Where NOT to go to church...

[yeshua'smags]

Ok guys, with my war wounds still stinging, let's all make a parody of the show, "What Not To Wear". "Where NOT To Go To Church" warning signs that say, Run!!! Run away NOW! We all have enough experience, I'd say we are experts! All the books read, counselors seen, ugly horriffic things witnessed, triggers...I'll start!

If you are at a church that is all white, and there is an audible gasp if any other race walks in, you might want to run!

If the youth and children's department does not seem to be a priority of any kind; the youth are referred to as "those kids" with much disdain.

if old people walk down the children's hall and turn into snapping turtles saying, "stop running, be quiet, stop having fun, be grown ups!" (yeah, being a grown up is looking like tons of fun! Good role model!)

If the pastor is told to "do something about those (racial slur of choice) in the church".

If someone comes in needing food, water, help with a bill, warm clothes, summer clothes, groceries, etc. and are told to go to Social Services.

And, if I may steal one from newlife, if you church requires you to call the HUMAN that preaches the sermons, "Pastor". You have a brain, you can tell whether a person is a true pastor or not. That is an EARNED title, not a required one.

Anybody else??

[ex-shep]

Great Post!! Give that submitter a latte!!

The church I attend is casual comes as you are. I am probally the only parishoner who wears hats. I joked with my wife that I should wear a $500 Brooks Brothers Suit and she in a silk opera dress complete with mink stole. [it may need to be imitation. I do not want to offend any minks out there]

We are diverse lot at church. We have had sermons touch on the qualities you mentioned. The denomination was a legalistic closed system lilly white and in the suburbs. Today is varied group from inner city to one church in the sticks in Colorado. I had to look that congregation up on the map. The associate pastor did a sermon on legalism last fall. I was not able to attend the service, but I did buy the CD. I listened to it the car. I had to pull over. The pastor practically atoned for the past sins of the group.

We do have Pastor George and Pastor Steve. I can also address them on a first name basis or refer to them thusly in a conversation. I have yet to get used to PG. There is a pastor buy the name of Xavier Rodriguez in another city. I did get some understandable chuckles when I threaten to change church affiliations if we refered to him as XR.

[hornblower]

My favorite tv show 'what not to wear' its also back on BBC now too, they originated it.............

for me I would add no mission work going on, no supporting missionairies thats always a biggy in my book and no prayer thats another biggy. I dont want to go to a church that doesnt have that or believe in it strongly.

I dont believe in building programs. We all have houses. Why not save that money and give it to each other as we have needs. ..................duh

I wish I could find a church with real honest to goodness down to earth prayer not gossip but a chance to be real and ask for prayer not opinions.

Also I think a church that does not support the twelve steps program is not all there.

And now days there needs to be good counceling centers with people trained to not bark!:cool:

[ex-shep]

My favorite tv show 'what not to wear' its also back on BBC now too, they originated it.............

for me I would add no mission work going on, no supporting missionairies thats always a biggy in my book and no prayer thats another biggy. I dont want to go to a church that doesnt have that or believe in it strongly.

I dont believe in building programs. We all have houses. Why not save that money and give it to each other as we have needs. ..................duh

I guess I may disagree with you on the building program. Ever tried to put a Cassavant organ in a living room? The current church is a modern structure. Actually a fascinating design. The previous church was 75 year old downtown church in Romanesque style. The sanctuary and music loft is pretty and has added quite a bit to my Sunday mornings. My wife still watches the webcasts. I can certainly take exception to a building campaign for self angrandizement and putting a notch in one's bible cover.


I wish I could find a church with real honest to goodness down to earth prayer not gossip but a chance to be real and ask for prayer not opinions.

I am guilty of that one. That today has me doing a slow burn. Excellent food for thought.

Also I think a church that does not support the twelve steps program is not all there.

