What would you think?

[apike]

Hi, I found this forum last week and found wisdom and truth here. I know God let me find it because it's time to.

This is pretty long.

I have been an active member of my church for 15 years. Have served happily in Worship, Choir and Sunday School for most of those years. Two years ago I lost my job and the church hired me as full time staff. Pastor created a position I hoped not for me but because the church needed it. The timing was right though that I had no job, they wanted me to begin a ministry and they had the money to do it. And it was in ministry I had been doing all along. So they were happy with it right? However I realized it was a risk and that if they couldn't afford it I would be out of a job. Since I am supporting myself and not financially secure it was a risk.

I thought all was going well and in the fall I was to take my vacation. About a month before I left though, things I had been doing were being taken from me and changed without my input. ONe project I started I could never get feedback on.

Staff meetings were not held anymore and I was not informed they were being cancelled. Something shifted that made me feel uneasy and fearful at the time.

While on vacation I got a phone call from the Pastor that the board had recommended not funding the position because giving was down and they were cutting back. :mad: They would be voting on it two days after I got home and he didn't want me to be blindsided when I got home. They would give me two months severance but come Jan. no job. And the budget for the year was prepared on the day I left for my vacation. He was so apologetic and nobody was happy to have to make the decision.

I felt like the Pastor and board and church dumped me.
And thats how I have been reacting internally.
Since its my church family and they voted for the board recommendation it feels like huge rejection. My response has been to want to back off and not want to be involved at all. However I decided that I would be involved in the things easiest for me to do.

One thing I have learned here is that you can serve a church without serving the Lord.

The Pastor I have come to see is really manipulative and controlling.

He is a warm outgoing people person who has a manner that draws people in. I believe and trusted what he told me about myself but I think it was to get me to do what he wanted. I believes he loves the Lord but I think he has another agenda and it is hard to tell the difference.

It bothered him when I didn't agree with him, when I showed any feelings that were "negative".

I expressed a problem I had dealing with an individual and he told me that within five years he expected me to be comfortable with everyone.

He tried to tell me what attitude i needed to have to be in ministry.
He was not happy that I was working a recovery program or was in counselling. And that I was open about it with church members. I think he wanted me to be confiding in him. It was like he trying to make me into someone else. He knew some of my issues and I was honest about where I was but it felt less and less safe to be honest with him.

People would talk to me about things and I got the feeling he did not like that either.

I got mixed messages from him all the time. I had this freedom according to him, to use my own initiative and be proactive but when I did (prayerfully and not impulsively) it had to be the way he would have done it. He also wanted the congregation to be involved and take initiative but when they did he reigned them in also. I mentioned this to him and he said well of course he reigned them in.

Another thing was he was always wanting me to need something from him. Like it really made him happy when I came to him needing something.

Well this is long enough. I feel at peace a bit after writing this. I'd welcome any input. Bless you if you made to the end.

[jordie]

Hi Andrea, welcome to the board,

sounds to me like this is one pastor you can live without.....

Another thing was he was always wanting me to need something from him. Like it really made him happy when I came to him needing something.

This I don't like. Any male pastor who shows that kind of interaction with women has a problem, and I would suggest this is just the beginning of his problems. You have shared a great deal about your situation, and I am just honing in on one area, but I am sure you gut is telling you the rest.

You will find like a lot of us here, that mostly when you get to the point you are at, you know what the problems are, you just need to be validated, and have the freedom to talk about the abuse. This is what the forum does for us.....we encourage each other and help in the low times and cheer when things begin to look up.

I hate it when churches abuse their staff. I was a member of staff once when I was about 20 in a big pentecostal church. They told me initially (again...a job specially created) I was going to be the 2IC's secretary........then on the day I got there they relegated me to the front desk and shoved an antiquated phone system at me.....what about the secretary job I said.......given to someone else they said to me.......right.......

Some months later they haul me in to the administrators office and tell me they are not happy with my attitude. They fluffed around for a while telling me all these things they were vaguely unhappy with, peering at me sternly all the time, while I am sitting there dumbfounded, trying not to cry....remember I am 20....

Then I discover the real reason I am being reprimanded.....someone had rung the church office to talk to a counsellor and couldn't get through.....they threatened to leave the church .(apparently very wealthy parishoner)....the administrator then tells me it was all my fault.....never mind the fact that the phone system doesn't work properly and continually drops calls out (a fact they were aware of)...or the fact that I don't even remember taking the call (I was in fact out to lunch - literally- when they say the calll came through).....it was my fault and I had to pull my socks up or they would be very unhappy.........I go back to my desk in shock still trying to work out what just happened.

