I was thinking today..........

[hornblower]

Always a dangerous prospect...............
I was thinking about an earlier post I had made about this fellow teacher in this school where i worked going around and alwauys spouting out that "women dont want to submit". I was consequently "disciplined for getting upset with this man.

Since my posting and your replies to me now my thinking about that entire episode have changed so completely.

You know this has a lot to do with prophesy if anyone is still interested in that subject. I think I will always be interested in it.
What has me the most 'derailed' about the entire incident is that God told me the night before it happened as i was taking a bath that "I was going to be disciplined". I knew without a doubt it was God speaking to me.
I wasnt afraid at all .............I didnt know what being disciplined meant?????????

Of course the principal came to me the next day telling me that I was going to be'disciplined'. The fear started choking me right away then! I could feel it everywhere and then it came the whole awful everything the bible the scripture being read from my mouth the looks on all of those peoples faces...............some of them smirking..................

Then the shame the complete and utter shame of it all as if I had been raped in front of people...that is what it felt like!


Now what I never could get over is that GOD told me first!!!!!!!!!
Thats not the only time He has done that either. I dont know what I think or feel about that at all.

You know what? Now I think Im on top of this for the first time ever in my whole stupid life. I see what I did wrong!
God told me thats what they were going to do He didnt tell me He agreed with them and heres the thing............God knows I know whats right and whats wrong or I should know it anyway!
It was so wrong what that man did to me and those people. Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

In the first place what is he doing going around saying that? I had every right in this world to get mad at him. Maybe not that mad, that was a mistake, but he shouldnt be allowed to go around in a work environment and spout off about women, about anything concerning them.

Oh all kinds of things came to me about what he did to me, and his buddy too, the principal.
You know what, they can rot and thats all I have to say about them!



SHAME on them for doing that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are in BIG time trouble! Yes Im mad! But guess what Im mad at the right people this time. Im not mad at myself anymore.......... I didnt do anything wrong except for one big time thing. I didnt stick up for myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didnt fight back and i should have because if i would have fought back I would have won because I WAS RIGHT and God is always on the side of the righteous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am righteous! I am righteous because God has made me to be that way. Jesus died to heal me from my vicimization. Im no victim any more honey!!!!!!!!!!!

Yowzah! I get a little excited about these things, ill settle down in a minute:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :rolleyes:

[secrethopes]

I did not read your first post. I'm new here.

God often speaks to us when we are willing to listen. ;) I, too, have been told in advance of things that were to happen.

It is a common misperception that women are to submit to men. The Bible only says wives are to submit to their husbands, not women to men. And husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church; Christ died for the church.

Directly before wives are told to submit to their husbands, the Bible says we are all to submit "to one another out of reverence for Christ." This is directed at Christians in general and implies a multi-directional respect.

I believe that we as Christians should do our best to represent Christ to others. This sometimes means behaving respectfully toward others even when they do not return the same. But I also believe we can then go through the proper channels to seek assistance when we are mistreated. We can also pray for God to intervene.

Submission should not be about power. It should be a way in which we show love and respect. We can do this by giving in to another's desires or admitting that someone might have skills that we do not and allowing that person to use those skills.

This is a tender subject for me. I hope I've not made anyone feel uncomfortable or lectured. :D

[peanut]

Welcome Secrethopes:)

I pray that you find the support here you search for. You have come to a good place with some very loving and supportive people. I can't imagine that you have offended anyone. This is a safe place where you can speak your heart and mind.

I too have been told by God of things to come. Unfortunately, I have always questioned whether it was coming from God before the event but once it transpired, I knew it was from the Father.

Again, welcome. I look forward to getting to know you.

Peace,
Peanut

[peanut]

Yea Hornblower!!!!!!

Sounds like a breakthrough.........

Peace,
Peanut

[Illuminated]

Yowzah! I get a little excited about these things, ill settle down in a minute:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :rolleyes:Settle down??? Settle down??? xxx Heavens no!:eek: xxx Scream it from the rooftops!!!!

I am righteous!!! I am a child of God! I am loved by God!
I am saved by the blood of Jesus, the Saviour of the world!
I am the head and not the tail!!!
There is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus!!
;)

[hornblower]

Yowzah Illuminated!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just dont know what the deal is but ive got to believe that its from coming here, talking about the offences, getting feedback and then assimilating this stuff. Ive kept it down for so long!
I had a councelor but I dont know somehow when I would tell her something like this situation she would look at me seriously and say "now how did that make you feel?" Bless her heart, she meant well I know and I in no way want to say anything is wrong with that but what I needed is for SOMEONE ELSE TO GET MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now you and I know how UNspiritual THAT is! Lol.
At first when Jerry would react like this to different posts like he was SO mad it kind of took me back. Then I began to see................yeah this is what I need and have always needed it.
When some body does something to us that is cruel and wrong why do we just stand there and take the stupid thing??????????

