Dead People [Archive] - Christian Recovery Forums

jane

02-02-2006, 04:51 AM

Willow-

I used to believe that once you died, that instant, you went to heaven or hell immediately....and then your body was later reunited at some point.... I wasn't always clear about that or why.

I find myself thinking out of the christian-right box....scriptures like Lazarus (not the one raised from the dead, but the other rich one who asked Jesus can he go back and warn his brothers.....)

and the transfiguration on the mount...

to me this is an illustration that we know each other after.....that those in the after can see the now...

I don't think that they can talk to us.....because that was addressed in the Lazarus story Jesus told...

but I think that they can hear us....and perhaps they can pray...Jesus has gone to sit at the right hand to intercede.

I used to believe that only if you said the sinners prayer you could go to heaven.... but I am more inclined to think that it is more of a heart matter....I have seen people of many faiths (including the ones without a sinners prayer) that seem to know their shepherd's voice......

I don't believe that suicide is a direct tickett to hell......

When Christians use that example of Judas..... I believe that he was talking about the condition of his heart...

I had a friend tell me once that she believed the catholic church had to make suicide a sin because they made heaven soooo wonderful in order to convert......and during medieval times the people would want to leave their horrible conditions early....so the church had to prevent a massive exodus off the earth by naming suicide a sin. I thought that was an interesting thought.

I know that ALL things are possible in Christ and we dont' know all things....

The fact that your mother had two siblings committ suicide tells me that there seems to be something beyond the immediate view, .... suffering from some kind of pain that drives 3 people in a family to suicide...

I don't know but frankly, God's love is bigger than man's.

So all that to say, My guess is that she is in a wonderful incredible place and can peek down to see you....and pray for you.

But I am only human and have not seen the other side with my eyes....nor has anyone else on this side.

I know that I was always taught NOT to talk to the deceased by the church that I was in because I would be entertaining demons....

honestly, I started talking to my grandfather.... he became saved the last months of his cancer....and at first I was VERY afraid to do it...to talk to him. Then I felt comfort....and sometimes I'll ask him to pray if he is able .....and I get an incredible peace believing that I am covered by the love of my grandfather....and prayers get answered (would demons do that? for what purpose?).....for me abandoned by my father, his son, this is healing....he loved me and his family very very much and that was his main value in his life- his family. The covering fixes broken peices.

and if I am wrong, than I say it is another sin that will be covered under the blood-

because frankly I have to walk away from almost everything that I have been taught.....to see and honestly decide what I believe is true.....

hugs to you.........

love,

jane

SpinningHead

02-02-2006, 06:57 AM

My mind is all over the place on this one...

I've had experiences with things I can't possibly explain...

When I think of this Bible scenerio...I Samuel 28

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
"There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."
9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"
10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."
11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, "Look, your maidservant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way."
23 He refused and said, "I will not eat."
But his men joined the woman in urging him, and he listened to them. He got up from the ground and sat on the couch.
24 The woman had a fattened calf at the house, which she butchered at once. She took some flour, kneaded it and baked bread without yeast. 25 Then she set it before Saul and his men, and they ate. That same night they got up and left.

This Bible says Samuel...not a demon in disquise. I'm not saying I would mess around with mediums/psycics...for the Bible gives clear instructions on such matters...BUT, in this case...it was Samuel. What does that portion of truth tell me?

Do I think our loved ones in Heaven are aware of us? still love us? I think so. I think I can feel my favorite Aunt thinking of me from time to time...Do I find myself talking to her in dreams? yup. Would I consult a "medium" to do it?? naahhh. Do I have any other Biblical reference for these feelings/opinions...no. Just my own gut on this one.

My bottom line on such matters is...I don't know.

Good post!

Voyager

02-02-2006, 11:44 AM

Hope 98

02-02-2006, 02:06 PM

I'm glad to see that people are exploring all over the place, and acknowledging a deviation from the standard issue.

I fully believe that only God knows a person's heart, and we can't say who will or who won't go to heaven. I believe there is an assurance of salvation that we can know for ourselves as individuals, but we have no right to assume anything about anyone else.

I believe that there is a "hell" but that we know as little about that as we do about heaven. I also find it difficult to believe that God would send any of his creatures to eternal torment. I'm inclined to think that if there is fire in hell, it consumes whatever is in it and it is no more.