And now days there needs to be good counceling centers with people trained to not bark!:cool:

[COLOR="Blue"] That was cute. :D

[Carmen]

Hey ex-shep,

I used to be in Colorado, was in a number of abusive and/or "false doctrine" churches there (I find that abuse and false doctrine usually come together). Some of it had to do with the poison seeping up from the World Prayer Center at Colo. Springs, Ted Haggard and co., has been seeping northward for years. I'm surprised there are any good churches left. Almost all the churches I encountered were on the east side of Denver in the burbs, but that was years ago. Have heard of one on the west side that isn't that good and been to one in the north where they were a bit wacky. Boulder's got some goodies too.



I like to avoid churches where among other things:

they expect tithing and even require it for membership

they say that every time they feel a presence that it is the Holy Spirit - they never test the spirits, some even "go down" in the "spirit"

they expect me to "speak in tongues" as proof of being "spiritual" and having the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit. Sheesh, I'm born-again, that means he is already in me. All I have to do is stay focused on God and I'll be walking in the Spirit, no second baptism needed.

they prophesy bullsh**. No church I have ever been to that allowed prophesies ever had them checked for biblical accuracy or doubted their accuracy. Everyone always said, how wonderful, amen, glory, or the trendy exclamation of the time.

they preach to pray over a city to "conquor" it for the Lord. Peter and Paul never did that or they wouldn't have had to shake their dust off their shoes in some places. No Word-of-Faith confess it and get it false beliefs for me.

they think that behavior is the A and O of Godliness - force people to be what they are not, dress up, whatever to be "spiritual" - legalistic

they never tell you where the tithing money went until it comes out that they invested it and lost it

they don't check up on who is running the youth or children's programs - in one church I went to one of the guys was a child molester wanted in a few other states

the pastor is contagious and still holds services because he thinks God is protecting him and his congregation - in one church he had hepatitis and expected a miracle

they care more about appearances than people's well-being

all they care about is growing the church, numbers and tithers, and not really helping people

you go to cell groups where they try to get personal details about you (maybe for later blackmail) and tell the deacons and pastors about it

you have to sign a paper agreeing to obey the pastor

[tke316]

:D ***Tongue in Cheek Mode ON***

10 leading indicators that your church may not have a clue what the Gospel really is...

The Behavior Impresses God (BIG) Movement exists to keep people in line

1 Centrality of the Ten Commandments
Most often heard slogan - "They are the Ten Commandments, not the Ten Suggestions"

2 Passionate about the Sabbath
When God said the 7th day, He meant the 7th day and, by God, you better keep it or He won't love you no more!

3 Fruitful Sharing of our lists of rules
In order to get everyone to march to our drum we must make sure simply everyone knows what they must do

4 Exact Worship
Not a whit or a tittle shall be varied from the order of worship. We must always say "In Jesus Name, Amen" or the prayer doesn't count.

5 Prove Ourselves Worthy-Driven
Now that we are saved we must learn and obey every decree so that God isn't ashamed of us.

6 Leadership By Self-Righteousness
He or she who follows the rules the best is obviously the most qualified for us to follow.

7 Burden Planting
Misery loves company. We want to make everyone as miserable trying to live up to the impossible standards as we are.

8 Financial Accountability
God won't love us if we don't give AT LEAST 10% of our gross. Unless, of course, we are paying for our children to go to our school or we are buying Script.

9 Intentional Discipleship
We show by example, and day planners, and endless lists of things to do and things not to do and model and mentor those who are not as mature robots as we are.

10 Facade of Relationships
We always have our best face out, since looking like we aren't pleasing to God would not put us back into remedial rule-following 101. Our relationships are only with our public presentations of each other. We find it hard to follow Paul's admonishment to "carry one-another's burdens" since to admit to having burdens would be to admit we aren't following all the rules well enough to be pleasing to God. Burdens of rule following to show ourselves to be pleasing to God cannot be shared.

***Tongue in Cheek Mode OFF***:D

[yeshua'smags]

ooooohhhhhh, that's another good one ex-shep!!

If you walk in the door and the greeter looks you up and down, judging whether or not your attire is suitable, look him/her up and down and smile, turn and walk out.

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Carmen]Hey ex-shep,

I used to be in Colorado, was in a number of abusive and/or "false doctrine" churches there (I find that abuse and false doctrine usually come together).