I was always like this. I was a raving maniac at home but little miss suffering servant anywhere else.
Its just dumb.
I do agree secrethopes that there are channels that a person should maybe go through but you know what?????????

I have been in a few places that there was no channel at all except Christ. The surprising thing is that He was more than enough channel for me when I would take Him at His word that He loves me died for me and I dont have to keep on putting up with these silly antics in churches.

Ill never forget the first time I ever had a situation happen about submission. It was in the very first church we belonged too. A friend(?) told me I was too masculine and something was wrong with me.........?????????
I was sort of shocked. I had never been told that before thats for sure, but there was this little grain of truth in it for me. I have always been opinionated like my Dad. We were all taught to have opinions and to think and study on our own and not believe anything that was just handed to us.........that was my Dad for you.

So I always had the sense that something was different about me living down here in the south. Especially when I began going to church.
None of the women ever said anything anytime.
Only the men.
I went to church being myself and so when I went to Sunday School I spoke up when these men were wrong or when I felt God was telling me to speak up. I studied on my own at home practically eating the bible night and day. It was like way down inside of me.
The men seemed to like me to speak up like it was refreshing for them. But the women>>>>>>>>>>>whew!
I could tell........somethings not right. Now my husband always knew who and what I was like. He is quiet. I am not, thats the way both of us are depending on the subject. I sometimes spout off on politics and philosphy and nature and art of course. He on business and sports.
Things worked out for us fine.
He never did like to read except the news paper. I never read anything until I became a christian..........then i couldnt get enough of it.
Anyway we left the Sunday School to teach children, both of us. I could smell a rat in that sunday school room and I didnt want to stick around to be ratted on..........besides I learned a long time ago from my Mother that sitting around talking is just fine but it sure doesnt get the work done!
Duh! I had to learn that one the hard way by having my children one right after the other.

So anyway this so called friend when she said this to me.........it was like someone punched me in the stomach. The thought that my husband would someday not love me terrifies me........having come from a very abusive first and second marriage.........a good man is hard to find.

So I went to the pastors wife about all of this. She was the most feminine woman Ive ever met in my life and the most godly too. Ill never forget her telling me the story of some jerk coming up to her and telling her to submit. She thought my friend was crazy and she added shes just jealous..........and then she put in her two cents to be sure I only submitted to my husband that meaning if hes ok with me than nobody has the right to lord anything over me ever.

I studied the scriptures concerning this over and over again and I still do but I tell you...............its hard for someone like me who has been so abused by men. Physically sexually everyway there is I have let myself be trampled down.

Its so hard to pick myself up and stand up to these people. Thank God and this place that God has blessed us all for being here and helping each other through all of these things.

I AM not going to get beaten down any longer by these roving power hungry people and that IS what its about.
Nothing but power!
What Ive got to do is start believing that God is the one who has all of the power there is! All that I will ever need for any situation.
Yowzah!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[secrethopes]

I have been in a few places that there was no channel at all except Christ. The surprising thing is that He was more than enough channel for me when I would take Him at His word that He loves me died for me and I dont have to keep on putting up with these silly antics in churches.

Ill never forget the first time I ever had a situation happen about submission. It was in the very first church we belonged too. A friend(?) told me I was too masculine and something was wrong with me.........????????? I was sort of shocked. I had never been told that before thats for sure, but there was this little grain of truth in it for me. I have always been opinionated like my Dad. We were all taught to have opinions and to think and study on our own and not believe anything that was just handed to us.........that was my Dad for you.

The South is very different, especially in the Bible Belt. The church we just left expects women to be silent workhorses. The women staff is paid significantly less than the men and they are also constantly told they are just emotional if they voice concerns. We now know that this church practices coersive persuasion on any leaders, staff members, or helpers. This did not work on us.

Any women who are assertive at this church are labeled as unsubmitting, troublemakers, or "broken." Some have also been told they behave as men. If the women have self-esteem issues yet still dare to speak up then they are told they are overly emotional or hypersensitive. I understand where you are coming from.

We left the church without any personal complications. We were advocating for others who came to us. The healing ministries were being used to control people. Once the person shared any issues, they would then have the past used against him/her. No one was allowed to ever really heal and if they were healing they were seen as threats since this often led to questions the leadership did not wish to answer.

