"Spiritual Distress in Recovery"...Part 2

[Theodora]

Re-posting my initial reference to what I think is a very helpful article in the NACR "library" since the original thread has gotten rather long and complex. (In case you're wondering---no---I've not read the most recent messages, but just wanted to try to simplify the "discussion" if I could by starting a new thread.)

Here is the original reference post:

For Illuminated et al: "Spiritual Distress in Recovery"...
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=29926#post29926
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...is a section heading in the book "Rooted in God's Love" by Dale and Juanita Ryan which is available on-line in the NACR bookstore, as well as in print.

From the introduction---

"For many of us, our first reaction to times of spiritual distress is to assume that we are spiritual failures. Our faith is defective, we think. Good Christians aren't supposed to get angry at God. We have many ways of shaming ourselves for our spiritual distress."

"But spiritual distress is not an indication of spiritual failure. Spiritual distress is more likely to be a sign that God is growing in us a new capacity for relationship with him. Times of distress are often the first steps toward spiritual healing and growth."

(As you probably know, this is kind of "continuing the conversation" we had begun re thinking about being "angry" at God at http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=29926#post29926

If interested, these meditations based on Biblical texts are available at http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/meditate/m4_spdis.shtml

The index for the complete series, with "hotlinks" to the various texts, is


Biblical Meditations for People in Recovery

http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/meditations.shtml

The book is available for purchase at http://www.nacronline.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1

+ + +

As it happens, the selected meditation from this book for today (which is available both on-line at http://www.nacronline.com/cgi/dailymed.cgi and by e-mail) was from this section.

Beginning excerpt:


A despairing man should have the devotion of his friends, even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.
Job 6:14

"At some point during the recovery process we re-examine our most fundamental beliefs. A long process of sorting, examining and questioning takes place. And, in that process, our relationship with God is challenged. It is possible that our relationship with God will deepen and strengthen in the process. But it is also possible that we will find ourselves pulling away from God. We may find ourselves angry with God, or afraid of God, or unable to believe in God at all. This can be a frightening experience. It can feel like the very foundations of life are being shaken."

"In times like this, we need many things. But at the top of the list is our need for friends who will accept us even if we turn away from God."

Looking forward to more "conversation with" you...and our developing friendship!

Thanks for your very thoughtful comments and honesty in your posts.

Grace and peace--

Theodora

----

FWIW--I'll try to follow up with related references I had in mind when I can. Now, however, I'm trying to keep this "brief," since I really need to try to get back to sleep and too much "thinking" is NOT conducive to that!!! ;) :p :D

My husband has a day of vacation "tomorrow"....i.e. now "today" since it's c. 1:45 a.m. CDT by my clock...and I'd really like to be available for whatever the day might bring WITH him while he's home, rather than being too dopey/sleepy to enjoy the day. And THAT, ideally would mean that I WILL now get some rest...though I'm REALLY wakeful right now. (Your prayers appreciated for this aspect of my life right now, if you're so inclined.)

Siiiiiiiiiigh! To quote Kermit the Frog: "It's not easy being 'green'!"

Grace and peace to you all this night.

Theodora

[Theodora]

snip.

If interested, these meditations based on Biblical texts are available at http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/meditate/m4_spdis.shtml

The index for the complete series, with "hotlinks" to the various texts, is


Biblical Meditations for People in Recovery

http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/meditations.shtml

The book is available for purchase at http://www.nacronline.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1

Theodora

As I was doing the bibliographic search on the above, I also found some other resources which I hadn't seen before. Recommended listening--based on their authors and the implied depth of topic as seen in the titles. I suspect that these are a real Treasure Trove of information! (Note the reference to "STEPS" which is the annual conference in broad areas of recovery, sponsored by the main organization. The date would refer to the year in which that particular talk was given.)

Selected titles from list of CD's available in the NACR Web Store at

http://www.nacronline.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26&page=1

__

Spiritual Distress in Recovery by Dale Ryan

Healthy Boundaries by Mike O'Neil (STEPS 2003)

Recovery from Distorted Images of God by Juanita Ryan

Getting to the Roots of Shame by Jeff VanVonderen

Letting God Be God by Dale Ryan (STEPS 2005)

Normalizing Recovery by Dave & Wendy Wilkinson (STEPS 2005)

====

As always..."take what works and leave the rest!"

Grace and peace to you all this day.

Theodora

[Illuminated]

Continuing on from Part 1 of this thread…

New Life wrote:… he knew that not all people would come to him to have a relationship with him (even many within the "church"), but for those who do come, that's why he died. Many times I feel like Paul in Galatians...I have not yet attained it, but I press toward the mark. That’s a really good point, NL. Thanks….. for those who do come, that’s why He died. I never thought about it like that before. I know what you mean about not yet having attained the mark....

I have been thinking about the concept that the Kingdom of God has already come on earth, but it has not yet been fulfilled yet. I think that maybe I am now getting my head around it a little more. The 'not yet' part is the part that seems cruel to me.

The Kingdom of God came in Jesus. He died to achieve victory over sin. He went away to be with the Father. He sends the Holy Spirit to be our helper. I have understood that part for years, and I have experienced the Holy Spirit as my helper numerous times.

But after this past year, I realize that, as we have been discussing, there is still so much sin in the world that it is almost unbearable to think about it. And, what makes me groan, as Willow mentioned she was doing the other night, is that so much of the psychological cruelty is practised by Christian against Christian. Like HB said, He came with a sword to divide us.

It seems so mean to me. Why are Christians mean to each other? Why is there still so much suffering? Why didn’t He just fix everything while He was here? Bummer.

Hornblower wrote: I suffer with this idea in my mind that Jesus wants me to suffer just like He did but you know what I really think that this is the enemy of us all telling me these things.

Suffering…..while in Africa we debated why we were even there, and why we were suffering from emotional/verbal abuse at the hands of other Christian organisational personnel. We discussed the concept of suffering over and over. Of course, we decided that what we were suffering was nothing compared to what so many other people endure, so we stopped having pity parties.

Then, like you mentioned HB, we realised that no matter how much we were suffering, it was nothing compared to what Jesus had suffered for us when He died on the cross for us! (There’s that thought stopping sentence, NL! "Oh, this abuse and meanness is the way it is supposed to be – after all, Jesus suffered much more than we are suffering!").

That was quite a sobering thought, and we felt guilty for thinking that we were suffering to begin with. Still, it is hard to understand why people still suffer, if the Kingdom of God is here already….. I guess it is like you said, HB, maybe it is because we are His, and they are not????