Epilogue to this.......some months later pastor and administrator found with their hands in the till.....along with tax fraud......church loses half its staff and congregation......I leave church and realise it wasn't me after all......

sorry for the ramble.....keep sharing we are happy you are here.....

[Jerry]

I had this freedom according to him,
Dear Andrea,,,
Lets take a look at this "freedom" ;)

You have the "freedom" to allow him to dictate your attitude.
You have the "freedom" to confide in him only.
You have the "freedom" to depend on his influance for your living.
You have the "freedom" to accept his opinion without question.

This is your "freedom" :( ,,,,,,,,,...............Two years ago you lost your job and were terrified.This wonderful godly man rallied the Church you love to your aid.God was doing a "Great Work" in your life.Things were not "easy" but they were manageable and you could be happy...............And now things would get even better the "Counceling" is working,,,,,your beginning to "Bloom",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and there in lies your "sin",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,You strayed outside Pastors sphere of influance,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and what "Pastor" giveth "Pasturd" taketh away :( ..........What do I think ?????,,,,,,,,,I think this guy is really smooth :mad:
Love Jerry
P.S. Welcome to the "Light"

[Carmen]

Hi Apike,

I does sound like the pastor is manipulative, praise hungry.... It is nice that the church gave you a job and I wouldn't hold it against the church for removing it, but since they knew you were dependent on it, they might have been able to support you until you could find another job. Churches ain't companies and shouldn't behave like them in my opinion.

I wouldn't see it as leaving the church, but as leaving the pastor. Maintaining healthy relationships with members might still be doable.

Carmen

[Voyager]

Sounds like you're dealing with a sociopath Apike. Check this out:

Profile of a Sociopath

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Does any of this sound familiar?

:cool:

[Voyager]

Apike,

Since you have been a member of this church for 15 years, you probably have come to know and love the congregation as family. I did this for 12 years in my former church. My answer was to escape the abuse when it became intolerable. In the process, my wife and I were demonized and ostracised by all of our church family. This was a traumatic, horrific experience that I would never wish on anyone.

It sounds like you are in the same catch-22 that many of us have been in before. If you stay, you feel like you are supporting the abuse. If you leave, you lose everything you have invested your entire self in for the past 15 years. There is no easy way out. If there would have been, I would have found it.

It might help your emotional stability to just gradually cut back on the number of meetings you attend and withdraw yourself from the authority of the pastor. A lot of people would probably tell you to just leave, but that is a very painful process. Even after I left and was able to expose my former pastor's abuse which ended in the church terminating the pastor, I was never reconnected with any of the church members. I couldn't trust them anymore after they ostracised my wife and I.

If you still love the people in the church and wish to remain in contact with them, it's best not to expose the abuse. You can always just say that the Lord has called you to a place of rest. Who can argue with that?

Hope this helps.

:cool:

[Voyager]

After saying all that, I must add that most people end up leaving their abusive churches because they are tormented the entire time they stay there. I have been reading this forum for over six years now and have found that the people who vent the most are those who are still in abusive churches. Once they leave they still vent (which is completely okay and is not un-Christlike), but it's different because they don't have the high frustration level that comes with continually subjecting themselves to the abusive church environment.

:cool:

[apike]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses. I am cutting back on my involvement and only doing the things that I want to do. So as to have time to concentrate on getting a new job. I have invested myself heavily in the church and it feels uncomfortable to switch my focus to my own needs so totally. But thats were I am right now, learing how to take care of myself.

Voyager I read what you wrote about a sociopath and my response in reading it was "He's not that bad" however there are elements of most of those things in my experience with him. I think when I started believing this was NOT about me at all, I could see a bit of what was going on.

Carmen, in all fairness they did give me a two months severance. And I have used it to grieve and let go. The biggest change was to stop beating up on myself for believing and trusting in an illusion spun by the Pastor.

Jerry, It is so tempting to want to allow him to be the boss and make the decisions and ignore my own value and strength. Working there triggered a lot of issues for me but I know it's because I was recognizing the behavior as familar.
That is progress. I also watched how he talked to his secretary and their relationship really felt offkey to me.