I'm going to avoid too much complicated theorizing here, but I DO believe that people who have died are still individuals, and that they are aware of us and what is going on in our lives.

I believe that God understand the grief that accompanies the loss of people we love in ways we barely imagine. The Holy Spirit is "the Comforter" and I believe that comfort (of the emotional sort - rather than physical or financial) is important to God.

I hope some of that helps. I'm praying for you Amy.

jane

02-02-2006, 03:24 PM

I don't know what happens after you die. I'd like to think that Jesus died to redeem mankind and open the doors to heaven - even for those who have never heard of Him and/or don't understand Him.

That is what I insinuated when I referred to Jesus saying, "it is finished."

I am often afraid to say my real thoughts out loud for fear that someone will chew me out....

but if Jesus paid the price by his death, why would any other sacrifice be needed?

I read the bible and it says hell exists,,,, I believe that it is for fallen angels as they have no redemtion because they have seen the face of God and still chose evil.

But I'd like to believe that ALL humans are saved because HE PAID THE PRICE>

Another thing a friend had said, she believed that murderers and criminals would be in heaven, she said that they of all people need the peace in their mind.

Wow, that got me thinking since she said that....

why would death be required of us if the sin offering was paid in full?

I like it when we all start to think out loud.

love,
jane

Leb

02-02-2006, 11:13 PM

I'd like to hear about what you all think about the dead and where they go... and if they can still see us or sense us. No one truly knows til we die... I know that... but still... I write to my mom and send her emails as though she can still see them.

Input welcome.

Amy

((((Amy)))),

I am so sorry for your loss....

Here's what my heart believes (knows) since walking through the unexpected loss of my friend/housemate (she's been with Him for a year plus now).

Her death was a big shock to all who knew her. The suddeness of it left things unsaid, and lots of questions .... But a number of us who knew her were given glimpses of her as she is now (kinda with our spirit, sort of something you see with your mind's eye without planning it and without it being you coming up with it). In those glimpses I couldn't really see what heaven was like (it seemed that there were things on this side of life we couldn't know until we're on that side) , but I could glimpse the wholeness in her. That wholeness is sort of hard to describe. I mean, we talk about peace and joy and healing in this life, but what I sensed in her was so much more of all that rolled all together.

In some of my "glimpses" I felt like she knew I was seeing her. During the first few weeks I also felt her especially "with" us during worship times. When the neighbor who she'd talked to about the Lord came to church for the first time, we both really really knew our friend knew she was there.

There were a couple very personal, precious times when she spoke something directly to my heart (brief but deep), too. The first time, at the graveside service, it was sort of something she'd left unsaid that I needed to hear. The second time, some months later, she said one word that, without my realizing it until afterwards, answered my biggest struggle about her death.

Beyond the glimpses, well, a number of us also seemed to notice that things our friend was concerned about for us before her death seemed to come together in the few months after her death. She was (is?) very strong willed and I can almost see her going directly to the Lord upon her arrival and insisting He answer those prayers of hers rather quickly :). She was also (I'm sure she still is!) quite a Broncos fan, so recently I had to giggle when (I think this is right - I'm not up on sports, but it was some big game on t.v.) they made it to the Super Bowl. I just thought, "yep, there's the results of her prayers again!!!"

So, my thinking about heaven these days is that those who have died and know the Lord are that "great crowd of witnesses". In some way that we can't know on this side of it all, they still carry us in their hearts and are cheering us on. Its not a deal where we're suppose to seek out communication with them, like people do with mediums and such, but sometimes our hearts do know they are there (I do "talk" to my friend occasionally, but more for me to get feelings and the like).

And sometimes when it fits with God's purposes He will lift the veil in a small way so that we glimpse something more (it has to be Him that does it, though, not us).

My friend, by the way, died of what I refer to as an accidental overdose. But the official label was "suicide". There's a lot of ways to look at it all, but whatever really happened is not so much an issue to me now....

Leb

Jerry

02-02-2006, 11:34 PM

Are the dead aware of those still living ???? I doubt it because of the " Time Differental".............ie;,,,,strech a loop of string to the Moon and back to Earth and let that represent eternity........now lay a human hair perpindicular accross that string and let that represent a human lifetime....You can quickly see that no matter how long you live after the passing of a loved one.When you step through "That Door" they will have just turned to offer you a hand to help you through ;) Those that we have loved are just not that far away,we are just stuck here at the wrong end of the "Telescope" :)
Love Jerry

Willow

02-03-2006, 09:43 AM

Gosh ya'll... I kinda fell off the earth for a day or so and found all these great replies. I plan to read them tonight. Very great insights and thoughts to ponder.

