"God is order"

[Lvanett]

Hi there,

I got an email from a well-meaning brother in Christ (nobody here, someone from another forum) who made some observations on some things I'd written him. He asked why I wasn't in church, and I shared my experiences with him.

He made some accusations and statements that somewhat shocked me: that "God is order, not chaos..." that "a successful church service is ordered"....that I am in rebellion against all authority figures including God....that I have a haughty spirit....that I want to "control the music without order"...and that I had better humble myself before Him, "bend to those in authority over you" and let go of this need to control, because otherwise I'm just burying my gifts and "pride cometh before a fall". He kept emphasizing how there is a need for order and I'd better submit to it, because "God is order."

I'm just as confused as ever over this one. Anyone ever hear this? It sounds like legalism to me...thoughts?

[Theodora]

....oh WOW! Just that phrase alone in the subject line got me semi-"triggered," and I thought...."Uh oh....NOW what!"

Nope.... I'm REALLY uncomfortable with this point of view, but will have to do some more thinking about this before I could really tell you what my thoughts are here.

At the moment, what's coming to mind is a choice phrase from a book I've liked, the title of which is Your God is too Small (J.B. Phillips) It may be that God, as Creator DOES bring "order" out of chaos (and that we, acting "with" him are part of that "ordering" action) BUT...that is a far cry from making the leap to see in the institutionalized, "ordered" church as the "proof" that that is truly (and exclusively) where God is acting and that anyone outside of that "order" is not a part of God's "plan"/"action"...whatever.

BADLY put....but I hope/trust you see at least something of where I'm headed with this little train of thought.

More as able. Thanks for sharing.

Theodora

P.S. and YES...this DOES sound like "legalism" and I would be VERY careful as to what this "friend" is trying to "do" to you!

--



Hi there,

I got an email from a well-meaning brother in Christ (nobody here, someone from another forum) who made some observations on some things I'd written him. He asked why I wasn't in church, and I shared my experiences with him.

He made some accusations and statements that somewhat shocked me: that "God is order, not chaos..." that "a successful church service is ordered"....that I am in rebellion against all authority figures including God....that I have a haughty spirit....that I want to "control the music without order"...and that I had better humble myself before Him, "bend to those in authority over you" and let go of this need to control, because otherwise I'm just burying my gifts and "pride cometh before a fall". He kept emphasizing how there is a need for order and I'd better submit to it, because "God is order."

I'm just as confused as ever over this one. Anyone ever hear this? It sounds like legalism to me...thoughts?

[Jerry]

Dear Lynda,,,
On your list of friends,,,,,,,,,Move this guys name to the Enemys column ;)
Love Jerry

[newlife]

Hi there,

I got an email from a well-meaning brother in Christ (nobody here, someone from another forum) who made some observations on some things I'd written him. He asked why I wasn't in church, and I shared my experiences with him.

He made some accusations and statements that somewhat shocked me: that "God is order, not chaos..." that "a successful church service is ordered"....that I am in rebellion against all authority figures including God....that I have a haughty spirit....that I want to "control the music without order"...and that I had better humble myself before Him, "bend to those in authority over you" and let go of this need to control, because otherwise I'm just burying my gifts and "pride cometh before a fall". He kept emphasizing how there is a need for order and I'd better submit to it, because "God is order."

I'm just as confused as ever over this one. Anyone ever hear this? It sounds like legalism to me...thoughts?

OH BOY, does that ever sound familiar!!!! Sounds just like my former "pastor"/cult leader! He even referred to it as "Divine Order"...saying things like, "You're not really in submission to God if you can't submit to a man." Well, scripture just doesn't line up to that way of thinking. These people who are accusing you of "the need to control" are actually wanting to control YOU! Does that make sense? If you're curious and up to it, do some research on the heresy of "kingdom theology"...but only if you really want to know! This is a LOOOONNNNNG article, but a very thorough explanation by Al Dager. Here's one website that it's on: http://www.erwm.com/KingdomTheology1.htm.

Anyway, yes it is definitely legalism and don't let it confuse you...the enemy just wants to bring you under bondage...

Hope that helps!

Love, newlife

[SpinningHead]

"God is order, not chaos..." that "a successful church service is ordered"....
I don't have too much of a problem with these observations...


that I am in rebellion against all authority figures including God....that I have a haughty spirit....that I want to "control the music without order"...and that I had better humble myself before Him, "bend to those in authority over you" and let go of this need to control, because otherwise I'm just burying my gifts and "pride cometh before a fall".