Jordie, yes thanks I did need validation. After I started getting confused about things because some things were being hidden, I decided that something was going on and God is a revealer of truth. So sooner or later it will surface. The other day he told me that we had a healthy church. He said it twice and I got the feeling he was pushing a button with me. I did not respond. It's really helpful to know someone is manipulative cause I can decide to just not enter into the dynamic. Another thing I decided to do is not try to change him or give him my input. Since January he has been very busy instigating changes. It gives the illusion that there is a lot going on in our church.

God is good. We all might be doing the best we can in our lives, but it is God who is good.

[gwen]

One thing I have learned here is that you can serve a church without serving the Lord.

Yes, this is very true! Unfortunately, these leaders will try to convince you that serving the "church" and the "leader" is serving the Lord...but I don't believe it anymore...Too many of them have their own agendas!!!


The Pastor I have come to see is really manipulative and controlling.

People would talk to me about things and I got the feeling he did not like that either.

I not only got the feeling that our former "pastor" did not like that people would talk to me about things, he came right out and told me that it was "not my place" to LET others talk to me. (I wasn't an "elder"...they were the ONLY ones besides him that people were supposed to talk to.) At one point, he had different people teaching classes on Wed. nights, and both my husband and I were teaching. One of the "elders" wives actually asked me to pray about a situation, but she also asked me not to tell anyone about what she told me. While we were still standing there, the "pastor" walked up and asked us what was going on. I looked at her pleadingly and said that she had asked me not to say anything to anyone. He took both of us back into another room privately and demanded to know what we were talking about and then he told me that that's exactly why he doesn't let others teach because then people begin to "see" them in leadership roles and start confiding in them instead of him and the elders. Right after that, he found an excuse to end the classes...said that Holy Spirit was now leading us to do something different on Wed. nights. I never saw the connection between the two events until recently. My husband was always bothered that the classes ended so abruptly, and I didn't realize why he stopped them (he was always changing things around, so I didn't think much of him ending the classes because that was his mode of operation...starting things and then stopping them just as quickly...claiming that the "Holy Spirit" is like the wind...blowing this way today and blowing that way tomorrow).


I got mixed messages from him all the time. I had this freedom according to him, to use my own initiative and be proactive but when I did (prayerfully and not impulsively) it had to be the way he would have done it. He also wanted the congregation to be involved and take initiative but when they did he reigned them in also. I mentioned this to him and he said well of course he reigned them in.


Our former "pastor" would encourage us to pray and seek the leading of the Holy Spirit, but if what we felt was the leading of the Holy Spirit was different than what he thought it should be, he would say that we "missed the Lord"!

Welcome to the "club"...I know exactly where you're coming from...I dealt with all of this from my former "pastor" too! You've got my sympathies!!!

Our family departed quickly. For me, it was the ONLY way that I could deal with the situation. I was under the "mind control" of the "pastor" and the only way to escape was to escape!!! There was no backing away with him...besides we were in "leadership roles"...on the praise and worship team, my husband was a deacon and I was the administrator and high school teacher of the church-school. So we couldn't just back off from participating in services, especially since we were on the praise and worship team. We sent a resignation letter and promptly left. (Actually, we left and then sent the resignation letter! :D ) That's another story for another time!!!

I'm glad that you found the forum! This place has been a tremendous help to me, and I hope that you find it to be also.

Take care,
Love, Gwen

[gwen]

Oh, one other thing...about being there for 15 years...

We were in our "church" for 10 years, so I know the connectedness that you feel after giving so much of your life there. I felt like these people were my "family", I was that close to them. But if you see that the "pastor" is being controlling and manipulative, you need to consider if that's really what you want to continue to be under.

I'll be praying for you...I know that you're in a very difficult situation right now. Also, I'll be praying about your job situation...I kind of gathered that you're still looking for a new job. Is that right?

Love, Gwen

[apike]

I am looking for a new job Gwen. I am trusting God. I really appreciate your prayers cause I am struggling with discouragement right now. Need to focus on getting work while getting my focus off of this experience.

Your words have been very encouraging to me.

Having been in leadership I am finding that I miss the involvement and being on the inside. Yesterday at church the nominating committee met to talk about filling the position on the board I had before I was on staff. I had no idea who they had in mind and had to keep reminding myself it was not my business anymore.

