what does it mean to be submissive?

[nikkig]

what does it really mean to be submissive to a church? and what do you do when you feel broken inside and the past hangs over you?

[ex-shep]

Great post and it is getting late. I need to ponder that one. Short version: open to the Lord without being walked over by abusive narcistic leadership. Let me think about that one. Great thought. Bug me if I forget to respond.

[jordie]

Hi nikkig and welcome to the board,

I think ex-shep hit the nail on the head. Without being pedantic, I think it is important to remember that we are being submitted to Christ, not a church. It is a group of individuals walking together in their relationship to christ which causes them to relate in humility with one another, but we are never to submit to abuse. Never, never never. It is ALWAYS wrong.
My ex-elders used to call themselves fathers in the faith and shephards and used that as an excuse to demand abject submission by everone else in the church. Scripture says to "call no man father". It also says that Jesus is the great shephard.

This is one issue we are all continuing to mull over I am afraid. I don't know that there are any actual short answers to this.

As to how to recover when you feel broken inside, I know that one only too well. The fellowship on this board will help you, I know that much, regardless of how you decide to tackle this one nikkig....

love and blessings

[Jerry]

what does it really mean to be submissive to a church? and what do you do when you feel broken inside and the past hangs over you?
Short answer ?????????? ,,,,,,,,,Find another Church.Submission to a Church is a rather abstract concept difficult to define.In a Church properly administered,that functions as intended by Christ,submission to said Church is a nonissue that would never even come up for discussion.....Submission does not equal Inslavement........................
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

Many, perhaps even most churches as we know them have been constructed by human hands and have committees to organize events.

But the real church is made of people. Paul suggested that we submit to one another in love. But love is not always present in church situations, too often it is missing.

Where you see manipulation, legalism, greed, selfishness, hollowness, false character, fighting, that is not love.

Love from the heart always comes together with sincerity, peace, patience, truth, kindness, respect, humility.....I'd look for a church where most or all members including the pastor, especially the pastor, have those qualities at least in some measure, see the verse about the fruit of the Holy Spirit, Galatians 5:22. It isn't a myth, I have seen one church that comes close where everyone was really working on having those qualities and living them in their daily lives. Unfortunately I can't live near that church. Everyone submits to the other by doing the best he possibly can with his character, by conforming to God's character (not the pastor's), by dying to the bad character traits in himself. Nobody there was obsequious, servile, wishy-washy or milquetoast. The pastor was humble and didn't lord it over the congregation. No one was putting on a show. All were very natural about the whole thing. They were also very interested in understanding God through Scripture as well.

Fellowship online - here I think that everyone is sympathetic and willing to help out where he can. Most will understand where you are coming from. The best thing is to have a few solid trusty friends with those good qualities that you can see and touch, that are willing to help you too. They may not always know where you are coming from, but will be right there on the spot day or night if you need them with a hug, or a hearing ear.

[jane]

what does it really mean to be submissive to a church?

Oh gosh, just give them everything that you own right now....your time, your life, your money, your relationships....give it all up.

Because if they are teaching you to be submissive to the church-

you my dear are in a BAD place even if it feels good, loving, warm and fuzzy......

and maybe slowly, maybe faster - that is what will be taken from you......

and in the end you will look like a dazed rag doll who doesn't even know who Christ is anymore.....or who you are.....or where you belong....


I know this because I am one of those rag dolls....


seriously- submission? Think, Jesus told wives to submit to their husbands...and husbands to LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES FOR THEIR WIVES>>>>>>>>

CHRIST DIED FOR US......

now that is real submission.......Is this church that is asking you to submit to it going to DIE FOR YOU ?????????????

if no, then RUN RUN RUN as fast as you can................and don't turn back.


Just my opinion.

I mean really, do a bible search, does it say submit to the church ANYWHERE? They are already taking a scripture out of context.

love,
jane

[gwen]

DITTO! DITTO! DITTO! to what Jane said!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

Our former "pastor" used Hebrews 13:17 all the time to proof-text that we needed to submit to him. He said that "obedience/submission to leadership (him) was the same as obedience to God". When we left the cult "church", we ended up hiring Rick Ross to do an intervention for our middle son to free him from the mind control that he was still under. (See www.rickross.com ...an excellent, top-notch site about cults and abusive churches. Rick is a nationally known cult expert.) Rick showed us a videotaped Bible study that discussed the true meaning behind Hebrews 13:17 (as well as a few other verses that "pastors" use...I can't remember what ones because our former "pastor" mainly stuck with Heb. 13:17, so that one really sticks in my mind). Anyway, the original Greek language does NOT mean "blind obedience"--which is what our former "pastor" said that it meant...he actually used the words "blind obedience" when he would talk about submission. The original Greek actually means that IF the leader has convinced you of TRUTH, then you should be cooperative...basically live peacefully with others...and THAT lines up with other scriptures. And that is balanced out with so many other scriptures that say that leaders are not to lord over people, but lead by servanthood...that we are to obey God rather than man...that we are to discern false leadership...those who call themselves apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors...and then not to follow those false leaders.

I hope this helps you...

Love, Gwen

[SpinningHead]

When people talk about being submissive, I am of the opinion that they leave out a HUGE factor from the subject...and that is that a person has a responsibility/accountability to what they are choosing to submit themselves to. (I've just read that a few times...is that reading right??)

We choose who/what authority/instructions we are are going to submit to. Am I required to submit to a pastor or a group of people? No, that's called a cult. Am I required to submit to the teachings and leadings of God? Yes....and how wonderful God is to have all the patience in the universe to work with me as I learn how to submit to Him & His will for my own happiness & health. Am I to submit to my hubby? Yes, as long as his intentions/directions/lovings line up with the Word of God... If they don't, then I have a responsibility to tell him no. I often tell hubby that I love him so much that I'd do anything for him...even tell him "no" when he's in the wrong. :cool:

When husband put their family's financial stability in jeapordy to please a church, his submission priorities are screwed up! :confused: When a wife spends all her time doing for the church to please the church, but neglects her family...screwed up! :confused: If I file bankruptcy but I'm giving above and beyond my 10% to the church...screwed up! :confused:

Ok...I'm done. Good post. Just wanted that factor to be considered in the conversations. Thanks.

[ex-shep]

I hear the term all the time in my church. It was to be in lockstep with the leadership. When the leader left, a less legalistic interpretation was arrived. From what I have heard, and I confess my notetaking was not to par at the time, great care has been taken to look at the topic in its proper context. I still need to do my homework, although I have not had any alarm bells go off this corner of the denomination. I can readily understand and immediately empathise if anyone bristled. There are certainly times I would.

[ex-shep]

Short answer ?????????? ,,,,,,,,,Find another Church.Submission to a Church is a rather abstract concept difficult to define.In a Church properly administered,that functions as intended by Christ,submission to said Church is a nonissue that would never even come up for discussion.....Submission does not equal Inslavement........................
Love Jerry


Good point. I does remind one of the Buddy's Carpet commercials to get out of there fast.

[Enochwar]

what does it really mean to be submissive to a church? and what do you do when you feel broken inside and the past hangs over you?



From experience.....it is not possible to "submit" until one is at least beginning to heal....

You need a church to help you find love, grace and forgiveness.....

I have a question....what is the result of mindless submission? My results have always been brokeness and hurt for myself and those around me....

Run...

Like jane said...."RUN RUN RUN as fast as you can................and don't turn back.
..... do a bible search, does it say submit to the church ANYWHERE? They are already taking a scripture out of context."

Take what you can use.....keep reading here keep posting and for goodness sakes keep asking questions....

Enochwar.....