Spiritual Abuse - Part B

[Catartist]

(Continued....)

A few weeks after resigning, we met with the Pastor, the MoW, and another Lay Minister. They wanted to "talk." We were glad for the chance to explain why we did what we did. They said at the outset of the meeting, "please, be honest -- we want to know."

The meeting started out fine, but in a very short time, we found ourselves under interrogation by the Pastor. He asked some understandable questions about why we were not on board with what was happening, but as we began to answer he became angry. He started to jump to conclusions about what we were saying before we could even finish, firing back more questions and twisting what we were trying to express. Instead of listening, he lectured. He told my husband that instead of being honest at Worship Team meetings, he had been lying to them because they were under the impression my husband agreed with everything (never thinking that perhaps they hadn’t been listening to his objections). He told my husband he needed to repent for being so dishonest all that time.

As the Pastor became angry, I started to cry and began to blurt out things in between his lecturing. I bluntly said he and the Worship Minister had dominated everything on Worship Team, & that his manner of dealing with people was too harsh (others have said that also). I said I thought a servant leader was gentle, like the Gentle Shepherd. He scoffed and asked was I was trying to tell him how to do his job? He said he believed the real problem was that since we were now no longer “in charge,� we didn’t respect the new authority & that we needed to be taught what spiritual authority is. I asked if he meant I was supposed to bow down at his feet, because that’s how he was coming across, and had he ever heard the term “spiritual abuse?� He said, “Is that what you’re accusing me of?� and I said I didn’t know. By this time I was crying uncontrollably, & he turned the conversation into an analysis of what must have happened to me in the past that now made me so anti-authority. He reminded me he was a trained counselor, & said I must be projecting feelings on him that I had for my own pastor-father; that because my father must have been bullheaded, I now think all pastors are bullheaded. I said I wasn’t there to talk psychology – why couldn’t we stick to the issues? He ignored that & asked why was I being so childish, & whom did I think I was to try and control this conversation – do I also control my own husband this way? I said, “No, but you won’t even let me get a word in edgewise.� At that he got even more angry, pointed at me & said loudly, “And I promise you, you will NOT get the last word here.� My husband spoke up and told him he wasn’t listening to me at all, that all I wanted was to be heard, but by then I was sobbing & all I could say was, “I’m done. You’ve shut me down.� From there, the Pastor spoke about me to the others in the room as if I were quite pitiful -- that I needed to be healed from my past and be “healthy� in order to even be able to understand what God was now doing at this church. He invited the other Lay Ministers to stand and pray over me, which they did. Then the meeting was over, & they asked if we felt better. I just nodded yes – all I wanted was to get out of there. In three hours’ time, we hadn’t been able to talk about anything specific to explain why we had resigned, & the only word I can use to describe how I felt walking out of the room was “battered.�

So, here we are. As of today, we are still hanging in as members of this church. (It is one Sunday at a time...) I tried to talk to the Minister of Worship separately after this torturous meeting, to explain what the real issues were. We came away having at least an "understanding" of each other though I know she's still on board with all of Pastor's thinking. She urges me to go talk to him again, but I'm feeling like that's not even worth it.

The broader perspective is that after a year, almost 50% of members have left our congregation. Some I know have been manhandled similarly as we have. When we ask out loud, “Why are so many people so unhappy and leaving the church?� what we keep hearing from the Pastor or MLT is a version of one of the following: “Well, they just weren’t ready for the changes that had to happen in order for this church to move forward,� or, “They were experiencing spiritual warfare which was clouding their thinking,� or, “They were immature Christians and weren’t willing to do what is required to be mature.’� Perhaps these reasons are true of some. But not all. There is a group of people, some who are members, some who are no longer, forming a "writing campaign" to the conference leadership, to tell them about the treatment they have had from this "Man of God." Many of them are very bitter, & there has been an ugly rumor mill going on among former members over this last year to discredit him.

