Hoping to hear from ex-Calvary Chapel [Archive]

profnachos

02-05-2006, 08:37 PM

Amy, that very last church I attended on a somewhat regular basis was a Calvary Chapel in and around Orange County, California which is a hotbed of Evangelical mega churches. In fact, I have been involved with various Calvary Chapelsoff and on for the past 8 years and officially gave up just a few months ago.

Can't say I have been abused largely because I was never intimately involved enough to have been abused, because they seem to be so hard to break into.

But I have some serious doctrinal differences particularly when it comes to their sensationalization of end times prophecy and unconditional political advocacy for the nation of Israel.

Hi, I am new to this forum. I'm hopiing to get in touch with anybody who had a tough time - or is right now - with Calvary Chapel.

My husband was an assistant pastor, I was the pastor's wife's prayer partner and helped her teach Bible studies. I was also a worship leader.

We left after becoming more and more concerned about how the pastor was dealing with the people, his leaders, the finances (no accountability even though there was a board - ignored them); and the Calvary Chapel philosophy of leadership- after going to pastors' retreats in Costa Mesa we realized that our church was not an aberration. I found the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and felt like the authors had been a fly on the wall in every room of our church!

In the end we were blacklisted among th CC churches in our state after leaving. When we'd try going to a different one, we were greeted with ice a week or two after showing up - after our former pastor found where we were, he called and painted us as troublemakers! After that we got the courage to leave the denomination completely. Recovery is tough, my husband still struggles a LOT.

We also left CC's main doctrines after I went to Fuller Seminary and studied Master's degree courses in Greek and Church history.

Blessings to All of You...:)

jane

02-05-2006, 09:03 PM

Hello Calvary chapel mom----

That would be me....well, we were in another church for about 9 years, left it for spiritual abuse and went to Calvary Chapel of Greater Hartford.

ever been there?

we are no longer in ANY church. type my name, look for my posts about it and ask any questions that you would like.

jane

jordie

02-05-2006, 10:04 PM

Welcome,

Haven't had anything to do with Calvary Chapel, but they sound like they were run by the same people who ran our wonderful group...

Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse was a book we are still using eighteen months later after our cult exit. Its good to know these resources are there...

Can't believe your old church leaders still made your life difficult even after you left the church. The level of some people's vengefulness is apalling.

I am sure you will find a great deal of support and help here...

Jerry

02-06-2006, 06:15 AM

Dear ArmyMom,,,
I know we try to gain insight within our own particular experience. However "Church Abuse" is seldom consistant accross an entire denomination,and has more to do with the leadership within the individual Churches,and further how that "Leadership" applys the doctrine of a given denomination.The best way to disearn "Abuse" is to apply the "Duck Thing" :D . If it looks like a "Duck",if it walks like a "Duck",if it quacks like a "Duck",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well then it's a "Duck" :D
Love Jerry
P.S. Don't be mislead by my use of humor,,,,I consider "Church Abuse" a very serious issue ;) WELCOME !!

jane

02-06-2006, 09:58 AM

Armymom-

I was looking through my posts and trying to find where I wrote about my calvary experiences and WOW I write a lot and got over whelmed trying to find the threads.

So here it is:

We basically left a horrible church after many years of serving and considering them family.....and went to another church because we believed that you could not be without a church covering.

My husband visited this church without me and really loved it....so after a few weeks I went. On the day that I went there was another couple there from down south....and the pastor announced that this couple would become the new pastor as he was being called back to California....

the church seemed stunned, they didn't know.

the deal was that when the current pastor sold his home, the new pastor would take over the church. This would give everyone time for the "transition".

my husband was bummed, he like the old pastor.
I thought he was a little "off".

The first sermon that I heard was about "Larry"....."Larry" was a man who had apparently been calling him and threatening him, extorted money or something.
So the Pastor called the police, they tapped their phones etc..... Larry turned out to be a mentally ill man from Canada who had called several churches......

ok, so now we know the guy is ill, right?

The pastor goes on to say........"I prayed and told Larry, "CALL ME AGAIN AND GOD IS GOING TO STOP YOUR HEART..... REACH DOWN IN YOU AND PULL IT OUT DEAD," Told the guy to be saved or be dead.....because he was harming the hairs of the annointed one....

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????

God is in the mob? God kills people who are ill and make phone calls?

There was a murderous rage in the pastor's tone, I wanted to run.

Long story short......the church splits.....the old pastor robs us- he is a carpenter and we paid him upfront for labor and materials to redo our kitchen....and he left with the job undone and all of our money............

the second couple was racist, sexist, controlling, liars....manipulators...hmmm they caused the split..............they went to the "heads" of the church and kicked out the current pastor before tthe house sold,,,, so everyone followed the old pastor who left calvary and started his own church....

I could write for hours, and it was only about 6 or 7 months that we had dealings with this group, spoke to leaders in Pennsylvania and California. I was disgusted.

The elder in Pennsylvania, when I told him how the church split, right in service and people were crying.....he said, "well, you know that sheep are skittish...."

WHAT THE HE>>????????????????????

God's children are dumb sheep>?????

Yup, we won't be going to calvary chapel...............

jane

ex-shep

02-09-2006, 09:54 PM

I remember a support group for former members of the more virulent manifestation of Calvary Chapel. you may want to try to do an internet search. Calvary varies all over the lot. I know two close to where I live. One is solid relaxed easy going. The other has every red light and siren going off making me dive for cover.

I can understand why one forum member has not a problem and good feelings while another I falling to pieces in triggered anxiety. Of course if a group is that inconstistanly good and bad, that should, at the least, be cause for concern.

Carmen

02-10-2006, 09:43 AM

Hi Army Mom,

I don't have experience with Calvary Chapel, but agree with ex-shep, if they are not at least consistent in doctrine that is already a cause for concern, not to mention what happened to you. I don't like it when they tell the congregation not to "gossip", that is not to tell others what doesn't seem right in a church, and then the pastor himself goes around saying things about members or former members that even follow them into other churches. Talk about double standard. And the others tend to believe them just because they are pastors.

I think that doctrine is often coupled with abuse, an authoritarian doctrine can attract people to the position of pastor if it offers power, influence and/or money, the same kind of doctrine usually trains the congregation members to accept fleecing and abuse. There are other doctrines that make people ready to believe in anything, like apostolic/prophetic beliefs. It seems to me that especially these two types can cause a lot of damage, the believers feel guilty if they are seen to "rebel" against what is interpreted as "God's Word" or the pastor's. Being kicked out of such a church can be seen by the adherents as equal to being kicked out of heaven. In my opinion that is all poppycock. No one church or denomination has a monopoly on the gospel.

It seems that you have done a lot of studying toward healing. I hope you and your husband find it. If you do find more information about a large number of people being abused at Calvary Chapel it would interest me too.

Carmen

ex-shep

02-10-2006, 06:47 PM

[QUOTE=Carmen]Hi Army Mom,

I don't have experience with Calvary Chapel, but agree with ex-shep, if they are not at least consistent in doctrine that is already a cause for concern, not to mention what happened to you. I don't like it when they tell the congregation not to "gossip", that is not to tell others what doesn't seem right in a church, and then the pastor himself goes around saying things about members or former members that even follow them into other churches. Talk about double standard. And the others tend to believe them just because they are pastors.

Dead on accurate. That was a buzzward for Tammy's group. It is in the new members covenant in our church and I still cringe. Fortunately there are open and frank discussions about our shortcomings from leadership and rank and file membership. So we are all as even a equal footing as possible.

Valid point though.

Carmen

02-14-2006, 01:07 AM

Do you mean that they sign a covenant where it says they won't "gossip"?

I can see signing a work contract where you do say that you will keep industrial discoveries secret from other companies, but they generally don't hurt anyone.

The kind of "gossip" they want to keep down is what people should know before they decide to join such a church. I understand that normal gossip should not be accepted like, "Did you see what she had on last Sunday? That was fit for a tramp." Such things are not called for, but when there are issues of money being stuck in a pastor's pockets rather than being used to help the poor or suspicion of manipulation and abuse, those things should come out in the open, loudly, I say.

ex-shep

02-17-2006, 02:45 PM

The kind of "gossip" they want to keep down is what people should know before they decide to join such a church. I understand that normal gossip should not be accepted like, "Did you see what she had on last Sunday? That was fit for a tramp." Such things are not called for, but when there are issues of money being stuck in a pastor's pockets rather than being used to help the poor or suspicion of manipulation and abuse, those things should come out in the open, loudly, I say.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, I had a long talk with the staff on that one. The senior pastor has been with the denomination for nearly 30 years and remembered the shepherding too well. The group definition was not to make any negative comments or the member would be out of the will of God. Great way to sheild oneself from criticism.

The definition of gossip is akin the "normal gossip" you mentioned above. Do not make disparaging comments behind somebody's and do not interfere with an issue that is not the member's business. Do not be an obtrusive busybody in everyone's affair. Just for a point of reference, I asked if it were similar to the 12 step slogan of "if it is a problem and it is not your problem then it is not a problem". The membership coordinator responded, "Yeah, something like that".
That worked for me.

The senior pastor reassured me, "Check out our church meeting. I can be a rip roaring anything goes". The implication was one was allowed to voice one's concerns without retribution. I was felt comfortable enough to let my objection go and take his word for it.

Any serious student of the history of the group knows that the National Association of Evangelicals called them on the carpet for their abuses of their members in the realm of shepherding. My understanding is if they were to be recognised an a denomination, that should better straighten up and fly right. The anti cult movement was fully tuned in at the same time. This occured in the early Nineties. The complied and cleaned house. The current incarnation ranges from healthy and inviting to same old same and head for the hills.

I fully understand your concern about gossip. I know all too well how it can be used as a thought stopping cliche. The pentecostal bible still has in their handbook the definition of gossip as not to say anything negative, even if it were a constructive criticism, or the student would be disloyal and subject to harsh discipline. That left me cold.

In any case, great comment from you. Appreciated the observation and keeping me on the straight and narrow. Next latte on me.

ex-shep

02-17-2006, 02:47 PM

Addendum

The definition of gossip is akin the "normal gossip" you mentioned above. Do not make disparaging comments behind somebody's and do not interfere with an issue that is not the member's business.

should read:

The definition of gossip, in the church today, is akin the "normal gossip" you mentioned above...

Synapses were not synapsing. Sorry

AZsongbird

03-02-2006, 07:56 AM

Hi ArmyMom,

We are in a Calvary Chapel now and have been in one for over 10 years. I understand your concerns and share them.

My story is too long to go into detail here, but I became more involved in our Calvary about 5 years ago--before that I was too busy with our children to do much. I joined the worship band and over time, the leader devoted a lot of attention to helping me sing better. I felt like something was not right but couldn't put it into words. As time went on the leader confessed his attraction to me and I unwisely stayed on the team, feeling God had called me to it and also being attached to the leader, whom I had come to view as almost a father to me. He became more overt in his comments and graciously God brought the situation to an end before he made any physical advances. He was already on bad terms with the pastors on staff and this situation was an opportunity to remove him. It ended with a big blowup, and him and half the band leaving the church.

God used this in my life to show me that being submissive to leadership is different from being passive. I had been passive with the leader in that my devotion to him was so great that I would not challenge him when he clearly was being inappropriate.

The way things ended was so troublesome to me. I truly wanted the advances to end, but my desire was that repentance ( on both sides) would take place and restoration would occur. Instead, what occured was an angry outburst, people leaving, and denials from the pulpit that anything was wrong. ( The congregation was told they were "just trying something new" when a new band appeared one Sunday morning--ours forever gone.)

I began to notice a pattern that seemed to occur in our church. People would get really involved, almost to the point at times where the church consumed their lives. After a season, leadership would find fault with them, there would be conflict, attacks of rage, and the people would be "cast out". I am friends with a few this has happened to, and the hurt is long lasting and deep. One friend said the thought of reading her Bible made her want to throw up. The attacks seem to occur when leadership is challenged in any way, or when people resist being controlled. ( I know of at least 2 cases where men on staff have been told not to associate with certain former members, not because they are in blatant sin, but because they have left Calvary on bad terms with leadership.)

We are now at another Calvary, one that has ties with the old one. We recently were so troubled that we went to our current pastor to voice these concerns. Amazingly, he does not really see the sinfulness of leaders ranting and even physically threatening fellow believers--or he does not believe it goes on.

So do we stay or leave? My husband's fear is that we will go to another church, only to find a new sets of problems a few years down the road. My fear is that our current pastor's denial of problems at the other church is affecting and will affect our church. I find that there is a superficiality to the relationships there--many people have come from the old church, and there is an unspoken rule--don't talk about it. At our ladies study, I have only very obliquely referred to the situation with the worship leader at the other Calvary--even though it was a heart breaking and life changing experience. What is the point of fellowship if our deepest hurts are not shared with one another?

I also believe the cover up of sin that goes on( I think to protect the reputation of Calvary) puts the flock in danger. Nothing was said from the pulpit of what happened to me, no one in leadership even TALKED to me about what happened. The pastor decided what to do based on talking to women I had confided in, and to my husband. I was surprised that no one wanted to know the progression of the comments that were made, in order to avoid it happening again. Well, it did happen again, on a much grander scale, less than 2 years later. A man in leadership seduced at least three women in the congregation. When leadership found out, he was told to stay away from women in the church. Again, nothing was said from the pulpit--there could be other women victimized who are suffering in silence.

I would appreciate prayer in dealing with all that has happened. There is someone who posts here called "spinninghead" and I can relate to that! My head spins around, trying to process all that has occurred. I feel like I stepped on a rollarcoaster 5 years ago and I am more than ready to get off.

God bless,
AZsongbird

Janice

03-03-2006, 12:54 AM

Welcome to the forum AZsongbird!

You are not alone. This kind of stuff happens is ALL churches not just Calvery Chapel unfrotunately. I attend Assembly of God myself and the same stuff happens there.

Hopefully you will find peace and understanding here.

I am sorry you had to go thru what you did.

I just try to keep focused on the "problem solver" instead of the problem. Nope..it's not always an easy thing to do but it's what I have to do.

AZsongbird

03-03-2006, 07:01 AM

Thank you, Janice. That is a good reminder!