I agree that often Christ is the only advocate and the only channel. It is a good thing He is the ultimate and most powerful! Our names are being slandered for exposing the church we left. The higher ups wanted no part of it and do not plan to do anything.

We have moved on but they continue to do their best to interfere and cause problems for us. They want to bully us back into the fold so they can say we really were the problem and had come to repentance. They wish to keep it "all in the family." This is not going to happen. We know they are harming the Kingdom and attacking those who often need the most care. We continue to pray for them and know that God's justice will prevail. We are counseling many whom they've hurt.

[secrethopes]

Welcome Secrethopes:)

I pray that you find the support here you search for. You have come to a good place with some very loving and supportive people. I can't imagine that you have offended anyone. This is a safe place where you can speak your heart and mind.

I too have been told by God of things to come. Unfortunately, I have always questioned whether it was coming from God before the event but once it transpired, I knew it was from the Father.

Again, welcome. I look forward to getting to know you.

Peace,
Peanut

Thank you, Peanut. I feel welcomed. I'm no longer used to speaking my heart and mind, but I will do my best. :)

[yeshua'smags]

Hi Secrethopes! I like your name, I have a few of those myself!:)

I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to talk to us! We are happy to have you!:p

[mary]

I believe that we as Christians should do our best to represent Christ to others. This sometimes means behaving respectfully toward others even when they do not return the same. But I also believe we can then go through the proper channels to seek assistance when we are mistreated. We can also pray for God to intervene.

Submission should not be about power. It should be a way in which we show love and respect. We can do this by giving in to another's desires or admitting that someone might have skills that we do not and allowing that person to use those skills.

This is a tender subject for me. I hope I've not made anyone feel uncomfortable or lectured. :D

Welcome, secrethopes! Glad to have you with us! I hope you enjoy this forum, that you find fellowship and help here and that you participate frequently! :) (I do believe that the Lord blesses us with each new person who comes to this forum - every one.)

I basically agree with what you said, but there are places where the steps you outlined just don't apply. I, for example, was prevented from going through proper channels for redress of my own incidents of abuse by a "pastor." (Past threads, "Was this spiritual abuse?" from Nov., 2005 and "Vindication" from a bit later contain my story, along with a couple of other threads.) After "pastor" threw me out of the church, my own elders ignored me; the presbytery threw me overboard and the denomination's headquarters' (I almost typed "deadquarters;" that would have been more apt ;) ) message board moderators banned me. More egregious even than the -ahem- physical and verbal abuse that "pastor" heaped on me were the con-artist schemes by which he "took" some elderly people in the congregation for thousands of dollars. That was also ignored by those who should have provided for some sort of oversight process here.

It's been months and there has been no (earthbound) justice. I refused to stay silent, though, or to continue to beat a dead horse. There are legal means that can be used against a person who obviously is not a brother in Christ, thus bypassing the admonitions of 1 Corinthians 6:6-8. You have to be pretty sure of that first, of course, and I was. Here's what I did:

1) Reported his suspected criminal activities to the Deportation and Criminal Investigations Dept. of this Citizenship and Immigration Services, a division of Homeland Security (this individual is a new U. S. citizen and, because he took a false oath of citizenship when he swore to uphold the laws of the United States, I thought these folks would be interested. They were.).

2) Reported the criminal activities to appropriate county law enforcement personnel and saw to it that an actual complainant also filed a report.

3) To combat his slander of me after he threw me out, I had an attorney send him a slander warning letter. I wrote it; it wasn't particularly nice, but it did the job. It shut his foul trap, at least as to what he was saying at the time.

The man is insane; he's on steroids as well, so I knew what I was up against. I wasn't fighting insanity with insanity, but rather I was letting him know that someone in this country has him figured out. I don't know what he did where he came from and I don't want to know. I do pray for God's intervention by means of the promises He made to us regarding His disposition of false shepherds (Jeremiah 23; Ezekiel 34). God will get him; I don't think I need to do anything else, much as I'd like to.

Anyway, once again, welcome, secrethopes! Hope to talk to you again!

mary

[secrethopes]

I basically agree with what you said, but there are places where the steps you outlined just don't apply. I, for example, was prevented from going through proper channels for redress of my own incidents of abuse by a "pastor."

Are you sure we didn't, at one time, attend the same church? :D

We went through the proper channels, to no avail, and then went to the national level. We were told (although portrayed as a unified organization) that each church was autonomous and could not be held accountable unless a staff member from the church requested intervention.

We've witnessed a number of incidences of bullying, banning, blocking, etc. Most of the time the person in control was the abusive one, not the one being blocked, thrown out, or ostracized.