Thanks for your advice and tips. It is just taking so long to get better for all of us. I never thought it would take so long. I never thought I would doubt my faith.

Dance with me, oh lover of my soul, the King of all Kings! ;)

[newlife]

Why are Christians mean to each other?

I could never understand that one either...I think that there's actually two separate answers to it, though.

Number one: and this is the one that a lot of us have experienced here on the forum...we were treated meanly by those who "claim" to be Christians...wolves in sheep's clothing. I put my former "pastor"/cult leader in that category. He is a narcissistic psychopath who has put himself on the "throne" for people to worship him and disguised himself as a "pastor"/"apostle".

Then number two: those who don't really mean to be mean, but because of their own "issues" and weaknesses, end up hurting others. I think that all of us are capable of this and I know that I've been guilty of it. Sometimes it's a matter of miscommunication and misunderstandings. Sometimes it's because of the fact that we're not perfect...like when I get frustrated at my son and yell at him...:(

I don't understand why Jesus' death and resurrection didn't make the world a "perfect place" and everyone "perfect people", but I've never seen in scripture that God promised that that would happen. Even Apostle Paul said, "I have not yet attained..." When I read the New Testament from the book of Acts on, I still see people dealing with problems...but they had something that others didn't have...the grace of God to overcome their problems.

A few years ago, I read a book by a Christian woman who had gone through prison camps in Romania when Romania was communist. She had been imprisoned because of her public declaration of her faith. She told about others who were imprisoned who were not Christians, such as political prisoners and prostitutes. They all suffered at the hands of their communist captors, but she had her faith to sustain her, while others didn't. She said that she felt sorry for them because they didn't have anything to help them during those difficult days. Suffering, unfortunately, is a part of our human existence...everyone, even the richest people on earth, will experience the death of loved ones. But for those of us who have the Lord, we have a hope beyond the suffering...and for that, I am truly thankful...

Love, newlife

[Illuminated]

Suffering, unfortunately, is a part of our human existence...everyone, even the richest people on earth, will experience the death of loved ones. But for those of us who have the Lord, we have a hope beyond the suffering...and for that, I am truly thankful...

I think what is happening right now in my head is that I am out of hope, or hopeless, or I have kind of a 'who gives a flip' attitude about the future. I could really relate to the post the other night titled Sometimes I Think I'm Gonna Die.

I had to address the issue of suffering physically and psychologically about a year and a half ago. I had no personal loss at that time, so grieving wasn't an issue. It was just the physical conditions and the psychological abuse that was causing me/us to really suffer and question our purpose in life.

I have a really cool Bible - it is the New American Standard 1987 Open Bible that has little notes and explanations written throughout the pages. The following is an excerpt from the threaded study there of the concept of suffering.

S U F F E R I N G

Job 2:7 Purposes of Suffering
Perhaps the most painful question confronting the believer is the problem of suffering. Why does a loving and wise God permit His children to suffer? The Scriptures offer a number of reasons for this.

a. To produce fruit. If we allow suffering to accomplish its purpose, it can bring forth patience (Heb.10:36; James 1:3), joy (Ps. 30:5; 126:6), knowledge (Ps. 94:12), and maturity (1 Pet. 5:10).
b. To silence the devil. Satan once accused Job of merely serving God for the material blessings involved. But the Lord allowed the devil to torment Job to demonstrate that His servant loved God because of who He was, and not for what he could get from Him (Job 1:9-12; 2:3-7).
c. To glorify God (John 9:1-3; 1 :1-4).
d. To make us like Jesus. "That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death" (Phil. 3:10).
e. To teach us dependence. This Is brought out by both Christ (John 15:1-5) and the apostle Paul (2 Cor.12:1-10).
f. To refine our lives (Ps. 66:10-12; Prov. 17:3; 1 Pet. 1:6,7).
g. To rebuke our sin (1 Pet. 2:20; 3:17; 4:15). As a faithful earthly father must in love punish his erring child, so does our heavenly Father (Heb. 12:5-9).
h. To enlarge our ministry towards others (2 Cor. 1:3-7). It has been observed that he who has suffered much speaks many languages (understands others).

Job 1:21 Response to Suffering
In the hour of suffering the Christian should attempt to determine first of all just why he may be suffering. One can suffer because of his position or his disposition. Peter brings this truth out in his first epistle: "Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a man bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly." (1 Pet. 2:18,19).

Suffering is often a two-sided coin. On the one side suffering may be viewed as coming from God to bring out the best in us. (Genesis 22:1, 2, 15-18; Hebrews 11 :17) On the other side Satan attempts to use the same temptation and suffering event to bring out the worst in us (James 1 :13,14).

Finally, the believer can react to suffering in three different ways:
a. Despise it, that is, treat it too lightly, as did Esau his birthright (Heb. 12:5, 16).
b. Faint under it, that is, treat it too seriously (Heb. 12:5)
c. Be exercised by it, that is, receive instruction from it. This is the reaction desired by God (Heb.12:11-13).

During this time both Peter and Paul advise us to commit our pain and suffering to God, realizing He is faithful to work out all things for our good and God's glory (Rom. 8:28; 1 Pet. 4:19). James tells us to count it all joy when we experience these dark hours (James 1 :2).

JOY???? JOY???? I have that phrase written in shoe polish on my huge mirror at home:
COUNT THE COSTS - ALL JOY!
:( I am so tired of counting..... counting.....counting.....:(

[hornblower]

I havent read all of these posts yet. Ill do it tomorrow, I'm very sleepy tonight. Id like to add one more reason for suffering. This has helped me a lot. A fellow christian told me this years ago and its really stuck with me, gives me peace and hope in the midst of trials.

Some day we will all be 'there'.
Unbelievers will also be standing before the judjement seat of Christ according to the word. Then one by one God will approach them as to why they didnt accept his offer of grace and forgiveness and belief in his attonement. One by one they will retell their stories. This happened and You God, You did nothing, etc. etc. etc.
Then one by one He will turn and invite us in.

The unbelievers will say why are you letting them in?????????????
They have been through nothing!!!!!!!!! YOU protected them and they never suffered at all.
Then one by one we will be able to tell our own stories of pain and trouble in this life.
We STILL BELIEVE even though we suffered in the same manner as they.