God bless,
AZsongbird

hornblower

03-03-2006, 07:56 AM

Its almost like these churches see the gospel as being limited to them and them alone. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
The church as the bible reads is universal so how can that be? To me that is a cult. Or anyway its cult like behavior. Ive been in one good church, it was small very small, didnt grow much which I dont know if thats good or not but again most people just didnt 'get it'. It was like a family, a disfunctional family with people not getting along. The difference was the leadership was ok with that and in fact sort of embrased it. They ministered to these people including me. All kinds of people were there. Rich poor strong weak disabled loud quiet old young in between. The pastor and hiw wife had problems with their children with each other and they talked about those problems openly and readily admitted that they were not in any way perfect but they were there for you and if they werent they apologised. A lot of people came and tried to change it, tried to make it grow. Im telling you that was and will always be the most healthy church I have ever been in. Still though its gone now, the way it was that is, something else is happening now in that same building. May still be good I dont know but anyway it broke up and it was bad the whole thing. I was helpless to bring people together during the breakup.
Maybe this is the way its always going to be I dont know.
All I know is that Jesus is the only ONE I submit too. 'Cause He died for me, these other numb skulls didnt and dont die except in their own minds, so there you go. Im not following them down their loused up roads.

Songbird

03-03-2006, 08:02 AM

Hi,
I am a new/returning post-er to this site, thanks to Theodora! (Hi mom and Pops!)...anyway, I have extensive experience in Calvary and would LOVE to email you or talk about it more if you want.

I have left Calvary and am basically a lost soul since leaving. I am so sorry you had a bad experience...it really is becoming so legalistic now and not at all what I think Pastor Chuck intended it to be.

Since I left our Calvary because we moved to a neighboring city, it is like I never existed. Ever see the movie "Eraser"? Well, I have been "erased." It is really a trip, since I was extremely involved for many years, became very close with the pastor and his family....I am still in shock over all of it, really.

The Calvary I went to does not believe in psychotherapy. Just pray about it. Leave it at the cross. Forget the past. That is what i was told over and over again. I thought I was crazy!

You are in a good place here. Listen to Theodora. She saved my life when I left that church. I thought there was something fatally wrong with ME...when I learned through her and through a very good counselor that perhaps there might be something wrong with their doctrine or in their understanding of counseling.

I love my friends and pastor dearly. I pray for them...they just don't get abuse or ptsd or anything that doesn't fit into their doctrine. I know that every church is different, and that applies to Calvaries...it just seems there is a trend recently that to be a good Calvary you have to regularly beat the sheep to get them to perform. That is how it felt to me at least.

You are not alone...and I feel your pain...I am sorry you are going through this. It is hell to be devastated and betrayed like this. ;(

Theodora

03-03-2006, 08:40 AM

Good for you for coming "on board" to deal with some of this! I so treasure our friendship, and am thankful for our evolving relationship. You probably know that you've embarrassed me by your praise,but I am very thankful to think that I did have a little role to play in your healing. YOU are doing the WORK, however...and I am so PROUD of you!!!!!

More as able! "Pops" is home today and we've got a rather long list of mutual "honey-do's" to work on!!!

(((((((((((((((((((SONGBIRD))))))))))))))))--- LOVE your "handle" too! SING pretty for us today, OK??!? ;) :D

Love and prayers--

Theodora

--

Hi,
I am a new/returning post-er to this site, thanks to Theodora! (Hi mom and Pops!)...anyway, I have extensive experience in Calvary and would LOVE to email you or talk about it more if you want.

I have left Calvary and am basically a lost soul since leaving. I am so sorry you had a bad experience...it really is becoming so legalistic now and not at all what I think Pastor Chuck intended it to be.

Since I left our Calvary because we moved to a neighboring city, it is like I never existed. Ever see the movie "Eraser"? Well, I have been "erased." It is really a trip, since I was extremely involved for many years, became very close with the pastor and his family....I am still in shock over all of it, really.

The Calvary I went to does not believe in psychotherapy. Just pray about it. Leave it at the cross. Forget the past. That is what i was told over and over again. I thought I was crazy!

You are in a good place here. Listen to Theodora. She saved my life when I left that church. I thought there was something fatally wrong with ME...when I learned through her and through a very good counselor that perhaps there might be something wrong with their doctrine or in their understanding of counseling.

I love my friends and pastor dearly. I pray for them...they just don't get abuse or ptsd or anything that doesn't fit into their doctrine. I know that every church is different, and that applies to Calvaries...it just seems there is a trend recently that to be a good Calvary you have to regularly beat the sheep to get them to perform. That is how it felt to me at least.

You are not alone...and I feel your pain...I am sorry you are going through this. It is hell to be devastated and betrayed like this. ;(

Janice

03-04-2006, 01:00 AM

Welcome and/or welcome back Songbird. :)

K Mahathey

03-04-2006, 03:59 PM

Hi Armymom,

My husband and I have been involved in Calvary Chapels, due to our moves, in CA, NM, OK, IL. We helped start a church in one of those states. We saw alot of control issues and left. We have met others who have had problems at this church with a controlling pastor's wife and the pastor. Initially we thought the problems were only at that Calvary, but now I have researched and talked to others who have had problems at other Calvary Chapels and been very hurt. You are not alone in this.

The root of the problem seems to be the way the leadership of Calvary Chapel is set up. The pastor of the church is the head guy, CEO and you can't rid of him. He picks the board and often the board members are from out of state and don't really know what's going on. Some pastors get on a power trip and misuse money, play the Holy Spirit in peoples lives and go on a power trip. They begin saying things like "submit to me or leave", "if you don't like the way things are run then leave". The pastors are not accountable to anyone really.

Ken Merrihew, pastor of CC of Oklahoma City has written a book called "Follow Me". He has comments in the last chapters of the book such as "you should submit to the pastor even if you think he is wrong", "you should submit to leadership as a wife submits to her husband". You can find this book online. Aslo, Pastor Rick Coburn of CC of Dallas, TX doesn't think there is anything wrong with Ken's book. Pastor Rick is the Regional pastor of CC.

Others have been hurt by the leadership style as you have. When a church member leaves because of disagreement with leadership, they are seen as unsubmissive and they are shunned. Cult like behavior is present at some Calvary Chapels.

I will pray for you. I'm sure you and your husband are hurting. God can heal. I hope you get this message and maybe we can write back and forth.

People at Calvary Chapels come there because they like the verse by verse Bible teaching and contemprorary worship style, but have no idea how the leadership is really set up.

KRistin

ex-shep

03-04-2006, 07:28 PM

Hi,
I am a new/returning post-er to this site, thanks to Theodora! (Hi mom and Pops!)...anyway, I have extensive experience in Calvary and would LOVE to email you or talk about it more if you want.

I have left Calvary and am basically a lost soul since leaving. I am so sorry you had a bad experience...it really is becoming so legalistic now and not at all what I think Pastor Chuck intended it to be.

Since I left our Calvary because we moved to a neighboring city, it is like I never existed. Ever see the movie "Eraser"? Well, I have been "erased." It is really a trip, since I was extremely involved for many years, became very close with the pastor and his family....I am still in shock over all of it, really.

The Calvary I went to does not believe in psychotherapy. Just pray about it. Leave it at the cross. Forget the past. That is what i was told over and over again. I thought I was crazy!

You are not the first one to echo the comment of Chuck Smith. The comment on pyschotherapy should not surprise me. Great thought stopping cliche. Forget the past comment sounds erily familiar. We have a new nature in Christ, so every thing prior to the group is irrelevent. Great way of establishing a new world view. Great loading of language. Sounds cult like to me. I shudder at the post.
You are in a good place here. Listen to Theodora. She saved my life when I left that church. I thought there was something fatally wrong with ME...when I learned through her and through a very good counselor that perhaps there might be something wrong with their doctrine or in their understanding of counseling.

I love my friends and pastor dearly. I pray for them...they just don't get abuse or ptsd or anything that doesn't fit into their doctrine. I know that every church is different, and that applies to Calvaries...it just seems there is a trend recently that to be a good Calvary you have to regularly beat the sheep to get them to perform. That is how it felt to me at least.

You are not alone...and I feel your pain...I am sorry you are going through this. It is hell to be devastated and betrayed like this. ;(

Carmen

03-07-2006, 02:16 AM

I don't usually like to compare business with church, but the CEO reference is irresistible (won't touch the money issue here). Even CEO's can get hired or fired by the main stockholders and company boards.

Actually it is scriptural that the local community choose its leaders - those that serve the most and that have a good character. Paul let each community decide for itself, he didn't appoint leaders for each one, he just provided guidelines for the choice. Logically, anyone that is proven to have bad character or for some reason cannot fulfill his duties well, should not be in a position of leadership and can be fired, like a CEO. What Calvary C. is doing is not based on good judgement much less scripture and may fail despite all good intentions of the founder.

It is sad that one must "believe" in psychotherapy or not. Some cannot separate faith from reality where there are differences. That is already a bad sign that delusion is at work. Those who cannot separate the spiritual from the physical are not mentally healthy in my opinion, they cannot have a rational outlook on reality. It is like the mentality in the middle ages that could not accept the solar system with the sun in its middle rather than the earth. The religious leaders didn't want to hear that the earth was round because that didn't fit into their faith. Their mixture of superstion and faith could not stand up to the truth. I don't have faith in my car, but it is very useful nonetheless. Psychotherapy is one of those types of things for me, not necessarily Christian, but useful. There is a mentality like that of the middle ages that is gaining ground today, a tendency to blur the borders between the seen and the unseen, faith and science, superstition and science. It may be that the Calvary Cs already have taken hold of it.

Bernie

03-10-2006, 09:51 PM

Dear Army Mom

If by your coming out you have stopped another Calvary Chapel pastor from continuing to abuse his congregation or even becoming an abuser, then you did not suffer in vain. You may be labeled by the Calvary Chapel leadership as being a gossip or divisive. But to us who have suffered under their abusive leaders, find comfort that there is someone out there who has decided to take a stand for us.

Bernie

Bernie

03-11-2006, 01:16 PM

I have a suggestion for all those who have suffered abuses in a Calvary Chapel. Since they see themselves as the champion of God's truth, let's help them spread their message of truth. Many Calvary churches have their own websites where people can know more about their church and also listen to their pastor's messages online.

If someone knows of statements made by Calvary pastors that are abusive, cultic, or even heretical, let's post it on this forum for everyone to hear and find out for themselves if these preachers are teaching the truth. Besides, if they know they are teaching the truth, they wouldn't mind if they get a little help in spreading it wouldn’t they.

There’s a saying “consider the source”. Well our source would be the church’s resources itself. Let them incriminate themselves with their own words. When people started to question the validity of people of have been abused to prove what they are saying is true, I offered to post the church’s website for people to hear for themselves if what I was saying is true. Even though I didn’t mention the name of the Calvary Chapel church I was pointing out, when I went to the website I was planning to post after less than a week, I realized that the button on the website that would let people hear the pastor’s messages has been turned off.

You see when we start exposing cults this way; it eliminates their opportunities of calling their accusers liars. If they are teaching the truth they wouldn’t mind other people hearing their own words. They will either hide the facts and deny it or simply not address it. My concern is that they would edit out the cultic and abusive statements and put it the messages back.

Because Calvary Chapel pastors are not accountable to anyone other than to God, let’s hold them accountable in the worldwide web.

This is just my opinion though.

Bernie

Jerry

03-11-2006, 01:24 PM

Dear Bernie,,,,
I know how ya feel,,,,but we don't do that on this site,we ascribe to the notion that the Charactor of a church,government,or any other organazation,can be found in it's attitude toward its detractors.....;) It's ok bernie ,,,,we allow being pissed off too :D Personally ,,,,I would kick their ass up so far they would have to "Shit" through their ribs........But ...........we are peaceful here :D
Love Jerry

Carmen

03-13-2006, 09:54 AM

Start a serious site about the abuse at Calvary Chapel churches. Many did that because of the International Churches of Christ which is a cult. Now all you get when you look for it are the numerous sites that tell about abuse. That is bound to make people suspicious before they go to a group like that, I'm sure that it has kept many away.

ArmyMom

03-14-2006, 03:23 PM

Wow, Everybody!

Thank you soooo much for all of your responses. Having good company is great, wish the reason wasn't there.

There is a Calvary Chapel Abuse site - check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cc-abuse/ .

Blessings!

krm772

10-12-2006, 09:48 PM

Is this thread still active? I found it while searching for support about Calvary Chapel abuse. Their domination and authoritarian "pastors" left my wife and I with only the desire to run, far away from them. The sad part is, they have such a great "surface reputation", that the general Christian public will think you crazy for criticizing them. But once you get inside, and have ANY disagreement on even the smallest thing (compared to what the "senior pastor" thinks), you are labelled a troublemaker and a dicisive person.

Just curious if this thread can be resurrected, for lack of a better term. :)

My wife still struggles with the kind of things that were said to her by the "pastor". If Calvary Chapel doesn't qualify for the spiritual abuse category, then no organization does.

Jo Jo

10-13-2006, 12:45 AM

Hi krm772 :)

Yes, it can be resurrected and readdressed. I'm glad you asked about it.

It doesn't matter what the name of the church... abuse can go on inside of it. I'm not really familiar with Calvary Chapel, but have heard squirrelly things about them. I know there are others here that will know much more than I, and will have personal experience.

I came from an charimatic type church that I had been in for years, and when I asked questions I was labled a black sheep and finally had to leave by necessity. You have truely come to the right place.

I'm glad you found this thread and I'm glad you found us. You are very welcome here. I'm sorry for the hurt you and your wife are experiencing now.

douglaslewis777

10-13-2006, 11:10 AM

Jerry

10-13-2006, 01:46 PM

Interesting! I left a very abusive church to go to a Calvary Chapel. The Calvary I am attending seems to be a source of healing for ex abused Christians!

My new paster "seems" to be clearly different from what everyone is describing as Calvary Chapel.

WOW... This is really interesting. I have truly been abused and am now overly sensitive to any abuse. We really really considered a lot of things before coming to this church. I have been going there for a year and the pastor himself seems to have "escaped" from some of the abuses churches dish out (He left one). For this reason, he speaks out against the abusers.

Maybe he is unique in that he doesn't subscribe to the path these other so called pastors have. I've been "trying" to find some type of bondage here at this church & coming from a situation where everyone was treated like Hebrew slaves, THIS CALVARY isn't like what you guys describe.

