Article on Narcissism/"religious organizations"

[mary]

I found this fascinating, rather scholarly article on narcissism that mentions its common prevalence in religious organizations... It is so apropos of the situation I was recently kicked out of that it knocks my socks off. :) :o

My former pastor is a classic narcissist...

http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html

I think that putting people and experiences in context - and hence in their proper places - is a vital step in our recovery from what they've done to us. We're normal (or, at least, we're not abnormal in the same way that they are); they're not.

So glad to have this nut - and his stupid, phony, little congregation - in my rearview mirror!

mary

[hornblower]

Im sure mine was too on some level. He was so cool at it though. Never said much always looked so relaxed and even bored. All knowing. Like he knew what you were thinking and this I think was all important to me, he acted like he knew what God was thinking.
He was a big man too.
All in all I knew it was dangerous to be around him but I thought I could handle it. I had come from a good situation with a good church and a good pastor who cared for all of us. I thought I would be ok since I figured I was healed from all of this abuse stuff. The only thing I was thinking of is what does God want me to do and what can I do to help others? and of course prayer for my daughter. Thankyou for this Mary its very interesting and Im going to show it to my husband tonight because he is having a difficult time at work with a man that is working for him.
Its fun for me to see that finally people in the work force are taking a true interest in personalities and relationship problems. Wah lah here I am, been there, been doing this for awhile, yeah duh...............been telling my husband and my son about it forever. Now they listen??????????

[yeshua'smags]

not.

So glad to have this nut - and his stupid, phony, little congregation - in my rearview mirror!

mary

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: Mary!!

You should put this on a t-shirt for us and we will buy them from you!!!!
I'm writing it down and taping it to my computer...and my fridge...and my bathroom mirror...and.....:D ;)

[mary]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: Mary!!

You should put this on a t-shirt for us and we will buy them from you!!!!
I'm writing it down and taping it to my computer...and my fridge...and my bathroom mirror...and.....:D ;)

An inspired, capital idea, Maggie! :) ;)

What I would really like to do is take the church logo and have it put on a tee-shirt. Then I would have printed, also on the front, "So glad to have this nutcase pastor and this creepy congregation..." and then on the back, "...in my rear-view mirror!" Then I could wear it to a certain mall that's about a half-mile from said creepy congregation. Too bad I'm such a poor "signboard" (4'10", just over 100 lbs.). I'd really like people to see the message. Of course, it's arguably libel, but I wouldn't be naming names. A person would have to know the church to know who I was libelling...

Maybe it would be better to just do what you said, or have a tee-shirt printed up that says, "I survived ***** Church!" :D :D :D

mary

[yeshua'smags]

DO IT! DO IT!

Apparently there are a lot of us that have survived "nut jobs"! I know at least 3 of us on here that would buy it for ourselves, our husbands, our kids...you could make major $$$$$$!!:D :D :p :D :D

Right peanut and jimsmuse??;)

[jimsmuse]

Yes indeed, I printed out what the site said and brought it home for my husband to read. Textbook crazy our old minister is!!!:D And the most revealing thing was the church leadership is narcissistic too and that is what makes it intolerable.:eek:
Why are there so many? How do we get people away from them":(
love always, jimsmuse

[mary]

Why are there so many? How do we get people away from them":(
love always, jimsmuse

Jimsmuse,

As I said, I think, on another thread, avoiding crackpot clergy and their toadies is like trying to avoid gum on the sidewalk in front of a junior high... :D I myself haven't been able to do it in the last six years.

You can scrape the soles of your shoes forever, but these people's stench and their saliva will still be there. Fortunately, you can always get new shoes - and someday, we'll be walking in those new shoes on better streets in the new Jerusalem! :) :D

I have some theories about why there are so many nuts out there now. Some "clergy" - not all, by any means - are making up their own rules willy-nilly, virtually "writing" their own bibles and "catechisms" and paying no attention whatsoever to what the real Word of God says. Plus, as some of these other sites on narcissism say (see Sam Vaknin's materials), the vocation itself tends to attract some individuals who tend towards "self-advancement," shall we say. I've met some wonderful, Godly people in ministry, some lately -- but the frogs far outweigh the princes, especially since about 2000. The trappings of the cultural "it's all about me" philosophy have grabbed the Church by the throat - and it kind of clashes with those of us who do, in our hearts, believe instead that "it's all about Jesus Christ."

