Hornblower on the "early church"---Good post!

[Theodora]

Good morning, all!

I just read Hornblower's response on the "Taking a break from church" thread and am taking the liberty of re-posting that here as well, since the original thread is getting rather long.

Her post:


03-06-2006, 09:25 AM
hornblower

Re: Taking a break from church

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3722

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone ever stop to think whatever happened to the way it was? I since this last church abuse situation have given this my all and its enlightening to me. For instance in the bible Steven was a biggy and there was a lot of prayer going on for his position to be filled. What position?????????? Serving and waiting on tables.
Man have things changed or what?
For one thing church used to be in a persons house. There wasnt a building committee sucking people dry to build more buildings. People were in the business of helping each other not being taught all of the time. Im not completely sure about this but it sounds like to me that most of church was done by the congregation itself. I dont think there was a pulpit. Everybody came toget her and one had a song one had a teaching one had a ........you read it. Where did that go?
So anyway ewhen I see that more than one christian is gathered in one place and this type of things starts happening a kind of fellowship where we are all fed and helped to believe and know that we are loved by Jesus, encouraged to go on, for me that is church. Period.
Church the way it is in these buildings is really a business of entertainment. I dont think Jesus died for us to be entertained.
The pastors that I have talked too privately are pretty unhappy with their jobs and they know its not the way it should be, they just dont know what else to do to feed their family.
Its all pretty sad.
I dont hate them they are just people making the same mistakes as we do. I really see a lot of the problems I go through because I at one time thought they were something more than I am.
I GAVE them power when I thought I had to believe in them.
Basically I think we are looking for an easy way out. We give them this power over us that isnt theirs to begin with, God alone should have that power and then we let them do their own weak thing.
The problem is with me.
I dont want to be alone. I dont want to make desicions for myself. I dont want to seek God all of the time. Its going against my nature.......haha. Not really funny but Im laughing anyway.
__________________
and the greatest of these is LOVE:

+ + +

VERY interesting, (((Hornblower)))!!! Know that I'll be thinking about this, including your concluding thought re giving people power because we don't want to be alone and/or to make decisions for ourselves. I think you've got some really good insights here.

Hope you have a good day today. I'll try to get back to this "later" as well.

Love and prayers--

Theodora

[Doug64]

Yes, a good post.

A lot of what was said resonates with me.

Home churches would be quite a bit different. I can imagine that everyone would have something to do based on their talents. Pooling food and other items included.

I definitely think 'church' is a business. First they have to have money just to carry on the church's business. Then they need more for that plus a generous amount to pay salaries. Many pastors are not rich but most of them make more (often a free home and other perks) than many of the rest of us.

I read yesterday that the shift seems to be toward cyber-churches. One group feels that eventually providing a church service over the internet may take the place of many brick-and -mortar churches which are steadily losing members for one reason or the other. Hmm. That might not be all bad.

Doug

[Pinkie Pie]

Thanks for reposting this. I had missed this thread. It is a very refreshing way of looking at it. What's ironic is that my current church IS basically about teaching, and helping others. There isn't a lot of "fluff" and I have been growing tremendously in its "simplicity" and love.

But lately I had been seeing "mega" churches on TV, and started wondering if my church is missing something since it has a "small" congregation, about 250, and doesn't have a lot of "programs" going on.

No, I guess we aren't missing something. I think it is the other way around.

Thanks for the eye opener, for me, anyway.

[SpinningHead]

Thank you Theodora, the original post was overwhelming to me so I'll start comment on this one.

I'm all over the place in my head on this one...so I'll just put out some random thoughts out there...

High Membership #'s does not equate that a church is spiritually thriving (nor does the number of programs a church has). It just proves its social scene.

I am very untrusting of established/organized churches with the bells and whistles and program after program after program and the pressure to "get involved"...

I am very untrusting of home established/organized churches as well...with the intense call to study, to pray, to committ, to devote...too cultish, too personal, too in my business, in their business.

The church of the Bible has history (or so I've read) that it didn't just let anyone in...they had to be mentored, tested, etc. Which made sense at the time as the church was being persecuted...one wasn't going to just show anybody the way to the catacombs. I wouldn't trust anything similar today...having to show another person my devotion for their judgement.