I'm coming to realize in my healing, that there are some good pastors and some bad. I hope my new pastor doesn't go south! :p

Very interesting that Doug would resurrect this thread ,,,,and insodoing make an extremely valid point.........Unlike mainstream churches of Oh say even just 25 years ago,,,,,,,,there are few if any churches (even mainstream) that follow a uniform "Doctrine" and "Doctrine" is very much dependent upon "The Pastor" and the extent of his influence over a particular Church body.Consequently it is not surprising that one would have a spiritually satisfying experience at one "CALVARY CHAPEL",,,,,and another would say that "Calvery Chapel" SUCKS !!!! :confused: It just goes to show how discerning we must be when choosing a church to attend and support ;)

WELCOME to the confusion Doug :D ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Love Jerry

krm772

10-13-2006, 07:05 PM

Never had a good situation in any Calvary Chapel. My wife and I were painted as troublemakers for disagreeing with the senior pastor on even the smallest level. Seems to be a common problem in many of them (but apparently not all, as some have said).

They teach that the senior pastor is to be "like Moses". But that is an unbiblical doctrine, as Moses was a picture biblically of JESUS, not a picture of a church pastor. So there's some serious authoritarianism going on there, on a very spiritually dangerous and often abusive level.

Doctrine on that point is the breakdown in the Calvary Chapels (but again not all, if you can find a pastor of one that doesn't think his word is the final word on all things).

ex-shep

10-14-2006, 08:41 AM

[QUOTE=douglaslewis777;39609]Interesting! I left a very abusive church to go to a Calvary Chapel. The Calvary I am attending seems to be a source of healing for ex abused Christians!

I can see that. The church is go to is part of an association which has fellowships which range from highly reccomend to head for the hills. I can see why some members of the anti-cult movement must I have thought I lost my marbles.

I do remember former Calvary members in the east. It was not nice. There is a station owned by Calvarys in the area. I have listened to sermons from churches accross the country. It took me some time to smarten up to where the services were coming from. Some broadcasts were thought provoking. Others had alarm bells going off. So I can understand the differences of perspective.

ex-shep

10-14-2006, 08:46 AM

beginagainrose

10-14-2006, 03:56 PM

My church split as an ultimate result from the abuse against my husband and I. A large portion of those condoning what was done to us as well as many who participated left to attend the CC in our community...hmmm?... one other experience in Oregon was more with the pastor's wife not wanting us there after learning of our story and the surrounding controversy...not sure that was "CC" related... just a political wife... my ex-sister-in-law attends CC Costa Mesa... has "ol"Chuck on a pretty high pedestal... not good no matter where you go.

ex-shep

10-14-2006, 08:58 PM

Well, I guess I can scratch that church off my list :(

douglaslewis777

10-15-2006, 06:56 AM

I hear what everyone is saying & to me it's shocking somewhat, but I am not surprised.

See, I was in leadership in a truly horrible church. The abuse was almost unmentionable. For the life of me I don't see how the "pastors" can stand their own selves.

Anyway, maybe the pastor we have at Calvary is a little young and nieve about how the other Calvaries have operated. ...having been in an extremely abuse laden environmen you become ULTRA sensitive to any sign of wackiness (As many of you can relate).

I must say though, I am sorta shocked to hear this information. I don't ever think I'll ever get over being leary of churches now, but now I'll have to keep my eyes a little more peeled.

It's strange, because after coming out of abuse, you tend to evaluate a church a little more & I kid you not, every Sunday that I go, I'm waiting for the pastor to get crazy. He never has. As a matter of fact, he went to my old church to see what the members were talking about (The abuse) and he came back and preached about the arrogance and blatent stupidity of ministries that operate like tyrants. Our new pastor is so approachable that it is unreal. (night & day) We actually had a little cry session once and they appologized for the sins of some of these pastors. (Which they didn't have to do).

I believe maybe because he was once abused by churchdom he may have a unique position. He seems to be a little younger and maybe this has something to do with it. I wonder if its just that now the abused realize that the churches have been wrong and finally someone has the guts to do things differently.

Yes, I was abused, but now I'm getting over it. I think church folks are getting tired of the garbage coming out of some of these high and mighty nuts. I always thought this pastor was a little different and refreshing. Maybe there is more to him & his wife than I even thought. Beleive me, I will walk out of the door swiftly if I get even a wiff of some dumb stuff. If I sound a little raw, well, I guess being betrayed will make you that way.

artwalker

10-23-2006, 06:40 PM

I have only wet to the church one time I was not overwhelmed with the pastors talk so I have not went back however I am going through a very difficult time with a split up with my fiancée he is stalking me every night he is on meth and on my roof spying on my every move I could not even live in my home for 8 weeks this has been going on for 3 months with the police trying to get him in the act I am under full security living in fear and the Calvary chapel has taken him in they are giving him a place to live and paying him to work the whole time he is stalking me when I told them they make it to be my fault (even thought I have at this time 3 protective court orders) like I am the criminal and he is just needing them to save him when they are in fact enabling him to keep breaking the law:I just can not believe the whole thing and nether can my domestic violence counselor who is a pastors wife also.

butterfly

10-23-2006, 08:29 PM

Welcome Artwalker,
Grrrrrrrr church people protecting the abuseres and blaming the woman.

I have seen this thing happen to often where I live. I have friends who have gone thru this same thing.

I hope he will get caught soon not hurting you . Hmmmmm maybe he will fall off the roof break his leg and can"t run. So he will be an easy arrest. For the police I mean.

May GOd protect you I understand what you are going thru somewhat because of my friends being abused. butterfly shirley

Carmen

10-24-2006, 01:40 AM

((((Artwalker)))), Welcome, you have my sympathy. I am currently in a relationship where something like that could happen. I was researching control methods in religious groups when I read Patricia Evans' book, "Controlling People". She described the control situation that I live in at home. Intuitively I knew something was wrong, but not exactly what. She explains that the Controller has constructed a pretend person that he then anchors in a real person, often the spouse (or fianceè). My biblical counselor had also brought me to think in this direction, before I read the book. He did say that what I am going through is abuse. I was not totally conscious of it, having grown up with an alcoholic at home. The abuse in the current relationship started slowly and insidiously, after the birth of the children. I wondered why it was happening, the person does not drink or use any drugs. He was not like this before, but was nice and seemed caring.

Usually the signs of control show up after the Controller is sure that he has secured someone and anchored the pretend person in the real one. The real personality of the Controller comes out after a triggering event like engagement, marriage, the arrival of children or loss of a job. Signs of independence and self-reliance on the part of the controlled person may temporarily "break the spell" the Controller is under, but then they use more control to keep their pretend person anchored in the real one. Stalking may be one of those methods, the author explains. Violence and in extreme cases murder are also possible reactions to signs of independence in the controlled. Controller/Controlled relationships in marriage is one of her primary examples.

One major aspect is that the Controller does not really know what he is doing. He is detached from himself in some way - and attached to the pretend person (anchored in the real one). The Controller sees the Controlled as an integral part of himself - which should think and do as he does. The author says that even with psychotherapy it is often very hard for the Controller to realize that he is hurting someone else. And even then the Controller cannot always change his behavior, even with the help of a professional.

I'd be out of this relationship already (no physical violence although it has been threatened, but verbal abuse), but am tying up loose ends first. Moving would be going back over the ocean, and not just to the next town. While tying up loose ends, I am giving the controller the chance to go to a psychologist. If he doesn't by the time I am finished tying up the loose ends, then I will go, quickly. In your case I'd move very quickly - stalking is already a more extreme reaction. I'd encourage you to read up about this phenomenon. Ask your counselor for literature. Just my opinion.

douglaslewis777

10-24-2006, 05:51 AM

...not trying to be funny b/c I have been in an abusive church for over 12 years.

However, this sounds more like there is an abusive member using the church & not vice versa. You know I've become very sensitive to where abuse comes from.

I am truly sorry that this person is stalking you. I'd be a little more apt to say it was the church if it was the pastor doing this to you. Again, it somewhat appears that this stalker is using the church. In my mind I have to separate the crazy actions of church people from the church leadership.

The abuse I experienced was clearly coming from the top. The entire administration was corrupt & dogmattic. It sounds a little like the church is being used in this case... for it's outreach to those that are hurting. It's as if the church's help is enabling someone. This is like blaming a shelter for giving a killer a place to live.

I'm curious if the church knows that he is doing this? Again, being abused myself, I am very sensitive to abusive situations. My concern is that we blame the church for everything. Maybe I just don't know any better, but I have to believe that there are some good churches somewhere.

If the church is knowingly helping him to stalk you for church purposes and to get you back into church or pressure you to "serve" God, then that is a different matter. They would be wrong & need to stop the insanity. If it's a boyfriend that is trying to get you to be with him and wants to control you, then the boyfriend needs to stop the madness.

Sister, NO ONE should abuse anyone! Your fiend that is stalking you is insane whether he is using the church or the church is using him. It is my experience that people abuse those that they feel will allow them to. This may be a little cold & I'm not a counselor, but stop letting him abuse you by any means necessary. When you decide that you will NOT allow ANYONE to abuse you, then things will change. When you make that decision, you will gain whatever you need to to make this happen. This choice is one that was critical for me. I don't care who you are (pastor, member, or whoever) I will not accept abuse in my life. That's when the bleeding stopped & healing began. He is just an overgrown bully.

When I was a kid YES there were bullies. But, the bullies knew that if they messed with me physically, they would have a problem. They may win, but I guaranteed that they would leave wounded. They KNEW that I would fight back. That's why they didn't try it. Church was a little different for me because it is so deceptive and is a battle in the mind. My church took advantage of my belief in God and twisted it for it's own welfare. More specifically, my pastor now lives in a 1.5 million dollar house & drives a helicopter from one church to another. They used my sincerity for personal ambition which I don't agree. In the definition of abuse, it clearly was self serving activity. The dogmattic control and fear used to manipulate people is terrible. What makes it so bad is that they do their best to hide it or ignore it. It is sin of the worst kind.

I love ya' sister, but there is a such thing as tough love. Be tough with yourself & with the abuser. Don't accept it anymore. Do not.

yeshua'smags

10-24-2006, 06:41 AM

Very interesting that Doug would resurrect this thread ,,,,and insodoing make an extremely valid point.........Unlike mainstream churches of Oh say even just 25 years ago,,,,,,,,there are few if any churches (even mainstream) that follow a uniform "Doctrine" and "Doctrine" is very much dependent upon "The Pastor" and the extent of his influence over a particular Church body.Consequently it is not surprising that one would have a spiritually satisfying experience at one "CALVARY CHAPEL",,,,,and another would say that "Calvery Chapel" SUCKS !!!! :confused: It just goes to show how discerning we must be when choosing a church to attend and support ;)

This is so freakin true! We left the methodist church badly beaten and bruised. But as much as I'd like to wage war against the whole denomination, some here have been comforted by them.
Now we go to a Four Square Church. It is the most wonderful place! But I know someone on here that was hurt by them as well. As a matter of fact, the preacher that was there before our present one was abusive himself. As soon as he left the whole atmosphere changed!
I think it totally depends on the preacher and the people he lets be in charge, on boards, etc.

((((((Big hugs Artwalker!!!!)))))) I;m so sorry for what you are going through and that a church has made you feel like this! We will be praying for you!;)

juliob

10-27-2006, 06:34 AM

I have only attended Calvary Chapels a few times, but have had dealings with them through my ex-husband. He left me and my four children after 20 years of marriage, during which we were all physically, verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abused. After he left us, he inherited millions of dollars, and still refuses to help the children. He hasn't worked since. He does pay a minimal amount of child support, but courts don't look at inheritance as income, only the dividends (not interest) and since he doesn't work, too bad for us. He started attending Calvary Chapel because he decided he wanted to become a pastor and they were the only ones who would take him with no recommendations from friends or past pastors. He attended two semesters of their Bible College and is now in Oklahoma starting his own church. I have spoken to his pastor here, told him our story-we had an unbiblical divorce, he went on to date and sleep with many women he met at church, at the same time coming to me for sex. I did my best to reconcile with him, but he would not give up his other women (he also cheated during the marriage) until I would promise to remarry him within a week. I would not do so-asked him to attend Christian counselling to address the abuse and he would refuse. The last time he asked me to marry him, a year and a half ago, I said not without counselling, and he married another woman a week later after asking a third the night before. That marriage lasted a year, during which time he filed twice for divorce. A month after the second divorce was final, he married another woman whom he just met at Calvary Chapel-my kids had no idea until she showed up on their planned vacation to scuba dive to Mexico two weeks later-had never met her. They told the kids God told them to marry and they were moving to Oklahoma to start a church. That is where they are now. When I spoke to the Calvary pastor here a year and a half ago, he told my ex he was sorry his ex was mentally ill and made him a deacon. Then he offered to testify at our child support hearing, saying that I said things that I never said. I ended up settling out of court because I couldn't fight them-I have no money. I feel like Calvary Chapel has helped to create a monster-he feels invincible and they in no way hold him accountable for anything. My children and I have offered over and over to meet with my ex and his pastor, but they refuse. Calvary Chapel is the perfect setting for him-he can do and say whatever he wants-he skews Bible passages and mistranslates them to judge other people, at the same time saying noone has the right to judge him because God chose him and he is covered by Grace.He is big on Grace-for himself anyway.After he divorced his second wife, he had to pay her $10,000 alimony(more than I have ever received from him,even totalling all child support over the past 4 years), so he sent it in $500 increments encased in 6 pound boxes of horse manure. That is the kind of man this Calvary pastor is, and they think he is wonderful.

douglaslewis777

10-27-2006, 07:27 AM

Not to beat a dead horse but I'll requote some stuff...

Similar situation. Replace stalker with ex husband jerk.

However, this sounds more like there is an abusive member using the church & not vice versa. You know I've become very sensitive to where abuse comes from.

I am truly sorry that this person is stalking you. I'd be a little more apt to say it was the church if it was the pastor doing this to you. Again, it somewhat appears that this stalker is using the church. In my mind I have to separate the crazy actions of church people from the church leadership.

The abuse I experienced was clearly coming from the top. The entire administration was corrupt & dogmattic. It sounds a little like the church is being used in this case... for it's outreach to those that are hurting. It's as if the church's help is enabling someone. This is like blaming a shelter for giving a killer a place to live.