Thanks

SpinningHead

02-03-2006, 10:39 AM

I know that my beliefs probably fall outside the Christian norm, but I don't believe in a literal hell. I think hell was concocted by religious leaders thousands of years ago when burning people at the stake was an accepted form of punishment. Kind of like the rules in 1st Corinthians that women cannot talk in church or teach their husbands. Nowadays, most people would consider burning someone a cruel and abusive form of punishment. Personally, I cannot imagine a loving father burning or torturing his child because he/she disobeyed. But like I said, you will find many Christians who will debate this opinion.

I don't know what happens after you die. I'd like to think that Jesus died to redeem mankind and open the doors to heaven - even for those who have never heard of Him and/or don't understand Him.

:cool:

My hubby thinks a lot like you do in that he couldn't imaging a loving God/Father condemning a person to "hell".

I was reading Exodus today about how God sent the plagues on the Egyptians and then finally drowned them in the Red Sea. Weren't the Egyptians also His sons/daughters? He dealt pretty harshly w/ some of those OT folks as a result of their sins.

I come back to the question of, if there is no hell...what was the point of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins? Is it either heaven or existance ceased? Where is the justice for the murderer/rapist (or other evil crime doer) if they die and simply cease?

I'm not arguing here...I'm sincerely asking the questions if anyone knows? I mean, I know my own thoughts on the answers but I'm always curious for insight from others and all ideas are welcomed. :)

PS...Biblical references preferred, appreciated and will be looked up. :)

mstar

02-03-2006, 11:19 AM

somewhere (where I can't think of right now) the Bible tells of when Jesus died and went into hell, He preached (His plan of redemption, what else could it have been) to those of whom had been lost, I think, in the flood ?????. If I find the verse I will post it.
I don't know, but if He went into all that trouble, it would seem He might have also escourted some from Hades out on His way to heaven (the tombs breaking open in Jersaluem. . .know these could have been those in Abraham's bosom, but maybe He brought along some others)

I agree with Jerry on the diminsion, time thought. The Bible does say we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses cheering us on.

As for sending e-mails to your Mom, Willow, if that is therapeutic, go for it. Just so you don't start receiving replys.:D

Sounds like you are doing well during your grieving process. Love you, bless you.

SpinningHead

02-04-2006, 09:53 AM

[QUOTE=mstar]somewhere (where I can't think of right now) the Bible tells of when Jesus died and went into hell, He preached (His plan of redemption, what else could it have been) to those of whom had been lost, I think, in the flood ?????. If I find the verse I will post it.
[QUOTE]

In a really careful and respectful way...I do challenge you to find where in the Bible it tells this story. All my life I've been told this story that when Jesus was dead for 3 days we went into hell and did all sorts of things...but not once has it ever been directly referred from the Bible.

In fact, this was the very first story that I questioned (and got into trouble with)...where in the Bible does it say he died and went to hell? All I've ever read in my Bible is that he was dead and on the third day he rose...what am I missing?

Doug64

02-04-2006, 10:16 AM

A quick search of Biblegateway.com yielded these references to hell.

In the R. V. of O. T. it appears only in (Isaiah 5:14;14:9,15;28:15,18;57:9; Ezekiel 31:16,17;)
In the R. V., "sheol" is translated "lowest pit" (Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalms 86:13)
And it is translated "pit" in (Psalms 55:15)
"Sheol" is translated "grave" in A. V. in (Genesis 37:35;42:38;44:29,31; 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6;; J)
THE FUTURE HOME OF THE WICKED (Psalms 9:17; Proverbs 5:5;9:13,15-18;15:24;23:13,14; Isaiah)
THE FUTURE HOME OF THE WICKED » See WICKED, PUNISHMENT OF

Note there seem to be no NT references. I find that odd.

My understanding is that hell is the grave.

Doug

Doug64

02-04-2006, 10:21 AM

Ok - here are some from the NT.
Same source.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matthew 5:29-31 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 18:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 23:32-34 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Mark 9:42-44 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
Mark 9:44-46 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Mark 9:46-48 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Luke 12:4-6 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 16:23
In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Luke 16:22-24 (in Context) Luke 16 (Whole Chapter)
James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
James 3:5-7 (in Context) James 3 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)

More if I find 'em.