I think we need to pray for the clergy; we need to pray for the very salvation of a great number of them, actually...

mary

[yeshua'smags]

MARY!!!:D ;) :D ;) :D ;) :) :) :)

You are so wise! And you say the best stuff!

The Church has totally become "all about me"!

I think you are right, it has seemed to escallated in the past 6 years. I think it is a spirit. Satan knows that if he makes believers disillusioned, and hurt so badly we'll want to give up. Then we have nowhere to go when it is the church that does the disillusioning, and hurting.

Am I redundant today or what?:D

[newlife]

I found this fascinating, rather scholarly article on narcissism that mentions its common prevalence in religious organizations... It is so apropos of the situation I was recently kicked out of that it knocks my socks off. :) :o

My former pastor is a classic narcissist...

http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html

I looked at the article briefly, but I'll have to go back and read it when I'm in more of a "reading mood"...I have to be in the right frame of mind to read those "scholarly articles"! :D


I think that putting people and experiences in context - and hence in their proper places - is a vital step in our recovery from what they've done to us. We're normal (or, at least, we're not abnormal in the same way that they are); they're not.

So glad to have this nut - and his stupid, phony, little congregation - in my rearview mirror!

mary

Yes! Yes! Yes! This is exactly where I'm at right now! Putting these people and experiences in context, in their proper places! I've had that exact thought...they are the abnormal ones! Having some distance now from the situation, I can see how abnormal they really are!

And I love the comment...I think I'll post it on my refrigerator door too! "So glad to have this nut - and his stupid, phony, little congregation - in my rearview mirror!" I love it!!! I love it!!! I love it!!! :D :D :D

You've made me smile, Mary!!!

Love, newlife

[mary]

Hey, ladies!

Thanks! You've all made my day! It feels so nice to be on the same page with other people for a change! :D :D :D (You can't feel like that when you're the only swan in a cuckoos' nest, can you? ;) ) "I'm not such an ugly duckling..."

(I had a little trouble with logging in here off and on today and yesterday... I don't think it's my equipment - or it had better not be, after all my computer problems last fall! :) )

I'm waiting for the overhead screen, CCM version of "My Way" to come out. Or no! I'm mistaken: that version would only be for meetings of "session" and "presbyteries" and whatever (ministers-only events, in other words), wouldn't it?!

Anybody remember "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying?" There's a song in that show called "I Believe in You." The actor who sings it does so while staring into a mirror...

My former pastor would be most convincing in that part... :rolleyes: :cool: He sure wasn't convincing at all in his drawn-out, "oh-how-do-I-fool-them-and-God-this-time?" prayers from his perpetually defiled pulpit.

(Uh, I think I'm still a little bitter - but trying to laugh anyway...!)

Love to all,

mary

[newlife]

(You can't feel like that when you're the only swan in a cuckoos' nest, can you? ;) ) "I'm not such an ugly duckling..."


I love this line...the only swan in a cuckoos' nest...how appropriate!!! How about, "it's hard to be an eagle when you're flying with a bunch of turkeys!" :D :D :D

I've had a little bit of a problem getting the forum to come up today too...had to try a few times before it came up.

"My Way"...oh, that brings back memories! The cult leader used to use that song as an illustration for the congregation (projecting on us and saying that we did it "our way")...how nice to see things clearly now. ("I can see clearly now the rain is gone"...remember that song?) My eyes have been opened to the truth and I can see that the tables are now turned and I see that HE'S really the one singing it!!! :D :D :D And how VERY, VERY NICE it is to see that I'm NOT doing it "His Way" any longer!!! :D :D :D

love, newlife

[newlife]

Mary,

I just took the time to read the article...very good! Lots of excellent points...I must admit that I wished that I had had this information while I was still in the cult! Maybe it would have empowered me to speak out and not allow that narcissism to intimidate me like it did.