The word says we are suffering nothing that isnt common to man and that is true.
Job said is it fair to receive good from God and not also receive the bad? Personally I will never believe bad is from God because God is good so He is incap[able of doing bad to harmn us or anyone. His enemies would have us believe though that it is Him. Look at the story of Job its not God that harms him its satsn testing himand accusing him before our Father. Long ago we gave up our rights over this earth and we gave satan this power to do these things to us.

Are we going to still believe when things get hard for us?
Jesus told me the other night..........He suffered for me. He went through poverty for me. He suffered his mother and his brothers and sisters rejections for me. He did not marrry and He did this for me. He went through his friends deserting him and not understanding Him for me. He went through immense pain for me. He was lonely for me. He left His throne for me. He went to hell and back for me. He suffered great shame for me. The church cast Him out and He went through that for me.

Now what? I cant go through one day of suffering or even many days for HIM?
and He has not left me, not once did He ever leave me, or forsake me.

I think the big lie is that we are not supposed to suffer...............actually its kind of like who do we think we are anyway?
We really should be seeing this as the privilige that it is.
Im in a good mood tonight as you can see.
I had a good Mothers day thanks to Him and to all of you who have prayed.
The test is when Im not having a good day to begin to see who I am in Him and how proud He is of me when Im in that place................that would bring great hope I think. To know that.
I love you guys.:o

[Illuminated]

This past week I have just about scared myself to death worrying about doubt. Do I doubt my faith because I am in distress spiritually, or am I in spiritual distress because I doubt my faith? Is doubt distressing and depressing? Or, does distress and depression cause doubt?

At first I could identify with Job and others in the Bible and the anguish and lamenting they experienced. It made me feel kind of good – like "Hey! I’m just like them!" Then, however, I realized that the people in the Bible who were treated poorly were treated poorly by people of another faith, or of no faith at all.

And here we are – in another category. We have been mistreated by people of our own faith. So much for identification with and having a sense of camaraderie with Job. I guess we could identify more with the Corinthians, suffering under false teachers. But there is no scripture quoting their laments to the Lord….

I still don’t understand how this god of ours – the same god that Job was mad at – can be a good god when Christians are so mean to each other. I am not even thinking about all of the meanness that goes on in the world outside of the faith of Christianity. I can understand that meanness easily – “Well…. They just don’t know any better….” I’ve decided to just focus on being upset with the meanness of Christians towards other Christians – and we are supposed to know better!

I started to research doubt, out of desperation. I found a great little book that actually gave me quite a reassuring revelation. Reading How to Think Theologically by Howard Stone and James Duke relieved me of a lot of guilt because I found out about something called deliberative theology.

I found out all Christians experience something called embedded theology. However, only people like us who have been through the wringer often doubt their faith, and subsequently engage in a process called deliberative theology. Sounds very philosophical, but it really isn’t.

I was so relieved to find a name for my spiritual state that I almost cried! I am continuing to search for a reason for the pain, and according to one of the reasons for suffering, the reason might be for personal growth. I wonder what the rest of you think the reason for you experiencing spiritual abuse is.

Here’s some information on deliberative theology and some references to information about it and the book on the web.

You can read about the first 6 pages of the text here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0800629671/ref=sib_dp_top_ex/104-9114394-8383156?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S006#reader-page

Embedded theology is that kind of theological content that is in us without our necessarily being aware of it. Embedded theology can come from early childhood ideas of God Jesus etc. Embedded theology can come from hymn texts prayers and sermons that reinforce ideas. Embedded theology can come from family friends and neighbours. These are influences subtle and explicit that form a theological mindset ... http://www.bioinformatics.vg/Books/ho/How_to_Think_Theologically_0800629671.html

Those churches and theological communities that resist critical analysis and reflection stand on shaky ground. They discourage questioning, often appealing to the ultimate source ('Who are you to question God?') when such arise. What is sometimes missed is that it is not God who is being questioned (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, given the number of times in the Bible examples of God being questioned and bargained with are presented), but rather an individual's or community's preconceptions of God that are being questioned.

This gets into deliberative theology. Deliberative theology is a second-order process, of asking important questions about who, what, when, where, how and why. Not all questions can be answered. Not all will be relevant. Sometimes, deliberative theology will serve to strengthen the embedded theological ideas; sometimes, deliberative processes will cause a reconstruction and reconception. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0800629671/104-9114394-8383156

It is this 2nd order theological reflection which carries us forward when our embedded theology proves inadequate. This second order of theology is a form of reflection marked by a certain critical distance toward each testimony of faith. e.g. A toddler wanders too near the edge of his grandparents swimming pool, falls in and drowns in a tragic accident.

The embedded theology of the parents leads them to state their anguish in terms such as: ‘why does a God who is all-powerful and altogether good allow my child to die?' The ‘why' indicates that at this very moment they face a question of faith for which their embedded theology is not proving helpful or healing.

When we engage in deliberative theological reflection we are examining the adequacy of convictions in order to arrive at a deeper, more authentic, more integrated, more satisfying understanding of Christian faith and practice. http://www.chalmersunitedchurch.com/sermons/jul22s01.htm

So, now when someone asks me why I don't go to church anymore, I can just say something like "Oh! I've been unhelpfully embedded!" :D

[Theodora]

Will be looking forward to returning to this and to checking out some of your resources as able.

GOOD WORK!!!!

"Trust the process...."

Love and prayers---

Theodora

This past week I have just about scared myself to death worrying about doubt. Do I doubt my faith because I am in distress spiritually, or am I in spiritual distress because I doubt my faith? Is doubt distressing and depressing? Or, does distress and depression cause doubt?

At first I could identify with Job and others in the Bible and the anguish and lamenting they experienced. It made me feel kind of good – like "Hey! I’m just like them!" Then, however, I realized that the people in the Bible who were treated poorly were treated poorly by people of another faith, or of no faith at all.

And here we are – in another category. We have been mistreated by people of our own faith. So much for identification with and having a sense of camaraderie with Job. I guess we could identify more with the Corinthians, suffering under false teachers. But there is no scripture quoting their laments to the Lord….

I still don’t understand how this god of ours – the same god that Job was mad at – can be a good god when Christians are so mean to each other. I am not even thinking about all of the meanness that goes on in the world outside of the faith of Christianity. I can understand that meanness easily – “Well…. They just don’t know any better….” I’ve decided to just focus on being upset with the meanness of Christians towards other Christians – and we are supposed to know better!

I started to research doubt, out of desperation. I found a great little book that actually gave me quite a reassuring revelation. Reading How to Think Theologically by Howard Stone and James Duke relieved me of a lot of guilt because I found out about something called deliberative theology.

