made some progress

[Carmen]

I just went to an evening of a Catholic lecture series about the meaning and practical implementation of Vatican II, that wasn't the progress, though. The first lecture was closeby in the next town last week, the second was last night in the same town where I was SA'd. Since the Catholic church it was at is not far from the store front where the pasturd meets with his congregation, I wasn't sure whether he'd show up or not, at least to keep an eye on what the Catholics are up to - which is what I was doing.

It was spooky just taking that road, I was never out that way except to go to that church, and have avoided it since, I make sure that I don't shop anywhere in the vicinity for fear of meeting that pastor, I go to the same chain-stores, but elsewhere. I only glanced at the row of stores as I drove by, wasn't going to stop there for anything. I wasn't sure what I'd do if he showed up. I am glad he didn't show up, though. His denomination, if one can call it that, doesn't practice ecumenism so he'd have been there for other reasons if at all. I had to look behind me every once in a while to make sure he hadn't come late. But I was there and was going to stay until the end of the lecture, no matter what. He wouldn't have been able to be open in that setting without blowing his cover, the lecturer let out such a comment against Lutheranism that they'd have thrown the pasturd out with tar and feathers if they knew his identity - his denomination leans heavily on what Luther built. I lean on it too somewhat, but have not let anyone know yet. I was able to gather some interesting information. Some things that I had been suspecting have finally been said, will blog about it sometime, it would offend some here. The last lecture is next week and is in a different town, thank goodness.

Have talked to the local priest about an "ecumenical" bible-study, he seems positive although he doesn't seem enthusiastic about it. I think he wants to make sure it doesn't get out of control. You can't control Jesus though, heh, heh. I just love that Narnian phrase: "It is not as though he were a tame lion." The Lutheran pastor that is helping me advised me to have the group with the permission of the Catholic church than without it, or we would be seen as a cult...but it will just be doctrinally neutral rather than ecumenical. The Catholics can have nothing against the gospel since they profess to believe it. In a sense I am misusing the word "ecumenical", but based on one popular though faulty definition of it. Unity is a popular definition though assimilation is more exact. Assimilation goes both ways though, once the Holy Spirit has you Jesus won't let your soul go, thank goodness. I'm counting on Him. He caught me by surprise and I'm glad of it. The real Church is made of living stones, not controlling institutions.

Am making progress on more than one front.

[Theodora]

Congrats on pushing through some areas of discomfort and for finding some new possibilities in your life. I absolutely loved this observation:

" I think he wants to make sure it doesn't get out of control. You can't control Jesus though, heh, heh. I just love that Narnian phrase: 'It is not as though he were a tame lion.' "

Keep the faith...and keep up the good work! Will be waiting to hear the next "chapter" of this saga!!! ;) :D

(((Carmen)))


Love and prayers--

Theodora

--

I just went to an evening of a Catholic lecture series about the meaning and practical implementation of Vatican II, that wasn't the progress, though. The first lecture was closeby in the next town last week, the second was last night in the same town where I was SA'd. Since the Catholic church it was at is not far from the store front where the pasturd meets with his congregation, I wasn't sure whether he'd show up or not, at least to keep an eye on what the Catholics are up to - which is what I was doing.

It was spooky just taking that road, I was never out that way except to go to that church, and have avoided it since, I make sure that I don't shop anywhere in the vicinity for fear of meeting that pastor, I go to the same chain-stores, but elsewhere. I only glanced at the row of stores as I drove by, wasn't going to stop there for anything. I wasn't sure what I'd do if he showed up. I am glad he didn't show up, though. His denomination, if one can call it that, doesn't practice ecumenism so he'd have been there for other reasons if at all. I had to look behind me every once in a while to make sure he hadn't come late. But I was there and was going to stay until the end of the lecture, no matter what. He wouldn't have been able to be open in that setting without blowing his cover, the lecturer let out such a comment against Lutheranism that they'd have thrown the pasturd out with tar and feathers if they knew his identity - his denomination leans heavily on what Luther built. I lean on it too somewhat, but have not let anyone know yet. I was able to gather some interesting information. Some things that I had been suspecting have finally been said, will blog about it sometime, it would offend some here. The last lecture is next week and is in a different town, thank goodness.