Doug

jane

02-04-2006, 10:37 AM

now I am scared....:(

jane

mstar

02-04-2006, 11:31 AM

In a really careful and respectful way...I do challenge you to find where in the Bible it tells this story. All my life I've been told this story that when Jesus was dead for 3 days we went into hell and did all sorts of things...but not once has it ever been directly referred from the Bible.

In fact, this was the very first story that I questioned (and got into trouble with)...where in the Bible does it say he died and went to hell? All I've ever read in my Bible is that he was dead and on the third day he rose...what am I missing?

1 Peter 3;18,19, NIV

"For Christ died for sins once and for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. "

NIV note pp.1893 (or at the bottom of the page of the text);

"Peter, like Paul refers in Philp.2;5-11, refers to Jesus as an example of the type of conduct that should characterize a Christian. We are to be ready to suffer for doing good. The thought of Christ's suffering and death, however leads Peter to comment on what occurred after Christ's death-which leads to tangential remarks about preaching to the spirits in prison and about baptism."

NotGrindedDown

02-04-2006, 01:28 PM

Personallly, I don't think there is anything wrong with sending mom emails. Whatever helps you make it thru the night. ;)

I feel if you've been saved then you'll be in heaven. If not, then hell is your destiny.

I certainly hope that my loved ones who have gone on to heaven can see and hear what's going on down here! God knows I've talked to them often!

I think they CAN. I belive they've seen my daughter get married, and were "angels" around the table when my daughter delivered my grandson.!
I also think they'll be at my sons wedding. :D

:)

I agree about sending emails to mom -- "making thru the night" is a good way to put it.
I'm not so sure about Hell -- this may be just a priest's threat to make you behave -- if we do things wrong, we may have some learning and understanding to do before fully saved.
But I'm a non-conformist, soI may be wrong.
I think the "angel" bit is probably right anyway: sounds right to me.

Jerry

02-05-2006, 05:34 AM

I'm not so sure about Hell -- this may be just a priest's threat to make you behave --
That is exactly what it is.........................The word rendered "Hell" in our English translations in the Hebrew Texts is "Sheol" which simply means "The Grave" and that is all it means ;) The "Lake of Fire" referanced in the book of "Rev" does not come into existance until the end of Christs 1000 year reign.Although the texts being discussed are "Greek" certin Hebrew concepts apply as the writers were "Jewish" followers of Christ.There is a Hebrew Idium that "Gods Truth is a Consuming Fire"........"The Lake of Fire" of Rev. is a metaphore expressing the idea of being completely submerged in the consuming fire of Gods Truth(referance Daniel 3 verses 19-30 for deeper insight) notice that the nonbelieving charactors (the guards) were consumed while the Three Children were not consumed.
What it means?????
At the "Last Day" of Christs 1000 year reign,and the "First Day" of "Gods Eternal Reign" is "Final Judgement". Those who have overcome the "Evil One" souls will transform from "Mortal" ( meaning libal to die) to "Immortal" and enter into Gods Eternal Kingdom ..... Those who did not overcome are at that point sentanced to "Perdition" ( Totally bloted out of memory & existance ) "Consumed" if you will..........
There is another Hebrew Idium,,,,,,,the phrase "In That Day" consistant in the Bible,cover to cover.......It always means the first day of "Gods Eternal Reign"..........That is the day that Gods Truth is fully known and accepted without exception.The day when Christs function as "Intercessor" is "Complete" .For the Saviors teaching on this point read John 16 verses 23-28
For now,all souls who have ever lived are with God. Some on one side of the "Gulf" some on the other,,,,,but all within sight of the Father,until final Judgement.Referance Luke 16 verses 19-31
I have no clue why "Pasturds" don't teach the Truth........I don't know about you but the idea of being "Blotted out of all memory and existance" sure scares the "HELL" out of me !!!! :D

SpinningHead

02-05-2006, 07:48 AM

1 Peter 3;18,19, NIV

"For Christ died for sins once and for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. "

NIV note pp.1893 (or at the bottom of the page of the text);

"Peter, like Paul refers in Philp.2;5-11, refers to Jesus as an example of the type of conduct that should characterize a Christian. We are to be ready to suffer for doing good. The thought of Christ's suffering and death, however leads Peter to comment on what occurred after Christ's death-which leads to tangential remarks about preaching to the spirits in prison and about baptism."