Examples on accurate. Great examples. I do hear the "conquering the city" rhetoric at church. It is not loud or dogmatic; so I have the luxury taking it with a grain of sodium chlroride. Colorado Springs was a focal point for shepherding. Tammy's group had its origins there. Ron and Vicki Burks talk about it in their biograhy Damaged Disciples.

I decided to take an inventory of the current church I attend and be brutally honest how the church, at least the congregation where I am member, checks out.

Tithing is encouraged, mentioned from time to time, and then it is handed by to the individual member respond as one chooses. I do get quarterly financial statements in the mail. The most coercive I have ever seen was, "we are a little behind budget, any help to close the gap would be apreciated"

I am burned out on charismatic churches. The church has been historically virulent anti-charismatic. Historical origins can been traced to Plymouth Bretheren. Today there are charismatic members in the church. There is some of the "lifting up of hands" in the worship service. There are some who may use the charismatic gifts in their own private space. Any public outburst would be dealt with quickly and tactfully. Our membership coordinator taught a class and had the scriptural backing as to why it is not a great idea.

I have decided to agree to disagree over the conquer the city rhetoric. My response is to pray for the right number in the denomination, letting the Lord have the last say. The membership coordinator was concerned that attendance was off. I suggested quality not quantity-- I also added that that and $3.50 would get one a venti nonfat one sugar latte. Maybe it was a chance to take stock of us and see where we stand as church before moving on.

I mentioned in another post how legalism has been dealt with. It has been openly talked about with repercussions. The senior pastor started out in the shepherding years. Part of him knows he has to own the past, but wishes it were not there. I have not had any indepth conversation, but I rather suspect he has had humble pie a la mode.

The church has a big children building. It is complety separated from the rest of the church. Having no children of my own, I am unable to comment. At the previous church, Sunday school workers were required to attend orientation. Expectations were set. I do remember a background check was required. Both churches, the childrens facilities are secure with passkeys. Both churces, children had option of attending either worship or going to classes.

If a pastor calls in sick, there is usually one who can fill in. I have seen s in the family of the pastors and emotional honesty in how they are processing the loss. The student pastor had to fill in when the backup was laid up with the flu.

I must confess the church growth emphasis can be a bit cloying-- but then I have not felt forced into lockstep to agree with it. Given the size of the church, asking for help can be bureaucratic. It felt overwhelming to me. The church is providing free counseling with a student intern. It is an good therapuetic relationship. The counselor and I do disagree on methodologies, but has not pushed the issue. I did ask if we could address current issues. He was amenable in that area.

I have yet to get into a small group. You are absolutely right about how the small group will pass personal details to the leadership. It was a cult of confession in the early years of Tammy's group. The prayer meetings I have attended are open in the sharing.

I was at first unnerved that one of the covenants was not to gossip. I remember all too well that any member critcical of the church, or even concerned was branded as a gossip and therefore shunned. I was a great buzzward to separate friends and family. The church knows about the situation with Tammy. It is an open book. I had some indepth discussions on the topic. I was not going to get fooled again--- with apologies to the Who. I scoured the church library resources and looked up the word gossip. I studied how the word was used in context. The general rule of thumb is not to interfere in something that not one's business. I will definitely leave room for my being in denial. The purpose of avoiding gossip, at least as far as the covenant is concerned, strikes me more as emotional safety than a thought stopping cliche or some other pyschological restraint.

Obeying the pastor grates me the wrong way too. During the shepherding years, everything was filtered through the elders. It almost got to the point, just get to heaven, one would have to speak to the elders for approval. The elders said it, it is finished. A classic case in point is where an elder told a member, who was a college student that he was to go to another city for a missions trip right before finals. When the student said he had exams to take, he was shot down with, "I'm the Elder, You obey me." "Bob" told the elder to get out and that was the end of his involvment. [Oddly enough, that elder and I are on friendly terms. He has mellowed out over the years and has been making amends to former members] The pentecostal bible school, everything was filtered through the administation for ultimate approval. This is nice, folks, but where does the Holy Spirit fit into the picture? In contrast, today members are encouraged, "Just do not follow us [pastors]. Check the sources, read other books, check the internet, listen to the radio for different perspectives to help your walk in the Lord".