I guess I know the answers to the questions I want to ask on this forum: 1) Is this spiritual abuse, and 2) Should we leave this church? But I still need to hear from other people outside the situation. My other question is, should I enter into this writing campaign and air my grievances, or just call it quits and leave it all behind? I don't want to do more damage to this church (as I believe some former members do). I respect some if not most of the Lay Ministers, and love the congregational members, some of whom are family. But we are hurting so much, and this ongoing (what we feel is) manipulation and domination by the Pastor is killing us. It is hard to sit in church on a Sunday morning.

Sorry this is so lengthy. If you've gotten to this point, thanks for reading.

[SpinningHead]

I guess I know the answers to the questions I want to ask on this forum: 1) Is this spiritual abuse, and 2) Should we leave this church? But I still need to hear from other people outside the situation. My other question is, should I enter into this writing campaign and air my grievances, or just call it quits and leave it all behind? I don't want to do more damage to this church (as I believe some former members do). I respect some if not most of the Lay Ministers, and love the congregational members, some of whom are family. But we are hurting so much, and this ongoing (what we feel is) manipulation and domination by the Pastor is killing us. It is hard to sit in church on a Sunday morning.



#1) A jump up and down "YES! This is S/A!!" :eek:

#2) I don't know that anyone can tell you that outright. I can tell you what I did...hubby and I took a sabitacal over last summer, gave ourselves some distance to get a clear head and make our decision on reasonable evidence/examination and not emotions. We asked ourselves important questions like, "have I done all I can to express my concerns?" (We had - their reactions/upsets over our expressing our concerns wasn't our responsibility. Only that we did our best to communicate. Controlling other people's response or the outcome we wanted, well, my super-gal cape is at the dry-cleaners.) Another important question was, knowing this abuse is going on, and having such a glimpse of the core of this church/leadership being so rotten...can we trust the sermons or teachings? Can we support this with our tithings or time?

We came back after the summer, finished up our ministry obligations and felt relieved that we felt really good about making the decision to leave. We left last Sept. Wrote a letter terminating our membership this past Feb (a real non-confrontational letter, just "see ya") and they responded in kind in March.

#3) I can respond here and I'm sure others will agree (as this was their advice when I asked a similar question as you did..) DO NOT PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING!!! They will circulate that letter and rip you to shreds. Your intentions will be twisted and you will be made out to be immature, rebellous, personal psycological issues....that action will cause you more pain than you can imagine!

You basically said all you had to say...that should have been enough. Look how he responded. He's letting you know what his position is and he's putting this all on you! If you write a letter, which is a stronger way of saying things...he will retaliate equally or more strong to put you in your place!

There has been much pain on this forum because of letter writings.

You need this??
You don't need this!!

Those lay pastors have a responsibility to stop that dictator! It's not your responsibility. As for you and your hubby...take a break and go find some healing. Make a decision on a clear head knowing you've done all you can to express your concern.

Just my two cents...

You have found the right place! Welcome!!! :)

[Carmen]

Hi Catartist and welcome to the forum. :)

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like manipulation and spiritual abuse to me. And this guy is a trained counselor? :confused: Okay, counselors are people too, but he really should have had his counselor cap on when he talked to you rather than forgetting it at home that day (and other days apparently). Someone that has psychological knowledge like that, but is lacking in spiritual maturity (Galatians 5:22,23), can use it as a tool to hurt someone instead of help them, like that pastor did with you. He jumped to conclusions when analyzing your behavior and prescribed laying-of-hands as treatment, making you into the problem so that he wouldn't have to deal with it. Of course you are not the problem, I think you were right when you said that his manner of dealing with people was the problem and the system of control that did not allow for the freedom that is in Christ.

It sounds like they implemented some sort of mentoring system with hierarchical authority, like a pyramid with the pastor at the top. And even if he is at the top, he ought to be the most humble person in the congregation, or he shouldn't be pastor.

Personally I'd start making silent plans to leave if going there is that gruelling. I certainly couldn't accept a person that behaves that way as my pastor. When my parents left their church they called up a few that left and asked if they had found good churches. They went to mid-week meetings at other churches to check them out. They took their time, but that is just the way they are. It did work for them. When they left, though, they lost all contact to those that remained, no one called them up. Actually the others didn't call up much before anyway, only to say when a meal was supposed to be brought to someone or to add a prayer to the list (my mom was in charge of putting out the prayer list).