I'm curious if the church knows that he is doing this? Again, being abused myself, I am very sensitive to abusive situations. My concern is that we blame the church for everything. Maybe I just don't know any better, but I have to believe that there are some good churches somewhere.

If the church is knowingly helping him to stalk you for church purposes and to get you back into church or pressure you to "serve" God, then that is a different matter. They would be wrong & need to stop the insanity. If it's a boyfriend that is trying to get you to be with him and wants to control you, then the boyfriend needs to stop the madness.

I feel your pain, but this person (your ex) pulling the wool over the church's eyes. We can't blame Jesus for what Judas did. Not all Calvaries are the same. I hope the church realizes that this is a bad guy. I'd normally agree with you and say all Calvaries are bad places. I also could say "all" churches are bad because I've experienced some bad ones. But I truly can't. There are some good ones thank God.

As for your ex guy friend... you don't need friends / relationships like him. Let him go & forget about it. He did you wrong & now he's rich & doing you wrong. I'd get what you can from child support & move on. My mom had a child by another dude. He didn't want to help & she decided that neither did she (want his help). She married a wonderful guy (My dad) that took care of us all. My sister has never known any other father than mine & never missed a beat. This may be hard to accept, but count your losses & move on. That is probably some good advice that you may not want to hear. You may not like me for saying that, but sometimes the best things for us are not easy.

I try to live by the serenity prayer...

"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
courage to change the things we can,
and wisdom to know the difference."

I know spiritual abuse & I have to ask myself is the church abusing me or am I dealing with an abusive person in the church. There is a difference... The later I can deal with because I have NO obligation to him. On the other hand , the pastor causing abuse for control & manipulation is a different matter. One is a matter of leadership, the other is just a member trying to get by the system.

Julio, I feel your pain and I am sensitive to that, but your ex is a zero in my book. It's probably hard after 20 years of marriage. (I know it is) The pain has got to be very very deep. But let's just deal with that. You have been abused by your ex & he seems to now be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Much love to you sister & I hope you get over this. It may take a while. There is no way I know what you are going through. I do know about abuse though & I do know that the quickest way to get something fixed is to pinpoint the problem. Your husband is a jerk. Once he cheated he should have been gone. No questions asked.

Jo Jo

10-27-2006, 02:02 PM

yeshua'smags wrote:
This is so freakin true! We left the methodist church badly beaten and bruised. But as much as I'd like to wage war against the whole denomination, some here have been comforted by them.
Now we go to a Four Square Church. It is the most wonderful place! But I know someone on here that was hurt by them as well. As a matter of fact, the preacher that was there before our present one was abusive himself. As soon as he left the whole atmosphere changed!
I think it totally depends on the preacher and the people he lets be in charge, on boards, etc.

Yes, :) We left the Foursquare church because of the problems there. They let a sect in that split this particular congregation. But my earlier experiences with them and the other pastor was really positive. Because of that I couldn't say that the whole denomination was bad. Like in all cases I would just be heads up on it.

Right now the church we are going to has been a total relief and healing for us. But I have heard bad things said about the denomination here, too. That is why I haven't shared what that denomination is. (he he) But we have our eye on things. We are about to loose the interim pastor and get the permanent pastor. If things change for the worse there, we will leave. I think it is a good idea to carefully listen to warnings, but take each situation for what it is, unless it is a totally blanket denomination with rampant problems.

Carmen

10-28-2006, 02:28 AM

I have only attended Calvary Chapels a few times, but have had dealings with them through my ex-husband. He left me and my four children after 20 years of marriage, during which we were all physically, verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abused. ...........After he divorced his second wife, he had to pay her $10,000 alimony(more than I have ever received from him,even totalling all child support over the past 4 years), so he sent it in $500 increments encased in 6 pound boxes of horse manure. That is the kind of man this Calvary pastor is, and they think he is wonderful.
Welcome juliob. :) So sorry to hear about what happened. Horse manure! What a real jerk! That is one I have not heard before. He sure doesn't extend grace to people other than himself, can't even send that little bit of money in a graceful way. Ugh.

juliob

10-28-2006, 07:31 AM

Not to beat a dead horse but I'll requote some stuff...

Similar situation. Replace stalker with ex husband jerk.

I feel your pain, but this person (your ex) pulling the wool over the church's eyes. We can't blame Jesus for what Judas did. Not all Calvaries are the same. I hope the church realizes that this is a bad guy. I'd normally agree with you and say all Calvaries are bad places. I also could say "all" churches are bad because I've experienced some bad ones. But I truly can't. There are some good ones thank God.

As for your ex guy friend... you don't need friends / relationships like him. Let him go & forget about it. He did you wrong & now he's rich & doing you wrong. I'd get what you can from child support & move on. My mom had a child by another dude. He didn't want to help & she decided that neither did she (want his help). She married a wonderful guy (My dad) that took care of us all. My sister has never known any other father than mine & never missed a beat. This may be hard to accept, but count your losses & move on. That is probably some good advice that you may not want to hear. You may not like me for saying that, but sometimes the best things for us are not easy.

I try to live by the serenity prayer...

"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
courage to change the things we can,
and wisdom to know the difference."

I know spiritual abuse & I have to ask myself is the church abusing me or am I dealing with an abusive person in the church. There is a difference... The later I can deal with because I have NO obligation to him. On the other hand , the pastor causing abuse for control & manipulation is a different matter. One is a matter of leadership, the other is just a member trying to get by the system.

Julio, I feel your pain and I am sensitive to that, but your ex is a zero in my book. It's probably hard after 20 years of marriage. (I know it is) The pain has got to be very very deep. But let's just deal with that. You have been abused by your ex & he seems to now be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Much love to you sister & I hope you get over this. It may take a while. There is no way I know what you are going through. I do know about abuse though & I do know that the quickest way to get something fixed is to pinpoint the problem. Your husband is a jerk. Once he cheated he should have been gone. No questions asked.

juliob

10-28-2006, 07:43 AM

I am new to this, so please bear with me. I think the main point of what I was trying to say is that, unlike most other mainstream churches, Calvary Chapel has very few requirements of their pastors, other than that they attend Calvary Chapel's Bible College, which consists of listening to a bunch of tapes by Chuck Smith.My ex didn't even complete the classes because the place he was attending couldn't keep teachers. The teachers themselves have very few requirements-they asked my ex to lead the Bible College he was attending and to teach a class there after one semester. He had no previous experience, and never even took one college course. They have no screening process-anyone could become a Calvary pastor as long as they give good testimony and spend a lot of time at the Calvary Chapel they attend-my ex was there for a while every day. It doesn't matter if that person goes home and beats their wife and kids every day, or sleeps around, etc.-they don't want to hear about it if they are serving the Calvary Chapel in a good way, especially if the wife and kids don't attend Calvary Chapel.
It seems that they in no way hold their pastors accountable for what they do-that becomes the perfect position for a narcissist such as my ex. It can also be a very dangerous position.

Jerry

10-28-2006, 09:28 AM

They have no screening process-anyone could become a Calvary pastor as long as they give good testimony and spend a lot of time at the Calvary Chapel they attend-my ex was there for a while every day. It doesn't matter if that person goes home and beats their wife and kids every day, or sleeps around, etc.-they don't want to hear about it if they are serving the Calvary Chapel in a good way, especially if the wife and kids don't attend Calvary Chapel.
It seems that they in no way hold their pastors accountable for what they do-that becomes the perfect position for a narcissist such as my ex. It can also be a very dangerous position.

Dear juliob,,,,,
You point out what is amazing to me about newer denominations.I just don't believe God would choose a bunch of uneducated ninny's to be spiritual leaders of his children,,,,,it just doesn't make sense. These morons claim an anointing and I believe them,I just question the source of that anointing.
Love Jerry

ex-shep

10-28-2006, 12:10 PM

Well, I guess I can scratch that church off my list :(

Glancing at the other posts, I can see why. The lack of education in Tammy's group concerns me too. I can see myself in a lay leadership position. Anything evangelistic or pastoral, I would want the seminary degree. No exceptions. I want the training.

juliob

10-28-2006, 05:08 PM

Dear ex-shep,

It is no accident that the Bible is very clear on qualifications for pastors, deacons and elders. In 1Timothy, Paul instructs Timothy on what overseers' qualifications should be "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife,temperate,self-controlled,respectable, hospitable,able to teach, not given to drunkenness,not violent but gentle,not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect." (1Timothy 3:2-5) It goes on to say that "he must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap."

In our church, elders and deacons have to go through a very extensive process before being chosen. That is not to say they are judged, but if they have some area of their life, such as their family life, that needs attention, they are lovingly told that they need to take care of that area first. I will go back to the example of my ex-husband-while he is spending so much time serving Calvary, his children are going without a lot, mainly a father they can emulate and respect.

I think that one of the biggest differences between churches such as Calvary Chapel and a lot of mainstream, non cult-like churches, is in what the church is centered around. Calvary Chapel seems to be centered around one person-Chuck Smith. If there were no Chuck Smith, would there be a Calvary church or philosophy? Everything is channelled through one person, Chuck Smith. Each individual church is a mini scenario of this-everything is filtered through the main pastor, including all of the lessons, which seem to be simply repeats of packaged lessons from Chuck Smith's Bible College. This is very similar to other well-known cults-for example, Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy, Mormonism and Joseph Smith. The people follow the beliefs of one person, everything is structured around what that person has written and taught. Without that person, that sect would not exist. That is not Christianity-We should follow the Truth, the Bible, the Written Word, and not someone's interpretation of it.

krm772

10-28-2006, 08:16 PM

If there were no Chuck Smith, would there be a Calvary church or philosophy? Everything is channelled through one person, Chuck Smith. Each individual church is a mini scenario of this-everything is filtered through the main pastor, including all of the lessons, which seem to be simply repeats of packaged lessons from Chuck Smith's Bible College. This is very similar to other well-known cults-for example, Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy, Mormonism and Joseph Smith. The people follow the beliefs of one person, everything is structured around what that person has written and taught. Without that person, that sect would not exist. That is not Christianity-We should follow the Truth, the Bible, the Written Word, and not someone's interpretation of it.

Very well put. I love Christianity that is centered around Jesus Christ. That sounds like it should be a no-brainer, but the truth of the matter is how often these systems become so focused on one man other than Jesus. It's no longer "Jesus said...", but it becomes "Chuck said..." and that's the situation I don't want to be in.

Carmen

10-29-2006, 03:41 AM

Sounds like what Paul was trying to work against, the "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," game. There is nothing new under the sun. It just gets packaged differently from time to time.

juliob

10-29-2006, 09:12 AM

In looking at my previous postings, it occurred to me that it could appear that I am blaming Calvary Chapel for my ex-husband's sins and abuses. I am not-he would be who he is no matter where he attended. I am simply pointing out that because of the structure of Calvary Chapel, it is very easy for him to slip through the cracks and become a leader or pastor and lead a lot of people the wrong way. He is very charismatic and good at talking the talk. He can also be very convincing, even when telling an untruth-I was fooled a lot for almost twenty years, even when the evidence was in my face.

I know there are people out there who attend Calvary Chapels who have not had bad experiences. There are probably a lot of Calvary Chapels that are run by incredible pastors who listen to their leaders and congregation and try to live the life they preach about from the pulpit. But if the wrong person gets a position of leadership, especially in a church setting which influences peoples' lives in so many ways, it can become dangerous.

This website is all about Christian Recovery. I recommend a very good book by Lundy Bancroft called "How Could He Do That?, Inside the Minds of Controlling and Angry Men." Even though it mainly addresses one-on-one abusive relationships, it could be applied to spiritual abuse as well, and it addresses many issues, such as why do we stay and how do we recover.

douglaslewis777

10-31-2006, 05:40 AM

I tried my best not to comment on this... But... I did some research on Chuck Smith.

Granted there are those that like him & those that do not.
I'll make a quick point here. We can not demonize the founder because he is a founder. This happens to Bill Gates a lot & I guess this goes with the territory. While were at it let's blame the Iraq war on John Hancock or George Washington. I guess "someone" HAS to start a church. In fact there are quite a many church founders. Chuck is probably demonized because he has not been selfish with his ministry in that he helped others to get started also.

A litlte history:
Chuck Smith started the 1st Calvary. The Calvary Church is the middle ground between Pentecost (With strict Church Government) and the Baptist (With not so many guidelines).
When Chuck started "his" Calvary people flocked to it because it was NOT controlling. The whole "Idea" if you could call it that was to have a place that "everyone" could attend. This was in the middle of the hippy movement in the 60-70's. So..... the hippies finally could come to church. When they did, it started a HUGE movement where Christ was spread everywhere. (Thus there are a lot of calvary churches) The entire idea was that it not get wacky like some of the other "denominations" had. Thus "no" denimination was declared. So... people imply that there is some sort of Calvary denomination. When in actuallity there isn't one per se.

Calvary is not a denomination it's just that they have been able to plant quite a few churches (700) because they support spreading the Gospel & don't claim to have any patent on being a pastor. (Incidently, this is exactly why many churches don't spread - because the pastor doesn't want any competition). It takes a lot to help another pastor to get started. Is this not what the church should do? Maybe there is a reason the churches have spreaded so broadly that people think it's its own denomination. It's just that they cary the Church's original name.

The teachings steared away from private interpretations & one of the guidelines is that they do not do this. Side note: I guess this is what is meant by Chuck dictating what the churches can do. I'll continue. All Calvary affiliates "MUST" read the scripture word for word, book after book.... litterally. So, you don't have private interpretations we actually "read" the bible every week. The week after that, the next chapter is read & so on. How much closer to understanding what is taught can you get ? Just a question.

What I've experienced in these churches is just the opposite of what most of us would call abuse. There is true freedom. So much that it's almost scary. BUT... isn't that what Jesus wanted? For us to freely come & not judge one another? Interesting. Even though there are pastors there, they are just a gift and is not held higher in authority than anyone else in the church. The WHOLE idea that is supposed to be promoted is that we are all EQUAL in the church. That is the way most Calvaries are set up. So, to be a pastor is not some MIGHTY office in these churches with a lot of influence. At least that's what the guidelines regulate. So... if you go to a Calvary, much of the time you can't tell who the pastor is until he starts speaking. Because they blend in with the other members as such.

Speaking of Guidelines... it states in their guidelines that "SOME" Calvary churches may not adhere to their principles. But should not reflect what they stand for.