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!
(((where's my applauding emoticon??)))

You are the first person who provided a reference for this story when I asked for one!!!! I can't wait to get some quiet time and check it out!!!

SO HAPPY!!! :D

Now why couldn't the leadership of my youth have directed me to this verse? Why did I have to go through the whole, "Who are you to question me??" discipline? I was labled a trouble maker and my mother was spoken to about me several times...all because I asked for a reference?!?!?!

Even into my adulthood has no one ever provided a reference when asked!

Thank you MStar! You have made my day!

mstar

02-05-2006, 11:36 AM

Thanks SH, but give any thanks, whatever, to the Lord as He does the work. I am sorry you were treated that way when you simply asked for a referrence. . .that was wrong.

There are some diff. schools of thought on 1 Peter 3;18, 19.

One is that Jesus preached through Noah, before the flood, to those who were about to drown, His truth. I don't know about this, as this event occurred before the completed Work of Christ's crucifixion. If that were the case, to me, it would have read something like, "the Holy Spirit fell on Noah and he preached". Again I don't know here, not a Bible scholar.

Most commentators I have read, do believe that Jesus did descend into the prisons (note they are called "prisons", not to 'those being comsumed in the lake of fire') to preach.

For me, this story told in the context of, "once and for all" or "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God" (New King James), and then Peter going on to exhort us concerning the behavior and the suffering of a Christian, that it should be like that of Christ when He suffered, but shared Grace for some really bad sinners, says to me, that He may have actually gone into the "prisons" to peach His death. His death that finished all death, once and for all, no matter with side of the "gulf" or dimension they were located at the time. Then you have the tombs breaking open.

Jerry, what do you get from your "Strong's" ?

I agree with what Jerry has posted concerning if you die without Christ, you are consumed with fire and exsist no longer.

Some of MY thoughts on what I have felt the Holy Spirit has shown me concerning this;

The Holy Spirit is referred to as fire. Therefore if He lives inside of you, you have His Flame. So, as we are moved from this dimension into Heaven, the commuming Fire of the Holy Spirit is going to pass through our fleshly bodies. These earthly bodies, along with everything made of fallen materials, willl burn up. If the Holy Spirt is within us, we will be able to survive His Fire to go on to live in that dimension that cannot be existed in without a "new body".

I think Jesus was giving us this picture when He referred to us "building on sand", and then in "living in glass houses". When sand is put to fire it will become glass, then will shatter. Otherwise, if all we are made of are fallen materials, those materials that wiill burn up, then go into dust, ie nothing, to be scattered by the Wind of the Holy Spirit, there will be nothing left.

If the Holy Spirit is living in us, we go on in our true bodies In Christ, that have been made for us, as The Holy Spirit has shaped it, to be a living stone, a perfect part of the living Kingdom Of God.

Also out of this earthy dimension, time as we know it, does not exist.

Again these are my thoughts as I am not a Bible Scholar.

SH, again after reading what you have written, my other thought is. . . why are these preachers so threatened when someone simply asks for a reference. Why in God's Name are they spending so much valuable time, trying to "proof text" scriptures for their own agenda, then threatened, when simply asked for a referrence (one of their jobs) by one of whom, they are charged with caring for as Christ would. This make me so angry, I could spit.

Sorry I am ranting, but as Paul said ( this is out of context), beloved, these things should not be.

tvali

10-21-2006, 11:33 PM

if mankind is not a biological pc i think between them and u is connection and your mum can read your emailth throught your mind

Amy[/QUOTE]

Patty

10-22-2006, 06:05 AM

I think the fact that Jesus rose from the dead proves there is an afterlife.

Willow

10-22-2006, 06:30 AM

Funny how this post popped up to the top again. Somehow I'd missed half the replies. I'm really REALLY missing my mom lately. I dream about her almost every night.

InTheory

10-22-2006, 08:48 AM

DiligentLily

10-22-2006, 09:48 AM

Personally, I cannot imagine a loving father burning or torturing his child because he/she disobeyed. But like I said, you will find many Christians who will debate this opinion.

I don't know what happens after you die. I'd like to think that Jesus died to redeem mankind and open the doors to heaven - even for those who have never heard of Him and/or don't understand Him.