Thank you for the welcome. :)

[secrethopes]

Hi Secrethopes! I like your name, I have a few of those myself!:)

I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to talk to us! We are happy to have you!:p


Thank you for the welcome. I'm glad you like my name. :)

[Jerry]

The problem I see is insecure men who tend to lift out of context any scripture passage that even remotely,,, no matter how twisted the interpretation,,,suggests that men are somehow divinely appointed over women.This is NOT the case at all !!!!! When Paul suggests that women submit ,,,,,,,in the very next verse Paul talks about the requirements imposed upon the husbands as a prerequisite for submission to occur.Husbands are required to Love their wives as Christ Loved the Church.Now this may be way off base here,but I am guessing that means with complete and unwavering devotion ;) hmmmm but I could be wrong :rolleyes: Yeah right!!!!! :D Ladys,,,,,nowhere in scripture are you required to submit yourselves to a man that is behaving like a "Dork"
Love Jerry

[hornblower]

Any women who are assertive at this church are labeled as unsubmitting, troublemakers, or "broken." Some have also been told they behave as men. If the women have self-esteem issues yet still dare to speak up then they are told they are overly emotional or hypersensitive. I understand where you are coming from.



Yep been there know that and i do live in the bible belt. Its all so sad isnt it? Often I think of that word Biblebelt and wonder where it came from since belt in the bible also means the belt of Truth?

As I go along day after day, each day getting a little tiny bit more healed, at least I hope so, and stronger within myself and the love Jesus has for me, I realise that I am not a new thing at all in this suffering Ive encountered. Jesus went through all of this and so did all of His true followers. They were all thrown out and they were all treated this way many much much worse.
Even by each other?????????
Look at Peter and Paul?
In the end you have to stand true to yourself and what you know God is showing you always able to be open to correction in some way or other but able to be courageous and face the challenges of going on with Jesus to the end.

I was wrong about my abuse. I saw it as something I had failed at. I did fail God in some ways but God is not like that anyway. He doesnt see me as failing in anything. He sees me as trying. Thats all He has ever wanted was for us to try. He is a GOOD parent. He is Good not cruel or expecting us to keep killing ourselves at something that is rotten anyway...............
what I mean by rotten is that the spiritual atmosphere I was in was like that. Its not flesh and blood I was fighting there ar anywhere...........its rotten dark evil thats what it is.
Anytime there is no love or freedom to be who you really are..........no freedom to ask for prayer for your sick daughter or talk about your past or anything its a rotten place.
Basically only God can deal with it. What I need to do is learn to love myself and heal up.
My Daddy wants me too.
God bless you Secret hopes for helping those poor people.:o

[hornblower]

Thats it Jerry and thankyou for reinterating it.........

The problem I see is insecure men who tend to lift out of context any scripture passage that even remotely,,, no matter how twisted the interpretation,,,suggests that men are somehow divinely appointed over women.

It was always about egos. I see that now. Power hungry people. Very dangerous. At least since then I have met a few men in the clergy who were not like that at all. Hard to believe but I have. They have admitted to me..........that they knew they were not supposed to even be payed for doing theior jobs really but what can they do ? thats how it is. They have families to support. These dear sweet workers for the gospel and workers for healing the body of Christ too eventually lost their positions in the institutionalised religions of our day. I know they are ok though because of who they are in Gods kingdom......they are rich in His eyes!

Sometimes I think back to the way it was when I went to these places, these churches I was in, and I think to myself.................why did I get insnared in it?

This is the part I blame myself for. I did not seek His will enough to follow Him completely. He knew I couldnt because its all about growing up in Him. I see that now and dont blame myself so much.

Where to go from here I dont know but He does. Thats enough for me right now. Im in such a good place this minute anyway..........lol.:D

[Jerry]

Im in such a good place this minute anyway..........lol.:D

Yeah,,,,,,,,it kinda sounds like it ;) ,,,,,Good for you sweetie :D
Love Jerry

[hornblower]

Wow Mary!

[QUOTE][It's been months and there has been no (earthbound) justice. I refused to stay silent, though, or to continue to beat a dead horse. There are legal means that can be used against a person who obviously is not a brother in Christ, thus bypassing the admonitions of 1 Corinthians 6:6-8. You have to be pretty sure of that first, of course, and I was. Here's what I did:
/QUOTE]

Are you like way too cool or what????????????
I think you are! You are my hero!:D

How brave you are and I commend you for all of it from the core of my being.

