Control Issues?

[exmember]

Why does the pastorate, especially in denominations that do not "ordain" women,
attract controlling, insecure men? I've never been able to figure this one out. As I read Scripture, spiritual leadership/gifts comes with some mighty heavy qualifications and standards... and controlling manipulation is not listed. Maybe now that I'm over 40, I realize how dense I really am! Life is full of surprises! oh to be young and somewhat stupid again!

[yeshua'smags]

Uhh..jimsmuse??? Calling jimsmuse.... This one's tailor-made for you dear......helloooo??;) :D :cool:

[SpinningHead]

Are we addressing feminism and misogynism in the church?

or just insecure men being attracted to systems that encourage bullying?

no, seriously...I'm asking. :)

[yeshua'smags]

Is there a difference?;) :D

[exmember]

Are we addressing feminism and misogynism in the church?

or just insecure men being attracted to systems that encourage bullying?

no, seriously...I'm asking. :)

You know, that's a good question. I guess it could be both on some level. I think the visible level is insecure men that are attracted to that male only club. However, I do know of some great men that hold to the view of male "ordaination" only and exercise Godly leadership, but then again, these are mature, godly men. Strange, huh?

[SpinningHead]

You know, that's a good question. I guess it could be both on some level. I think the visible level is insecure men that are attracted to that male only club. However, I do know of some great men that hold to the view of male "ordaination" only and exercise Godly leadership, but then again, these are mature, godly men. Strange, huh?

Well, I'd ask how godly and mature can these men be if they are still holding onto that view?

[jimsmuse]

Well the bruises I have are pretty much from misogynists and the women who love them. :mad: (thank you for spelling that one for me spinninghead, I never know where the "Y" goes)

I was a part of a denomination that does ordain women. Two of the three
ministers who were there during the 12 years I was Youth and Children's Ministry director were misgynists, the latter being the most horrible. He seethed hatred for me because I stood up to him in some ways and "cowed" in front of him the rest of the time. I was allowed no authority even when the assistant youth director was young enough to be my son and it was all downhill from there. :(

The District Super and the Bishop (as Maggie has shared) are women and they know everything from a student minister taking a youth director (another church)
to a strip club, to flat out hateful character assination (against me, my husband, my sister and her husband, our friends) and they say nothing. :confused:

They turn their heads, so I don't know, controlling insecure men, narcissistic disorders run-amuck, or "church as usual rotting from the top down....:(

Still searching for my heart and soul that has sort of been obliterated but I am getting better!

Let's keep talking about this......love to all

Jimsmuse

[Doug64]

I think they get the male-only-ministers idea from man being the head of the house.
From God to the minister, to the husband to the wife.

I'm doubtful they have that right.

There are examples of women being used by God in the Bible.

As to why men are attracted to the men only club, I think jimsmuse pretty well covered it. The senior pastors especially seem to be narcissistic and based on the premise above expect obedience from everyone under them.

As for motive though - which wasn't addressed (I don't think) - some probably go into it like some go into politics (thinking they can make a difference) but end up being seduced by the power angle......and the money.

Doug

[Illuminated]

Why does the pastorate...attract controlling, insecure men? ... As I read Scripture, spiritual leadership/gifts comes with some mighty heavy qualifications and standards... and controlling manipulation is not listed...Perhaps it is just that old issue of flesh. The flesh usually wants control in order to manipulate situations so the flesh can get what it wants.

Each day we are supposed to die more to our flesh and try to become like Jesus, which is a pretty difficult and ravaging process for me. Going through that process in the ministry is made even harder because of all of the demands and pressures piled on the office of pastor or leader.:(

[newlife]

Why does the pastorate, especially in denominations that do not "ordain" women,
attract controlling, insecure men? I've never been able to figure this one out. As I read Scripture, spiritual leadership/gifts comes with some mighty heavy qualifications and standards... and controlling manipulation is not listed. Maybe now that I'm over 40, I realize how dense I really am! Life is full of surprises! oh to be young and somewhat stupid again!