I found out all Christians experience something called embedded theology. However, only people like us who have been through the wringer often doubt their faith, and subsequently engage in a process called deliberative theology. Sounds very philosophical, but it really isn’t.

I was so relieved to find a name for my spiritual state that I almost cried! I am continuing to search for a reason for the pain, and according to one of the reasons for suffering, the reason might be for personal growth. I wonder what the rest of you think the reason for you experiencing spiritual abuse is.

Here’s some information on deliberative theology and some references to information about it and the book on the web.

You can read about the first 6 pages of the text here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0800629671/ref=sib_dp_top_ex/104-9114394-8383156?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S006#reader-page

Embedded theology is that kind of theological content that is in us without our necessarily being aware of it. Embedded theology can come from early childhood ideas of God Jesus etc. Embedded theology can come from hymn texts prayers and sermons that reinforce ideas. Embedded theology can come from family friends and neighbours. These are influences subtle and explicit that form a theological mindset ... http://www.bioinformatics.vg/Books/ho/How_to_Think_Theologically_0800629671.html

Those churches and theological communities that resist critical analysis and reflection stand on shaky ground. They discourage questioning, often appealing to the ultimate source ('Who are you to question God?') when such arise. What is sometimes missed is that it is not God who is being questioned (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, given the number of times in the Bible examples of God being questioned and bargained with are presented), but rather an individual's or community's preconceptions of God that are being questioned.

This gets into deliberative theology. Deliberative theology is a second-order process, of asking important questions about who, what, when, where, how and why. Not all questions can be answered. Not all will be relevant. Sometimes, deliberative theology will serve to strengthen the embedded theological ideas; sometimes, deliberative processes will cause a reconstruction and reconception. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0800629671/104-9114394-8383156

It is this 2nd order theological reflection which carries us forward when our embedded theology proves inadequate. This second order of theology is a form of reflection marked by a certain critical distance toward each testimony of faith. e.g. A toddler wanders too near the edge of his grandparents swimming pool, falls in and drowns in a tragic accident.

The embedded theology of the parents leads them to state their anguish in terms such as: ‘why does a God who is all-powerful and altogether good allow my child to die?' The ‘why' indicates that at this very moment they face a question of faith for which their embedded theology is not proving helpful or healing.

When we engage in deliberative theological reflection we are examining the adequacy of convictions in order to arrive at a deeper, more authentic, more integrated, more satisfying understanding of Christian faith and practice. http://www.chalmersunitedchurch.com/sermons/jul22s01.htm

So, now when someone asks me why I don't go to church anymore, I can just say something like "Oh! I've been unhelpfully embedded!" :D

[hornblower]

Maybe other Christians are mean because since we are supposed to represent God then the logical representation for all of us is that we are Good like God.
Even Jesus though did not represent Himself as being 'good'.

He didnt, look it up? This really gave me trouble when I read that about Jesus. How can it be if He didnt have any sin? Then I realised its because He was also human as well as being God. His humanity itself made Him not be good because He could be tempted. Now I know He didnt fall like we do but we are tempted constantly so we fall.

I think maybe a lot of us were hurt to begin with and so then we go to church expecting a family a 'good' family. NOT!!!!!!!!!!
The family of God is still a disfunctional one. Just like out other families were. So we get double hurt.

Also though its really helping me to relaise that churches are not the spiritual church anyway. Lots of people can believe that they are believing christians doesnt make it so. Lots of christians may be believing doesnt mean they read the bible and know what to do or how to act like a christian.
It still hurts to think about what happened to me. I am still mad at what was done to me, it was wrong.

At least now I am ready to see what part I played in the entire process and go on with my life and not dwell on it any longer. Also its helping to realise it wasnt me that did the hurting.......... it was them!

So too bad for them thats all I can say. God is not mad at me because of what 'THEY' did to me?????????? I think I had this misconception mixed up inside of me somehow. Leftovers from my childhood.

"If something bad happens I must have done something to cause it to be that way." I got that mesasge a lot when I was growing up.
If that message is true then why did Jesus get crucified???????????

Its helped me so much to come here.:o

[Illuminated]

The test is when Im not having a good day to begin to see who I am in Him and how proud He is of me when Im in that place................that would bring great hope I think. To know that.
I love you guys.:oWhat a good way to describe our situations in a nutshell, HB. I never understood what 'when I am weak, He is strong' meant until I've been through this last year. Now I think I understand. I think. I hope to pass the test.:o

"They will see the glory of the Lord, The majesty of our God. Encourage the exhausted, and strengthen the feeble. Say to those with anxious heart, Take courage, fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance; the recompense of God will come." IS 35:2-4

Love ya!:D

[Illuminated]

"If something bad happens I must have done something to cause it to be that way."…..If that message is true then why did Jesus get crucified???????????
I think you are asking the same question that I have been asking:

Was the death of Jesus all for nothing? When bad happens to me – then I must deserve it – then what good did it do for Jesus to die for me and my sins? (I think that is old Beelzebub whispering in our ear that we are guilty.) His death didn’t take the bad in the world go away or make Christians always kind to each other!

But, I think you have your head around the answer a little better than I do. Perhaps you have more faith than I do at this point because you sound like you are sure that you were not the reason for the abuse that was laid on you. Do you know how you got to that stage?

I hope I can get to that stage soon. I still feel like I must have done something wrong to be treated the way I was treated. I’ve asked for them to tell me what I did wrong, but no one will tell me.

I agree with your thoughts about the goodness of Jesus. What you said about Jesus, who was himself tempted, therefore he indeed was human also, makes a lot of sense.

I think it is difficult though, for those of us who are trying to become more like Jesus everyday, to understand that indeed we are going to fail many times. :( Yet, we are forgiven for failing because Jesus asks God to forgive us.

He asks God to forgive you and me every day, HB. Every day. I think I believe that. I think. :o

[Illuminated]

I’ve always thought that Jesus died to pay for our sins, and since He had done that already that all of our sins were forgiven because He died on the cross. I still believe that is true, I think. So, that’s one reason for His death on the cross.

I thought that another reason for the death of Jesus on the cross was that after suffering for us, His death took the pain of suffering away. Well, obviously I was wrong and His death didn’t take the pain and suffering away. We can certainly see enough pain expressed right here in the stories that we tell on the forum.