Also speaking of guidelines: Do we really want NO guidelines. Anarchy? In the church? Is this what the bible teaches when it says things should be done decently and in order? I think not. It's not that guidelines are bad, it's unclear and unfair guidelines that create tyrants. So... is there a governing board along with Chuck that keeps things from getting out of hand (Like so many churches we know)? Yes thank God. But... when going through the guidelines they are in no way negative. The guidelines make certain that in most cases churches remain open to all and that the pastors power doesn't get out of control. I'll say this again... does it happen regardless of the guidelines...yes.

Also.... I'll say this also because it is a forum & I can. We have to be very carefull about creating absolutes where there are unknowns. Some folks make a convincing argument that ALL churches of a similar nature are bad. If a certain group is 100% this way then I could agree with that, but a balanced view is necessary in most of our churches. All can be dangerous. If I agreed with this philosophy based on a few experiences I'd have to say:

All black's are criminals, lazy, & should be slaves
All whites are racist, arrogant, dishonest, sneaky, & greedy
All hispanics are illegal aliens, dirty, & lazy
All indians run casino's and are push over's
All Chinese know kungfu, know math, & can't have unique Idea.

See... this is the problem with ALL. If one is not like that, the ALL is not true because ALL assumes 100% and 99.99999% is not ALL.

This is the stuff that abuse is founded upon. It's almost true, but not exactly true. This is dangerous. My concern is that we don't take on the very ideals that some abusive church leadership does. And that is to take an unknown and make it an absolute when in actuallity we don't know what the truth is because we haven't done the necessary work.

...My 2 cents. I tried my best to not get involved with this thread, but my consious kept jerking at me. Believe me I do hear what everyone is saying & I do understand that any church can get crazy regardless of the initial intentions. I'll say this again for myself, if I see it 1st hand myself, I'm gone. But, you have to forgive me, I'm a little leary of hear say now that I've been through what I've been through. I'm more of an investigative type of Christian. Considering the guidelines Calvary to me seems to be the lesser of most evils considering that there is no perfect church assembly.

calhoon4jesus

11-02-2006, 09:53 PM

This is my first time ever even being on something like this but I found this forum by accident and it seems like something that may help me and in turn maybe I can help others. My family has been horribly abused by two Calvary Chapel pastors in two different churches in our area. The first one basically forced us out of the frying pan and into the fire of the other local Calvary. The two pastors hated each other so in hindsight we can look back and see how pastor #2 totally played on our vulnerability because of the abuse of pastor #1. We were devastated and he became that loving shepherd that we thought didn't exist. He helped us to heal quickly from our abusive situation and 6 years later he abused us even worse. He is a liar, gossip, and slanderer. He has done it to many. Our problem is unique in that two of our sons married two of his daughters and he 'ex-communicated' us from his pulpit. It has been horrible. One of our sons that is married to his daughter is a pastor of a Calvary Chapel in Africa. When they were home having their first baby last year we had gone to the hospital to see them, (we weren't allowed to be at the hospital when the baby was born it was a crisis situation as the baby was premature and was in the hospital for 5 weeks) so when we finally were able to come a couple of days later we were going to take them out to dinner and were told by our son that they could not break bread with us. We were devastated. There is so much to tell it would take days.
The reason for the ex-communication was that we had a problem with a teaching this man had brought in and tried on several occasions to reason with him about it. He would have nothing to do with what we had to say so we told him we could no longer attend there. We had no idea that he would do what he did. He started a horrible slander campaigne against us. He then went on to accuse us of sowing discord and got his other leaders, which were all good friends of ours, (or so we thought) to try to convince my husband on several occasions to get up in front of the body and repent. We did not do it so we were not going to lie to cover for his slander. Because of that he had to make sure that no one from his church could have fellowship with us. They may hear the truth. We know that, they don'T. He is very good at lying and manipulating and everyone there believes him. We are totally shunned. It's been two and a half years and we are just beginning to pull out of the horrible bitterness and depression, emotional breakdowns and all the rest. Praise our Lord that God in His graciousness provided us a place of refuge. I don't know where we would be now if it wasn't for this safe place. Ironically it is the place where we were first abused but the old abusive pastor was no longer there. Finally those above him stepped in after 6 years and ousted him out of there and he can no longer call his church Calvary Chapel. He started another church about 30 minutes away in a rich town where he will make more money. God took him out and put in the youth pastor who my kids grew up under. He took out king Saul and put in a shepherd boy with a heart after Gods own heart. He and the other leaders suffered years under the abuse of the other pastor and this Calvary Chapel is an awesome place to be. I agree with douglaslewis777. They aren't all bad but unfortunately more are than aren't. That is the big weakness in Calvary Chapel. It's is too easy for wolves and hirelings to become pastors and because it's generally a good name because of the Word of God being the focus and worship these guys see it as an easy mark and way to make money or have power. Fortunately our pastor now understands what we have gone through and believes us. He is 39 now and we have known him since he first came as the youth pastor at 23. He is real and we pray for him daily to stay at the feet of Jesus. I am just so sorry for all of those who suffer at the hands of these decievers and have no where to go to have love, belief and healing. I have found that these men can make you think you are crazy and if there is no one there to validate that you are believable and that they believe you it would be very easy to go off of the deep end. Especially babies that haven't even learned to walk yet. The one thing that I would really like to encourage all who have experienced this, is that these are evil men placed in these positions of power by the enemy of our souls for just the purposes that he is accomplishing so much of the time-------to take us away from our savior. It's not Jesus' fault. Please don't blame Him. He hurts with us and weeps with us. And most importantly, He will use it, as hard as that seems to believe, to strengthen us. Our situation is only getting worse as more babies are born, (another due in February) birthdays, baby shower, we can't be invited to, etc. but our hearts are healing and Jesus is more real to me today that he ever was. We are mending and He is using us in ways we would have never been prepared to be used for without this training. We have learned so much about being judgmental and having compassion and wasting time. Time is short and we need to get about the Fathers business and not let the enemy render us useless by staying under our horrible circumstances. There is a lost world out there that needs to know Jesus and that is why we are here. Of course satan wants to keep us in pain, bitterness, agony and dispair. He doesn't want people to hear about our wonderful Savior, Jesus!! Don't let these men rip you off from proceding with your calling whatever that may be. God Bless you all.

ROCHELLE BROWN

11-02-2006, 10:41 PM

There is a lost world out there that needs to know Jesus and that is why we are here. Of course satan wants to keep us in pain, bitterness, agony and dispair. He doesn't want people to hear about our wonderful Savior, Jesus!! Don't let these men rip you off from proceding with your calling whatever that may be.
Amen!!! I see the Lord carrying you through this whole thing. Would'nt it be a horrible thing to go through all the pain in life without our Helper our Savior and our Father?
I am praying that your children will have wisdom.

Carmen

11-03-2006, 07:34 AM

Welcome, calhoon4Jesus. :) I'm so sorry that the teachings of Calvary Chapel are responsible for splitting your family. :( Unfortunately, some churches teach exclusivity, that they have the only truth and that others don't. It is such churches that shun others by "not eating with them". I think that is one of the most misused passages of the bible. I hope your sons come to their senses. If they would be willing to read a book, "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnalogar is a good one, it shows how certain bible passages have been twisted to divide and conquer people rather than unite them in faith.

calhoon4jesus

11-03-2006, 01:28 PM

Carmen and Rochelle, Thank you so much for your encouragement but I do want to clarify that This was not the teachings of Calvary Chapel in general that we have experienced. This was a man, wolf in sheeps clothing, that twisted the scriptures all on his own all for his own power trip. Like I said we are back in our old Calvary Chapel that we attended for 18 years before we left to attend this last one. I'm sorry Carmen that you had an experience that has turned you against the whole denomination, for lack of a better, word, but there are a few real pastors of Calvary Chapels out there and we are fortunate to have one of them. I do believe that they are few and far in between but I think it is the church in general that has these problem men pretending to be shepherds. There are men in the pulpits in all denominations that are in it for themselves. In our particular church that we attend now, our pastor and leaders are amongst us. They are sheep too and they know it. They know that their gifts are no greater than any of ours, just different. It is so refreshing after 24 years under hirelings. I don't know that if we were to move to another area, though, and had to find another church that it would be easy. At this point this pastor is the only one we trust and he earned it over the last 17 years. His reputation is unmarred and he, having been through the spiritual abuse himself as an assistant pastor, has learned what not to be as he has told us. The hard way but nevertheless it was needful for him in order to be the shepherd he is today. Believe me we are still struggling with trust issues with friends and pastors and probably always will but this I know, those men will stand before Jesus someday and give an account for what they have done to His sheep. I have just gotten to the point where I can pray for salvation for this man and mercy. It has taken 2 and a half years but I'm over that hump of hatred and wanting him dead. Oh such bitterness. Thank you two who responded also for your prayers for my family. My son in Africa has such a precious for the African people and has sacrificed much to be there with them. He's just in such a hard place being married to this mans daughter, whom I love very much, and that church fully supports them. He just hasn't seen through it yet but he will. Please pray he will before they come home in December for their furlough. If not that at least he will sit down with his family and hear the truth for the first time. It's hard to make right judgments on situations like ours if you aren't allowed to hear both sides of the story. Anyway God bless you all and thanks again. Calhoon4Jesus

douglaslewis777

11-03-2006, 01:42 PM

You know...
I'll be honest. I don't know if any denomination has very many "decent" pastors.

The fact of the matter is that it is simply far and between that you find a decent pastor anywhere. That is across the board.

Just my experience. When I was looking for a church it was very very difficult. I believe that about 90% of the churches are somewhat whacked out. Maybe there needs to be some better criteria for allowing people to start churches. The fact of the matter is that it seems like any ninny with an idea can just start up a church. Crazy really.:cool:

calhoon4jesus

11-03-2006, 04:42 PM

You are so right douglaslewis777. It's a heart condition not a denomination condition. There are wrong motives and there are right motives. It's just that we have seen very few with pure motives. That goes for the whole church, laity. How many 'real' Christians are there that love Jesus with all of their hearts and want nothing more than to serve Him? There's just a remnant and the Bible says that there will come the time when Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats and many will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not do all of these things in your name?" and He will say, "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." This is the sadest thing. So many that we sit in our churches with are not truly His but think they are. Just because they go to church, maybe do good deeds, and say that they are Christians. It's all about Jesus. They need to ask themselves, Is Jesus the passion of my existance or am I? Does He have my heart? That doesn't mean that everything you do is solely for Him because we have duties and obligations in this life but is it your hearts desire in all that you do you want to bring Him glory. Whether you always actually do it or not is it your desire? I know that I can be selfish and angry and bitter and even filled with hate for wicked people but I hate it when I act contrary to my Lord. I want to be like Him. That's my passion. I fall way short but it is the master passion of my heart. Is it yours? I just want all of you to know that you know you are His. Too many are going to pass into eternity 'thinking' they are His and find out too late that they weren't. And if you are then spend your life serving Him in whatever place He has you, school, workplace, moms at home, ministers, etc. He desires that we all shine Him to this dark world by the way we live our lives for Him and speak as He leads. God Bless you all in this Journey and as you follow our Jesus.

Carmen

11-04-2006, 01:00 AM

I'm sorry Carmen that you had an experience that has turned you against the whole denomination, for lack of a better, word, but there are a few real pastors of Calvary Chapels out there and we are fortunate to have one of them.
I was only speaking generally, I have no direct experience with your denomination. Your pastor sounds reasonable. It is too bad he had to suffer too.

calhoon4jesus

11-04-2006, 06:10 AM

Thanks for clarifying that Carmen. When you commented on it being a Calvary Chapel teaching that divided our family I just wanted to make sure that I didn't give the impression that I blame the whole denomination. Thanks also for recommending the book. I would like to get that for my whole family, as the teaching that pastor #2 brought into his church and continues to push on his congregants including my sons, is full of twisted scripture. What happened to us was really out of character for Calvary Chapels on the whole, they do not generally ex communicate people unless they are a wolf preying on the people, etc. When it does happen for wrong reasons, it's usually the pastor, who is getting people out because they have caught on to him and he wants them out and for others to stay away from them so they can't spread 'the truth' about him to anyone in his congregation. Looking back now we can see how this happened over and over to people. This particular church is basically a cult under the name of Calvary Chapel, that's why it's so dangerous. God Bless you.

christian sister

11-05-2006, 11:54 AM

I am going to one of the calvary chapel churches in my state.
I use to go years ago when it was first starting up,but after awhile I wanted to go somewere were I could see the gifts of the Holy spirit in action.
So I started going to a pentecostal church for 10 years and was spiritually abuse there and left it and am now back at calvery chapel.
I only go on sunday morings and so I cant really say if there is anything wrong going on, things seem ok. I just go for the service and leave right afterwards. Granted this calvery church has grown a lot in the last 10 years they have outgrown 3 church buildings in the last 10 years and I can see them having to find a even bigger church in the next couple of years.The pastor of this church is very well know in our state,and maybe even the country.But everyone I know that knows him( even from other denominations and churches) has good things to say about him.
I would like to think that your situation was a isolated situation and this is not what goes on at all calvery chapel churches.

calhoon4jesus

11-06-2006, 07:17 AM

It happens quite a bit in Calvarys just because these guys don't have accountability unless they want it. The first indicator of something being not right would be if their board of elders are mostly far away (pastors from other churches) or if you see a quick turnover of church leaders and they just kind of disappear one by one either with no explaination or they are said to be 'in sin' when they do disappear. Sometimes they will keep a lot of the same leaders but it will be obvious that they are 'yes' men. They are usually not very happy people and seem to be on edge most of the time. That's been my observation having gone through this abuse twice now. The pastor we have now is very accountable and so are all of the others. We have 7. And they are very happy, friendly and compassionate. So you just have to be careful. I would make an appointment with the pastor and ask questions about his board and accountability. God Bless you Christian Sister

islandgodzilla

01-16-2007, 08:33 PM

Hi ArmyMom;

Well, my wife and I left Calvary Chapel on what we thought to be a leading of God. We attended a local Calvary Chapel in our town for about 9 years. We taught Sunday School and VBS. I was part of the worship team, lead worship and even went on missionary trips.

After a while we sensed a leading to leave CC and help a small, new church in our neighborhood. When I informed my pastor of our decision, after much prayer, he responded in a manner that completely caught me off guard.