Have talked to the local priest about an "ecumenical" bible-study, he seems positive although he doesn't seem enthusiastic about it. I think he wants to make sure it doesn't get out of control. You can't control Jesus though, heh, heh. I just love that Narnian phrase: "It is not as though he were a tame lion." The Lutheran pastor that is helping me advised me to have the group with the permission of the Catholic church than without it, or we would be seen as a cult...but it will just be doctrinally neutral rather than ecumenical. The Catholics can have nothing against the gospel since they profess to believe it. In a sense I am misusing the word "ecumenical", but based on one popular though faulty definition of it. Unity is a popular definition though assimilation is more exact. Assimilation goes both ways though, once the Holy Spirit has you Jesus won't let your soul go, thank goodness. I'm counting on Him. He caught me by surprise and I'm glad of it. The real Church is made of living stones, not controlling institutions.

Am making progress on more than one front.

[jordie]

Dear Carmen,

Fully understand your emotions regarding being in the scary neighbourhood....I am glad also that you are progressing in that area.....

I am afraid I don't know much about your story.....will look you up on past threads ..but it sounds like you are living a bit of a double life at the moment with certain things you haven't told others etc......have had some experience with what you are going through myself although it would take too long to note here....

I would be interested to hear more of your story as it unfolds......

Hang in there and keep pushing through those difficulties..

love,
Jordie

[Carmen]

Jordie, I started writing and couldn't stop, I'll save you the trouble of looking around, also want to be truthful and not sound two-faced. Response is long, in two posts, sorry about the length.

Part 1

Thanks. At least getting into that "dark and scary" area was a start. I had to pat myself on the back for it a bit since I don't get that kind of approval from any other quarter. Unfortunately I do have to live a double life. Hubby is still Catholic and somewhat active with his deeds if not his faith - as he freely admits. I found a local group from a movement I was involved with before we moved and joined it here for the purpose of socializing (knowing that born-agains would be scarce in this church). I have been born-again for years, but being married to someone that is not has tied my tongue for most of that time. I learned to hide my beliefs.

Only about a year after joining the new group I realized that the movement is cult-like, especially the deeper in one goes, my eyes were opened to that kind of thing. Until then I had been influenced by diverse doctrines, Word-of-Faith, Spiritual Warfare, etc. I stumbled onto a discernment site by accident that questioned my beliefs, even offended me. Instead of just going somewhere else I kept reading, I wanted to know if my beliefs were off. I applied that new questioning kind of thought to the movement I attended and saw the cult-like tendencies immediately. Now I study the movement I'm still loosely a part of. I also studied more about the church it belongs to and did not like what I found. Going there continually knowing what I know and looking at the whole liturgy and ritual in its entirety has rather disgusted me.

I still go sometimes because of Hubby, but need an alternative where I can be together with those that are born-again like myself. The only other option nearby is Pentecostal, which is not acceptable to me either, have been there and done that years ago, it is what I am trying to get away from among other things. A non-denominational situation would give me the chance to meet with Christian friends, even Pentecostal ones, in a neutral environment where we can analyze what we believe using the bible and learn how to let unnecessary doctrines that only hinder us from living as Christians go. This is not for "church unification" as it is often positively presented, but for true unity in the Holy Spirit - each being born-again in the same Spirit. If anyone gets born-again it isn't my fault as that is the work of the Holy Spirit. All I do is tell the gospel, as Jesus said to. I hope that a Christian community can be formed, a group where each cares for and respects the other and strives to just know God better and serve Him better, thus being someone who is able to serve others. The Catholics would benefit from this too.

A little over a year ago I went to a Protestant, non-Pentecostal church, not to be too precise about it. My Pentecostal friends had sent me to that church, saying my beliefs were more like theirs. At the same time my parents sent me an email containing the address of that church that they had found on the internet for me, they had just discovered one of the same type that they were crazy about.
I thought, this is providence, go take a look. The pastor seemed welcoming. He spoke my language well and encouraged me to use it. I spoke with him one-on-one to find out more about their doctrine. I was too open about my beliefs, possibly partly because I finally thought I had found someone that I could be open with after all of these years of keeping silent. I was wrong. Openly he seemed to agree with me, I thought that I was being accepted as a Christian and as one that would share their doctrine to a great extent. But when it came to communion time it was refused me - by name - at the last second and intentionally. The intention to refuse me was there all of the time, the pastor explicitly invited me to that service without informing me what would happen ahead of time. I couldn't help but cry. A few tried to comfort me, but no one saw the situation as wrong, least of all the pastor.