Recently I’ve been struggling with why Christians are so mean to each other and abuse each other verbally, physically, and spiritually. I just don’t understand why, if Jesus died for us, that there is still bad going on, especially in the body of Christ. If Jesus suffered and died to pay our debt, why are we still paying? If Christ suffered for us on the cross, why do we still have to suffer, especially at the hands of other Christians? It seems to me that Jesus died for nothing.

There are hurtful things happening and being said by Christians to other Christians – there is still sin in the body of Christ – and we all undergo suffering when we are abused. One thing I don’t understand about the abusers is how on earth can they call themselves Christians if they continue to commit sin that hurts other Christians? This dilemma in my head is spiritually devastating to me. It is causing me to doubt.

Because I have been searching through theological information to find out more about the opinions of others, I am discovering that some people think there are more reasons that Jesus died on the cross other than just to pay for our sins and take the pain of the sins away.

I found two really neat sites that discusses why Jesus died on the cross. The first one lists three theories that different people have. There are link there to a short explanation of each theory: The Good versus Evil Theory, the Paying a Debt Theory, and The Role Model Theory.
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040412/ Time Magazine (Easter 2003?)

Since I love the BBC, I read their site that discusses why Jesus died. It mentions four theories of what was accomplished when Jesus died on the cross: The Cross as Sacrifice, The Cross as a Victory ,The Cross and Forgiveness, The Cross as a Moral Example .
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/features/whyjesusdied/ British Broadcasting Company

I still am appalled at the behaviour of other Christians that was and is causing me to stumble. However, I hope that I will soon understand more fully the whole concept of what it means to be a Christian. I think it has something to do with one of those reasons for the cross listed on the web sites. . . .
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

[Satscout]

I’ve always thought that Jesus died to pay for our sins, and since He had done that already that all of our sins were forgiven because He died on the cross. I still believe that is true, I think. So, that’s one reason for His death on the cross.

I thought that another reason for the death of Jesus on the cross was that after suffering for us, His death took the pain of suffering away. Well, obviously I was wrong and His death didn’t take the pain and suffering away. We can certainly see enough pain expressed right here in the stories that we tell on the forum.

You ask good questions.

Sometimes when the depth of this subject overwhelms me, I go back to the basics. When I look at my own case, personally, I have to conclude that Jesus died because without His sacrifice, I can't be reconciled to God. He bridges the gap between me-in-the-depths-of-my-sin and God-in-the-height-of-His-holiness. From that point, Jesus grants the other benefits of salvation, like eternal life, the hope of heaven, and sanctification.

When I reach a stone wall like abuse by people who claim to be Christian... there are times when I have the mental energy to try to understand, and there are many more times where I just have to cry out to God and lean on His everlasting arms. The key is, the abusers are human. God is still God. He doesn't change just because some people are really screwed up. I still ask questions like "where were you, God?" and "why didn't you help me?" and stuff like that. Ultimately, though, I have to trust that whatever he permits to happen will be for His glory, or some consequence of it will, even if I never see that good result in this life. A hard thing to take, but the only way I can sort of reconcile it and keep what's left of my sanity. :rolleyes: :o

Keep asking good questions. I like learning.

[Illuminated]

without His sacrifice, I can't be reconciled to God. He bridges the gap between me-in-the-depths-of-my-sin and God-in-the-height-of-His-holiness. When I reach a stone wall like abuse by people who claim to be Christian... there are times when I have the mental energy to try to understand, and there are many more times where I just have to cry out to God and lean on His everlasting arms. The key is, the abusers are human. God is still God. Aha! Thanks for mentioning reconciliation. That is one of the reasons listed on those web sites for why Jesus died on the cross. I see you understand it a little more than I do.

I always think of Jesus as the 'transformer' between the power of God and us humans. We cannot look into the face of God because His glory is too much for us to comprehend as humans. So, God sent Jesus as a human so we could relate to Him on a personal basis - human to human.

And, I understand the concept of reconciliation - but I always thought it was mostly used in regards to reconciliation of Christians to each other after one of them had been wronged.

After listening to your explanation and reading that web site, I know this is a concept I need to try and get my head around if I'm ever gonna get out of this faith crisis.

Thanks for your thoughts on it.:)

[Illuminated]

Now what? I cant go through one day of suffering or even many days for HIM?...and He has not left me, not once did He ever leave me, or forsake me....The test is when Im not having a good day to begin to see who I am in Him and how proud He is of me when Im in that place................that would bring great hope I think. To know that.... I love you guys.:oI love you too, HB.

I see you did indeed make it through a few more awful days of suffering. He didn't leave you, did He? He is really proud of you. I know He is.

I am so happy to see you back here after a few days away. :D It is really good for me to talk to somebody else who hears from Jesus.

[hornblower]

I havent read the article but I wanted to comment on this subject here.

I just don’t understand why, if Jesus died for us, that there is still bad going on, especially in the body of Christ. If Jesus suffered and died to pay our debt, why are we still paying? If Christ suffered for us on the cross, why do we still have to suffer, especially at the hands of other Christians? It seems to me that Jesus died for nothing.



For me for one thing we dont know if everyone in the church is born again. The word says that the tares are sewn in with the wheat..............I take this to mean that not everyone we think is born again IS.........I have learned the hard way that I can think to myself this person is one of my kind but I cannot absolutely know it. Jesus said think not that He came to bring peace to the earth but He brings a sword. He turns Mother against daughter, children against parents so on and on.
I think this might be because Jesus is the light and the truth.
When truth comes up next to a lie BAMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!
When darkness coincides with light...............POWEY!!!!!!!!!!!

Certainly true in my life Im a living example of it. My daughter knows Jesus and so do I but look at us?
The only thing I know about it is this. I think there is something inside of me that needs to be taken care of...............like an idol of some kind. I care too much and not the right way.
In the end.........God has to be first inside of me and if He isnt POW fireworks are going to happen.
Or maybe it is my daughter that is having the problem here because she is ill. An illness she refuses to take or admit to God or anyone. She needs help and she refuses to seek it.

I think the pastors wife that hurt me has a demonic force that is keeping her in the dark. Like a hurt she is hiding. When we hide something and dont face it its not in the light and God cannot heal it. Unhealed people hurt people.
Jesus said to not trust men because they will beat you in their synogoges (ms) Nothings changed.
He also said when they dont accept you in one town go to another and dust your feet off from that place. Doesnt that sound like what we have experienced?

Another reason is that satan is alive and well and plays havoc with everyone especially in conversation. So much is the way we say things and dont understand what someone means when they are saying something. Its the curse! Yes Jesus took the curse on the cross but its not all over yet.