:cool:

Voyager and Jane (I can't figure out how to quote two people at once, or I would have grabbed some of Jane's) I am with you on this one. I just can't be sure any more. I used to be so sure of my theology, and myself, and then everything fell apart and that has opened me up to a lot of ideas I would never have entertained before. I have something like C.S. Lewis's idea of hell--it more like a place for people who just don't like it where God is. They could go to be with God if they want, but they don't usually want to . I don't know....

Jerry

10-22-2006, 10:56 AM

I tend to agree with Voyager-but I also don't cling to any belief in "inerrancy" these days...if most of us really believed everything the Bible said, we'd be in a sad state indeed (killing witches, stoning rebellious children, not allowing women to speak in church, telling slaves to be content, etc etc etc).

Dear Dan,,,
The biggest problem is under educated teachers intent on teaching "What" to believe,instead of teaching how to study the subject matter........When properly instructed as to historical context,and Hebrew literary form and structure,,,,,no one would come away from study believing in the twisted doctrine accepted in most churches today.......Trust me ,,,, :eek: :D What churches call "Bible Study" is for the most part a joke :mad: ;)
Love Jerry

InTheory

10-22-2006, 11:08 AM

Dear Dan,,,
The biggest problem is under educated teachers intent on teaching "What" to believe,instead of teaching how to study the subject matter........When properly instructed as to historical context,and Hebrew literary form and structure,,,,,no one would come away from study believing in the twisted doctrine accepted in most churches today.......Trust me ,,,, :eek: :D What churches call "Bible Study" is for the most part a joke :mad: ;)
Love Jerry

Good point Jerry-I guess that's what I mean by not clinging to inerrancy-when one does, one must accept abhorrent scriptures as "god-breathed."
If, rather, I approach scriptures in a more balance way (like you referenced, in historical and cultural context, etc), I can glean gems and precious truths.

Thanks!

-Dan

yeshua'smags

10-22-2006, 11:30 AM

Sweet Willow, I'm so sorry. I still have dreams about my Daddy too. He doesn't say anything, he's just there, which I think is pretty poignant. Maybe that is how they are after death. It is always comforting when I have a "Daddy dream", I feel like I've been with him.:o

Jerry

10-22-2006, 11:32 AM

Good point Jerry-I guess that's what I mean by not clinging to inerrancy-when one does, one must accept abhorrent scriptures as "god-breathed."
If, rather, I approach scriptures in a more balance way (like you referenced, in historical and cultural context, etc), I can glean gems and precious truths.

Thanks!

-Dan

One other interesting point Dan,,,,,this is cool,,,,:D In the "1611 King James Av" presented to King James,,,,In the letter to the King the translators do not claim that their translation is inerrant.They further claim no special inspiration.They simply state that the translation represents their best effort at accomplishing the task and urge King James to be diligent in his studies...So when one of these so called "Scholars" tells you that the translators were inspired,,,,,tell them they are confusing "Inspiration" and "Perspiration",and mentally add that guy to the list of "Idiots" that you have met :D
Love Jerry

Reg

10-22-2006, 12:12 PM

Good point Jerry.

Keep emailing your Mom Amy. I know it helps.

I see this has surfaced again. I have done a lot of study about this over many years. Looking at both/all sides of it. I still cannot say there is a definitive dogmatic answer. I know one thing for sure though. When we die we all will know then. Whether we know or not is not an essential for salvation.

Here's one article/study I did that helped me in this area. It is a basic area that helped unlock for me other parts to the age old question. What happens after a person dies?

As always, take what you want and leave the rest.

DO HUMANS BEINGS HAVE IMMORTAL SOULS?

In the Bible, life and death are presented as extreme opposites. Death is the absence of life. If we were to say, as many do, that death is only another variation of life, then we might as well say that black is merely another shade of white. But the issue is really so clear-cut, why is it that so many Christians see death as an instant transformation into one of two forms of life, a life of eternal joy in heaven, or a life of eternal pain and suffering in hell? Put simply, the Christian Church "borrowed" ideas from pagan philosophy over the course of several centuries after the death of the apostles. These concepts gradually overshadowed Bible teaching and the belief of the early Church.

The concept of the innate "immortality of the human soul" that eventually entered the Christian Church was the result of a long process. Pagan ideas, filtered through Greek poets and philosophers, found expression in the work of one of the most famous thinkers of the ancient world, the Greek philosopher
Plato. Under Plato the concept of the "immortal soul" was fully developed.