After I got home I wrote a long letter, admittedly an overreaction but honest, and emailed it to the pastor. A correspondence started that led to my being told to stay away from that church and to my simultaneous decision to avoid it and that pastor at all costs. Never have I been so humiliated despite many experiences as a minority in my own country and as a foreigner abroad. In all those years of spiritual deception before, in and out of churches and movements, never was the deception personal, at least not to me. Despite having an alcoholic parent (now dry) never was I so abused. My two Pentecostal friends helped me despite our doctrinal differences, they are born-again, they know what connects us as Christians. That pastor did not. I can't attend my friend's church either, I feel irritated there like when having to listen to someone screeching fingernails on a blackboard, way down deep. We already meet between ourselves, I hope to create an environment where others can come as well and not feel hampered by one doctrine or another whether it be Pentecostal or Catholic or what that pastor believed. An alternative to all three is needed.

[Carmen]

Part 2

Being abroad for some time I have always had to find alternatives for products I couldn't get, sometimes having to make them, being creative. In this case it isn't something I want, but something I need. I saw the Christian community my parents are a part of last summer, even though it is the same group of the pastor that SA'd me, it is a world apart. They have the real McCoy, are walking in the Spirit, I have not seen such a good example of Christian community like that before. They truly respect and care for each other, their love of Scripture, the truth, wisdom and knowing God is the engine that drives their behavior, their concern for others was genuine and not acted out. The pastor has a second job and doesn't expect to be fully supported by the others, he was not authoritative or manipulative, he was humble and encouraging, he listened to my story and sympathized with me, he was the best servant. I was with them long enough to know that what I was seeing was the real thing. Continuing reports from my parents only underline what I saw - and felt. I don't just want what they have, I need it - it is what I have been looking for, for years. It is time for something like that here (I have had the idea of at least a bible study for over two years but no drive, reason or possibility to implement it) and I hope my friends and I can be the beginning of something. I won't call it revival - I hate that word, have been too misled by it. It will just be practical Christianity and the fruits that come from it. No more and no less.

I may have to call the group "ecumenical" otherwise we may be labeled as a cult. The true meaning of the word is to get Protestants back into the "One True Church" - the Catholic one. I know that my misuse of the word is a deception of sorts, but can see no other way to get the group started without being labeled as a cult. If the group just appears out of nowhere without consent from the local parish that is what will happen. Why do you think that Protestants are like a needle in a haystack here - especially born-again ones? I know that the label "ecumenical" will not sit well with those that are opposed to it - like the pastor that SA'd me, like I am opposed to its meaning. At the Cath. lecture I went to, the lecturer spoke so negatively of the results of Luther's teaching on the Catholic church, that the Catholic Church wants everything to be as it was before Luther stirred it up. They want themselves as the only acceptable representation of the Church, with all tradition intact. Political motives were also mentioned. "Dialogue" doesn't mean compromise, it means conquor from their standpoint, just that they use words rather than swords. Vatican II was just a change of methods, not intent. I'm just telling you what I heard - this is not merely my interpretation of the lecture. Very strong words were used to describe the apostasy of Luther and the secularization of France. This is the Catholic year of "mission" or "evangelization" and the whole church is being readied and mobilized to do that - albeit in a friendly, peace-emphasizing, brotherhood, peer-pressure sort of way. Catechism and church activities have been intensified, it is uncanny, and I can hardly stand it there anymore. Hubby is at least practical, he doesn't like what is going on either and even though he sings in the choir out of fun, he only attends when they sing, which isn't all the time, or when he feels like going. He said he'd be willing to attend the group if it is doctrinally neutral, but doesn't get along with my Pentecostal friends, they end up trying to mission him. I keep telling them that it is not necessary, they have to prove themselves as "nice" and "acceptable" people before he'll listen. He won't listen to me because of some macho thing (and because I was so misled and nutty before - hope I'm not now), but I hope he'll listen to someone else someday.

