Religion vs. Religious Extremism

[Voyager]

The difference between religion and religious extremism is very clear to me: Religious people impose their religious rules and doctrines on themselves, whereas religious extremists impose their religious rules and doctrines on humanity.

Nine out of ten Christian and Muslim groups are somewhat liberal and moderate in the enforcement of their religious belief system. These are the groups that the religious extremists refer to as "dead churches". One out of ten religious groups fall into the religious extremist or fundamentalist categories. These are the high-demand groups that demand a strict adherence to their religious laws and doctrines. The members of these groups then try to impose adherence to their beliefs onto the general public.

Religious wars such as the one being fought in the Middle East are all the result of religious extremism. The Muslims do not want George Bush to force his religious beliefs of "democracy" onto them. Yet, they impose their extremist religious beliefs onto their entire society and all of humanity (i.e. 9/11). There seem to be many more religious extremists in the Middle East per capita than there are in other parts of the world. I believe that this is due to a high jobless rate and because of the way the Islam religion dominates that part of the world. The peer pressure to become a Muslim extremist in the Middle East is very high.

Do you think the world would be better off without religious extremism? If so, do you think there is a way to get rid of it without killing the extremists by war? If a group of people have decided that you are evil and deserve to die, is there a peaceful solution to stopping them from killing you? Many of us realize that it is nearly impossible to deconvert a religious extremist.

People wonder why I bother to speak out against religious extremism. I have outlined in this post the reasons why I do it. Any group that devalues other humans based on their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) is a dangerous group. They may not take the lives of their followers in a physical sense, but they do so in a psychological sense. I know because it happened to me. I was a religious extremist. I was brainwashed to devalue other humans who did not believe the way I did.

Now that I look back, the only difference between me when I was a religious extremist and an Al Qaeda member is the fact that I didn't believe in killing the "infidels" who opposed my beliefs. However, I did condemn them to hell along with my other fellow church members. So now when I see people condemning other members to hell for opposing their beliefs - I don't take it personal. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

:cool:

[Voyager]

I hope no one felt like this was inappropriate to post here. It's just a culmination of my feelings after being away from a high-demand religious group for seven years now. If I offended anyone with anything I said, I apologize.

:cool:

[mstar]

you didn't offend me. . .you are right on, but try to tell that to the Extreme Right and their churches.

[gwen]

The difference between religion and religious extremism is very clear to me: Religious people impose their religious rules and doctrines on themselves, whereas religious extremists impose their religious rules and doctrines on humanity.

I like your explanation and I think that it is true.


Do you think the world would be better off without religious extremism? If so, do you think there is a way to get rid of it without killing the extremists by war? If a group of people have decided that you are evil and deserve to die, is there a peaceful solution to stopping them from killing you? Many of us realize that it is nearly impossible to deconvert a religious extremist.



Yes, I do believe the world would be better off without religious extremism...but how to get rid of it? I don't know...I don't know if there is a way to get rid of it...I think it's been around since the beginning of time.


About your second post...I wasn't offended by your original post, but thought that it was thought provoking...

Gwen

[jjc9497]

I think Jesus was very much about loving each other and the inner heart attitude and not about rules and regulations. I think He would have viewed the Pharisees as the religious extremists of His day, and He certainly didn't have much good to say of them. He also was clear that the religious leaders knew the truth, but kept if hidden and led others down the wrong path (rules). I like His idea better. I'd certainly rather have a place where people just love me whether I follow the rules or not.

[Voyager]

I think Jesus was very much about loving each other and the inner heart attitude and not about rules and regulations. I think He would have viewed the Pharisees as the religious extremists of His day, and He certainly didn't have much good to say of them.
The ironic thing is that most religious extremists would never admit that their actions resemble those of the Pharisees. They believe that everything that opposes their way of thinking is "persecution for the cause of Christ". (That's what my former pastor told us anyway.)

:(

[Janice]

I think Jesus was very much about loving each other and the inner heart attitude and not about rules and regulations. I think He would have viewed the Pharisees as the religious extremists of His day, and He certainly didn't have much good to say of them. He also was clear that the religious leaders knew the truth, but kept if hidden and led others down the wrong path (rules). I like His idea better. I'd certainly rather have a place where people just love me whether I follow the rules or not.

Amen to that!!

[Carmen]

What I find interesting is that hardly anyone accuses the Israelis of religious extremism. With them it has gone into politics and into the oppression of the Palestinians, that in my opinion will only make things worse. That is why the Palestinians respond in like manner.