I have made a big mistake by overreacting to such a situation. I cried, but that was not the mistake, at least not in my eyes. One can't help how one feels. But I wrote a long, loud letter as a reaction, that only caused more problems. If your self-control is down - as it understandably might be - it might be better to leave without saying anything.

Ok, take this with a grain of salt, I'm not saying to leave, just that I would if I were in the situation you described if another better pastor can't be found.

[tke316]

Guidance for how to respond to spiritual abuse is in some of the chapters of The Subtle Power of Spirtual Abuse by Jeff VanVonderen. An abbreviated version is in his Tired of Trying to Measure Up.

[Jerry]

Dear Catartist,,,,,
RUN don't walk to the nearest exit !!!! Is this abuse????,,,,,,,,,,,,,Is the Pope Catholic???????........If any man treated my wife like you were treated,,,he would be eating with a straw with his jaw wired together :mad: That's my take on it ;)
Love Jerry

[Reg]

(Continued....)

snip

I guess I know the answers to the questions I want to ask on this forum: 1) Is this spiritual abuse, and 2) Should we leave this church? But I still need to hear from other people outside the situation. My other question is, should I enter into this writing campaign and air my grievances, or just call it quits and leave it all behind? I don't want to do more damage to this church (as I believe some former members do). I respect some if not most of the Lay Ministers, and love the congregational members, some of whom are family. But we are hurting so much, and this ongoing (what we feel is) manipulation and domination by the Pastor is killing us. It is hard to sit in church on a Sunday morning.

Sorry this is so lengthy. If you've gotten to this point, thanks for reading.

So sorry you have had to go through this. Your story is typical of many/ most here.

Welcome to this Forum. You've definitely found the right place.

1) Absolutely, this is spiritual abuse.
2) As difficult as it may be, LEAVE immediately. Your recovery will begin when you do.

Save yourself a lot of additional grief and turmoil and forget about the letter writing. Very few have been successful in exposing these narcistic/sociopaths. Only one here has been successful so far as I know.

Here is what a heathy group/church should look like:

What to look for in a Healthy Organization

Healthy organizations are voluntary associations
where people collaborate to work out their ideas
with a shared purpose and specific goal. Everyone
is free to criticize and hold different opinions from
that of the group’s leadership. Differences of
opinion are welcomed and respected. There is no
psychological pressure to conform and no
atmosphere of enforced uniformity. Members view
themselves as a part of society in general involved in
a group for practical and limited reasons. Members
spend only a reasonable part of their spare time in
group activities and enjoy a completely separate
family, social and professional life. Healthy groups
are democratic in practice and not just in theory.
Members are free to come and go as they please.
They participate as they wish, without feeling
excessive guilt or shame for not attending meetings,
donating time or money. Nobody fears any physical
or psychological reprimand for missing meetings or
refusing tasks. Members put their personal needs
first and are able to differentiate those from the
needs of the group. They decide for themselves their
relations with the group and are able to reassess
their level of commitment and also leave the group
without creating a major personal crisis or conflict with
the group

Staying Clear of Recovery Cultism
http://www.sossobriety.org/cults.htm

Can you now see how unhealthy this environment is for both of you?

[peanut]

Dear Catartist,

Take heart dear friend - you have found a safe place and are NOT ALONE! I am so sorry you have been subjected to this horrible treatment. After reading and sharing on this site I am continually surprised how the spiritually abused question their abuse! It took me about 7 months after departing our church to recognize that my family had been spiritually abused. So many of our stories have the same themes.

No place that makes you feel the way this has made you feel is healthy. Only you can determine what course of action you should take and only you can decide when you can walk away knowing you have done all you can do. Make no mistake, you are a victim of spiritual abuse. Care for yourself and your family and don't allow this abuse to continue.

You and your family will be in my prayers.