I thought that it was interesting when it said that narcissists will say outright lies or bull**** with smugness that no one will challenge them. I believe that the cult leader does this...I can remember hearing him lie so many times and I even knew it was a lie, and I would think to myself, "why is he saying that? He knows that's not true!" But did I ever challenge him on anything that he said? No, because I was too intimidated!!!

And character assassination of those who contradict them...oh yeah!!! That's happened to our family! And to think that he still feels the need to slander us!

Another thing that I thought was interesting was that it mentioned "black and white thinking". That is also a characteristic of a cult...so it really goes to prove that narcissism in leaders and cults go hand-in-hand.

Anyway, thanks for the link to the article...very enlightening!

Love, newlife

[newlife]

This article got my curiousity aroused, so I did some more "googling" on narcissism and found this article: http://power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm. Have you ever read it?

newlife

[mary]

This article got my curiousity aroused, so I did some more "googling" on narcissism and found this article: http://power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm. Have you ever read it?

newlife

Hi, Newlife!

Glad you liked the article... :) You're very welcome!

Yep, I've got that power2serve.net article bookmarked. It's a good one, isn't it?

Many if not most of these abusive pastors are narcissists, if they're not also sociopaths or even frank psychopaths. We need to get hold of the idea that we've been attacked by sick, evil people -- and it ain't our fault!!!:eek: :)

As far as liars go: yes, indeed! Oh, how I wish I could identify the sicko that used to be our pastor! Suffice it to say that he lied to the "mothership" of our former denomination so much so that last summer, he was a featured pastor on the back cover of their U.K.-based magazine. In that little piece, he stated he was the pastor of a congregation with "70-75" members (in his dreams! :mad: ). He also stated, for the benefit of his U.K. readers, that his congregation was "very ethnically diverse." The truth is that we had one large, black family whose older children (in their late teens and smart) were starting to see the truth about this church and attend other churches. Besides them, we had another large family, the wife and mother of whom was Asian. Their older children were also starting to wake up and smell the coffee and they were no longer attending regularly, either. Outside of that, there was no ethnic diversity, unless he was also counting me and other white Americans whose forebears had been on this side of the Atlantic for a long time. The man is an unabashed, four-alarm, flaming liar.

And character assassination: he attempted that, too; he concocted a potentially horrible lie about me and spread it around a little, but I headed that off with my slander warning letter of last December. The content of what he was saying constituted - at least in this state - slander per se about me and about someone else, too, who was not even a member of the congregation. He was using the other person's name and this person also encouraged me to have the slander warning letter sent to "pastor."

It's good to have these articles out there on the Internet so that we can see what we're dealing with. One of those articles mentions that narcissists and sociopaths manage to fool their spouses and even their mental health treaters for years and years, so why should we be surprised when they fool us?

I'm also grateful to the Lord that, well, this narcissist/sociopath/whatever threw me out when he did. It was so much better that my family and I heard not one more Godless sermon out of his filthy mouth...

Newlife, if your "pastor" and his minions are continuing to slander you, you don't need to put up with it. I mean it. Sic a lawyer on him/them! Slander warning letters are basically boiler-plate; they're meant to shut people up and let them know that if they fail to shut up, they could be brought to answer for it in a legal process that they may want to avoid. That's all I said (er, had my attorney say - ;) ) to "pastor" in our warning letter. I keep my ear close to the ground; I did hear that he was upset by that letter and as far as I know, he hasn't mentioned my name since. It worked and it was worth it.

I thank the Lord for you - and for this forum and everyone on it! :)

Love,

mary

[Illuminated]

Suffice it to say that he lied to the "mothership" of our former denomination so much so that last summer, he was a featured pastor on the back cover of their U.K.-based magazine. Hey Mary! Thanks for the reference.

Guess what? The narcissist that was in charge of the organisation I was kicked out of was featured in the cover story of a certain magazine in the States recently. The article contained unsupported claims. What is the matter with these publications... don't they verify their information?

If you think about it, the publications are just as guilty of abuse as the leaders they write about. They spread lies.... maybe that would be called information abuse? :p

[yeshua'smags]

I thank God for you too Mary!!!! We love you!!