Thank you for your inventory and allowing me to check my motives. Keeps me emotionally sober.

[ex-shep]

ooooohhhhhh, that's another good one ex-shep!!

If you walk in the door and the greeter looks you up and down, judging whether or not your attire is suitable, look him/her up and down and smile, turn and walk out.


Ten points that was good. I do personally have to draw the line at wearing shorts. I still have not gotten used to that one.

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=tke316]:D ***Tongue in Cheek Mode ON***

10 leading indicators that your church may not have a clue what the Gospel really is...

That made for some good comic relief.

I still laugh at the line a "brother" in the bible school lamented:

The sisters pray and we read the [student] handbook.

[hornblower]

ex shep..........

I guess I may disagree with you on the building program. Ever tried to put a Cassavant organ in a living room? The current church is a modern structure. Actually a fascinating design. The previous church was 75 year old downtown church in Romanesque style. The sanctuary and music loft is pretty and has added quite a bit to my Sunday mornings. My wife still watches the webcasts. I can certainly take exception to a building campaign for self angrandizement and putting a notch in one's bible cover.

I dont mean no church building I mean building after building after building after building..........its just like a huge commune sometimes and it way too expensive. No I dont have a thing against building a church building but.................I secretly cannot stand organs...................sorry.

I was a part of a church that had the largest organ in supposedly this part of the world or something like that. Thats ok (I guess)because they also gave a lot to missions and they did help people. Not me of course, Im the Mother of an almost murdered daughter. Cant have one of those lurking around.

Then that really good church I was in they had a little organ on one side and a piano on the other. The pastor (a new pastor didnt know what he was doing)decided to liven things up and become a little more charismatic so he took the organ out so then since it was donated by an old family with a son who played the organ and the piano and maybe wasnt so modern in their estimation...........the whole family left and took their piano and organ with them.
That was the beginning of the end........it was crushing what happened. I fought for the organ to remain............absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing in my book says we should evere do anything to huret someone especially in worship. People worship different ways. God has many sides to Him He made us all. Above all LOVE one another! I kept saying it and saying it and people kept ignoring me and ignoring me...............no more church, gone, zappo!!!!!!!!!!!!

However none of this effected my worship time. There here where ever it is how ever it is thats my time with Him.........I dont need music I dont need nothin I found out..................they ended up with nothing but that poor young pastor singing acapella.
See they got rid of Richard. Richard knew how to keep it all together. Love and humility and let people be who they are and love them that way. Our church was definitely integrated too. Gosh that was such a good place to be.

[ex-shep]

I dont mean no church building I mean building after building after building after building..........its just like a huge commune sometimes and it way too expensive. No I dont have a thing against building a church building but.................I secretly cannot stand organs...................sorry.

I was a part of a church that had the largest organ in supposedly this part of the world or something like that.

Ok, You got me there. We have a megachurch in the area. Everybody likes the pastor and the programs, except for one thing: IT'S TOO BIG.

You will have to shoot me a PM where the organ was. I am an organ enthusiast. The church has a rock band, so I do miss the high church aspects.

[Doug64]

I agree on the shorts...........that's a little too casual.
I'm very glad to have shed the tie though. Those things kill my neck. Got rid of it years ago at the office.

Ex shep said:
" In contrast, today members are encouraged, "Just do not follow us [pastors]. Check the sources, read other books, check the internet, listen to the radio for different perspectives to help your walk in the Lord".

Our former group said that, too, and then proceeded to tell us where to look in scripture to prove what the pastor said was correct.
Sneaky tricks!

Avoid a church that requires you to go through their indoctrination classes.

Doug

[ex-shep]

I agree on the shorts...........that's a little too casual.
I'm very glad to have shed the tie though. Those things kill my neck. Got rid of it years ago at the office.

Ex shep said:
" In contrast, today members are encouraged, "Just do not follow us [pastors]. Check the sources, read other books, check the internet, listen to the radio for different perspectives to help your walk in the Lord".

Our former group said that, too, and then proceeded to tell us where to look in scripture to prove what the pastor said was correct.
Sneaky tricks!