Also the word says that we take up the slack in His cross. Did you know that? Yes it does say that. We suffer because He suffered. He told us. If they call the head of the household beelzebulb what do you think they will call you?????????

My biggest problem is not with Him its with myself. The enemy of my soul is my flesh.............I look at myself and I am still sinning. Death reigns in my body just like Paul says it reigned in his. Oh who will deliver me from this body of death...............Jesus will........... thank God for Him and His cross.

[Illuminated]

When we hide something and dont face it its not in the light and God cannot heal it. Unhealed people hurt people. Jesus said to not trust men because they will beat you in their synogoges (ms) Nothings changed.
He also said when they dont accept you in one town go to another and dust your feet off from that place. Doesnt that sound like what we have experienced?Yes, HB, it certainly does sound like what we have experienced. And, the dust gathers and sometimes it doesn't scrape off.... so, we should move on to protect ourselves from further hurt!:o

To me the hard part is facing the hurt. It's kinda like being afraid that I was/am so foolish to allow myself to be hurt by other Christians. I just think "But they should know better!" But of course, there are times that I should know better too!:(

[Illuminated]

From one of the websites listing reasons why Jesus died on the cross:"The theory of atonement ...... understood Jesus' death less as a payment to God for the remission of human sin than as the crowning example of his perfect love. It was in imitation of this love that humanity could overcome its alienation from the Father. ..."It's more about us. [The] emphasis was on how Christ's life and death relates to human beings instead of how it relates to remedying God's justice."

So, what I am getting is that another of the reasons that Jesus died on the cross was so that we can imitate the perfect love that He had for us. And, we should be imitating the way Jesus behaved in our life today. That's hard to do sometimes.:o

Hmmmm.... I guess we are to imitate how He lived, and how He sacrificed Himself for us. So we should try and be Christ-like to others and to sacrifice ourselves (not literally by dying) for the welfare of others.

Yikes. That doesn't sound easy. But, if that is one of the reasons Jesus died on the cross, then I certainly want to try and do that so He didn't die in vain.:o
:) Amen. Thank you Jesus. I bless Your name. :)

[hornblower]

Illuminated.
how about our attacks and our persecutions are directly set up by demons? Im sorry but you know its just too good the way it all happens to us. it hurts too much to not be.

When Im saying good I mean like a plan or something...........a trap!
Believe me Im not one of these a demon under every tree or whatever. Not at all. I dont think about all of that stuff. I did in the beginning and then I learned that God fights my battles and to sit around thinking on this stuff would drive me batty.

Still though what that woman said to me (the pastors wife)and the way she said it and then later denying that she ever said anything to me at all...........??????????
It was all a trap and I fell into it.
Its ok. Ill get up dust myself off and God can take care of me. Now right now I look pretty darn bad but........

Im encouraged lately about all of these things that happened. God sees us, God knows. Im sure He wished it wouldnt have happened to me the way it did and that I could have been clearer about what was going on. Something was driving me on.

It was things in my past Im sure but also it was demons. I mean what they did was satanic..........it was! This stuff here that people are talking about on this board its satanic stuff that happened to all of us in one way or another.

I love what Bill Cosby said when he was interviewed by Oprah Winfrey about his son being murdered.

He said "heres how it works. Satan comes along or one of his pals, and says to this numbskull, go ahead and shoot this kid, hes this or hes that, just lying to him so hes convinced hes doing the right thing by shooting him. This guy does the dumb thing and shoots my son. Then the police come and get him and put him in jail.

The're going to throw the book at him and hes in big time trouble. The jails are full of them. Then this guy says I didnt do it! He screams and screams "but I didnt do it."

He really didnt do it because satan is the murderer that got him to do it so he feels this way about it, the poor slob listened to him and pulled the trigger. Now where is his old friend satan? Hes laughing his a-- off cause this guys listened to him and did the murdering deed and now hes going to get the penalty..............."

Thats the way it is. You listen to the wrong entity and you end up doing the wrong deed. Now you and me we are pretty up on the scale maybe of say not murdering anyone, hopefully we all are.

But these people that did this stuff to us thats what happened to them when they did this stuff to us. Im not saying its ok what they did Im just saying this is how it works.
Some day Ill be able to really wrap my head around Bill Cosbies unbelievable wisdom there because I do believe it, sometimes anyway.
My problem? Im still listening to the wrong entity. Those thoughts ? they are important little dudes in our brains.

I had a thought today about this. "its not flesh and blood that we are fighting against, its powers of darkness and principalities in high places those are our enemies that we are at war with."

There was something inside of me and the devil knows what that something is (a hurt or something from my past, a part of me that wants and needs love and maybe more attention than what is healthy for me) so I'm listening to the wrong messages and I was ensnared in the devils trap door. I fell into a hole. God will get me out. He will. He knows I need healing, we all need healing.

[Illuminated]

....how about our attacks and our persecutions are directly set up by demons? Im sorry but you know its just too good the way it all happens to us....it hurts too much to not be.....It was things in my past Im sure but also it was demons. I mean what they did was satanic..........it was! This stuff here that people are talking about on this board its satanic stuff that happened to all of us in one way or another.I believe that the deceiver works through people to hurt us and to try and distract us from the Truth. I personally have been told by several different people that frequently the deceiver attacks those who are working for God the most. Therefore, if I/you are experiencing difficulites, persecution, and attack, it must be that we are on the right track towards knowing the Lord better, and doing His work. At first I didn't believe that, but when several different people from different parts of the country and from different branches of Christianity, upon hearing my story, mentioned that to me, I took it as a word from the Lord.
I had a thought today about this. "its not flesh and blood that we are fighting against, its powers of darkness and principalities in high places those are our enemies that we are at war with."Yep. We are at war. War is hell.
There was something inside of me and the devil knows what that something is (a hurt or something from my past, a part of me that wants and needs love and maybe more attention than what is healthy for me) so I'm listening to the wrong messages and I was ensnared in the devils trap door. I fell into a hole. God will get me out. He will. He knows I need healing, we all need healing. I think you are on your way up out of the mirey clay, sliding up the sides of that slimy hole, pulled up by the arm of the Lord and lifted up by the power of the Holy Spirit. You are the head and not the tail. You are a child of God. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
;)

[Illuminated]

Sometimes when the depth of this subject overwhelms me, I go back to the basics.Because I have doubting my faith, I have been doing some research on theology. What I have found has convinced me to ignore, for the time being, anything written in the past 100 years. I have decided to go back to the basics.

