministries and the worship team??????

So a year or so goes by.......she slowly looses interest in the church......he shows up. He returns, enters back as if nothing had ever happened, a guy in the church gives him a job.

HE MOVES INTO THE APARTMENT ABOVE MY FRIEND, with his girlfriend.....so that they can have joint custody of the child..............


CRAZY????

NOPE. Yesterday I went to my girlfriend's party....she adopted the younger foster child. She is moving in with her new boyfriend......the ex husband deacon prophet WAS THERE!


Personally, I AM SO HAPPY THAT SHE HAS THIS NEW BOYFRIEND!!!

STILL WONDERING WHY THE EX WAS THERE.....

her brother (oh yeah, an elder in our ex church) won't go to the party because she is living in sin......


Well, when she first became a christian she lived with the guy (deacon, prophet) so they were talked into getting married....

SHE AINT STUPID ENOUGH TO DO IT AGAIN FOR THOSE HYPOCRITES!


and I support her! Go ahead tell me that I am a bad christian.....but that church is INSANE and they gave her LOTS OF INSANE ADVICE AND TREATMENT.


I am thrilled to see her happy, the stress out of her life.....and full of peace that she never had when she was a slave to the church we were in.

did ya follow that story??

jane

[hoipoloi]

:)

I have just read this thread with great interest and it gells with some of my experience.

In the past, I have been badly spiritually abused but, since the main bully has retired to a church well away from here (poor sods at his new church), my anger has nearly gone. But so has my trust.

There is now a chance for real renewal and the new pastor (a good man) has started rebuilding the church. But he has started a special list of members who give their details to be printed on a register list, this list being distributed only amongst those on the list.

This smacks of first and second class citizenship, especially since social pressures are put on people to be registered. But the downside is church discipline (if you are on the list you have to be committed).

Whereas the church is improving, and Katie's a$$holes are in the descendent, the possibility of a bullying elite spreading gossip into the community is still very strong. Jane is right in saying that Jesus would not have done this.

And so, my wife and myself, like Hope98 and Scooter, will not become registered members: we do not need a lable to show that we are Christian.

I also like Maggie's quote: question all authority: if it is honourable, it will not mind being questioned, and it won't be afraid to say "I don't know".

An excellent thread.

[gracefull]

I was "disciplined" by a fundie "church." I use the term church in quotations because I think fundies are really more of a cult. I said something about the pastor's adult daughter and the pastor gathered part of the deacon board together and called me to task. I read a letter of apology I had written. They asked if I had anything to say for myself and I said no because I knew anything I said would be used against me. Some of the deacons didn't show up for the meeting. I was told they were unavailable. Later I found out it was because they saw this as wrong and wanted no part of it. The two deacons that were there both quoted a passage from Romans about "having love for the brethren" and they said that God gave them both that same passage. I said maybe that was God telling them how they were to treat me in this situation, but instead they kept yelling at me and saying "You did not have love for the brethren." I was told that I was to leave the church immediately and that I was not allowed to mention this to anyone else. When I said what about the steps of church discipline mentioned in Matthew, I was told -well you tried to call a couple of the deacons about this so I guess that counts. The next week, I went into the bank and the pastor's daughter's best friend worked there. She had to wait on me and she was very nice and acted like nothing was the matter. (I was afraid to go into the bank.) I went to the manager and complimented the girl on how professional she was and that she did not let her personal life influence her work in waiting on me. That was all I said. I thought I was doing something nice and repaying evil with good. I got a call from the deacon board about it and saying that I was trying to spread slander by doing that and that I had defied them by talking about what happened. I tried to go to another church but the pastor spread the story to that pastor and I was not allowed to become a member. I wasn't even allowed to help reshelve books in the library. The same thing happened with every church I tried to go to. I only went to other fundie churches because that was the cult I was in and I thought they were the only true churches. The pastor and his daughter slandered me to the point where I couldn't go anywhere in that town and had to move out of the town. I thought about suing but the Bible says you cannot sue christians. I prayed that God would do something to shut this man up and one day when he was playing softball a freak accident occurred and he got his jaw shattered with a softball and had to have his jaw wired shut. I think that was God's way of stopping his slander. It was too late for me though. Our lives were destroyed by the gossip and slander. I don't consider it church discipline. Fundamentalists are all about power and control and domination. They make me want to vomit.

[profnachos]

I was "disciplined" by a fundie "church." I use the term church in quotations because I think fundies are really more of a cult. I said something about the pastor's adult daughter and the pastor gathered part of the deacon board together and called me to task. I read a letter of apology I had written. They asked if I had anything to say for myself and I said no because I knew anything I said would be used against me. Some of the deacons didn't show up for the meeting. I was told they were unavailable. Later I found out it was because they saw this as wrong and wanted no part of it. The two deacons that were there both quoted a passage from Romans about "having love for the brethren" and they said that God gave them both that same passage. I said maybe that was God telling them how they were to treat me in this situation, but instead they kept yelling at me and saying "You did not have love for the brethren." I was told that I was to leave the church immediately and that I was not allowed to mention this to anyone else. When I said what about the steps of church discipline mentioned in Matthew, I was told -well you tried to call a couple of the deacons about this so I guess that counts. The next week, I went into the bank and the pastor's daughter's best friend worked there. She had to wait on me and she was very nice and acted like nothing was the matter. (I was afraid to go into the bank.) I went to the manager and complimented the girl on how professional she was and that she did not let her personal life influence her work in waiting on me. That was all I said. I thought I was doing something nice and repaying evil with good. I got a call from the deacon board about it and saying that I was trying to spread slander by doing that and that I had defied them by talking about what happened. I tried to go to another church but the pastor spread the story to that pastor and I was not allowed to become a member. I wasn't even allowed to help reshelve books in the library. The same thing happened with every church I tried to go to. I only went to other fundie churches because that was the cult I was in and I thought they were the only true churches. The pastor and his daughter slandered me to the point where I couldn't go anywhere in that town and had to move out of the town. I thought about suing but the Bible says you cannot sue christians. I prayed that God would do something to shut this man up and one day when he was playing softball a freak accident occurred and he got his jaw shattered with a softball and had to have his jaw wired shut. I think that was God's way of stopping his slander. It was too late for me though. Our lives were destroyed by the gossip and slander. I don't consider it church discipline. Fundamentalists are all about power and control and domination. They make me want to vomit.

I am sorry nursie. A story like yours, I believe is way to common.

That is the biggest problem with church discipline - the imbalance of power. If I have a problem with the pastor, then I should be able to confront him just as he can. We are all equal before Christ and churches have created a man made hierarchy to exert power and control as you well pointed out.

[yeshua'smags]

Hi nursie! Welcome to the club!;) :D

We have all been used and abused by "the church", and have been labeled rebels and renegades. You are in good company!:D :D :D

[mary]

Nursie, I echo the "welcomes" here. It sounds as though you've been put through a waking nightmare.

I had an attorney send a warning letter to my former "pastor." I don't consider that it was a violation of 1 Corinthians 6:6 et seq. because I never saw any "fruits of the Spirit" in this pastor that would indicate that he was my brother in Christ. So I treated him as I would have treated anyone in "the world:" I took my dispute with him to a member of the state bar. Same could be said of those who mistreated you, it sounds to me. You may think that's a little harsh, but the way you described your situation and what was done to you, no...

Please feel free to post here whatever and whenever you want to. We're here to help in whatever way we can.

I am so sorry about what happened to you. Nursie, you're in my prayers...

mary