When I was learning German with a bunch of students also foreigners in Germany there was one Palestinian that liked to ask me questions, sometimes out of real curiosity, other times to get into a religious discussion. The poor guy always looked as though a bomb was going to go off somewhere nearby, I think it is due to the Israeli bombs that did occasionally blow up where he could hear or see them.

One time he asked me why the church bells rang every hour in Germany. He may have wanted to compare it to the six times a day they pray in Palestina. But there may have been more to it. They made him more nervous than he already was despite the fact that rational knowledge told him better. Just knowing that something unexpected can happen can make one nervous. I hate it when they test sirens here or when I was in Germany. I knew that there are practically no tornadoes in Europe, but hearing the sirens always brings back the feeling when they would go off during a tornado warning, I can't help but look up and feel really awful. Germans that have been through the war will tell me the same thing, the sirens bring their childhood back to them, when they had to fear for their lives.

Fundamentalism is not limited only to religion, but can be a mindset that influences nationalism, politics and even economics as well. I read a book called Fundamentalist World by Stuart Sim. He explores the different types of Fundamentalism and why they are dangerous, a good read.

In my opinion somebody ought to warn the Israelis before they go too far, they may already have done so. Those that have been abused can become abusers if they don't watch it. What happened in Nazi Germany can happen anywhere if the conditions are right for it. This time the wall is being built first. What will come after?

[Willow]

Good post voyager!

[jane]

voyager-

your post reminded me of a conversation that I heard a few years back, before I entered that church that we were in for so many years and abused....


A pentescostal woman was talking to a man who seemed to be studying islam but not necessarily part of them yet- he was angry and picking up the political islamic rant that you often hear around here in the prisons....

He was calmly saying, "what I don't get is why you have to shove your beliefs down my throat.... I have my beliefs and the difference is that I am not trying to convert you....why can't you have your religion and I have mine?"

Her answer, "because MY religion mandates me to preach to you and show you your error."

:eek:

She really believed that Jesus wanted her to show them and was calling on His strength to help her speak truth into his life....critical truth, not love.


jane

[InTheory]

Voyager et al, I love what the dvd insert says in U2's latest Vertigo tour DVD-"Don't become a monster in order to defeat a monster." I think we struggle with this constantly, whether we have been in fundamentalist mindsets or find ourselves on the outside trying to make sense of it (as Voyager so eloquently described in his posed conundrum of trying to rid the world of this evil without committing evil to make it go away).

Fundamentalism isn't just a religious problem either, as Carmen has stated.

It's a tough issue-I have come to believe (which doesn't mean much since I have "come to believe" many things over the years :cool: ) that true spirituality doesn't come from worship of a "holy" book or set of rules, but rather comes from the idea and "spirit" (don't mean to sound superspiritual of christianese-y) behind the idea of God.

I believe that Jesus came to restore true fellowship and unity among people-hence his focus on the "golden rule" commandment(s).

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant from my perspective!!!

Love you guys and gals!

-Dan

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Voyager][SIZE="2"]The difference between religion and religious extremism is very clear to me: Religious people impose their religious rules and doctrines on themselves, whereas religious extremists impose their religious rules and doctrines on humanity.

Interesting think piece. I love the comment of those churches which do not impose as being . This is an issue I struggle with on several fronts. It was certainly the love Christians had which I found attractive. I had warm memories in two rural Methodist churches. When I broke up with the woman who went there, I found myself missing her family more than her. So I went to church in the college town I lived in.

Evangelism is a scriptural command, but one can be so "on fire for the Lord that they cause a burning conflagration to everyone around them". I love the saying he is so "heavenly minded he is no earthly good." I have to be a and positive for my wife and not be coercive.

The senior minister of an urban Methodist has the saying "Thou shalt not convert sinners in the produce section." There is nothing more unnerving than an unsolicted hard sell. I tend to gravitate to scripture to always have message for the hope that is in one. Attraction rather than promotion as AA would put it.

Good post.

[ex-shep]

I hope no one felt like this was inappropriate to post here. It's just a culmination of my feelings after being away from a high-demand religious group for seven years now. If I offended anyone with anything I said, I apologize.

:cool:

It is possible a reader may feel triggered, especially someone recenlty out his group. The post, however, was an emotionally self examination of your experiences-- and a good one at that. Had I read the post the first couple years out of my group, I would have taken the post in context.