I will never trust again a church that has a building program. Or a missions program. or a ministry that requires more than tithing can provide a church. IF the regular tithing doesn't cover it, then they need a new accountant! I visited a church who did exactly that regarding tithing...ALL operational expenses + ministry supports came from and only from the church's tithing. Impressive. AND all their #'s were made known and discussed/voted once a month as a seperate member's meeting. Very impressive.

I'll leave it at that for now...

[Theodora]

I appreciate your taking the time to add further considerations to these issues!

I've just picked up on further comments by Hornblower, and now, Carmen, on yet another thread which relate here as well....so...since I'm getting rather confused by all of this...again...I'll re-post on this separate thread...and hope that's OK!!!

--

Other thoughts relating to the comparison of the "early church" to our contemporary experience of "church"---

03-03-2006, 10:56 AM
hornblower

Re: Hoping to hear from ex-Calvary Chapel

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3666

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its almost like these churches see the gospel as being limited to them and them alone. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The church as the bible reads is universal so how can that be? To me that is a cult. Or anyway its cult like behavior. Ive been in one good church, it was small very small, didnt grow much which I dont know if thats good or not but again most people just didnt 'get it'. It was like a family, a disfunctional family with people not getting along. The difference was the leadership was ok with that and in fact sort of embrased it. They ministered to these people including me. All kinds of people were there. Rich poor strong weak disabled loud quiet old young in between. The pastor and hiw wife had problems with their children with each other and they talked about those problems openly and readily admitted that they were not in any way perfect but they were there for you and if they werent they apologised. A lot of people came and tried to change it, tried to make it grow. Im telling you that was and will always be the most healthy church I have ever been in. Still though its gone now, the way it was that is, something else is happening now in that same building. May still be good I dont know but anyway it broke up and it was bad the whole thing. I was helpless to bring people together during the breakup.
Maybe this is the way its always going to be I dont know.
All I know is that Jesus is the only ONE I submit too. 'Cause He died for me, these other numb skulls didnt and dont die except in their own minds, so there you go. Im not following them down their loused up roads.
__________________
and the greatest of these is LOVE:

==

03-07-2006, 05:16 AM
Carmen

Re: Hoping to hear from ex-Calvary Chapel

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3666

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't usually like to compare business with church, but the CEO reference is irresistible (won't touch the money issue here). Even CEO's can get hired or fired by the main stockholders and company boards.

Actually it is scriptural that the local community choose its leaders - those that serve the most and that have a good character. Paul let each community decide for itself, he didn't appoint leaders for each one, he just provided guidelines for the choice. Logically, anyone that is proven to have bad character or for some reason cannot fulfill his duties well, should not be in a position of leadership and can be fired, like a CEO. What Calvary C. is doing is not based on good judgement much less scripture and may fail despite all good intentions of the founder.

It is sad that one must "believe" in psychotherapy or not. Some cannot separate faith from reality where there are differences. That is already a bad sign that delusion is at work. Those who cannot separate the spiritual from the physical are not mentally healthy in my opinion, they cannot have a rational outlook on reality. It is like the mentality in the middle ages that could not accept the solar system with the sun in its middle rather than the earth. The religious leaders didn't want to hear that the earth was round because that didn't fit into their faith. Their mixture of superstion and faith could not stand up to the truth. I don't have faith in my car, but it is very useful nonetheless. Psychotherapy is one of those types of things for me, not necessarily Christian, but useful. There is a mentality like that of the middle ages that is gaining ground today, a tendency to blur the borders between the seen and the unseen, faith and science, superstition and science. It may be that the Calvary Cs already have taken hold of it.
__________________

Do not be satisfied with an illusion, however beautiful it may be. Always search for the truth. The truth is not always pretty. Do not take anyone at his word, check it out for yourself.

"My comfort in my suffering is this: Your promise renews my life." Psalm 119:50.


(End of posts)

As always..."more as able!"

Thanks again for your thoughts here---ALL of you!!

Theodora


Good morning, all!

I just read Hornblower's response on the "Taking a break from church" thread and am taking the liberty of re-posting that here as well, since the original thread is getting rather long. (snip) -- the post mentioned in this thread.)


Theodora