Avoid a church that requires you to go through their indoctrination classes.

Doug

100% percent accurate. Don't you just love hidden agenda. It is so much fun. The indoctrination classes do use the Saddleback fill in the blanks catechism. I will give the facilitators credit for suggesting several resources, different Christian bookstore. So far I have been a position to take what I want and leave the rest.

My wife and I attempt to join a Presbyterian church that played good cop/bad cop. The pastors had complete freedom to preach and set the sermon topics and worship. The shell was not set until the new members class. The ministers would talk about the freedom in Christ. The lay leaders set the tone if you were not 110% committed to the church, you would fall away. Make sure you tithe and be here every night and Sundays too. Needless to say, we bolted out the of the building leaving a gaping silouhette in the door, put the car in warp drive , burned rubber and never went back. :eek:

[Carmen]

Thank you for your inventory and allowing me to check my motives. Keeps me emotionally sober.

Yeah, I think a re-check is necessary every so often, I keep doing it because I'm not finished working through the abuse, but even after that it may help keep me healthy. Am currently trying to find a group to discuss such things here, if such a group exists. Maybe I'll have to talk to a few professionals and see if one can get started... The "inventory" was for everybody, just a summary of what I've been through, most of it in Colorado. That place is such a mess spiritually speaking. Glad you found a church you can live with though. The previous exclusivist church with your silhouette and burning rubber and warp drive... had to chuckle at that one. :)

[Doug64]

LOL!

Reminds me of a song about the little band that played at a backwoods church where they used snakes in the service.

There was one line where one guy asked where the back door was.
The other guy replied; "I don't think there is one...wonder where they want one."

I'd have been out of there right behind you.

Doug

[yeshua'smags]

they expect me to "speak in tongues" as proof of being "spiritual" and having the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit. Sheesh, I'm born-again, that means he is already in me. All I have to do is stay focused on God and I'll be walking in the Spirit, no second baptism needed.

This one really pisses me off! Tongues is a gift, not a prerequisite for acceptance!! Not everyone can do it! And faking it is sick!

they prophesy bullsh**. No church I have ever been to that allowed prophesies ever had them checked for biblical accuracy or doubted their accuracy. Everyone always said, how wonderful, amen, glory, or the trendy exclamation of the time.

hehehe, "trendy exclaimation of the time" hehehe


they think that behavior is the A and O of Godliness - force people to be what they are not, dress up, whatever to be "spiritual" - legalistic

Yes!! Down with the legalists!:D :D :D :D ;)

they never tell you where the tithing money went until it comes out that they invested it and lost it

Yes and isn't investing gambling?? And isn't that a no no?

they don't check up on who is running the youth or children's programs - in one church I went to one of the guys was a child molester wanted in a few other states

Well that will keep me up tonight.

they care more about appearances than people's well-being
[
They care about their own well-being though! And their own agenda, and that does not include the "poor" or "dirty" or another race.[/COLOR

all they care about is growing the church, numbers and tithers, and not really helping people

Until people start leaving, then they say they didn't need them anyway. That they were in the way of their "vision".

you go to cell groups where they try to get personal details about you (maybe for later blackmail) and tell the deacons and pastors about it

Ahhh....yes we are familiar with this one!! I call them the "Ides of March"!

you have to sign a paper agreeing to obey the pastor[/QUOTE]

EEEK! Run!!! I obey Yeshua thank you, I don't need a go between. As out new preacher pointed out, the temple curtain was torn in two when Jesus died! There are no more barriers between God and us!! Not even ones with a seminary degree!

[newlife]

Until people start leaving, then they say they didn't need them anyway. That they were in the way of their "vision".[/COLOR]

OUCH!!! Yep, I know what that one feels like!!! :mad:

you have to sign a paper agreeing to obey the pastor

EEEK! Run!!! I obey Yeshua thank you, I don't need a go between. As out new preacher pointed out, the temple curtain was torn in two when Jesus died! There are no more barriers between God and us!! Not even ones with a seminary degree!