UUUhhhh....jimsmuse??? Peanut??? Are y'all reading this??? Sound about right? Do we know any good lawyers?;)

Can totally relate to the lying so well that he fooled the higher ups!! Why does power make people stupid? Our church has a woman District Superintendant and a woman Bishop...but atrocities that happened to women at the hands of that maniac continue to go unpunished by these women! Doesn't make sense to me!

[Illuminated]

Have you ever read it?I just did. It was an eye-opener for me.:eek:

The leader of my former group fits every characteristic of that article you referenced. I can't believe it.

One of my counselors identified the leader as a narcissist back in January just from reading an email. It was hard for me to believe then, but after reading the two articles that you and Mary posted, I now believe it. :(

[newlife]

Isn't it unbelievable just how believable these people are??? :eek:

Getting published in magazines without being checked out, "higher-ups" believing their reports without verifying the truth??? The things that these people are getting away with and the havoc that it is creating in the church...I just shake my head! :rolleyes: It is SO sad! So many lives being hurt by these fakes!!!

Awhile back someone recommended a book on the forum called "Without Conscience". It is about psychopaths written by Robert Hare who has studied psychopaths for several years and is considered to be an expert in the field. I'm not sure what the difference is between a narcissist and a psychopath (sociopath is actually just another term for psychopath, I found out), but they are very similar, that's for sure. Anyway, Robert Hare related a story where even HE was taken in by a psychopath!!! And he's an expert in the field!!! :eek: He told about how believable these people are! And he said that chances are most people will encounter a psychopath in their lives at some point.

Anyway, you all might be interested in reading that book as well...I found it extremely interesting! I couldn't put it down! I was able to find a copy of it at my local library system.

Love, newlife

[mary]

Hey Mary! Thanks for the reference.

Guess what? The narcissist that was in charge of the organisation I was kicked out of was featured in the cover story of a certain magazine in the States recently. The article contained unsupported claims. What is the matter with these publications... don't they verify their information?

If you think about it, the publications are just as guilty of abuse as the leaders they write about. They spread lies.... maybe that would be called information abuse? :p

You're very welcome, Illuminated... And Maggie, awww, thanks!!! :)

So, Illuminated -- you were kicked out of an organization (sorry for the "Yank 'z'" there! :) ) that also falsely touted itself in print? Wow. Well, it stands to reason, I guess. Yeah, I don't know what's wrong with these publications. Maybe they just don't care to do fact-checks anymore. Takes up too much time, don't you know, and besides, who cares what's true anymore anyway?

Seems to me that someone named Pontius Pilate once was a little dubious about what truth was, too...! :rolleyes:

Well, there are some of us who do know and care about truth - and I intend to be one of the last ones who goes down kicking and screaming in defense of it, whether a sole pastor or a whole denomination or whomever is against me... And I know there's a legion of others in this forum who feel the same way - and that's a huge comfort...

mary

[yeshua'smags]

I'm kicking and screaming right there with you!!!! Let's get them!!:D :cool:

[Carmen]

Hi Mary, I agree with you all the way. Keep 'em in the rearview mirror! I know an internet company that will print tee shirts with custom messages, am thinking of a few slogans myself...won't post the address here, but will tell you in a PM if you want.

About sociopaths, they like to control too and have no conscience, whereas narcissists are still supposed to have one (strange though it may seem). I recently finished reading Stout's book, The Sociopath Next Door. It is a practical guide to spotting such people so that one can avoid them or at least minimalize the damage in one's own life. One of my childhood friends was like that, and I suspect one salesman I met and a former boss. I didn't have enough exposure to the pastor that SA'd me to be sure about him, and I don't want to risk it to find out.

[Illuminated]

I found this information in an old thread here on this forum. Yikes.
Here is the link to the old thread: Adaptive Narcissism Resulting from Spiritual Abuse? (http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=5144#postid5144)
Written by Voyager on 01-30-2005, 03:10 AM

Adaptive Narcissism Resulting from Spiritual Abuse?
They are several types of narcissism, both healthy and unhealthy. I have been studying this topic lately because I see the signs of it in many people who have left spiritually abusive groups - including myself.