He asked if I was leaving the church due to some rumors or gossip I had heard. I was also told that he knew I was still in contact with a family that formerly attended CC and if they were influencing me. He then proceeded to tell me what had transpired between this family and CC which I thought was completely out of line.

It was bizarre. It was then I really it was time to leave. So, I quietly left, called some friends to inform them. My wife had contacted the Sunday School director who basically called us traitors, read off to her the Calvary Distinctives and informed her there were no other churches in the area that adhered to them.

To this day I still struggle with this. I keep telling myself that this was an isolated incident with a particular pastor and staff. Sorry if I rambled a bit, but I still am angry. I wanted to be able to be helpful, but feel only bitterness spill out. I apologize for this and hope that this does not effect others.

Hi, I am new to this forum. I'm hopiing to get in touch with anybody who had a tough time - or is right now - with Calvary Chapel.

My husband was an assistant pastor, I was the pastor's wife's prayer partner and helped her teach Bible studies. I was also a worship leader.

We left after becoming more and more concerned about how the pastor was dealing with the people, his leaders, the finances (no accountability even though there was a board - ignored them); and the Calvary Chapel philosophy of leadership- after going to pastors' retreats in Costa Mesa we realized that our church was not an aberration. I found the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and felt like the authors had been a fly on the wall in every room of our church!

In the end we were blacklisted among th CC churches in our state after leaving. When we'd try going to a different one, we were greeted with ice a week or two after showing up - after our former pastor found where we were, he called and painted us as troublemakers! After that we got the courage to leave the denomination completely. Recovery is tough, my husband still struggles a LOT.

We also left CC's main doctrines after I went to Fuller Seminary and studied Master's degree courses in Greek and Church history.

Blessings to All of You...:)

Carmen

01-17-2007, 01:57 AM

Islandgodzilla,

It is ok to feel anger and bitterness after something like that, it is perfectly normal. I still feel angry occasionally, and bitter. I wasn't involved with CC though, was SA'd in a Reformed setting.

yeshua'smags

01-17-2007, 05:20 AM

Your feelings are completely normal. Especially the isolated incident feelings. If it hadn't happened to us and my sister and her husband at our old church, I wouldn't have believed it either. It's all too Twilight Zone, especially when these people that you have known forever turn on you! They don't even want to hear your side!

You are very much in good company here! Hope we can help.....;) :)

Henry777

01-26-2007, 11:02 PM

I think more and more Calvary Chapels are realizing that people are not as naive as they used to be in the past. Before the internet was accessible to most people, those who have been victimized by Calvary Chapel leadership have kept their experience to themselves. Now the internet has empowered the victims to say to their abusers "you cannot silence us anymore and we will warn other people about you". Through blogs like this, victims are able to comfort each other and these abusers know that it won't be business as usual for them.

Abba's girl

03-07-2007, 01:47 PM

Hi all,
I am new to this forum. Just left a Calvary I was closely involved with for some time, and I was glad to come across this forum and thread. My impression, from my own experiences, is that you have to go to Calvary with both eyes open. When a pastor is "discovered", for instance, to have been involved in clear habitual sin, he is reprimanded, "repents", goes through a period of counselilng, then is allowed back to minister again. This is a great concern to me. They seem to be very, very lax in who they let be pastors. A person with a poor education is alright, as long as he talks well. A person with a poor track record of living morally after being "saved" is alright, as long as he talks well. It concerns me that their standards are so low for ministers. I mean, we are talking a person who has a lot of power over some really vulnerable people. I also have the distinct impression that there is very little toleration for challenging of the pastor in any way, even though the same pastor will claim that he is open to it. There appears to be very little dialogue in the church culture; just all top-down. I was not comfortable with all of this, so I left. It was very very painful, but I just could not stay. I believe there is something essentially unhealthy about the Calvary "chain". I think it is sin at the leadership lever; similar to the Catholic church, and it is based on some doctrine that is false. I also believe that sooner or later God will judge these people. If Calvary cannot get a handle on this, it will be like the Catholic church; they will be sued in secular courts. Which I am sure is already happening. Watch your kids and wives, watch your back, there's prowling wolves in the fold!

mary

03-07-2007, 02:48 PM

Hi, Abba's Girl,

Welcome to this forum!!!! :) :) :)

We're glad to have you. You're absolutely correct in your observations, of course...

I would hope and pray that what happened to the RCC (I was raised and educated in that "church") would happen to all false churches that are lax in the moral standards they set and countenance in their ministers. The one I was kicked out of was extremely lax and I do wish that somehow, it could be hauled before the civil authorities...

Again, welcome, and feel free to contribute and share as you feel you'd like...

In the love and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ,

mary

Carmen

03-08-2007, 01:11 AM

Welcome Abba's Girl. :)

I think it depends on the offence, but habitual sin, especially sexual sin is one of my pet peeves, because it is a sin that involves others and not just oneself. Especially if this concerns abuse, then I think that the person, if unrepentant or prone to commit the habitual sin again, should not be allowed to hold a position in a church. They wouldn't have enough self-control to serve as models of behavior and if prone to sin again (as with sexual offenders) I wouldn't be able to trust them in such a position or perhaps even trust them at all.

I'll discuss the rest in another thread, or this would probably get pretty far off topic.

Abba's girl

03-08-2007, 06:44 AM

Thank you for your replies all. Because there is so much emotional vulnerability involved, I would think churches would want to be very, very cautious in who they allow to be spiritual leaders. Calvary seems to take the grace doctrine so far, that they use that to justify having low standards in who they let pastor. I also have a real hard time with the anti-intellectual leanings of this group. There seems to be a culture there where serious biblical scholarship is ridiculed.

Elisabeth

03-08-2007, 09:54 AM

I think Calvary hides behind the fact that they are not "really a denomination." Therefore, they don't really have any standards for who they let at the pulpit. :( If I remember right, they also do not have membership. The Calvary Chapel here in Tucson has a good reputation, as does the pastor, but since Calvary is a loose knit group with no standards for who they let at the pulpit (or Bible Study leadership for that matter), you do have to take them at a church by church basis, or as someone else said, go in with your eyes open.

Carmen

03-08-2007, 11:00 AM

It seems they might be too lax concerning pastors. I was SA'd in a church that wouldn't let me in as a layman (laywoman, ahem)! I suppose I lacked enough spiritual maturity, it was a mature-Christians-only club. Likelier I wasn't easy enough to manipulate, so I didn't qualify. I hope there are some churches that are somewhere inbetween.

jane

03-08-2007, 01:24 PM

just want to add a comment for those who are new and don't know my whole story-

It was the calvary chapel pastor that basically robbed us.

He didn't take a stipened from the church we were told...something about Paul being a tentmaker to not be a burden to the church...we thought that was awesome coming from a spiritually abusive church of 9 years where we were "blessing" the pastor almost every month for some reason or another...

so, he lost his job. Told everyone that he was a cabinet maker.

We hired him. He showed us his license and insurance numbers.......we gave him the money; bought the supplies....funny thing; he heard from GOD:mad: and relocated to southern california without telling us or finishing the job.

We went to claim the insurance reimbursement- funny thing; (did he hear from God here as well) he wasn't insured when he did OUR WORK. The contract that we all signed was dated a month prior to his license and insurance!

Found out after that he had 2 men working for him that he NEVER paid (God must've told him not to).

ANYWAY, WHEN I HERE CALVARY CHAPEL; I THINK THEIVES.

Oh, and I didn't tell you about how when we visited; they didn't tell us that they were leaving and brought a new pastor from the south up here to Connecticut.

The pastor was sexist, racist and filthy--- what do I mean by filthy? Talking on the phone to me while taking a dump! (and I could hear it all!:mad: )
and then telling my husband that he wasn't going to speak to me any more to talk to his wife because I was just a woman........or I could talk to my husband who would talk to him- WHEN I WAS IN STANDING PRESENCE!

I could go on.......so we left that church....and it was after that the first pastor left with our money.

JUST WANTED YA'LL TO KNOW.

jane

Henry777

03-10-2007, 09:07 PM

With everything that Calvary Chapel as a movement has gone through and still is going through in the media, the different blogs, websites and message boards about them, they are crying foul when it is no different from what Calvary Chapels have been doing for decades which is expose error in other churches. They spoke against the Faith Movement, the Purpose Driven Life Movement, seeker-sensitive churches, and the emergent churches just to name a few. Not only did their leaders do not have a problem with that, it was even encouraged.

But now that serious problems are being exposed by people from their own movement, their common response is “there is no perfect church” or “we’re not perfect just forgiven”. They have one set of standards for themselves and another one for everybody else. One of the things I learned from the last two CCs I was apart of is that you can be a pastor with no integrity and low moral character. As long as the pastor is a good teacher of the Bible, the church will grow. They portray themselves as loving shepherds when they are really hirelings or worst wolves in sheep’s clothing. Of course not all of them are that way. My point is that size doesn’t make a church good or bad.

I think Judas is the best example of someone who has never had a true personal relationship with Christ and was even called the Son of Perdition. And yet many believed in Christ when he and the other apostles were commanded to travel in twos when preaching the gospel. Which means the power is not in the person but rather in the message of the gospel.

Abba's girl

03-11-2007, 05:15 PM

Personally, I think they should clean house and start all over. I have noticed they definitely teach that once you are called as a pastor, no matter what sin you commit while in the ministry, you always have that gift and need to return to it; it is considered a permanent "calling".

Carmen

03-13-2007, 07:22 AM

what do I mean by filthy? Talking on the phone to me while taking a dump! (and I could hear it all!:mad: )
You do have my sympathy Jane, but I admit that I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that one. :eek: I had to laugh a little. :o I know it would be shocking on the phone, but I'd be torn between laughing the guy off or cursing him for being obscene. :mad: :D :confused: And this from a pastor. :mad:

mary

03-13-2007, 10:18 AM

Ditto to what Carmen said, Jane. Except that I'm more appalled, sickened and beyond disgusted at this "person" and the incident you recounted. What an absolute PIG.

Does it get much worse than that??? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

mary

jane

03-14-2007, 03:51 PM

Does it get much worse than that???

well, yeah, actually it did :o

The new pastor and his wife (the one that took the dump)....well, they were also very racist...did I write that already?

The current pastor (the one who stole our money without finishing the cabinets) was a white man, married to an american mexican. They didn't have children.

The new pastor and his wife, sat at my table, as serious as could be and said, "well, they can't have children, you know why, right?"

Dumb gulible me, I asked "why ?" :confused: :confused:

She said, "because God doesn't like the race thing- her being mexican you know, it just isn't right."

I actually had to ask, "you mean, because he's white and she's mexican; they can't have kids??"

She said, "yes, that's really really bad in God's eyes."

I had to leave the room. That kind of blatant racism isn't around where I live. I was shocked. Mortified. Then wondering how they can be serving the same loving Jesus that I do.....then realized how freaking ignorant they are....all the inter racial children that God blesses on couples EVERYWHERE...their own logic was so freaking flawed....they were insane.

I told her that racism wasn't going to fly around here....that in fact they might be looking at some HATE CRIME charges if they kept talking like that. She thought she was being safe by only talking to white people. "mam," I said, "it is the white people who are going to turn you in.....we don't go there around here... ESPECIALLY IN CHRIST! "

anyway, there were a lot of other things too.....That is why I refused to go and my husband went to church by himself. I never thought I'd see the day that I would be a wife sitting home with the kids (wouldn't allow them to go to that crap)...while my husband attended church.

I used to ponder at the husbands in church without wives....how weird I used to think.

Now I have learned- those were men with intelligent wives :D

jane

mary

03-14-2007, 06:10 PM

Oh my! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

What horrible people! They were really born too late and in the wrong place, weren't they? They would have fit in quite nicely in the Third Reich.

And am I mistaken or did this happen in the North? Where I live, nobody would get away with comments like those. I've never heard anything like that and I sure hope I never do.

Awful, Jane, just awful...

I love your final comment, of course: you are absolutely correct about those intelligent wives!!! :D :D :D :D :D

mary

Elisabeth

03-14-2007, 06:43 PM

Elisabeth

03-14-2007, 06:53 PM

well, yeah, actually it did :o

The new pastor and his wife (the one that took the dump)....well, they were also very racist...did I write that already?

The current pastor (the one who stole our money without finishing the cabinets) was a white man, married to an american mexican. They didn't have children.

The new pastor and his wife, sat at my table, as serious as could be and said, "well, they can't have children, you know why, right?"

Dumb gulible me, I asked "why ?" :confused: :confused:

She said, "because God doesn't like the race thing- her being mexican you know, it just isn't right."

I actually had to ask, "you mean, because he's white and she's mexican; they can't have kids??"

She said, "yes, that's really really bad in God's eyes."

I had to leave the room. That kind of blatant racism isn't around where I live. I was shocked. Mortified. Then wondering how they can be serving the same loving Jesus that I do.....then realized how freaking ignorant they are....all the inter racial children that God blesses on couples EVERYWHERE...their own logic was so freaking flawed....they were insane.

I told her that racism wasn't going to fly around here....that in fact they might be looking at some HATE CRIME charges if they kept talking like that. She thought she was being safe by only talking to white people. "mam," I said, "it is the white people who are going to turn you in.....we don't go there around here... ESPECIALLY IN CHRIST! "

anyway, there were a lot of other things too.....That is why I refused to go and my husband went to church by himself. I never thought I'd see the day that I would be a wife sitting home with the kids (wouldn't allow them to go to that crap)...while my husband attended church.

I used to ponder at the husbands in church without wives....how weird I used to think.

Now I have learned- those were men with intelligent wives :D

jane

I absolutely hate it when racists think that just because I'm white I share their views. :mad: That has happened a few times. I usually start telling them about my cousin Leah Aguilar and her half mexican, half native american husband Gil and their three boys, or about my uncle John and his Japanese wife Yoko and their son. :D

We live in an area of town that's about 70% hispanic. My step father in law said to me (in a tone of voice that conveyed the injustice of this) "How does it feel to be a minority?" I told him that we have the best Mexican food in the US down here. :p

Racism is something I have no tolerance for. And coming from a pastor, it's totally disgusting. :mad: (Worse than taking a dump while talking on the phone! I have never been able to understand these people who talk on the phone while in the stall in public restrooms! :eek: )

Carmen

03-15-2007, 10:27 AM

I usually start telling them about my cousin Leah Aguilar and her half mexican, half native american husband Gil and their three boys, or about my uncle John and his Japanese wife Yoko and their son. :D

LOL!

