OldEnt
10-26-2004, 08:40 PM
( Pardon me for starting a new thread. I really did not want this to get buired in the other thread... And I am hoping that perhaps a more specific line of discussion may be started... Old Ent )
To the Fox Family,
Old Ent said: “If you really knew what spiritual abuse was, you would have been MUCH more sensitive then you were...”
As I pondered writing this note, it was my intent to retract and apologize for the above statement. However, on re-reading the statement I choose to let it stand as is. I have to distinguish the difference between the Fox family experiencing spiritual abuse, and the Fox family understanding and knowing what spiritual abuse really is. Many experience spiritual abuse, but do not fully recognize it. Many who are so abused become abusers and don’t even realize it; they don’t understand it. They don’t know what it is. So it is I stand by the statement made above without apology. I fear the truth is you HAVE experienced spiritual abuse, but have yet to fully understand and know what it is.
The second thing I need to say is that what follows is not to be used by anyone else in a context outside of this forum. It will have to do with some of my experiences, but the purpose for relating these experiences is not for anyone else’s publication outside of this forum. Also, what I am going to relate has to do with how in the light of those experiences, I view your approach to this forum. In short, as I thought of it, your method of approach was a trigger on several points; triggers that reminded me of past abuse in our former abusive church.
The first and most important point is that of listening. Our former elders did not know how to listen. You say something to one of them, and off they’d go rattling on about whatever and evidencing that they were not really listening to you, or really cared to. This was especially devastating when they were engaged in counseling. The result was that they treated symptoms and never got below the symptoms to the real underlying issues. Often they would over react and totally miss the underlying pain and hurt. “You call yourself a Christian and you do that!!! No real Christian would EVER do that!” Or, “I’m the elder and you’re not to talk to me that way! You have an attitude problem, and you better take care of it our it’s going to be a matter for church discipline!” Also on occasion when they would get below the surface of things, a few brief comments, a few evangelical shibboleths, and they were on to the next whatever. It was hard enough to get to a point to open up about those things very close to the heart, but then to have them lightly treated and passed over, or to be yelled and screamed at for not “measuring up” or being “disrespectful”. After a few times of that, why would I want to even seek their counsel on anything? In fact, they were grossly inept and unqualified at counseling, and the main proof was that lack of ability to really listen.
You came into the forum without really taking the time to listen, and listen in a way that would give us any confidence you were really listening. And this leads to the second point.
Our former abusive pastors had a “fix it” mentality. One pastor especially was notorious for this. Overweight? He and his wife were going to closely monitor your diet and weight and get you down to size. Teen child going “bad”? Have him/her come and live with Pastor and Mrs. Fix-it, and they’ll straighten the kid out and make her/him tow the mark. Marriage in trouble? Pastor Fix-it will fix it. Never mind his own marriage was a mess, and he ended up being exposed as a promiscuous adulterer and liar. The problem with spiritual “fix it” people is that they often try to do what only the Holy Spirit can do.
We have had “fix it” people come in here before. One that sticks in my mind is the notorious “Bible Believer Bill”. He was going to rescue us. He was going to heal us. He had all the answers we needed. Don’t believe that? Just ask him! Cheap evangelical slogans were all we needed. “Let go, Let God…” “Forgive and forget….” Blah, blah, blah… Then you come along and say things like:
We share with your wounds in your past, and believe with you for complete healing and recovery.
Complete healing and recovery? The Bible I read, the one with 66 books inspired by the Holy Spirit, says complete healing and recovery will not happen in this life. Complete healing and recovery will ONLY happen when we see Him face to face, and He wipes away all our tears. You’re going to do what only the Holy Spirit can do? Who do think you are? My former abusers tried to do that too; take the place of the Holy Spirit in my life. Nor is the Holy Spirit one to be manipulated by pseudo-evangelical incantations disguised as “prayer” and Scripture passages twisted out of context. Jesus said in John 3 that the wind blows where it wills, and that’s how the Holy Spirit works.
The third trigger: How the latest and greatest ideas would come and go! We should do this… We should do that… If you people would just get “with it” there is so much we could do. Funny that many of those things related to making more money for the supposed purpose of being able to “give” more. And Hey! Let’s write a book… Yeah…
I have done a little writing of my own. Some stuff has been self-published on my own WWW site and my blog. A few articles have been published at Battered Sheep Ministries. Those writings are born out of the fires of my own experience and over 35 years of Bible study enhanced by seminary level study in Greek and Hebrew. The input and posts of many on this forum have equally enhanced those articles, not by my repeating their stories, but by wrapping my mind around the issues, crisis, pain, and hurt of those stories, and digesting them into my heart and in my prayers.
Chiam Poteck in his writings talks about certain Hassidic Rabbis that view their calling as a Rabbi to be one of carrying the suffering of their people. It is in our following the example of Christ in His ministry that we, in whatever ministry we have, to some degree or other carry the suffering of those we minister to. It is for you to demonstrate a humble servant attitude that demonstrates to us a willingness to deny yourself and to carry the suffering of those of us you want to minister to. To do that you need to get in the trenches with us, not as a commanding officer, but as a buck private ready to serve in the lowest of posts even as our Lord Jesus Christ (Philippians 2).
On this forum there is a wide range of theology from skeptic agnosticism or Deism to Catholic and Orthodox tradition. For this forum to work we have learned to give each other a lot of room on theological issues. I will defend my Evangelicalism when I feel need to, and that Evangelicalism will shape how I seek to comfort, aid and minister in this forum, but God helping me, I will not defend it by attacking other people’s basic integrity and dignity.