Adaptive narcissim can occur when an human being receives such a horrific emotional wound that they cannot even imagine what it would take to heal from it. This wound so damages the "self" of the victim that they regress into a state of adaptive narcissism. Here are a few of its symptoms:

• Intolerance for criticism and shame

• Self-loathing and self-destructive behavior

• Constant need for approval and affirmation

• Demanding and pushy

• Lack of empathy

• Fear of true "unworthy" self being exposed

• Tendency to avoid potential relationships

• Deep-seated lack of trust

• Poor self-esteem coupled with delusions of grandiosity

The process of adaptive narcissism is intended by our systems to defend against further pain and wounding stemming from broken relationships. However, left unchecked it can be somewhat destructive. The need to find a balance between healthy and unhealthy narcissism becomes paramount for recovery.

Here's an excerpt from an article that I found which sheds some light on how we can incorporate a "mixed" form of narcissism to bridge the healthy and the unhealthy aspects of this condition:


Quote: Healthy Narcissism as Asset

Unhealthy narcissism, whatever its root causes and however it is conceptualized, is a reality in the lives of creative individuals. But it is also important for therapists to look for that reservoir of healthy narcissism that may also be present. The literature on narcissism regularly fails to credit individuals with this asset and paints too one-sided a picture of the selfishness of creative persons.

For instance, Hamilton presents the case of an actor with so many narcissistic deficits that we have no reason to assume that any change is possible. Hamilton writes, "He strutted on to the ward, bragged of his movie role, sneered at the other patients as 'sickies,' set out to seduce the nurses, and condescendingly humored the psychiatrist. Even empathic comments he considered an affront to his dignity--he did not need coddling. When the psychiatrist looked at him during the interview, he felt challenged and had to do battle, proving his superiority."

But in no time, a remarkable change occurs. Hamilton describes his own role: "The analyst primarily listened and commented infrequently. The patient consequently did not feel discredited by attempts at help or by the offer of new insights. He did not lose his sense of himself or confuse his boundaries by projecting excessively onto the analyst. His unobtrusive analyst served as a self object, as another person who serves the self's function of soothing, confirming, and regulating self-esteem." Granting that the therapist served a useful role here, who actually was doing the work? Wasn't it the client? How much could a person without significant strengths be expected to improve if his or her only help came from a silent, invisible therapist?

Hamilton concluded, "Over several months, D. C. was able to begin integrating his grandiose self with his hurt and devalued self. He slowly gained the image of himself as a talented young man who needed to work hard at his chosen profession. The realization that he needed rest, orderly living, companionship, and compassion helped him become empathic. He no longer needed to project his devalued self onto other patients. He could help them build self-esteem instead of ridiculing them." If, after only a few short months, this actor had become empathic, compassionate, and more, I think we are bound to conclude that he came equipped with strengths as well as liabilities as he began therapy.

There is a lot more to this article, but this portion focuses on what I believe to be the most important issue. If we can harness the good from the narcissism that resulted from our wounds, we can use it to our own advantage. I am still working on that one. But, it helps me just to really understand why (from a psychological standpoint) I reacted the way I did when exiting my spiritually abusive group. The lack of trust, the introversion, the isolating tendencies, the hyper-defensiveness to criticism, the need for approval, the low self-esteem issues - all point to traits of adaptive narcissism (which many of us may have been suffering from even before we even entered our spiritually abusive groups).

Some have speculated that there are also symptoms of PTSD in most spiritual abuse victims, and I am not denying that - some of us may actually have been "shell shocked" due to our experiences. But for me, the adaptive narcissism seems to make more sense. Plus, by learning to understand it and find the healthy balance - it gives me hope for coping with this condition until I recover from it.

Many great artists and leaders such as Abraham Lincoln, Benjamin Franklin, Vincent van Gogh, Mick Jagger, Mel Gibson, etc. have all overcome their narcissistic tendencies to go on to perform great accomplishments in spite of their condition. Hopefully, many of us will be able to do the same.

[Carmen]

I don't remember that entry, thanks for bringing it up, Illuminated!

If that narcissist was able to recover like that I think that there is hope for the rest of us that have experienced some of the symptoms, I have at times.