I have found that the pulpit in general attracts controlling, insecure men. Here's a link to an excellent article that I just found last week: http://power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm. I think that it is because the "pastoral" job in the modern church is an "upfront" job. The pastor gets our attention, front and center, every week (and sometimes more than once a week if you have multiple services) for however long he wants to preach. That's a pretty "heady" position for an insecure person...to have a captive audience for however long you want!!!

Our former "pastor"/cult leader did allow women in "leadership" roles...but, of course, he was still in control! He even made a comment to me in my last meeting with him (with a snide smile on his face, no less) "females are more submissive than males"! (He was talking specifically about the youth girls verses my two youth sons.) ERRRRRRRRR!!!!!! :mad:

And that issue about not ordaining women! There are plenty of examples, both in the Old and New Testaments, about women in leadership roles! They get that idea from one scripture, taken out of context! That's another one of my pet peeves!!! Twisting scripture, taking it out of context, to make it say whatever they want it to say!!! Are they any better than the Muslims in their treatment of women????

newlife

[peanut]

Sorry for the delete - I haven't gotten the hang of Quoting from other posts. Anyway, I wanted to respond to Doug.,,,,,

Yes, there are loads of women used by God in the Bible & I think if you look at percerntages of attendees in churches, probably the majority are women. And yes, I think men start out thinking they can change things but are seduced by the power and the money and the SECURITY. It seems that once they become a member of this old boys club, little short of murder will separate them from the job security. (And I'm not so sure about murder)

Thinking of my experience with Pastoral abuse, I am disappointed in myself that I did not recogize the control or the sexual innuendo. The inappropriate behavior sexually was ignored and he has now been promoted to full time pastor. At the time he was a student pastor. Promoted by a woman Bishop and woman District Superintendant.!!!!! The control came by his saying to me in essence that my testimony regarding my discernment of God lead changes in how we lead ( I was in a position of leadership to be having this conversation) should not be about me but about God. Kind of difficult to take the ME out of testimony. Anyway, this effectivly shut me down in conveying what God was leading me to do. After much consideration and the shocking revelation that this was ABUSE I am questioning how we as women were raised and how I am raising my girls. I will not allow this to happen again. I will speak up when things don't feel right. I will raise my girls to respect themselves and teach them to listen to that voice within themselves.

Until we as women genuinely value our own worth and stand for what we believe in we will continue to allow these power driven individuals to continue to tear down and abuse.

Thanks for listening!
Love this place!!!. Peanut

[exmember]

I have found that the pulpit in general attracts controlling, insecure men. Here's a link to an excellent article that I just found last week: http://power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm. I think that it is because the "pastoral" job in the modern church is an "upfront" job. The pastor gets our attention, front and center, every week (and sometimes more than once a week if you have multiple services) for however long he wants to preach. That's a pretty "heady" position for an insecure person...to have a captive audience for however long you want!!!

Our former "pastor"/cult leader did allow women in "leadership" roles...but, of course, he was still in control! He even made a comment to me in my last meeting with him (with a snide smile on his face, no less) "females are more submissive than males"! (He was talking specifically about the youth girls verses my two youth sons.) ERRRRRRRRR!!!!!! :mad:

And that issue about not ordaining women! There are plenty of examples, both in the Old and New Testaments, about women in leadership roles! They get that idea from one scripture, taken out of context! That's another one of my pet peeves!!! Twisting scripture, taking it out of context, to make it say whatever they want it to say!!! Are they any better than the Muslims in their treatment of women????

newlife

[exmember]

thanks for the article link. I'll be sending it on..........

[jimsmuse]

Preach it sister Peanut!

God has valued us higher than anyone else ever could and we need to take our cue from Him. Jesus was constantly elevating the status of women.

I know it's sick and twisted and is rampant in all denominations and you are right too, Newlife, it is no better than the way Muslims treat women. :mad:

We need to watch where our daughters get their info about who they are and who values them most, culture or our awesome God. We should be able to depend on believers in the ministry to do that, we should but...........