Another interesting thing was, I too had been involved in leading the youth in the praise team as part of my job. I gave it up when the job ended. Well the piano player met with the pastor and kids to regroup and told me that it was probably best I did not do it anymore since the pastor was leading and it would have been ackward for me to be there having been the leader before. Feeling Guilt for now someone else had to do it. A church full of people who want something and expect someone else to do it. If I didn't have recovery I would still be thinking I was the only person in the world who could do it.

Another thing that has come up for me has been, it feels like I have to choose either Christ or a recovery program. I know the program is a helpful tool and have seen Christ lead people to Him through the program. Personally I do not get the support I need in my church right now but do get it in program. Boy do I see it now, Its like I have felt God is only in this church and doesn't work in any other area of life. Is that kin to the thinking that if something ends there will never be anything else? Which I have feared that there will not be another job for me. Or another relationship, or if I let something go there will not be anything else. Or there is only one way to do things. Shades of my mother!!:eek:

Well thanks for listening.

[Illuminated]

Personally I do not get the support I need in my church right now but do get it in program. Boy do I see it now, Its like I have felt God is only in this church and doesn't work in any other area of life.
I am sitting here crying with you. I have just left a church because I have discoverd it is a toxic faith system. Some of the characteristics of your pastor are similiar to characteristics of my pastor, who does not 'feel led to listen to me' discuss my recent experience with an abusive missionary organization supported by our church.

It must be very hard for you to understand that no matter what you could do or say, the leadership in your church is not interested in your welfare anymore. You have been rejected by them, as our Lord Jesus was rejected by all around Him. I know that doesn't make it any easier to bear, but at least you can have an idea of how He must have felt. I know that my recent experience of rejection and abuse has made me realize how He must have suffered (much more than me, that's for sure!) but it has still devasted me and I too am in counseling.

Have you read the book Toxic Faith by Steve Arterburn? It is pretty good, although it tends to put the blame on the member rather than the church leadership, which is wrong.

The leadership in your church sounds like they have gone 'over the edge' and are morphing into a toxic faith system that is abusive, manipulative, and conniving. You are better off without them. According to some intensive counseling I have been undergoing, to help you recover, you need to TALK TALK TALK about the situation.

Love you!

[gwen]

Another thing that has come up for me has been, it feels like I have to choose either Christ or a recovery program. I know the program is a helpful tool and have seen Christ lead people to Him through the program. Personally I do not get the support I need in my church right now but do get it in program. Boy do I see it now, Its like I have felt God is only in this church and doesn't work in any other area of life. Is that kin to the thinking that if something ends there will never be anything else? Which I have feared that there will not be another job for me. Or another relationship, or if I let something go there will not be anything else. Or there is only one way to do things. Shades of my mother!!:eek:



Sounds like we have a lot in common...yes, I am keeping you in prayer about your entire situation.

Why do you feel that you have to choose either Christ or a recovery program? If the recovery program is helping you and you have seen him lead people to himself through the program, then it seems to me that he's there. Since I have left our former "church", I have taken much comfort in the scriptures such as "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30) and "A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory; And in His name Gentiles will trust." (Matt. 12:20-21)

I understand the feeling that "God is only in this church"...every one of these "churches" tries to tell us this...I felt that way about my former "church" as well!!! Isn't that pride? To think that one "church" alone has the answer? God is so much bigger than one "church"!!!

If you are a reader, there are lots of books on the subject of cults and abusive churches. For someone who is still in the "church", I would recommend Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar (yes, that's spelled correctly :D ), The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen, and/or Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences by Ken Blue. I ordered Twisted Scriptures from my local Christian bookstore and it took several weeks to come in. However, you can also get it online (and you may get it quicker that way).

After I left our former "church", I read everything that I could get my hands on! By reading and educating myself, it really helped me tremendously in my healing process. Leaving our former "church" was the hardest thing that I've ever done in my life and it's been a step by step recovery process (many times it's been two steps forward, one step back! :o ). But I can look back over the last year and a half and see how far the Lord has brought me. And I believe that He'll do the same for you! :)

God bless you, Andrea!
Love, Gwen

[Carmen]

Hi apike,

Some here have been through recovery programs and have found them to be healing. God works everywhere, even though some try to confine him to churches. And there is more than one way to do church, too. There will be other opportunities to find friends even though you may feel lonely now. We are all here for one another and being Christians in a virtual setting, something that others can't even do in RL. The love and mercy of Jesus Christ is even on the net! :)

Carmen