Lookie what I found! Below is a writing on suffering and hope. It is a little hard to read because the English used is not 20th century English. I was finally able to wade through it when I turned off the radio and concentrated on it in silence.

Anyone want to guess who wrote the expostion on the Scripture???

The Scripture From Romans 5:3-5
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, which is given unto us.

The Exposition on Romans 5:3-5

3. Not only so, etc. That no one might scoffingly object and say, that Christians, with all their glorying, are yet strangely harassed and distressed in this life, which condition is far from being a happy one, -- he (Paul) meets this objection, and declares, not only that the godly are prevented by these calamities from being blessed, but also that their glorying is thereby promoted. To prove this he takes his argument from the effects, and adopts a remarkable gradation, and at last concludes, that all the sorrows we endure contribute to our salvation and final good.

By saying that the saints glory in tribulations, he is not to be understood, as though they dreaded not, nor avoided adversities, or were not distressed with their bitterness when they happened, (for there is no patience when there is no feeling of bitterness); but as in their grief and sorrow they are not without great consolation, because they regard that whatever they bear is dispensed to them for good by the hand of a most indulgent Father, they are justly said to glory: for whenever salvation is promoted, there is not wanting a reason for glorying.

We are then taught here what is the design of our tribulations, if indeed we would prove ourselves to be the children of God. They ought to habituate us to patience; and if they do not answer this end, the work of the Lord is rendered void and of none effect through our corruption: for how does he prove that adversities do not hinder the glorying of the faithful, except that by their patience in enduring them, they feel the help of God, which nourishes and confirms their hope?

They then who do not learn patience, do not, it is certain, make good progress. Nor is it any objection, that there are recorded in Scripture some complaints full of despondency, which the saints had made: for the Lord sometimes so depresses and straitens for a time his people, that they can hardly breathe, and can hardly remember any source of consolation; but in a moment he brings to life those whom he had nearly sunk in the darkness of death. So that what Paul says is always accomplished in them --

"We are in every way oppressed, but not made anxious; we are in danger, but we are not in despair; we suffer persecution, but we are not forsaken; we are cast down but we are not destroyed." (2 Corinthians 4:8.)

Tribulation produces (efficiat) patience, etc. This is not the natural effect of tribulation; for we see that a great portion of mankind are thereby instigated to murmur against God, and even to curse his name. But when that inward meekness, which is infused by the Spirit of God, and the consolation, which is conveyed by the same Spirit, succeed in the place of our stubbornness, then tribulations become the means of generating patience; yea, those tribulations, which in the obstinate can produce nothing but indignation and clamorous discontent.

4. Patience, probation, etc. James, adopting a similar gradation, seems to follow a different order; for he says, that patience proceeds from probation: but the different meaning of the word is what will reconcile both.

Paul takes probation for the experience which the faithful have of the sure protection of God, when by relying on his aid they overcome all difficulties, even when they experience, whilst in patiently enduring they stand firm, how much avails the power of the Lord, which he has promised to be always present with his people.

James takes the same word for tribulation itself, according to the common usage of Scripture; for by these God proves and tries his servants: and they are often called trials.

According then to the present passage, we then only make advances in patience as we ought, when we regard it as having been continued to us by God's power, and thus entertain hope as to the future, that God's favor, which has ever succored us in our necessities, will never be wanting to us. Hence he subjoins, that from probation arises hope; for ungrateful we should be for benefits received, except the recollection of them confirms our hope as to what is to come.

5. Hope not ashamed, etc.; that is, it regards salvation as most certain. It hence appears, that the Lord tries us by adversities for this end, -- that our salvation may thereby be gradually advanced. Those evils then cannot render us miserable, which do in a manner promote our happiness.

And thus is proved what he had said, that the godly have reasons for glorying in the midst of their afflictions.

For the love of God, etc. I do not refer this only to the last sentence, but to the whole of the preceding passage. I therefore would say, -- that by tribulations we are stimulated to patience, and that patience finds an experiment of divine help, by which we are more encouraged to entertain hope; for however we may be pressed and seem to be nearly consumed, we do not yet cease to feel God's favor towards us, which affords the richest consolation, and much more abundant than when all things happen prosperously.

For as that happiness, which is so in appearance, is misery itself, when God is adverse to and displeased with us; so when he is propitious, even calamities themselves will surely be turned to a prosperous and a joyful issue. Seeing all things must serve the will of the Creator, who, according to his paternal favor towards us, (as Paul declares in the eighth chapter,) overrules all the trials of the cross for our salvation, this knowledge of divine love towards us is instilled into our hearts to the Spirit of God; for the good things which God has prepared for his servants are hid from the ears and the eyes and the minds of men, and the Spirit alone is he who can reveal them.

And the word diffused, is very emphatical; for it means that the revelation of divine love towards us is so abounding that it fills our hearts; and being thus spread through every part of them, it not only mitigates sorrow in adversities, but also, like a sweet seasoning, it renders tribulations to be loved by us.

He Says further, that the Spirit is given, that is, bestowed through the gratuitous goodness of God, and not conferred for our merits; according to what Augustine has well observed, who, though he is mistaken in his view of the love of God, gives this explanation, -- that we courageously bear adversities, and are thus confirmed in our hope, because we, having been regenerated by the Spirit, do love God.

It is indeed a pious sentiment, but not what Paul means: for love is not to be taken here in an active but a passive sense. And certain it is, that no other thing is taught by Paul than that the true fountain of all love is, when the faithful are convinced that they are loved by God, and that they are not slightly touched with this conviction, but have their souls thoroughly imbued with it.

[Pinkie Pie]

Thanks to those who brought this thread back up to the current posts. I missed it the first go-round somehow, but it was exactly what I needed to read today.

I've written 3 or 4 posts today about how I despondent and hopeless I have been feeling the past 2 or 3 weeks, but I never posted a single one, thinking "What the @#$% difference will it make?"

But while reading all the posts in this particular thread, I saw the link to "Spiritual Distress in Recovery" and eureka! That is ME all over.

This sentence really spoke to me:

"But spiritual distress is not an indication of spiritual failure. Spiritual distress is more likely to be a sign that God is growing in us a new capacity for relationship with him."

I thought I was past the questioning of my faith and all that, went through it about 5 or 6 years ago, but somehow it has managed to rear its ugly head. Now it's not so much I'm questioning my faith, as I'm questioning my own relationship with God, as pitiful and anemic as it is. I wonder sometimes how God could possibly love me, when I give Him so little in return.