Im curious though...........in my own situation I guess there would be nothing I could have done is there? Not that I want too you understand but if someone isnt actually doing a criminal activity what can you do if they are just hurting people? You do realise im not the only person that was hurt at these places. I know Im not.
Oh well at least you got to do something about him that is so great of you...dont you know God in his heaven was rooting for you all of the way?:D

[mary]

Awww, shucks, Hornblower... (Looking down at feet, red-faced, shuffling a bit... :) ) That's so very nice of you!!! Oh no, I definitely don't think of myself as cool or a hero or anything. If I'd been cool or as smart as my resume seems to indicate or as I am now, I would have seen that "pastor" was eventually going to make some moves on me, maybe about two years before he did. I also would have questioned, when he told me privately about some amounts of money that people were "insisting" on giving him, whether that was the truth or whether he was really bilking them... And why couldn't I see that he was probably using steroids? His physique certainly was a dead giveaway of that... No, I got smart late in this game. I thought I could trust this guy; I believed what he said from the pulpit rather than what he said and did during our "counseling" sessions and even sotto voce during "fellowships."

If people are slandering you according to the laws of your state or province, then go after them, by all means. Whatever it takes. If "pastor" has taken money under false pretenses, pursue it as far as the law will allow. These people shouldn't stand on pedestals; the only one who can rightfully do that is God. The Lord will be honored when His people pursue righteousness and truth. So they take down a false shepherd... So what? It's all for the good.

Your story and those of everyone else here are, by turns, poignant, hair-raising, outrageous and sad. I'd like for there to be earthly justice for everyone, but I know it'll be in the Lord's timing and we just have to "be still and know that He is God." And I know that He doesn't need help; He demands our adoration and love. Sometimes, loving Him means pursuing bad dudes. That's all...

Love,

mary

[mary]

Are you sure we didn't, at one time, attend the same church? :D

We went through the proper channels, to no avail, and then went to the national level. We were told (although portrayed as a unified organization) that each church was autonomous and could not be held accountable unless a staff member from the church requested intervention.

We've witnessed a number of incidences of bullying, banning, blocking, etc. Most of the time the person in control was the abusive one, not the one being blocked, thrown out, or ostracized.

Thank you for the welcome. :)

You're welcome!!!

They were two-faced nincompoops, secrethopes. On the one hand, you go through proper channels and then when you do, they jump up and down and yell, "Autonomy! Autonomy!" How low is that?!

Seems to be if they provide "channels" (not those that you swim in; those that are, well, supposed to be effective), they should be estopped from claiming autonomy.

Bunch of lowlifes... :) :D :eek:

mary

[secrethopes]

The problem I see is insecure men...

Yes, they are. I have seen this particular group move throughout blogging communities and attack other Christians, even for their opinions. Yet they will then twist the truth of who Jesus is to those who appear unchurched and imply that people can remain unchanged even after they accept Him as Lord: the ends justify the means.

They also often wear the name of pastor like bumper stickers. The problem is, they are unteachable and also see their beliefs as the only valid beliefs. They sometimes have no formal education and I have seem people blocked solely for quoting Scripture on their sites.

They reason it is their site and no one else has the right to promote their beliefs, even if the person was just trying to understand how they can promote what they are saying and asking a question. They will travel in packs, following the people they block, and all attack at once.

Many have closed their own blogs since there is no reasoning with them. They also behave as if there exists only one side of the coin unless it benefits them to say there are actually two. Truth exists only for the moment with them so it is best to just bow out.

[secrethopes]

Basically only God can deal with it. What I need to do is learn to love myself and heal up. My Daddy wants me too. God bless you Secret hopes for helping those poor people.:o

Isn't it good to have such an amazing Daddy? I could not manage on my own, even with the incredible family I've been provided. :)

Everyday I wake up feeling I need to do more. But God is in control and I can trust Him. I understand now why I was led to this church and no longer condemn myself for not seeing the truth sooner. I was there to witness the truth so I could meet these people and be there to help them in their time of need. Most had begun to doubt what they had experienced and to question their sanity. I am glad we could be there to restore their faith in God and to help them realize the truth. :)

[secrethopes]

On the one hand, you go through proper channels and then when you do, they jump up and down and yell, "Autonomy! Autonomy!" How low is that?! Seems to be if they provide "channels" (not those that you swim in; those that are, well, supposed to be effective), they should be stopped from claiming autonomy.

Exactly. :rolleyes:

I've been relating to the Psalms, lately. Sometimes I am livid at what they are doing, but then at others, I pity them. At times I cry for their children, and then I find myself praying for justice to be done.

I'm glad that God's the One in control. :D