Welcome,
Peanut

[yeshua'smags]

:eek: :eek: **Flames shooting from top of her head and out of her eyesockets**:eek: :eek: :eek:

Everyone is right hon, get the hell out of there!! :mad: ;)

You are being spiritually and verbally abused! If they will say that much to your face, imagine what they are saying behind your back!!! They will rip you to shreds!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Personally I like Jerry's idea,:cool: but I also agree with Spinninghead! Listen to her, she's a smart cookie! My first reaction is TAKE THEM DOWN! But you may not be ready for the hell that follows.

What you could do is find a safe church, use it as a "God spa", sit back, heal, and wait. There are others that are going to follow, and you can be there to "smuggle" them out! And all you have to be armed with is the truth! They will eventually be ready to hear it! Then invite them to your "spa"!;)

[iprenegade]

Hi :

I have only one thing to say in regards to your egomaniac of a pastor . Just leave ! He sounds just like a control freak and its gonna get worse believe me and as far as him being a counselor . lemme tell you a storey .

I grew up in a home where my step mother was an emotionally mentally and physically abusive women .

Guesse what she is now ? and No she hasnt tried to reconcile with me or own up to any of the nightmare she put me through EVER .

A COUNSELOR .

A Holy Ghost led leader is not a control freak cause he/she is not in control and they know this and appreciate it so if your pastor is not a Holy Ghost led leader (cause Jesus said he would send the Holy Ghost for that express purpose ) then I would get to one who is . Start over . God doesnt mind . It wont upset him . Hes a pretty cool guy and takes things in stride . If there is anything that gets HIM worked up its when some one is activley causing an innocent person pain .

[SpinningHead]

"God spa"

God-spa....I love it!! :D

[newlife]

Hi Catartist,

I finally got around to reading your posts, and I want to say that I agree with what everyone else has said. You should get out of there and the sooner the better!!!

As I was reading your account, I grew more and more uncomfortable. I too dealt with a control freak...everything had to be submitted to him for approval. There was no self-initiative or independent decisions allowed...so I understand how you felt about the banner situation. I also was subjected to the kind of meeting like you had with the "pastor", MoW, and the lay leader. I refer to them as "hotseat sessions". Their purpose is to tear you down and get you to submit to their leadership.

This "pastor" and MoW are putting blame on those who are leaving instead of looking at themselves as the cause. Common with these types of people...they can't take any blame themselves.

Anyway, you might want to check out the thread that started last week about "Article on narcissism". There's a couple of good links that might give you some insight to this situation.

Take care!
Welcome to the forum...you are among friends here!

Love, newlife

[Catartist]

Thank you everyone for the encouragement. I just needed to hear that I wasn't CRAZY!!! The people this minister is snowing are some of the Christians in my congregation that I respect the most, and it has been so confusing when I talk to them. My close girlfriend, one of the most educated people I know, was having such an inner battle over this, and her husband is one of the Lay Ministers! Just lately her husband became ill, and my girlfriend was just so impressed with how warm and loving this Pastor was during that time that all her former doubts disappeared. Arrrrggghhhh!!!! I need to just hang out here for awhile to retain my sanity. Thanks again, everybody.

[newlife]

What your friend experienced is what is known as "love bombing". You might want to do some research online about Robert Jay Lifton's eight criteria of mind control, as well as cult tactics. They have all kinds of methods up their sleeves to manipulate people! I know, for I too have been a victim of my former "pastor's" manipulation tactics.

I wanted to leave a year and a half before we actually did leave and at the time the "pastor" picked up on my discontent and called me into his office. He listened to me and then gave me the "sugarly sweet 'I'm sorry IF I've offended you'! Blah, blah, blah..." with a smile on his face. Then the next time the congregation was together (for a pastor appreciation, no less :eek: ), he called my husband and me up to the front and had everyone hug and "love on" us. "Love bombing" in action!!! And, it worked...we ended up staying for another year and a half!