I definitely wouldn't get along with those people myself either. I'm already very mixed, and my kids are even more mixed. Makes for good genes. :cool: :rolleyes:

Other than that, I am of the opinion that racists have misunderstood the gospel completely. It is for all men, and God accepts those that believe it as his children - all of them. Dunno how racists explain this:

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God,who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:9,10.

Even Jesus' ancestor, Ruth, was a non-Jew, a foreigner. So what does that make him in their eyes? :mad:

jane

03-15-2007, 01:24 PM

Mary-

They came here from somewhere in the woods of the deep south, I forget where, my husband would know if I asked him. I live in Connecticut, New England....and yeah, you're right, here you could get into some serious legal trouble- especially in a leadership role like a pastor.

jane

Oh my! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

What horrible people! They were really born too late and in the wrong place, weren't they? They would have fit in quite nicely in the Third Reich.

And am I mistaken or did this happen in the North? Where I live, nobody would get away with comments like those. I've never heard anything like that and I sure hope I never do.

Awful, Jane, just awful...

I love your final comment, of course: you are absolutely correct about those intelligent wives!!! :D :D :D :D :D

mary

Elisabeth

03-15-2007, 01:29 PM

MrSulu

03-17-2007, 01:35 PM

The governmental structure of CC is a setup for power abuse and pride. A lot of young guys (too young) are raised up as pastors and there is no real accountabilty as the "board" and "elders" are friends and buddies of the pastor. Many,many times in Sunday morning sermons (which included visitors) the pastor told the folks in the pews "if you don't like how we do things here, there is the door" . The CC style of structure is that the pastor is Moses leading the sheeplings and although it is denied that the pastor is the main one who "hears" from God in all matters, actions speak volumes otherwise. I spent 15 years in the CC system and while I would not calll it a "cult" I would say that it has cultic tendencies. When people leave they are shunned and seen as those "who left fellowship" so they should not be "fellowshipped" with at all. CC pastors have been known to put the word to other CC pastors in town about people who left thier fellowship even if reasons were not for devisiveness. It certainly can cause paranoia (spelling) in one who leaves. You could have friends at church for 10 years and if you start going to another church (even another CC) you will be dropped and you will never hear from your "friends" again. Some "friends". You may viewed as one who God was sweeping out to clean that fellowship. There is no examining of attitudes or perhaps God trying to speak to leadership regarding said attitudes when people leave, they are simply viewed as dividers or even from the "enemy" if they leave. Sad.

Also it is strongly implied that CC is spiritually better then other churches , that they have better teaching of the Word thus are superior. It may never be straight out said but it is strongly implied and everyone I fellowshipped with believed it. That was drilled in my head for so many years I have struggled now as I seek another type church, I find myself continuing to compare them all to CC's type teaching.
Chuck Smith is also constantly refered to ..."Chuck says this or Chuck says that.." all the CC's I've been to that is common. I can't think of another "denomination" where that is the case. If you go to S.Baptist church or Presyterian church they don't constantly reference what the leader of that denom. says or feels, except perhaps the RCC referring to the Pope.
It also seems everything revolves around the pastor
These have been my experiences.

jane

03-18-2007, 06:36 AM

Mr. Sulu-
welcome to our forum......15 years... that is a long time.
I am sorry that you went through those experiences.

I also heard "chuck smith this...and chuch smith that..." and the pastor acted like he was best friends with "chuck smith"; made it sound like Chuck was a God.

We weren't with the calvary group for long, less than a year. It was too much like the church we left. When the calvary folk talked about Chuck Smith it reminded me of how our church talked about Pastor Pete....

So I decided that I wouldn't stay; for that and a variety of other reasons that I have already mentioned.

I figure I'd like to find a church that talks more about Jesus this and Jesus that than a man.

One question, you said the group was cult like but not a cult. I am curious as to why you would deferentiate it? What you described to me....about how leaving you are shunned etc... that seems like a cult to me.

I remember being in our church and in a homegroup. (small cell group) We were studying cults....they spoke about jehovah witnesses; mormons; and so many different cults. Then they defined cult.

I actually asked, 'well how is that different than our church, really?"

Everyone looked at me like I have four heads. The leader said, "OF course it is different, we KNOW that Pete loves the Lord and is serving the true God."

I wasn't convinced.

It was their LESSONS to prepare us for those we meet in the world, that planted the seeds that we were actually in a cult.

A born-again, spirit led, bible believing CULT.

See, it just took them going off of the word a little bit.....over a long time....and man, they were far away from where they started and far away from any will of God as far as I could see. (but honestly, I don't pretend to see God's will..... I just didn't sense anything that lined up biblically once my "eyes were opened").

Welcome to our group, I'll look forward to hearing more of your experiences.

jane

MrSulu

03-18-2007, 01:10 PM

Hi Jane
Thanks for the welcome.
I do not label CC a cult because they do not meet all the classic criteria for being a "cult".
Shunning or disassociation of departed members is not an order set forth in any CC bylines as it is by the Watchtower or Mormon doctrines. Seems with many CC members its more of a heart issue. I always found good teaching at CC's but a lack of love thus the admonishment in Scripture, " Knowledge puffs up but love builds up".
CC also does not hold to "extra revelations" outside of the Bible as do say Mormons and JW's which hold their "other" writings in the same regard as Scripture or have modern day prophets who direct the cults.
CC also holds to the basic orthodox,historical tenets of the Christian faith and do not disclaim the deity of Jesus Christ which "cults" do. CC has the right Jesus not a "different" Jesus as do cults. CC has the right Holy Spirit and the right Father God, as cults do not.
CC's do not demand a set amount of monetary tithing as do cults.
CC does not believe it is the only "true Church" thus required membership for "salvation".
CC's do not twist Scripture to support thier agenda, as do cults.
CC believes in salvation by grace, cults do not.

In my opinion the problem with CC is the governmental structure that props up the pastor as Moses. As I noted before how can he be truly accountable if his "elders" and board members are his friends and buddies. I was friends with an "elder" and his wife at the CC I went to, and the wife told me that often she desired to leave ( for better childrens programs etc) but her husband would never consider it because he "worshipped the pastor" . When attendees are straight out told repeatedly if they don't like how things are done here they can find the door that does not leave a whole lot of room for exchanging of ideas or things that the Lord may lay upon ones heart.

There is a lot of nepotisim and clickiness also. I had a friend suggest to the pastor that we serve coffee and muffins between services. He poo-pooed the idea, said "we don't do that here". About a year later the pastors wifes best friend suggested the same exact thing and it was greeted as a "wonderful idea". How do you think that made the first requestor feel ? May seem like a small thing but when things similar to this happen repeatedly there's a problem. Also the same people year after year are ones allowed to teach bible studies or prayer groups etc. They are also the pastors "in crowd", for 15 years the same people.
I feel many CC pastor's are so intent on doing things the "CC way" that they inhibit the Holy Spirit from doing things "His" way.

In a conversation one Sunday after church the pastors wife told me she was going to her husbands cousins house that afternoon, then she lowered her voice and said "they are unbelievers" in a tone that indicated she was dreading spending time with "unbelievers".. Gosh, I wanted to tell her maybe the Lord had these "unbelievers" in her life for a reason, like, to share the love of Jesus with them, to be an example of His love (and maybe they would be led to Him through that example of love), but with her attitude that was highly doubtful.

I also had a close friend at that church tell me she wanted to invite me and my spouse to dinner at her house but she noted her husband had said my spouse was nice but an "unbeliever" so the invitation to dinner could not be extended ! I married my spouse many years before I got saved. Gee what a great example of christian love ! How do you think my spouse would have felt had I relayed that incident ?
The lack of love just asounded me at times. But hey we knew all the right verses for every situation and were "well taught and fed the Word" , it's application was sorely lacking though. A clanging cymbal is the description Paul used for those who know all things or have all wisdom yet no love. I had to leave because my ears were being blasted by the noise of clanging cymbals.

jane

03-18-2007, 05:02 PM

Mr. Sulu-

You just described the church that I came out of (not the cc church). If not a cult, then certainly spiritually abusive. I guess we can use words lightly because I often call that church that we came out of a cult. Although they did expect a tithe- and did some things that you listed that CC does not.

I guess I really don't know the amount of criteria one must have to be a cult.

In my experience I did find that the Pastor of the CC church that we went to did want us to read a ton of books that either Chuck Smith wrote or about his life. It made me "feel" like the watchtowers other books...but I don't know if it was "additional" doctrine because I couldn't be bothered to read any of it. I was still raw after leaving the church we were in for 9 years.....

That group did act like the CC was the only right interpretation of the bible and talked in a way that Chuck has a personal telephone line with God that the rest of us could not have.

The CC also did not force a tithe...and we were impressed at first by the Pastor not taking a salary because he quoted from scripture that Paul was a tentmaker to not burden the church....however later it was found that the pastor and his wife were taking money from the church reserves without telling. (which is stealing; not taking a tithe)

The pastor did misquote scripture- twisted it in some really sick ways. When a mentally ill man was crank calling his home he prayed from the pulpit for God to reach into that man's throat and grab his heart and stop the heart from beating. I was mortified and so was my teenage son who later said; even though the words were bad- the rage in which he said it was so much worse.

However, the church that I went to only had 6 families...at the most. It could have been just the nature of the small group and dysfunctional pastors. After the new pastors left- CC disbanned the church and it no longer exists.

I was impressed with two couples- having relocated here for work- that were previously in another CC group- with their knowledge and handle on scripture. While I heard the pastor misquote it and twist it- they did not and held themselves open before God.

When I read your story, I do feel bad for the pain that was inflicted in the name of Jesus.
Sometimes I think that when leaders become abusive, they really don't know what they are doing. They seem to believe that they are following God and that they love Him....
but like you write- how then does it end up without love and a sounding gong? Is it sin? Is it human nature? ignorance?

If they really love God; how can they say things like "they are not saved" with contempt? Their call is to love and reach the unsaved. I too heard similar comments from my first pastor's wife when she spoke of her husband's unsaved catholic (which was a swear word) family. She would qualify her negativity with a statement so pray for us and for their salvation but yet it seemed like she preferred to be contemptuous about their unsavedness.

jane

MrSulu

03-18-2007, 07:59 PM

What you failed to mention about Chuck is that he came out of the Four Square denomination. The reason he started Calvary Chapel was that he was tired of answering to a board or as is the mantra of all CC pastors "I'm not a hireling to the congregation/sheep". Many other denominational churches are governed by the actual members of the church, they can vote the pastor in or vote the pastor out based on his performance or however the Lord leads. Not so in CC. The congregation has absolutley nothing to say about the church leadership, if a majority of the congregation doesn't like what the pastor is doing all they can do is leave, they can't vote him out. Smith felt under that under congregational structure the pastor is a hireling to the people, and he did not like that. Thus CC. This gives the pastor a whole lot of power. Some CC pastors are barely 30 years old. Many argue non-congregational government is not biblical. My personal opinion is Chuck is a good man and he loves the Lord, but I also believe the "system" he started is wrong,unbiblical and sets up pastors to an authoritarian Moses role for which leads to pride . A good overview is @
http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/Moses-Principle

I tried my best not to comment on this... But... I did some research on Chuck Smith.

Granted there are those that like him & those that do not.
I'll make a quick point here. We can not demonize the founder because he is a founder. This happens to Bill Gates a lot & I guess this goes with the territory. While were at it let's blame the Iraq war on John Hancock or George Washington. I guess "someone" HAS to start a church. In fact there are quite a many church founders. Chuck is probably demonized because he has not been selfish with his ministry in that he helped others to get started also.

A litlte history:
Chuck Smith started the 1st Calvary. The Calvary Church is the middle ground between Pentecost (With strict Church Government) and the Baptist (With not so many guidelines).
When Chuck started "his" Calvary people flocked to it because it was NOT controlling. The whole "Idea" if you could call it that was to have a place that "everyone" could attend. This was in the middle of the hippy movement in the 60-70's. So..... the hippies finally could come to church. When they did, it started a HUGE movement where Christ was spread everywhere. (Thus there are a lot of calvary churches) The entire idea was that it not get wacky like some of the other "denominations" had. Thus "no" denimination was declared. So... people imply that there is some sort of Calvary denomination. When in actuallity there isn't one per se.

Calvary is not a denomination it's just that they have been able to plant quite a few churches (700) because they support spreading the Gospel & don't claim to have any patent on being a pastor. (Incidently, this is exactly why many churches don't spread - because the pastor doesn't want any competition). It takes a lot to help another pastor to get started. Is this not what the church should do? Maybe there is a reason the churches have spreaded so broadly that people think it's its own denomination. It's just that they cary the Church's original name.

The teachings steared away from private interpretations & one of the guidelines is that they do not do this. Side note: I guess this is what is meant by Chuck dictating what the churches can do. I'll continue. All Calvary affiliates "MUST" read the scripture word for word, book after book.... litterally. So, you don't have private interpretations we actually "read" the bible every week. The week after that, the next chapter is read & so on. How much closer to understanding what is taught can you get ? Just a question.

What I've experienced in these churches is just the opposite of what most of us would call abuse. There is true freedom. So much that it's almost scary. BUT... isn't that what Jesus wanted? For us to freely come & not judge one another? Interesting. Even though there are pastors there, they are just a gift and is not held higher in authority than anyone else in the church. The WHOLE idea that is supposed to be promoted is that we are all EQUAL in the church. That is the way most Calvaries are set up. So, to be a pastor is not some MIGHTY office in these churches with a lot of influence. At least that's what the guidelines regulate. So... if you go to a Calvary, much of the time you can't tell who the pastor is until he starts speaking. Because they blend in with the other members as such.

Speaking of Guidelines... it states in their guidelines that "SOME" Calvary churches may not adhere to their principles. But should not reflect what they stand for.

Also speaking of guidelines: Do we really want NO guidelines. Anarchy? In the church? Is this what the bible teaches when it says things should be done decently and in order? I think not. It's not that guidelines are bad, it's unclear and unfair guidelines that create tyrants. So... is there a governing board along with Chuck that keeps things from getting out of hand (Like so many churches we know)? Yes thank God. But... when going through the guidelines they are in no way negative. The guidelines make certain that in most cases churches remain open to all and that the pastors power doesn't get out of control. I'll say this again... does it happen regardless of the guidelines...yes.