(and I am not even close to being "feminist" it has nothing to do with any political moniker :p )

Uhhhhhh!!! I could go on.........

[SpinningHead]

Until we as women genuinely value our own worth and stand for what we believe in we will continue to allow these power driven individuals to continue to tear down and abuse.
Peanut

AMEN! I believe and have no problem with being submissive. :eek: No, seriously, I don't...I DO HOWEVER believe that we have a responsibility to what we are submitting ourselves to! (Chew on that for a moment! :D )

Queen Vashti...rebel after my own heart. Married to the most powerful man, the king! Who got so caught up w/ proving his own power, he ordered Vashti to parade naked in front of all the men. Should she have submitted to this request? because he was king?? because he was her husband???

She didn't! I'm not saying there weren't consequences...kingy sent her away. I've often thought she was better off w/out that jerk! The nerve!! :mad: He didn't deserve Esther! I'd love to know what happend to Vashti after that.

We are told to discern...that implies we have to use our brains! We have a responsibility to be sure of what we are submitting to. We just don't submit to just anything. Submitting in no way implies door mat or being valued less than a man.

I often tell my husband I love him so much I'd do anything for him...even tell him "NO" and tell him when I think he's wrong! :eek:

My mother stayed way too long in an emotionally/mentally abusive relationship b/c she was taught/believed that she had to submitt to her cheating/lieing/mind-gaming husband. :mad: I wouldn't want my childhood back for anything!!!

Your daughters are lucky to have you to teach them about self worth!

[peanut]

Yes, Yes, Yes, YES Jimsmuse!!!!!

It is Not about being a feminist or political monikers and it is NOT about putting men down or their worth or lack there of. (My best friend is male;) ) It's about recognizing abuse when it happens and standing up for ourselves. It's about respecting ourselves and a deep sense of being a child of God and therefore oh so worthy!!!! No matter race or gender.

The labels are not important it's an understanding that anything that takes our voice discriminates and denegrates. It is also an understanding that any type of demeaning control does not come from a God place no matter what the perceived motives.

Jesus did not die to bring heaven to earth. He died for our sins and to give us eternal life. It is our job to do the best we can to take care of the lost, the lonely, the hungry, and to share God's love with all. Heaven & non manupilative, noncontrolling, loving people, free to sing & dance & worship will happen when we are in HIS presence.

[newlife]

I'd love to know what happend to Vashti after that.



I've actually heard that historians have found that there is evidence that after the events that happened in Esther that the king had second thoughts and eventually reinstated Vashti!!! :D

[newlife]

Yes, Yes, Yes, YES Jimsmuse!!!!!

It is Not about being a feminist or political monikers and it is NOT about putting men down or their worth or lack there of. (My best friend is male;) ) It's about recognizing abuse when it happens and standing up for ourselves. It's about respecting ourselves and a deep sense of being a child of God and therefore oh so worthy!!!! No matter race or gender.

The labels are not important it's an understanding that anything that takes our voice discriminates and denegrates. It is also an understanding that any type of demeaning control does not come from a God place no matter what the perceived motives.

Jesus did not die to bring heaven to earth. He died for our sins and to give us eternal life. It is our job to do the best we can to take care of the lost, the lonely, the hungry, and to share God's love with all. Heaven & non manupilative, noncontrolling, loving people, free to sing & dance & worship will happen when we are in HIS presence.


Preach it, Peanut!!! I totally agree with you 100%!!! :D

Historically, religions and societies have made women and certain races to be "second-class citizens", but everything that I read in the Gospels about Jesus, he always treated the women fairly and even with honor and respect! When others would degrade women (the woman caught in the act of adultery...excuse me, where was the man? It takes two to tango!), Jesus did not accuse her. The woman who anointed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair...while the Pharisee judged both the woman and Jesus, Jesus stuck up for her. Jesus was always defending the weaker ones in society, the ones that others wanted to discard...the women, the children, the handicapped, the "second class" races (to the Jews it was the Samaritans). And that was BEFORE he went to the cross! Paul wrote in Galatians 3:28 (Warning...scripture trigger) "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Huh...interesting!