It is confusing when people that you respect and consider to be spiritual continue to stand behind these people. There are a few that my husband and I have talked about that we can't understand why they can't see the truth about our former "pastor". All I can say is, I believed the guy for 10 years myself...I think it's because Christians don't want to believe negative things about other so-called Christians...we don't want to be "judgmental", but we ignore the scriptures about being discerning. There are probably just as many scriptures about being discerning as there are about being judgmental. But, of course, those scriptures are never preached about by these people!!! Our former "pastor" just always preached about "blind submission"! :eek: No more for me!!! :D

Well, I am very glad that you found us, catartist! Hanging around here will help you get a fresh perspective on the situation and help you to know that you're not insane! You're actually the normal one! :D

Take care,
newlife

[outcast]

In response to the OP: I concur w/all other forum members' assessments of the situation that

1. Yes it is S/A in it's finest form
2. RUN!!!! Don't walk outta there. :eek:

I went through a very similar experience w/a control freak pastor while I was the head of the music ministry at my old church. He very much tried to control me when I resigned my position. I dilly dallied around wondering if I needed to leave and waiting for God's timing to go.

Well, in retrospect I sure wish I'd gotten out of there sooner. I no longer believe it is God's will for a child of his to stay in those types of circumstances voluntarily.

As for what happened w/your friend - that is typical too. The post above called it love bombing and I witnessed it in my church. It is blatant manipulation b/c they are scared to lose people. You will likely have to make your stand alone, but IMO you should make it quickly.

[lee^1]

I can so relate to what you have and are going through. All the thoughts given you are wonderful, though I would probably go further than Jerry..hehe. One of the best bits of advice I wanted to reiterate is to not put anything in writing, it will potentially prove disastrous. And even though there is great trauma and hurt, there is healing. And I am finding this a good place to work on that. As far as that man being a trained counselor, I would offer that a trained chimp would better serve than he does.

[Scooter]

Welcome, Catartist. Yep, sounds like spiritual abuse to me. I'm sorry for the anguish this person and situation is causing you and your husband.

As for leaving, it sounds as though you and your husband are trying to protect yourself during church services, rather than being able to safely grow, learn, and be fed. I think that's an important consideration in your discussion about whether or not to leave. It's a tough decision, especially when people you respect disagree with you.

[jane]

This message was posted around may 15th, so I am wondering;

have you left the church? Are you and your husband ok?


jane

[dougjb]

Hi Catartist,
Welcome abroad, what you have described is a very familiar theme in many churches. There are those in the church who employ non-christian methods of leadership and attempt to deceive people into believing that it is Christian. I describe the type of leadership you experienced in terms of an aristocracy. They are above the average [pleb or person] by divine right[self-determined] and to question their absolute authority is the greatest transgression that anyone could possibly make.

The fact that you are able to recognize bad and non-Christian leadship is a clear indication [as I see it] that you are a person who has their head on straight. The fact that one is able to recognize a problem [even though not immune from being hurt] is a sign of maturity. If people are leaving the church, then it sounds like you may not be the only one who sees a problem.

some food for thought
Dougjb

[Patty]

Oh honey, you need to leave and leave fast. I will bet you already have known that for awhile. Your account of your meeting with that guy was just about ditto what I went throught, including my sobbing. Your sobbing is your utter realization that these people whom you have loved and cared for so long were showing you there real colors, who they are under their spiritual facade. It is very devastating for you to see this. You thought they were your friends, your Christian family. You thought they felt the same way about you as you did about them.

It is a horrifying shock to find out otherwise, isn't it. Then to top if all off, they turned that whole meeting around and made it about you and your "spiritual problemss" and your need of healing. Even bringing up supposed stuff from your past to further confuse you. I was you, down to the tee, even letting them pray for me after their so-called "diagnosis." I was beaten down.

I am deeply sorry for what you have had to endure, but that meeting served a purpose. Now, you know what you have known for a while now. It is time to go. It is OK to go. However you will have feelings of longing for what you once thought was a great place and bunch of people. You will miss them and wonder if there is anything you can do to fix the situation. You will be tempted to return. Just remember, FLEE and don't look back, remember these words when you start to hurt and long. FLEE!!! It is OK to go. I never knew that, I had to hang around till I got thrown out, because I ignored that still small voice to FLEE!

What you have described is such a perversion of the gospel that you must know that God is calling you out of it and into His truth, not that man's. Look through the scriptures, there is so much to support what I am saying.

It is awesome that you have found this site, stick around. It saved my sanity.