What's he basing these statements on?? To me, (just my thoughts/impressions when I read your post) it reads like he's projecting his own issues onto you. That you standing up for yourself, calling abuse "abuse" is in somewhat triggering him to get you under some ideologies that he's having issues with.

I think (again, IMHO) we all have a responsibility to control (to what extent we can) ourselves, which includes what teachings we submit to, adhere to, activities we participate in...we have the control/obligation to question what we are being faced with. Who says you're not being humble before God when you're taking control of your part to own? Why is he implying "humble" is the opposite of "control" as a blanket statement?

Since you asked for our thoughts, my thoughts would be that I would not take any of this personally, but really explore what his motivations are for writing what he did, and why he even felt comfortable enough to say such things to you. ~or~ completely ignore him as you know his statements have nothing to do with where you are today.



He kept emphasizing how there is a need for order and I'd better submit to it, because "God is order."
Again, why does he feel he can say these things to you? (and don't let him get away with the old, "that's what the Holy Spirit led me to say" line...see right through that! He needs to own why he felt he could say these things to you)

God is a lot of things...who says you're not willing to submit yourself to God? We ALL know that a "church" does not equate God or God's will.


I'm just as confused as ever over this one. Anyone ever hear this? It sounds like legalism to me...thoughts?
It does sound like he's projecting (his own) legalism onto you...and it may very well be that the fact you're not a slave to legalism, threatens what he knows to be all he knows. If he feels you have to be in church to be in order.... what the heck was he taught? and is he a slave to that thinking?? does he really believe that?? how sad! :(

I think this e-mail is all about him and not so much you. If possible, have compassion...don't let it get to you, you KNOW what you've been through and where you are today. This person's opinions can't change who you are today!

If none of this helps, please disregard. Them's my impressions. :)

[Lvanett]

Thanx everyone for confirming what I felt in my heart but was unsure about.

I told this man my experiences of spiritual abuse, and then several days later got a LONG reply, like about 5 pages. The more I read it though, the more I began to see....he thinks I want total control of worship.

One other thing he said which bothers me, is "you can't expect God to do something special every Sunday, it wouldn't stand out as much." How nervy is that???? I feel like writing him back and saying, are you limiting God by thinking that God couldn't possibly do something special every Sunday? God is GOD, He can put new songs on a person's heart every Sunday if He so chooses, He can touch people every Sunday, etc.

[Voyager]

From the Charismania Dictionary:

Church Order
A phrase used by a pastoral or spiritual authority figure to control group members through fear of being out of "God's order". This phrase is commonly used to dupe and manipulate followers to do the leader's will in an unquestionable manner. Example: "You are out of order for questioning me. Now go sit down and repent."

:cool:

P.S. - I've yet to publish this dictionary. :D

[newlife]

From the Charismania Dictionary:



:cool:

P.S. - I've yet to publish this dictionary. :D

Yes, I think that I would like to "pre-buy" a copy of your dictionary! :D :D :D

[newlife]

God is GOD, He can put new songs on a person's heart every Sunday if He so chooses, He can touch people every Sunday, etc.

Yes, indeed...in fact he can put new songs on a person's heart every day for that matter!!!

[Lvanett]

From the Charismania Dictionary:



:cool:

P.S. - I've yet to publish this dictionary. :D


If you have such a dictionary, I would truly love to read it.
I have been ministering to some friends offline who have been thru spiritual abuse and it might help!

I think you should publish it!

BTW, do you or anyone else know if there's a particular scripture that is the basis for this "God is order" stuff?

[Illuminated]

BTW, do you or anyone else know if there's a particular scripture that is the basis for this "God is order" stuff?Maybe he is referring to 1 Corinthians 14:26-30 which talks about exercising gifts in worship. Verse 40 in my NAS Bible says "But let all things be done proprely and in an orderly manner."

One time last year the pastor and elders of my church had to ask a certain woman not to return to the services. They did this in private, and after first talking to her in private about her actions during the service THREE times. She would keep spouting in tongues when everyone else was quiet or when the worship had died down. If everyone else felt the HS and was reverent and bowing down, she would be standing up and babbling loudly. She claimed the only authority she was under was the authority of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know your exact situation, and I doubt that it is like the one that I described above, but I think that there indeed are times when God's order is in question, and maybe humans need to try and do something about it. However, the words he said to you in the email sound to me like they were not helpful to you at all, and he probably shouldn't have said them!