Don't remember signing a paper, but it was the "rule of the house"! "Blind obedience" was the greatest virtue one could possess at the cult! Or should I say, "Mindless obedience"??? hmmmmm...

[Carmen]

you have to sign a paper agreeing to obey the pastor


EEEK! Run!!! I obey Yeshua thank you, I don't need a go between. As out new preacher pointed out, the temple curtain was torn in two when Jesus died! There are no more barriers between God and us!! Not even ones with a seminary degree!

Yep, Newlife, mindless obedience. When the new concept was introduced some of the more scripturally versed people, especially one bible-study teacher disagreed they were pounced on immediately. The "authorities" didn't even want to let him talk to the group to say goodbye. They even had bouncers at the door to keep him out and anyone that spoke well about him. That alone opened some people's eyes and caused them to leave.

[Lvanett]

I haven't been here in a while. Yall have given some good ideas here. I agree with much of it. :)

Here's my "where NOT to go to church list"

Do NOT, under any circumstance, go to any church that:

- insists on rules that are NOT biblical, such as not allowing women to wear pants. Where in the bible is this even suggested????

- uses "scare tactics" to keep you in submission, such as threats from the Pastor.

- tries to make you believe it is biblical to submit to a Pastor, or have to become a "member" before they will allow you to serve or do anything else. IT'S NOT BIBLICAL. Check the scriptures they quote against what God's word says. In some cases, you'll have to do some in-depth studying to get to the true meaning behind some scriptures. There are some good sites that also address the issue of "membership" and also examine the key verses used to justify this wrongful stance. Here's one I just found that deals with Hebrews 13:17 - http://home.earthlink.net/~mybrotherskeeper/id44.html
(This is a big issue for me, because so many churches believe it truly is biblical to have membership, or submit to a Pastor/Leader or "authority" figure in their church, and there are many sites who try to prove so. Sometimes you have to wade thru much muddy water to get to the good, dry land.)

- is more focused on "seekers" than believers. There's nothing wrong with reaching out to seekers, and leading them to Christ, but what about once they become Christians and learn the basics of Christianity? Where can they go to learn more and grow in Christ? The Lord doesn't want us to remain babies forever, He does expect us to "grow up" at some point.

- Refuses to let the Holy Spirit move. This can be via a number of methods, including:
* being bound by "traditions" or "denominational beliefs"
* fear of change/not wanting to leave their "comfort zone"
* wanting to do things "my way" instead of God's
* a need on the Pastor's part to control things instead of letting HIM control
things
* stubbornness/hard-heartedness
* the pastor or someone else thinking they know better than the Lord
(DANGEROUS)

- makes contradictory statements. Some churches will say things just to keep people there that are contradictory to what they actually practice. For instance, at one church I went to, I was told they had "no cliques" - yet it was clear that cliques abounded there. I was also told they were a "healing church", meaning they weren't abusive toward members, but seeing how controlling the Pastor was and how he treated those who dared to question him, it was evident they WEREN'T that way.

[Carmen]

Great points Lynda, especially this one:


- tries to make you believe it is biblical to submit to a Pastor, or have to become a "member" before they will allow you to serve or do anything else. IT'S NOT BIBLICAL. Check the scriptures they quote against what God's word says. In some cases, you'll have to do some in-depth studying to get to the true meaning behind some scriptures. There are some good sites that also address the issue of "membership" and also examine the key verses used to justify this wrongful stance. Here's one I just found that deals with Hebrews 13:17 - http://home.earthlink.net/~mybrotherskeeper/id44.html
(This is a big issue for me, because so many churches believe it truly is biblical to have membership, or submit to a Pastor/Leader or "authority" figure in their church, and there are many sites who try to prove so. Sometimes you have to wade thru much muddy water to get to the good, dry land.)

The only thing I'd check up on someone before I'd let them work with children is if they have been charged with child molesting in the past, that was under one of my points because in one church I was in some guy that was wanted wormed his way into the children's program and was trying to be a "father replacement" for the children of single mothers. :eek:

[aftermath]

hey hornblower, we dont all have houses. some people live on the street. and the bible says that jesus knows how we would treat him, jesus himself, by how you treat the poor streetman. you wouldnt build jesus a house if he needed you to?