[Catartist]

Wow. I am overwhelmed by the support found on this forum. Thank you. You can't imagine what it means to have complete strangers reach out and give you an online hug like this!! Until this experience we've had, I never felt the need to look for moral support outside of church friends -- that has changed.

To update, yes, we have left this church. Our last Sunday there was Father's Day. I knew that was going to be our last time worshipping there, and I couldn't even look the pastor in the eye when he was up front; I was just sickened thinking of how he treated people when everyone wasn't looking... Since then, we've picked up and headed for another church down the road. It's not a perfect fit, but our kids seem happy there and we like some things about it, so we're just going to hang out there and see how the Lord leads.

Now we deal with the aftermath of our decision. One hurdle we now face is dealing with the friends still left at the old church who don't understand. It's driving me crazy right now; I want to be able to tell them what transpired and see them automaticaly react with shock and dismay. But they don't, of course. They've been taught to believe that we had a problem with authority and hmmm, sad but true, we just couldn't submit - so we left because we didn't get our way. How do you deal with that?! I mean with the people still being influenced by these "spin doctors" at the old church? Do you make an effort to convince them of the truth, or do you just let the Holy Spirit do the work?

Along with that, just before we left I wrote a letter to our church conference's leadership, telling them about the experience we'd had with this minister. Didn't necessarily expect them to do anything, I just felt I had to tell someone who would listen our "truth." I know many on this forum have said not to put anything in writing, but it seemed to me that was part of doing what Matthew 18 says -- "take it to the church." The letter was calm and factual, not a rant, but I did ask the conference minister not to share specifics of my letter. Well, turns out he did at least tell some leaders back at the church (some of them friends) that I wrote this letter. And now that they know that I did it, I suppose the label of "troublemaker" sticks even more firmly to our backs. I know in my head there's no shame in telling the truth; still, in my humanness, I worry about what these folks think, or what if any consequences there will be for writing...

I feel a real need for justice right now. My husband says I have to let it go. I am just so angry that 20 years' worth of serving alongside these people can be so easily twisted into us all of a sudden having a problem with authority. These friends know what kind of people we are, yet they choose to believe a man they have only known for a year... I keep praying, "Lord, blast a light of truth into this darkness and let it be seen for what it REALLY IS..." Ugggggggh!:mad: (I relate a lot to some of David's Psalms.) I hate that when my husband resigned, instead of being recognized even just a little for all the time he had put into the music ministry at the old church (which has usually been the custom when someone stepped down from serving), he is now being labeled and condemned. It is so unfair.

Despite everything, my husband seems to be doing O.K. these days, though I think he feels lost. He was a leader, now he's simply an observer -- that is a difficult adjustment. But he is very focused on moving on. As you can tell, I am not anywhere near letting it go yet. He's invited some of these old church friends (one of them part of the Ministerial Leadership Team) over this weekend to "talk," and I just don't know how I'm gonna act. I try to remember they are caught up in this pastor's manipulation just like we once were, but it is so hard to forgive them for just sitting idly by while we suffered. I'm finding it hard to to accept anything less than their full support and I know that's not realistic. I just want to hand them the book on Spiritual Abuse by Johnson and Van Vonderean and say, "Here, THIS is what we're talking about." The Lord is going to have to help me deal with them where they're at.

Thank you for letting me in on this forum and for showing what a real Christian community is about -- so different from what we have been experiencing lately.

[butterfly]

Welcome back Catartist,

What you wrote about the people in the church is what I went thru.

I think for me that the rejection from the friends hurt me more than the SA.

How can people who knew us for so long turn on us? It happen didn"t it and there is nothing in my brain that can help me to understand it has happen.


If you send letters ect Keep copys and replys. You might need them down the rd.

Rember what you tell your friends will get back to the pastor. You might think you can trust someone. We'll you never know who will go against you.

It is very sad to tell you this but it happens. Thoses friends might snub you and won"t talk to you.

I am sorry you have to go thru this.

You are not alone. Alot of us have gone thru the same thing you are going thru.

butterfly shirley

[jane]

You know, I felt the real need to tell people the truth-

for one, I wanted them to be free....

for another, I wanted to still be connected to my family- well, they were friends but felt like family.