[mary]

Hi there,

I got an email from a well-meaning brother in Christ (nobody here, someone from another forum) who made some observations on some things I'd written him. He asked why I wasn't in church, and I shared my experiences with him.

He made some accusations and statements that somewhat shocked me: that "God is order, not chaos..." that "a successful church service is ordered"....that I am in rebellion against all authority figures including God....that I have a haughty spirit....that I want to "control the music without order"...and that I had better humble myself before Him, "bend to those in authority over you" and let go of this need to control, because otherwise I'm just burying my gifts and "pride cometh before a fall". He kept emphasizing how there is a need for order and I'd better submit to it, because "God is order."

I'm just as confused as ever over this one. Anyone ever hear this? It sounds like legalism to me...thoughts?

:eek: :eek: :eek: I just heard virtually those very words from a pastor around here whose puny, little, 12-person fellowship I declined to join!

What do they do, send e-mails around to each other so that they can make sure there's the requisite amount of uniformity in their miserable attempts to humiliate the flock???

Sheesh!!!

mary

[Lvanett]

believe me, I Know the feeling!!

Churches seem to think order = control.

I've been trying to find something that offers some insight into the 1 Corinthians 14:40 part. All I've found so far is sermons defending a church's need for order.

[peanut]

Thanx everyone for confirming what I felt in my heart but was unsure about.

I told this man my experiences of spiritual abuse, and then several days later got a LONG reply, like about 5 pages. The more I read it though, the more I began to see....he thinks I want total control of worship.

One other thing he said which bothers me, is "you can't expect God to do something special every Sunday, it wouldn't stand out as much." How nervy is that???? I feel like writing him back and saying, are you limiting God by thinking that God couldn't possibly do something special every Sunday? God is GOD, He can put new songs on a person's heart every Sunday if He so chooses, He can touch people every Sunday, etc.


This "you can't expect God to do somkething special every Sunday, it wouldn't stand out so much" Just KILLS me. The pastor(?) of our old church actually said to a team of creative people who desired to take worship to the next level that "You Can't go to the mountaintop every Sunday." First, I'm not sure he understands the Mountaintop & secondly, he has obviously never been there. Obviously, those who short change God and attempt to tell people he is not ALWAYS available to touch a heart are missing something pretty important!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OK I'm gonna breathe now, Sorry for the outburst

[yeshua'smags]

Don't apologize! You should do it more often!:D ;)

[Pinkie Pie]

He's full of crap.

[aftermath]

What is the mountain top????:confused:

[newlife]

believe me, I Know the feeling!!

Churches seem to think order = control.

I've been trying to find something that offers some insight into the 1 Corinthians 14:40 part. All I've found so far is sermons defending a church's need for order.


*******************Scripture Triggers, Please Beware*******************

Since being in the cult and experiencing A LOT of scripture twisting, I am very conscious of the context that a verse is in and who is being addressed. If you look at 1 Corinthians 14, Paul was dealing with a specific issue within the Corinthian church. A few verses before verse 40 Paul was saying that women should be silent. Well, as you may know, there are churches that teach that women are to be silent in church, based on this scripture. But Paul wasn't making a general rule here, he was dealing with a specific issue within the Corinthian church. There are plenty of other scriptures where Paul affirms women in ministry positions. But what I've heard about the Corinthian church was that the women and men were sitting on opposite sides of the room and the women were shouting questions over to their husbands about things that they didn't understand. That would be very confusing! In verse 39, Paul says, "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." He is encouraging the freedom of the Holy Spirit to move in the service in that verse! He is NOT advocating man's control over the service! I see it as he is just telling them to be led by the Holy Spirit, but to do things in an orderly manner, so that it isn't confusing. No one gets anything out of a confusing situation, except confusion...which is extremely frustrating!

Anyway, that's my "take" on 1 Corinthians 14. Take what works and leave the rest!

Love, newlife

[yeshua'smags]

aftermath,

I'm not sure if this is what the others meant, but "the mountaintop" to me is when people get touched and the Holy Spirit is very heavy and obviously present.:) Good question!;)