I'm not going to forward any doctrine per se, but the gospel in all its aspects, pure and simple. If that is what the disciples did at the beginning, that which Luther re-discovered which caused him to be born-again, then so be it. I have told the truth here, but need to hide it in RL a little longer. When some start getting born-again then the cat will probably be out of the bag, but that is up to the Holy Spirit, not myself. I have told the gospel to a number of people, but no one has listened in the five years I have been here, they usually just nod and say, "How nice!" I think that a non-aggresive gospel tone is a virtue, especially in hostile environments. My friend did some aggressive witnessing after he was born again, that may have been a mistake. He is definitely brandmarked, no one has heard him since his conversion and he just has made himself a lot of enemies. The gospel I tell is the same one, but a non-threatening presentation won't aggravate those that don't want to listen. The problem isn't with those that really understand the gospel, but with those that don't. If they don't feel like they are under pressure or threatened in any way, then they have less reason to object if others do understand and respond accordingly. This will buy us time. At least I hope that is how it will be. There is no need to convert anyone. In my opinion, the Christian simply presents the gospel, backed by a lifestyle that testifies to it, the Holy Spirit does the converting, if one wants to call it that.

Whew!

[Doug64]

Well, Carmen, it seems to me that starting a Bible Study with a few friends is a good idea. If it should grow by word of mouth, that would be great.

My wife and I have talked of doing something similar, but haven't taken any steps in that direction so far, primarily because it would tie us down to being someplace every week.
Lazy in our old age, I guess, but after 40 years of being in church every weekend, we may be burned out a bit.

Doug :)

[jordie]

Carmen,

What a story!!!!!!!!!

you sound like you are hanging tough though. Not just a stranger in a strange land geographically, but spiritually..

You are like one of those resistance fighters during the war.......keeping it underground while you deal with those things which are closest to your heart.

I am excited for you too though in a strange way, I sense that you are growing spiritually in a way you might never have done if you weren't in the place you are now. That may be cold comfort to you though.

Its hard when you know how things can be, yet you look all around you at the never changing traditional church and see the abuse and conflict, but continual digging in the same hole that has gone on for centures. I am so sorry you were abused in such a humiliating way. I hope that you will go on in your faith as it seems to be so strong and sure.

Thankyou for sharing your story I really appreciate hearing what you have been through. I am so impressed with how you are fighting the good fight though.

I am glad you can share your feelings here on this board and know that people are praying for you here and back home as well.

I will be interested to hear how you progress..

love,
Jordie

[Carmen]

Thanks Jordie,

It seems to me that God uses the situations that we get into to our advantage. I believe in sovereignty, that means that he even would send me into these situations, not wanting to hurt me, but to see me grow. I understand that a lot of people don't believe that, but that God uses situations to our advantage is clear. I usually don't hold that in front of others, just myself, as it is cold comfort. Knowing that doesn't soothe fresh wounds, but helps later when the worst is past.

It is not that I want to be where I am, or that I want to lead a group (I'm not the leader type), but that I have certain needs. If they are not met then a suitable environment must be created where they can be met. I wish Protestants wouldn't be seen as enemies here, they are not even tolerated unless they practice "ecumenism" which born-agains seldom do and born-again reformed even less. I'd rather someone else get the group going, but no one is doing anything in this direction so I have to. It has been on my heart for quite some time, but I was afraid of what others might think, was ashamed of my lack of prowess with the Italian language (still have a long way to go), don't have biblical training though I have studied a lot, was hesitant because I am a woman, was never popular, like my books (and computer) more than real live people sometimes. I force myself to go out to seminars and things even though they interest me. Being in the type of group I describe would be the only kind really acceptable to me, the only thing that would make it really worthwhile being with others. It is a good thing I have kids that need to go out regularly, otherwise I would tend to stay at home. Once I am out, then I'm not too shy to start conversations with whoever is at the park or help where I can. The SA was like a kick in the behind, but it got me motivated to do something.

Thank you for the sympathy and prayer.

[Traveller]

Carmen, wow! I am impressed ... seriously.

You say you're not the leader type, but I wouldn't be surprised if God thinks otherwise. It makes sense to have to go through all the hurt, so God can use the healing to touch and transform others. Kinda like Saul and David, with David becoming a king in true humility. Another bit of cold comfort perhaps ...

Keep us up to date here on any new developments if you can!