The SAD thing was, the more I spoke, the more I fed into their belief that I was decieved by a spirit....

EVEN THOSE WHO FELT THE SAME WAY AND WERE THINKING OF LEAVING BEFORE WE DID>

if it helps any, A Leader of our church, ordained by our pastor as a minister- head of the intercessory everything- and a CORE leader....for over 8 years-

when she left, the leadership said that she had a problem "PLANTING"; that she HOPS CHURCHES AND WAS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE SHE BOUNCED AROUND.....

AND THE BLIND SHEEP OF OUR GROUP FOLLOWED THE LIE....they ALL thought of her as a "fly by night who wasn't here long and couldnt commit to being planted". Even after 8 solid years of being endorsed by the pastor as a solid, committed christian/leader.

After we watched her be socially murdered....we knew we would get it worse as we were not nearly held in the same esteem as she was....we werent' CORE leaders- just leaders......

and leaders who openly shared traumatic childhoods in an attempt to witness and help others recover.....

so of course when we left it was (amongst MANY other reasons) because we "were wounded"

said with a sigh as if we were really not getting it because we haven't "MOVED ON and GROWN UP YET"....


SO, I shared all this to say; you are probably NOT going to get what you are looking for but I had the same need............DO WHAT YOU FEEL YOU NEED TO DO but realize that you are NOT responsible for people's reactions to you.

YOU ARE RIGHT (in my opinion) to want to share the truth and expose....

but darkness doesn't like light so don't be surprised when darkness tries to bite your head off for bringing light to it.....

(remember that even the blind sheep want to be in denial- WHY? Because if YOU are right, then they have wasted their time, money, energy and HOPE towards this false leader- much easier to believe that they serve God through this ministry).


Love and Healing to you my friend,

you are in the right forum,

jane

[byrdmn1va]

Catartist:

I can share in your feelings of anger about what happened. And you know, I think you should be angry.:mad: Sometimes people treat anger like its a bad thing, and it can be when it's out of control, but it's also a warning sign. Like a red light at a train track that says "there is danger here!:eek:

While my wife and I are not 20 year members, we have been at our church since it started and now we are leaving because of similar reasons. Oh, we haven't been labeled as "having a problem with authority" at least I don't think so, but I just got tired of the way things were going, especially on the worship team (you can read about it in the NACR forum; I called it "worship team madness" and "the madness continues").

I can relate to the conflicting emotions you felt. My wife and I are feeling them now. But we also know that God has something really good for us. And healing takes time. Somebody mentioned a "God spa." Any ideas on where one of those is? I could use a good soaking right about now:D

Anyway, welcome. You're not crazy. And you know I have found that people with true authority are easy to recognize - they are the ones that others go to for advice. People who have to say what authority they have are usually posers who feel just as lost as anyone, they're just frontin' to try to lie to people.
_______________
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truch each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. (Eph 4:25)

[outcast]

Cartarist, I totally echo Jane's reply to you. I too went through the exact same thing. I was only in my church 11 years or so, but I also saw others who'd been there for 20+ years get maligned and mistreated when they left - even if they tried to leave quietly.

I left pretty quietly too and now I am in the angry phase and have been for a few weeks. It started w/the pastor's daughter's e-mails. Then it was finding out how my ex-pastor was talking about me to people and saying that he knew I was probably poisoning their minds against him and the church now that I've gone. Before I found that out I hadn't spoken to people from there at all, except my best friend who already knew b/c she's had similar experiences to mine.

I had to reconcile the fact that I was no different than others and he was going to say whatever he wished. However, I feel no obligation to hide my own feelings now. I feel a little conflicted over this, I don't want to sin - but I am going to speak the truth about things if asked.

I am glad you are here. We are all in this boat together. You will certainly not be judged by us. :)

[Reg]

Cartarist, I totally echo Jane's reply to you. I too went through the exact same thing. I was only in my church 11 years or so, but I also saw others who'd been there for 20+ years get maligned and mistreated when they left - even if they tried to leave quietly.