Also.... I'll say this also because it is a forum & I can. We have to be very carefull about creating absolutes where there are unknowns. Some folks make a convincing argument that ALL churches of a similar nature are bad. If a certain group is 100% this way then I could agree with that, but a balanced view is necessary in most of our churches. All can be dangerous. If I agreed with this philosophy based on a few experiences I'd have to say:

All black's are criminals, lazy, & should be slaves
All whites are racist, arrogant, dishonest, sneaky, & greedy
All hispanics are illegal aliens, dirty, & lazy
All indians run casino's and are push over's
All Chinese know kungfu, know math, & can't have unique Idea.

See... this is the problem with ALL. If one is not like that, the ALL is not true because ALL assumes 100% and 99.99999% is not ALL.

This is the stuff that abuse is founded upon. It's almost true, but not exactly true. This is dangerous. My concern is that we don't take on the very ideals that some abusive church leadership does. And that is to take an unknown and make it an absolute when in actuallity we don't know what the truth is because we haven't done the necessary work.

...My 2 cents. I tried my best to not get involved with this thread, but my consious kept jerking at me. Believe me I do hear what everyone is saying & I do understand that any church can get crazy regardless of the initial intentions. I'll say this again for myself, if I see it 1st hand myself, I'm gone. But, you have to forgive me, I'm a little leary of hear say now that I've been through what I've been through. I'm more of an investigative type of Christian. Considering the guidelines Calvary to me seems to be the lesser of most evils considering that there is no perfect church assembly.

Carmen

03-19-2007, 01:47 AM

I do not label CC a cult because they do not meet all the classic criteria for being a "cult"...

In my opinion the problem with CC is the governmental structure that props up the pastor as Moses....

I also had a close friend at that church tell me she wanted to invite me and my spouse to dinner at her house but she noted her husband had said my spouse was nice but an "unbeliever" so the invitation to dinner could not be extended ! I married my spouse many years before I got saved. Gee what a great example of christian love ! How do you think my spouse would have felt had I relayed that incident ?
The lack of love just asounded me at times.... I had to leave because my ears were being blasted by the noise of clanging cymbals.

Welcome too, Mr. Sulu (like your handle, I'm a trekkie). :)

I agree with the cult-likeness of some of the CC's methods and that the church govt. is set up to promote rather than prevent spiritual abuse and control. In some individual cases though, couldn't the pastors have left the gospel behind them if they add too much to it or twist scripture enough? In those cases the churches might be more than just cult-like, but full-blown cults.

I'm married to an unbeliever too, and it doesn't just cause problems in the CC, but other churches as well. I have often found myself on the outside because people see us as a unit and not two individuals with different opinions. The don't want to invite me without inviting him, or just don't invite us (or me) at all because of him. He is against a lot of Christian ideas too and will voice that when they come up, which is also part of the problem.

It isn't only a lack of love, but a lack of civility or tolerance, which some non-Christians can better exemplify than Christians, sadly enough.

Elisabeth

03-20-2007, 06:49 PM

I'm married to an unbeliever too, and it doesn't just cause problems in the CC, but other churches as well. I have often found myself on the outside because people see us as a unit and not two individuals with different opinions. The don't want to invite me without inviting him, or just don't invite us (or me) at all because of him. He is against a lot of Christian ideas too and will voice that when they come up, which is also part of the problem.

It isn't only a lack of love, but a lack of civility or tolerance, which some non-Christians can better exemplify than Christians, sadly enough.

I had the same problem at the church I went to for the first two years after I was married; even though my husband is not an unbeliever, he kind of "dropped out" of Christian life and church going for a little while. When Christians do the kind of behavior you describe, I have ony one way to describe it. :mad: :mad: :mad:
It started to cause problems in my marriage; so I finally left the church for one I felt more comfortable with and would not judge me for the fact my husband didn't always want to come to church with me. The ironic thing was it was my husband that picked the first church, and he was aggravated that I left it! :confused: He just would not believe that the church was causing problems in our marriage, because he liked that church when he would go to it. Of course, he couldn't see the way they treated me when he wasn't there. He tried to drag me back to that church when he decided to go back to church three years later, and wondered why I cried through the whole service the one time we went back. Fortunately, he decided that if I didn't want to go there, we would find another church.

Carmen

03-21-2007, 12:03 PM

Fortunately, he decided that if I didn't want to go there, we would find another church.
At least he came to reason in the end. :)

writerforthelord

10-10-2007, 09:14 PM

I had the WORST experience in a Calvary Chapel of my Christian life!!:mad:

I was told to leave because I got upset. I've been a Christian since 1983, lived in lots of major cities in the U.S. and have attended quite a few churches but have never had an experience like that. Tonight I finally spoke with the pastor, after calling the main Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, who were loving and prayed for me and suggested I do the "Matthew 18" thing where you go to a "Brother who has offended you" but I wish I had never spoken to the man. If I wasn't a Christian I would call you vile names! He was SO cold to me!! Repeated how "wrong" I was. Wouldn't let me finish sentences and wanted to end the conversation when HE wanted. I (unlovingly) slammed the phone down in his ear.

I'm sorry, but just because you have the title of pastor doesn't mean you have the heart of a pastor nor that God put you in that position. You can be a "hireling" instead of a "shepherd".

What a YUCKY, UGLY experience! It seems that Calvary Chapel pastors (from my experience and from what I've read) have CONTROL ISSUES!!!

COME OUT OF HER, MY CHILDREN!!!!

Elisabeth

10-11-2007, 09:18 AM

Welcome, Writerfor the Lord!

I'm so sorry you had such a bad experience. And you are right, pastors might not be true shepherds! Well, now you know not to contact him. :mad: Some might think it's being unforgiving; I know I was given that BS, but forgiving someone does not mean setting yourself up physically or mentally for a beating! So just stay away from him, and know you are right for doing so!

Randy

10-13-2007, 12:09 AM

WFTL

Why would you want to be part of a church with a pastor like that anyway? It is one thing to make a bad judgment which we all make. It is something else when you have someone who is drunk with power and who wields his power at the slightest irritation. Because of the bad press that Calvary Chapel pastors have gotten in the past, some them have become trigger happy when using the Moses principle in booting out people that don't think like they do and who they think might cause problems later.

What the people at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa did was right and biblical. But because they are not there to witness the problem, all they could further suggest to you is to leave that church. Of course it hurts our pride when people tell us to go away. But personally I think you are better off fellowshipping some where else. Who knows. God may have something better for you at another church.

There's a saying "When God closes a door, He opens a window".

mrjohnm

02-16-2008, 06:45 AM

A most difficult post to write....

The experiences shared by the many here are just so revealing of the blatant abuse at the Calvary’s.

I don’t need to articulate on my experiences. Suffice it to say that many of the post’s bear witness to the horrid state of affairs at Calvary. Yes, I generalize. I am able to do so only because I know with certainty, based on many years in the movement as an Elder, Church Board Member and Pastor, that the problems of “Executive Privilege” are endemic to the very core of Calvary.

It is tremendously sad. I first met Christ at Calvary. I had a wonderful experience for many years, only to run afoul of the Senior Hierarchy and experience a most devastating and traumatic series of events, which culminated in my being told “…you need to find another place to fellowship…”

Through the study of scripture and the working of the Holy Spirit in my life, I’ve been able to forgive those who brought so much harm to my family and myself.

I am no longer bitter and now fellowship at a little non-denominational church in another town. I will never forget though…and won’t ever set foot in another Calvary Chapel.

My children, having grown up in the "ideal" setting, still bear the scars of the devastating effects of seeing their father put to public ridicule and shame by those with an other than Godly agenda.

May God, have Mercy on the souls of those that participated in the cover-ups and the deliberate and shameful actions for which they are responsible.

Have a most wonderful day. :)

FedUP

02-22-2008, 01:42 PM

I am new to the forum, and this is the first thread that caught my eye, with the mention of CC. My story may not be similar to any others, and certainly not limitied to CC I am sure. Without boring you with the whole story, I had marriage troubles and very early on in my marriage in fact. Finally got my wife to go to CC with me and my Pastor there recommended counseling. Well, an already bad marriage was essentially tossed overboard by this Pastor and his politically correct but most assuredly Biblical incorrect counsel and he basically validated my wife's adultery, lying, stealing, and bearing false witness against me, her husband. The pastor lied to me, spoke with my wife secretly without me knowing it and blatantly could have cared less about the distress I was feeling at all of it. In my case, I believe what the Bible says about marriage, homosexuality, and a whole host of other issues that seem to be on the front pages these days. The church IMO has become absolutely corrupt with false teaching regarding these issues and in the process they could care not a wit about those they harm in the meanwhile. Instead of following just what scripture says, I find and have experienced numerous preacher types who follow their own opinions and seem to be caught up in feminism, human psychology and other unscriptural practices. If I wanted that sort of garbage, I wouldn't have needed this guy's counseling as a Christian Pastor. Having love or respect for a woman doesn't mean you validate every bad behaviour a woman might engage in, but that sort of spiritual confusion that betrays an unwillingness to stand by God's word is exactly what I find going on in alot of churches and let there be no doubt it does lead to abuse. With the destruction this particular CC Pastor helped to unleash on my life, a man whom I had trusted, it was all I could do to contain my anger. And he not only never apologized, he essentially said he didn't care. I personally find absolutely no comfort in the church today and thus I do not attend, nor will I in the forseeable future. I find the denominational church to have become nothing more than a veritable cesspool of false teaching and political correctness and I simply don't have the stomach for it anymore.

mrjohnm

02-23-2008, 06:11 AM

FedUP

Yes, it is very distressing, the absolute authority of the CC Pastor....even one who may have been a friend for many years....

When my marriage encountered problems everything disintegrated....

The unbiblical counsel, secret meetings with my ex-wife, the repeated lies...directly to my face... and statements such as "...the only person responsible for the problems in your marriage is you..." had a direct negative effect on my marriage, and substantiated and supported my wife's unscriptural focus on the marriage and life itself. Our union ultimately ended in a divorce that I fought to the bitter end.

Mind you, I accept that I held responsibility for some of the issues in the marriage...absolutely Nothing though, was irreparable and the marriage should have survived. The divorce and the truth of its demise is one of the dirty little secrets held by those very closely associated "Brothers In Christ". Shame on them

My ex-wife has been suicidal for years and recently told the children she has nothing to live for and intends to kill herself.....the Pastor of the church of course gave her Biblical counsel, telling her to "...get over it...".

Chuck Smith and the leaders of the Calvary movement have done a tremendous disservice to the Calvary membership and evangelical Christianity in general, with there lack of discipline and unwillingness to enforce moral and ethical responsibility toward their "affiliated churches" ("...affiliated..." another way of distancing the mother church from her siblings).

Life is good though...Jesus reigns supreme.

angel885

02-23-2008, 11:10 AM

Hello everyone. I posted a thread about some questions I had about Calvary Chapel. My boyfriend and I are attending one in NJ and Im not feeling comfortable going there anymore becuase of their views on certain things, especially their view of women. You know, the headship/submission thing. A friend of ours who is a new Christian recommended us to go there and I brought this issue up with him. He claims they dont teach it the way I thought it meant. Well I went to blue letter bible.com and there was a commentary by chuck smith regarding this issue. I didnt like it as he painted the picture of marriage as authority/submission. To me, a Godly relationship does not work like this. It is a partnership, and mutal submission. He seemed to emphasize the wifes submission more. And then I listened to our pastor's sermons and he used the word subordination but then said husband and wife are equal. What is it about these churches and authority? Also, I heard ChuckSmith runs the church by using Moses Authoritarianism. Well, im uncomfortable becuase this can lead to abuses in power. I am not fond of organized religion. And does this mean I have to leave my brain at the door when going to calvary chapel? I am a very smart woman, with analytical reasoning skills and a strong will. God gave me those gifts and I dont intend to check them at the door. I know every church has problems, but I dont seem comfortable with it after doing research. I am also afraid it is going to impact my relationship with my boyfriend, becuase he has made a friend there and trusts him more. They could always say that im the one being disobedient to the Lord and then my bf wont honor my request to find another place or study the Bible ourselves. Any comments/stories would be helpful.

jane

02-28-2008, 05:35 AM

Angel-
like I posted, RUN like he77 !

Jerry

02-28-2008, 05:42 AM

Angel-
like I posted, RUN like he77 !

Jane ,,,,,,,love that little fella you posted on photo-bucket :D

jane

02-28-2008, 06:00 AM

thanks jerry-
I've got to update it- he was 1 day old then-

on March 18 he will be 6 months! went too fast.

my maternity leave ends this week- even though I return @ only 19 hrs a week, I'm trying to figure out hoe to do it all.

busy busy busy these days.

love ya!

jane

Jerry

02-28-2008, 09:40 AM

Freeatlast

03-09-2008, 06:07 AM

I walked into a CC in 1988 after being saved for one year. I was riding high in Christ as a new little lamb. CC seemed to be the closest thing to origional christianity in church form that could be found. The people in charge didn't wear gowns or even suites just Hawiian shirts, it seemed to have very little pretence. I was invited into the lives of some of the assistant pastors and elders, it was becoming like a family...wow.
After about 2 years, everyone stopped talking to me, stopped inviting me to their homes and no one would tell me why. I was devistated, crushed, struggled greatly with the questions of this christian living and how to respond. The reason why I was black balled is so insignificant as to be unbelievable.
Long story short I backslide horribly for years. I tried to go to different churches only to die in the pew. After my last pablum filled sermon at my local Baptist church I vowed to figure out why I can't find life or purpose in these establishments.
The Lord started to open my eyes and revealing things to me like I hadn't experenced since I first was saved complete with joy. Some in this forum may be offended in what I will say, and with some it may resonate.
First, CC is a man run, man designed organization. Chuck Smith didn't start the Jesus movement, he usurped it. The Holy Spirit moves, men institutionalize.
Second, the whole layout of the "church", though containting biblical title for it's clergy, is totally upside down. I won't go into it, but there is a lot of info you can get on the internet about the practices of the church and how they evolved. I read Frank Viola's book Rethinking the Wineskin and it all made sense.
Finnally, as for CC and any other man lead organization flee, find a few spirit filled believers and fellowship with a meal and you'll discover the church the way it was ment to be.