[Lvanett]

The only thing I'd check up on someone before I'd let them work with children is if they have been charged with child molesting in the past, that was under one of my points because in one church I was in some guy that was wanted wormed his way into the children's program and was trying to be a "father replacement" for the children of single mothers. :eek:


Well that's definitely something you should check for. That's not the same as saying "the bible says you must submit to your leaders." You are doing that (background criminal check) for the good of the flock. Overall background checks can be a bad thing, but criminal checks are safe - and in some cases necessary. I have a sister in Christ who left a church because a Sunday School teacher molested her in her own apartment. She used to store things for the church (at their request) and he would come to get them, then try to put the moves on her. When she told the Pastor about what happened, he didn't do anything EXCEPT the wrong thing....he made that same man in charge of Women's Ministries. Boy is that the wrong thing to do!

Oh and in case anyone wants to know why I say other background checks are unsafe, it's because it's been my experience that many churches, after doing these "background checks" (ex. calling your former pastor) can be detrimental, especially if that person has just left an abusive church. Every time , the leadership of the church doing the checking jumps to conclusions OR defends the former pastor and chooses to believe what they say about me. Especially if that church thinks I'm "rebellious" or "need counseling" because I don't "submit to Authority." (I think it's because they're "friends" with them.... I don't know. :( But I feel like sarcastically telling them, "thanks for listening to me and believing me. You do wonders for my self-esteem." Of course I don't say that but I want to!!)

[mary]

Well that's definitely something you should check for. That's not the same as saying "the bible says you must submit to your leaders." You are doing that (background criminal check) for the good of the flock. Overall background checks can be a bad thing, but criminal checks are safe - and in some cases necessary. I have a sister in Christ who left a church because a Sunday School teacher molested her in her own apartment. She used to store things for the church (at their request) and he would come to get them, then try to put the moves on her. When she told the Pastor about what happened, he didn't do anything EXCEPT the wrong thing....he made that same man in charge of Women's Ministries. Boy is that the wrong thing to do!

Oh and in case anyone wants to know why I say other background checks are unsafe, it's because it's been my experience that many churches, after doing these "background checks" (ex. calling your former pastor) can be detrimental, especially if that person has just left an abusive church. Every time , the leadership of the church doing the checking jumps to conclusions OR defends the former pastor and chooses to believe what they say about me. Especially if that church thinks I'm "rebellious" or "need counseling" because I don't "submit to Authority." (I think it's because they're "friends" with them.... I don't know. :( But I feel like sarcastically telling them, "thanks for listening to me and believing me. You do wonders for my self-esteem." Of course I don't say that but I want to!!)

Interesting points, Lvanett. :) Thanks for them!!!

In my state, before one can work at VBS or anything else church-related that involves children, one has to submit to a "Ministry to Minors" background check by the state police. It's a state law. This has nothing to do with churches; they can be found in violation by law enforcement if they allow someone to volunteer who hasn't gone through this process. In my case, when I wanted to teach in VBS, I had to submit three character references; a state police investigator checked them and me out and signed a form for the church that I was okay to work with minors... :o :cool:

On the other hand, recently, when I wanted to receive communion in another church, shortly after "pastor" had thrown me out essentially for refusing his advances (y'all know my story), the pastor of that church asked me whether I was a member in good standing of the **** Church. I said (honestly) no, I was not. Pastor asked why; I told him because my own "pastor" had thrown me out. The pastor of this second church asked why I had been thrown out and suggested that possibly, he should not allow me to receive communion at his church. He said, "You'll have to give me some details as to why you were thrown out." So I did. I was allowed then to receive communion at that second church because I had not been thrown out of the first church according to Matthew 18. I was also told never to bring up the first situation again, that it consisted of "concentrating on myself" and not on the Lord. Okay. :(

Bottom line: I get thrown out of a church after having had my character attested to by the state police, but this half-wit who takes big money from elderly people for his toys and wants to take other people's wives gets to keep his pulpit and remain unblemished by even the hint of scandal. What's that smell???? :eek:

On another topic: anyone want a laugh? Go to www.gardenofrenown.blogspot.com and check out the "King of the Hill...Church" link. [Caution: may be some triggers there... Were for me but I was able to laugh anyway. So was my husband, and he has just a very rudimentary sense of humor. ;) ] Keep in mind that these people are Scots and so this whole "megachurch" thing is not as real to them as it is to us. I did put a comment on the site re: this video being too sickeningly close to reality.