I think Jesus is really cool! Too bad more people aren't like him! :rolleyes:

love, newlife

[yeshua'smags]

Yes, there are loads of women used by God in the Bible & I think if you look at percerntages of attendees in churches, probably the majority are women. And yes, I think men start out thinking they can change things but are seduced by the power and the money and the SECURITY. It seems that once they become a member of this old boys club, little short of murder will separate them from the job security. (And I'm not so sure about murder)


Actually, murder is ok, just don't screw with the church's MONEY! My mother was advised to abort me by her preacher, so, yeah murder is perfectly acceptable.


Until we as women genuinely value our own worth and stand for what we believe in we will continue to allow these power driven individuals to continue to tear down and abuse.

And that will ultimately make the men better people as well.



GO PEANUT!!

[jimsmuse]

You people are the best!
Encourage one another, lift each other up....

[jimsmuse]

:p

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and yes, Newlife, I heard the same thing, that King Xerxes was so changed by Hadassah's (Esthers) influence and she was brought back into the palace.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,

Great example!

[Voyager]

Why does the pastorate, especially in denominations that do not "ordain" women,
attract controlling, insecure men?
It works both ways. In my former church, the woman pastor turned all the women into controllers and tried to get the men to become submissive.

:cool:

[yeshua'smags]

[I'm so glad you said that Voyager!! Women can be awfully controlling! That is something else we need not teach our girls!;)

[tke316]

You people are the best!
Encourage one another, lift each other up....

Yeah! All you women could encourage me and lift me up by getting back to the kitchen and make me a sandwich. :D


(Just kidding! Couldn't resist.:o ;) )

[yeshua'smags]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! !!!!:D :D :D :D :D

You made me snarf my drink! I'll make you a sandwich, Bucko! A knuckle one!

I'm just kidding! I'm housewife, that is my humble job. I'm having a BLT, want one?;)

[jimsmuse]

:) You're cute Token, that was funny. :p I'd rather be makin' you a sandwich instead of sitting at this desk! Oy! :rolleyes:

[peanut]

Yeah let's hear it for submissive men!!!! Just kidding!!!!

I do think it is a very fine line we walk. We should be teaching tenderness, understanding, caring for ourselves as we do others -----I'm feeling the Golden Rule here;)

The abuse is certainly not limited to gender. The female side of abuse is just as damaging and controlling. And frequently takes us by complete surprise because it is so unexpected. Take pasturd's wife for instance. Her desire to assist him in completely controlling was limitless. She used every angle and then some. She garnered a circle of "supporting women" and systematically through gossip and laughter destroyed some very loving people. Her control was of the subtle type. She controlled by making herself appear vulnerable and in need of friends. Her repeated "We're not good enough" was met with assurances that they were.
MISTAKE.!!!!!!!!! There was also a jealousy thing that must have eminated from insecurities in her relationship with pasturd. I not so fondly remember a meeting that lasted until after the church oficce was closed & she phoned her husband, spoke for a while, asked to speak to me & loudly said "What are you doing with my husband?" My response? "Working". I should have been more aware. This resulted in the beginning of a type of control.

Sorry - there I go again. Isn't it interesting writing it down & seeing just how it fits together & how SICK it all was/is? YUCK!!

Peace,
Peanut

Now what type of sandwich was it you wanted?;)

[Willow]

It works both ways. In my former church, the woman pastor turned all the women into controllers and tried to get the men to become submissive.

:cool:

I think women in many cases can be more cruel than men. I am thinking of some work situations where women have targeted an opposer... manipulating and defacing the person by all means available behind the person's back... then when all the pieces are in place, dig the talons in and eliminate the target's existence in the company. At the farewell party... the offender bragged about how she had eliminated a maintenance man from her apt. complex through similar tactics. Subtle message was given to the victim of the current situation through that story. No one was the wiser except the victim... who happened to be me!!!