I repeat for emphasis that what brief bio I relate here is not to be used by anyone else in a context outside of this forum.
In His joy and strength,
Old Ent
To the Fox Family,
Old Ent said: “If you really knew what spiritual abuse was, you would have been MUCH more sensitive then you were...”
As I pondered writing this note, it was my intent to retract and apologize for the above statement. However, on re-reading the statement I choose to let it stand as is. I have to distinguish the difference between the Fox family experiencing spiritual abuse, and the Fox family understanding and knowing what spiritual abuse really is. Many experience spiritual abuse, but do not fully recognize it. Many who are so abused become abusers and don’t even realize it; they don’t understand it. They don’t know what it is. So it is I stand by the statement made above without apology. I fear the truth is you HAVE experienced spiritual abuse, but have yet to fully understand and know what it is.
The second thing I need to say is that what follows is not to be used by anyone else in a context outside of this forum. It will have to do with some of my experiences, but the purpose for relating these experiences is not for anyone else’s publication outside of this forum. Also, what I am going to relate has to do with how in the light of those experiences, I view your approach to this forum. In short, as I thought of it, your method of approach was a trigger on several points; triggers that reminded me of past abuse in our former abusive church.
The first and most important point is that of listening. Our former elders did not know how to listen. You say something to one of them, and off they’d go rattling on about whatever and evidencing that they were not really listening to you, or really cared to. This was especially devastating when they were engaged in counseling. The result was that they treated symptoms and never got below the symptoms to the real underlying issues. Often they would over react and totally miss the underlying pain and hurt. “You call yourself a Christian and you do that!!! No real Christian would EVER do that!” Or, “I’m the elder and you’re not to talk to me that way! You have an attitude problem, and you better take care of it our it’s going to be a matter for church discipline!” Also on occasion when they would get below the surface of things, a few brief comments, a few evangelical shibboleths, and they were on to the next whatever. It was hard enough to get to a point to open up about those things very close to the heart, but then to have them lightly treated and passed over, or to be yelled and screamed at for not “measuring up” or being “disrespectful”. After a few times of that, why would I want to even seek their counsel on anything? In fact, they were grossly inept and unqualified at counseling, and the main proof was that lack of ability to really listen.
You came into the forum without really taking the time to listen, and listen in a way that would give us any confidence you were really listening. And this leads to the second point.
Our former abusive pastors had a “fix it” mentality. One pastor especially was notorious for this. Overweight? He and his wife were going to closely monitor your diet and weight and get you down to size. Teen child going “bad”? Have him/her come and live with Pastor and Mrs. Fix-it, and they’ll straighten the kid out and make her/him tow the mark. Marriage in trouble? Pastor Fix-it will fix it. Never mind his own marriage was a mess, and he ended up being exposed as a promiscuous adulterer and liar. The problem with spiritual “fix it” people is that they often try to do what only the Holy Spirit can do.
We have had “fix it” people come in here before. One that sticks in my mind is the notorious “Bible Believer Bill”. He was going to rescue us. He was going to heal us. He had all the answers we needed. Don’t believe that? Just ask him! Cheap evangelical slogans were all we needed. “Let go, Let God…” “Forgive and forget….” Blah, blah, blah… Then you come along and say things like:
We share with your wounds in your past, and believe with you for complete healing and recovery.
Complete healing and recovery? The Bible I read, the one with 66 books inspired by the Holy Spirit, says complete healing and recovery will not happen in this life. Complete healing and recovery will ONLY happen when we see Him face to face, and He wipes away all our tears. You’re going to do what only the Holy Spirit can do? Who do think you are? My former abusers tried to do that too; take the place of the Holy Spirit in my life. Nor is the Holy Spirit one to be manipulated by pseudo-evangelical incantations disguised as “prayer” and Scripture passages twisted out of context. Jesus said in John 3 that the wind blows where it wills, and that’s how the Holy Spirit works.
The third trigger: How the latest and greatest ideas would come and go! We should do this… We should do that… If you people would just get “with it” there is so much we could do. Funny that many of those things related to making more money for the supposed purpose of being able to “give” more. And Hey! Let’s write a book… Yeah…
I have done a little writing of my own. Some stuff has been self-published on my own WWW site and my blog. A few articles have been published at Battered Sheep Ministries. Those writings are born out of the fires of my own experience and over 35 years of Bible study enhanced by seminary level study in Greek and Hebrew. The input and posts of many on this forum have equally enhanced those articles, not by my repeating their stories, but by wrapping my mind around the issues, crisis, pain, and hurt of those stories, and digesting them into my heart and in my prayers.
Chiam Poteck in his writings talks about certain Hassidic Rabbis that view their calling as a Rabbi to be one of carrying the suffering of their people. It is in our following the example of Christ in His ministry that we, in whatever ministry we have, to some degree or other carry the suffering of those we minister to. It is for you to demonstrate a humble servant attitude that demonstrates to us a willingness to deny yourself and to carry the suffering of those of us you want to minister to. To do that you need to get in the trenches with us, not as a commanding officer, but as a buck private ready to serve in the lowest of posts even as our Lord Jesus Christ (Philippians 2).
On this forum there is a wide range of theology from skeptic agnosticism or Deism to Catholic and Orthodox tradition. For this forum to work we have learned to give each other a lot of room on theological issues. I will defend my Evangelicalism when I feel need to, and that Evangelicalism will shape how I seek to comfort, aid and minister in this forum, but God helping me, I will not defend it by attacking other people’s basic integrity and dignity.
I repeat for emphasis that what brief bio I relate here is not to be used by anyone else in a context outside of this forum.
In His joy and strength,
Old Ent