My husband and I are going to Myrtle Beach tomorrow for a long weekend for our wedding anniversary... We need a trip... :) See ya! :)

mary

[SpinningHead]

I wouldn't stay at a church that puts mucho emphasis on tithing/donations....if you want God's blessing, you must buy them w/ your tithes! ...we need a blank expressioned face smiley... :-|

My former visitation pastor (and still friend) always taught on tithing as a form of worship/recognition...with a statement that God doesn't "need" our money as much as it's our way to acknowledge our blessings. He also talked about an open GL policy that every church should have regarding those tithes...otherwise, feel free to be suspicious.

My red flags started to catch some breezes when our pastor and assoc. pastor started preaching a lot on tithing. Pastor even had folks on stage talk about getting laid off, financial hard times but they continued to tithe and not only made more than enough to live on but put $$ in the savings...my favorite part was it was a miracle b/c they didn't know where the $$ came from every month b/c on paper, they didn't make that much. :confused:

Our assoc. pastor preached that when Isreal was building the temple, people gave so much $$ that they were turned away w/ their gifts! (Of course we were building our over-budget worship center at the time...and there it sits vacant & only a quarter built on the hill to this day! - this day being 2 years.)

Anyway, I wouldn't stay at a church that overly preached on tithing/donations and buying God's blessings.

[Carmen]

Interesting points, Lvanett. :) Thanks for them!!!

On the other hand, recently, when I wanted to receive communion in another church, shortly after "pastor" had thrown me out essentially for refusing his advances (y'all know my story), the pastor of that church asked me whether I was a member in good standing of the **** Church. I said (honestly) no, I was not. Pastor asked why; I told him because my own "pastor" had thrown me out. The pastor of this second church asked why I had been thrown out and suggested that possibly, he should not allow me to receive communion at his church. He said, "You'll have to give me some details as to why you were thrown out." So I did. I was allowed then to receive communion at that second church because I had not been thrown out of the first church according to Matthew 18. I was also told never to bring up the first situation again, that it consisted of "concentrating on myself" and not on the Lord. Okay. :(

Bottom line: I get thrown out of a church after having had my character attested to by the state police, but this half-wit who takes big money from elderly people for his toys and wants to take other people's wives gets to keep his pulpit and remain unblemished by even the hint of scandal. What's that smell???? :eek:
I agree with you Mary and Lvanett. Calling up former pastors, especially without the knowledge of the member seeking to join or merely attend, is low. Some churches say it is biblical to have references from another church, although I think this is legalistic hairsplitting. The references can be unfair on top of that.

I don't see why one can't talk about what has happened, especially when no one within the church does anything about it. Some here are shocked when I mention the words Spiritual Abuse, others just try to turn away or change the subject, when all I am doing is looking for help and an understanding ear. It is ironic that those that are generally least understanding are pastors, the very ones that could be in a position to help others that have such problems. I think that the only way I can find someone that will physically listen to what I have to say (and hopefully understand) is to pay a psych. My parents do have a great measure of understanding, but don't understand why the abuse still bothers me though it happened a year and a half ago. Hubby still doesn't have any sympathy for me and has even told me that he has lost respect for me for being so stupid to get mixed up with such a nutty group. He already thought the church "smelled" even though he knew nothing about it and warned me before I even went the first time. He even tried to keep me from going, but I insisted on it. I don't know how he knew. By his own definition he is not a believer, so the Holy Spirit couldn't have told him, could he? But his losing respect for me is really trying on the relationship, I don't know what I can do to get it back. I have told him that we should seriously consider being counselled together. Even though I have gained some insights by what happened to me, and can even praise God for it, I curse the time I went to that church and wish I had listened to Hubby.