I left pretty quietly too and now I am in the angry phase and have been for a few weeks. It started w/the pastor's daughter's e-mails. Then it was finding out how my ex-pastor was talking about me to people and saying that he knew I was probably poisoning their minds against him and the church now that I've gone. Before I found that out I hadn't spoken to people from there at all, except my best friend who already knew b/c she's had similar experiences to mine.

I had to reconcile the fact that I was no different than others and he was going to say whatever he wished. However, I feel no obligation to hide my own feelings now. I feel a little conflicted over this, I don't want to sin - but I am going to speak the truth about things if asked.

I am glad you are here. We are all in this boat together. You will certainly not be judged by us. :)
Outcast,

Anger is part of the healing process. The stages are similar to those when someone close to you dies.


Kubler-Ross' Stages of Dying:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

First, it is worth considering that giving up long-held beliefs is similar to losing a loved one. 25
years ago Elisabeth Kubler-Ross wrote a monumental work about the stages a person goes
through when faced with death and dying (1969). In it she outlined five predominant themes that
accompany grief and loss: denial and isolation, anger, bargaining, depression, and finally,
acceptance. Psychologists today suggest that it is not necessary to go through the stages in the
exact order described.

It is her belief based upon counseling education, personal trial of faith and experience that how
we respond as a ministry is critical if we as a body are going to move on toward emotional and
spiritual healing and truly repent to become a healthy, balanced Christian church.

Anger and Hurt Feelings

Our historical approach toward anger in the WCG has been, for the most part, that the person is in a bad
attitude and should shut up. If members are not allowed to feel their frustration, hurt, and, yes,
even anger, they will not move on toward emotional and spiritual healing. Inevitably, their
feelings will be suppressed down eventually resulting in bitterness. It is not healthy to circumvent
the natural process of grief and loss.

God's grace comes through honesty. Our Father did not sweep our sins under the rug, but sent his
Son to die for them. One therapist compares the emotional and spiritual hurt or guilt we possess
to a big ball of grief and pain a person has inside. To pick the ball up and handle it hurts because
there is metal and glass in it that cuts and tears. But the only way to take this ball of resentment
and place it in the grace of the cross is to do just that, to first pick it up and hold it and look at it,
to openly and honestly acknowledge it. Forgiveness cannot be attained any other way.
Suppressing our feelings of anger, hurt or frustration leads to bitterness. It is true that we should
not sacrifice love in our honesty, but Christians often forsake honesty in the name of love.
They suppress their feelings of anger and hurt. This is emotional suicide.

A ministry of healing can lead people gently through the process.

[outcast]

Thanks for the wisdom Reg. I appreciate you. :) *Hug*

[leelees]

im so sorry ive just forgotton..oh yeah..cataract..sorry ive just forgotten your name!

this guy sounds scarily like my bad pastor!
1) you really really must leave..it will only get worse if you dont plus its not doing you any good being there!!!
2) as tempting as it is to write a letter i would advise against it...its extremely hard and im fighting a battle within me not to wwrite anything to the local paper or put public notices up about the bad church...
i generally just slag him off to anyone i come across and tell people never to enter through the gates lest they never return! its the only thing i can do to make myself feel slightly better..still sooo tempting...one thing i want to do is advertise his number in all the fone boothes and in the porno sections of magazines lol

so your leader guy is meant to be a counsellor..yeah and im mary poppins..hes a bit crap by the sounds of it....funny how these people seem to be in the roles of helping people because my bad ex pastor used to be a social worker...the make peoples lives hell instead of helping them!!!

please please get out of there, PLEASE!!!
the majority of my ex church left while i was there....i understand your pain, im still going through it even after a year since i left..its worse then ever now though!

love and snugs

[leelees]

oh sorry ive just caught up with this thread and its good to hear youve left...the hardest thing for me was suddenly the unday [i decided to leave] having all these friends who didnt ralise i was goin to leave, to the next day have no friends..litterally i had one friend in the entire worl i cud talk to...6 years of strong friendships to being shunned by people and dropped like a stone is heartbreaking, i struggle so much with lonelines and being accepted and i wasnt the moment i left...its extremely hard, so im here for you 100%
no one deserves that!!!