Will I never be able to say once and for all, "I'm healed!!!" ??? I think sometimes this is going to take a life time. CURSE those spiritual abusers. I have no compassion for them. I feel sooo UN-Christian. Probably part of the reason I figure how could God continue to be patient with me. Glad I'm not Him or I would have given up on me a long time ago.

[Illuminated]

Thanks to those who brought this thread back up to the current posts.....how could God continue to be patient with me. Glad I'm not Him or I would have given up on me a long time ago.I feel better knowing that you can relate to the topics in this thread, Pinkie Pie. I don't feel quite so alone in my struggle with doubt and spiritual depression!

Another of us has mentioned interest in some of the discussion going on in this thread so.... here it is again! (I would have just referenced the response in the thread, but I can't figure out how to do that - how to get the address of that particular response and to create a link.)

************************************************** *********************
I found a great little book that actually gave me quite a reassuring revelation. Reading How to Think Theologically by Howard Stone and James Duke relieved me of a lot of guilt because I found out about something called deliberative theology.

I found out all Christians experience something called embedded theology. However, only people like us who have been through the wringer often doubt their faith, and subsequently engage in a process called deliberative theology. Sounds very philosophical, but it really isn’t.

I was so relieved to find a name for my spiritual state that I almost cried! I am continuing to search for a reason for the pain, and according to one of the reasons for suffering, the reason might be for personal growth. I wonder what the rest of you think the reason for you experiencing spiritual abuse is.

Here’s some information on deliberative theology and some references to information about it and the book on the web.

You can read about the first 6 pages of How to Think Theologically book here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0800...06#reader-page


Embedded theology is that kind of theological content that is in us without our necessarily being aware of it. Embedded theology can come from early childhood ideas of God Jesus etc. Embedded theology can come from hymn texts prayers and sermons that reinforce ideas. Embedded theology can come from family friends and neighbours. These are influences subtle and explicit that form a theological mindset ... http://www.bioinformatics.vg/Books/h...800629671.html


Those churches and theological communities that resist critical analysis and reflection stand on shaky ground. They discourage questioning, often appealing to the ultimate source ('Who are you to question God?') when such arise. What is sometimes missed is that it is not God who is being questioned (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, given the number of times in the Bible examples of God being questioned and bargained with are presented), but rather an individual's or community's preconceptions of God that are being questioned.

This gets into deliberative theology. Deliberative theology is a second-order process, of asking important questions about who, what, when, where, how and why. Not all questions can be answered. Not all will be relevant. Sometimes, deliberative theology will serve to strengthen the embedded theological ideas; sometimes, deliberative processes will cause a reconstruction and reconception. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...114394-8383156


It is this 2nd order theological reflection which carries us forward when our embedded theology proves inadequate. This second order of theology is a form of reflection marked by a certain critical distance toward each testimony of faith. e.g. A toddler wanders too near the edge of his grandparents swimming pool, falls in and drowns in a tragic accident.

The embedded theology of the parents leads them to state their anguish in terms such as: ‘why does a God who is all-powerful and altogether good allow my child to die?' The ‘why' indicates that at this very moment they face a question of faith for which their embedded theology is not proving helpful or healing.

When we engage in deliberative theological reflection we are examining the adequacy of convictions in order to arrive at a deeper, more authentic, more integrated, more satisfying understanding of Christian faith and practice. http://www.chalmersunitedchurch.com/...s/jul22s01.htm

*******************************

[Theodora]

It looks like you've found some helpful information. Will try to get back to this "later."

Blessings to you for pulling this up for me/us!

Theodora

--

I feel better knowing that you can relate to the topics in this thread, Pinkie Pie. I don't feel quite so alone in my struggle with doubt and spiritual depression!

Another of us has mentioned interest in some of the discussion going on in this thread so.... here it is again! (I would have just referenced the response in the thread, but I can't figure out how to do that - how to get the address of that particular response and to create a link.)

************************************************** *********************
I found a great little book that actually gave me quite a reassuring revelation. Reading How to Think Theologically by Howard Stone and James Duke relieved me of a lot of guilt because I found out about something called deliberative theology.

I found out all Christians experience something called embedded theology. However, only people like us who have been through the wringer often doubt their faith, and subsequently engage in a process called deliberative theology. Sounds very philosophical, but it really isn’t.

I was so relieved to find a name for my spiritual state that I almost cried! I am continuing to search for a reason for the pain, and according to one of the reasons for suffering, the reason might be for personal growth. I wonder what the rest of you think the reason for you experiencing spiritual abuse is.

Here’s some information on deliberative theology and some references to information about it and the book on the web.

You can read about the first 6 pages of How to Think Theologically book here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0800...06#reader-page


Embedded theology is that kind of theological content that is in us without our necessarily being aware of it. Embedded theology can come from early childhood ideas of God Jesus etc. Embedded theology can come from hymn texts prayers and sermons that reinforce ideas. Embedded theology can come from family friends and neighbours. These are influences subtle and explicit that form a theological mindset ... http://www.bioinformatics.vg/Books/h...800629671.html


Those churches and theological communities that resist critical analysis and reflection stand on shaky ground. They discourage questioning, often appealing to the ultimate source ('Who are you to question God?') when such arise. What is sometimes missed is that it is not God who is being questioned (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, given the number of times in the Bible examples of God being questioned and bargained with are presented), but rather an individual's or community's preconceptions of God that are being questioned.

This gets into deliberative theology. Deliberative theology is a second-order process, of asking important questions about who, what, when, where, how and why. Not all questions can be answered. Not all will be relevant. Sometimes, deliberative theology will serve to strengthen the embedded theological ideas; sometimes, deliberative processes will cause a reconstruction and reconception. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...114394-8383156


It is this 2nd order theological reflection which carries us forward when our embedded theology proves inadequate. This second order of theology is a form of reflection marked by a certain critical distance toward each testimony of faith. e.g. A toddler wanders too near the edge of his grandparents swimming pool, falls in and drowns in a tragic accident.

The embedded theology of the parents leads them to state their anguish in terms such as: ‘why does a God who is all-powerful and altogether good allow my child to die?' The ‘why' indicates that at this very moment they face a question of faith for which their embedded theology is not proving helpful or healing.

When we engage in deliberative theological reflection we are examining the adequacy of convictions in order to arrive at a deeper, more authentic, more integrated, more satisfying understanding of Christian faith and practice. http://www.chalmersunitedchurch.com/...s/jul22s01.htm

*******************************