[Voyager]

I had warm memories in two rural Methodist churches. When I broke up with the woman who went there, I found myself missing her family more than her.
Very revealing statement Ex-Shep. I have felt that people are often attracted to churches as a substitute for a missing or dysfunctional family. I know I was. The sad part is that I let myself become connected to all of the members as family. Then when it became abusive and we escaped, we suffered a traumatic loss similar to someone losing their entire family in a tragedy. Many of the victims of Hurricane Katrina are being treated for PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) because they lost their families and friends - and their familiar surroundings which gave them a sense of purpse in life. This is exactly what many of us went through when we lost church families.

:cool:

[Voyager]

Evangelism is a scriptural command, but one can be so "on fire for the Lord that they cause a burning conflagration to everyone around them". I love the saying he is so "heavenly minded he is no earthly good."
I think it's possible to evangelize but not impose religious rules on someone. For example:

1. "God has really helped me in my life. I know He wants to comfort anyone who will turn to Him."

has a much better tone than...

2. "You need to come to my church and abide by my pastor's religious rules or you will go to hell. Otherwise there is no hope for you."

See the difference? The #2 message above sounds more like the message that my former church was promoting (maybe not in those exact words, but that was the meaning it conveyed). Religious extremism always uses fear and guilt to manipulate, and it is always exclusive.

:cool:

[ex-shep]

Very revealing statement Ex-Shep. I have felt that people are often attracted to churches as a substitute for a missing or dysfunctional family. I know I was. The sad part is that I let myself become connected to all of the members as family. Then when it became abusive and we escaped, we suffered a traumatic loss similar to someone losing their entire family in a tragedy. Many of the victims of Hurricane Katrina are being treated for PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) because they lost their families and friends - and their familiar surroundings which gave them a sense of purpse in life. This is exactly what many of us went through when we lost church families.

:cool:

Actually the church and family was quite healthy. But you do have a point about members of dysfunctional families being attracted to cults and dysfunctional churches. Certainly describes Tammy and I in our respective experiences.

[ex-shep]

I think it's possible to evangelize but not impose religious rules on someone. For example:

1. "God has really helped me in my life. I know He wants to comfort anyone who will turn to Him."

has a much better tone than...

2. "You need to come to my church and abide by my pastor's religious rules or you will go to hell. Otherwise there is no hope for you."

See the difference? The #2 message above sounds more like the message that my former church was promoting (maybe not in those exact words, but that was the meaning it conveyed). Religious extremism always uses fear and guilt to manipulate, and it is always exclusive.

:cool:

Excellent dichotomy. The church I attend is there and open for anyone who walks in. The programs are in the bulletin and flashed on the screen. Sign up when you are interested. If you need help, here are our numbers and email addresses. There is also a saying, a far cry from the early legalistic days of Tammy's group, "do not try to write with your left hand [assuming one is right handed]". Do not be feel forced or coerced into something which is not one dish of tea.

[gwen]

Very revealing statement Ex-Shep. I have felt that people are often attracted to churches as a substitute for a missing or dysfunctional family. I know I was. The sad part is that I let myself become connected to all of the members as family. Then when it became abusive and we escaped, we suffered a traumatic loss similar to someone losing their entire family in a tragedy. Many of the victims of Hurricane Katrina are being treated for PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) because they lost their families and friends - and their familiar surroundings which gave them a sense of purpse in life. This is exactly what many of us went through when we lost church families.

:cool:

Did you feel disjointed and/or disoriented by losing your "church family"? I can't explain how I felt and even continue to feel about the "burned bridges". These people were my friends...they had been as close as family. Just today, when I was at Curves, the manager and another lady were talking about "long-time friends" that they had...my mind wandered to my long-time friends that are no longer there. It is as if they're all dead...Other than the "pastor", I miss them all, and I'm so sorry that they're still there and still "brainwashed" to believe that he's some great apostle!

Gwen

[ex-shep]

Did you feel disjointed and/or disoriented by losing your "church family"? I can't explain how I felt and even continue to feel about the "burned bridges". These people were my friends...they had been as close as family. Just today, when I was at Curves, the manager and another lady were talking about "long-time friends" that they had...my mind wandered to my long-time friends that are no longer there. It is as if they're all ...Other than the "pastor", I miss them all, and I'm so sorry that they're still there and still "brainwashed" to believe that he's some great apostle!

Gwen

There certainly positive memories of our groups; otherwise we would have left far sooner. I have tons of anecdotes from the bible school. Former members of Tammy's group have a sophisticated vaudeville schtick about their experiences. I doubt it would sell albums, but it quite entertaining. Many years ago I had a chorus stuck in my head and I could not get rid of it. I turned the obsessive stuck record melody into a robust Vienese waltz tune. As Bugs Bunny was wont to say, "Fight fire with fire they always say".