The world that Jesus entered was dominated by Greek culture. Rome ruled the world politically, but the fountain of knowledge was still Greece. Greek thought dominated the civilized world, and it was from this source that the Christian Church borrowed ideas about the "immortal soul."

Plato said that the human being is composed of two parts, an immortal soul housed inside a mortal body. Plato built his theory on an old Persian dead called "dualism." This idea claims that two forces, good and evil, have always existed and always will exist side by side in the universe. The invisible world of matter isevil. The invisible world of "spirit" is good. From this, Plato came eventually to believe in a good immortal soul trapped inside an evil mortal body. Death became a sort of liberation. The immortal soul, freed from the degraded body, can soar to the heights of bliss. Death became a "friend" in contrast to the Bible description of death as mankind's last "enemy." From this background, the Ch ristian Church eventually came to view death as the immediate release of the immortal soul (spirit) from the deceased body, on its
way to eternal reward or eternal damnation. Or, simply, when you die, your body returns to the earth and your soul goes immediately to heaven or to hell.

Is Plato's solution to the mystery of human life correct? Is it really in harmony with what the Bible itself teaches about the human "soul?" Is the human soul immortal in and of itself? Or does the Bible teach something entirely different? Let's examine God's word in the Bible.

Does Paul tell his friend Timothy that all men are immortal by nature?

1 Tim 6:13 ¶ I charge you before God (who makes all things alive) and [in the sight of] Christ Jesus (who witnessed the good confession Pontius Pilate),
14 that you keep the commandment without spot and without blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 For He in His own time will reveal [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 *who alone has immortality*, dwelling in light which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

The key phrase appears in verse 16, "who only hath immortality." Paul makes it clear that only God has immortality by nature. Paul tells Timothy in the verses that immediately follow to encourage the wealthy to live godly lives "that they may lay hold on eternal life." It is apparent that immortality is not
something they already have if they must "lay hold" on it. It is, of course, the gift of God. They may lay hold on it through faith in Jesus Christ as a gift.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but [B]the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What did Jesus say about man being naturally immortal?

John 6:53 Then Jesus says to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. (MKJV)

Notice that Jesus did not deny that humans could become immortal. But He did say that unless they were in relationship with Him, they could not be immortal, for they did not have that in themselves.

Where did Jesus say men and women could receive immortality?

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son of man makes alive whomever He will. (MKJV)

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. (MKJV)

It is clear that human beings are not immortal by nature. Nor do they
have something inside them (a soul) that is innately immortal. The Bible
says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." So then what is a soul?
(According to the Bible)

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." , K.J.V

Notice that man BECAME a living soul. It does not say that he RECEIVED a soul, but rather he BECAME a living soul. A human being therefore does not HAVE a soul, they ARE a soul. Two ingredients went into the creation of this living soul, the dust of the earth, and the breath of life. Stated as an equation, we could say, DUST OF THE GROUND & BREATH OF LIFE = A LIVING SOUL

What penalty did Adam face after he had sinned?

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you [are], and to dust you shall return.

Notice that God makes no mention of Adam's soul going anywhere when he returns to the dust of the ground. That is because at death, when the breath of life was removed, Adam ceased to BE a soul. In order for a soul to exist, two things must be present; the dust of the ground, and the breath of life.

How does Solomon describe the process of death?

Ecc 12:7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

Solomon also acknowledges that the body returns to the dust of the earth. But he also tells us that the spirit returns to God who gave it. Is not this evidence that something from within a man returns to coexist with God in heaven, even with the body lying in the earth? Is it not evidence that humans do have immortal souls? To answer this question, we must see how the Bible uses this term "spirit."

With what does Job equate the term "spirit?"

Job 27:3 As long as my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils,

The term "spirit" is clearly equated with the breath of life, or "spark of life" without which a human body is merely a corpse. God provides that spark, and if He removes it, a person ceases to be a living soul. Scientists have discovered that humans in fact run on electricity; low voltage to be sure, but electricity none the less. We are sustained by air. When the breath is gone, we are dead. The body may be preserved artificially, but the person (soul) is still dead.

What perishes with the body at the time of death?

Ps 146:4 His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

If humans had souls that continued to live after their bodies died, it could not be said that their thoughts would perish at the time of death. But according to the Scriptures, this is exactly what happens.

Also Ecclesiastes 9:5: backs this up.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Willow

10-22-2006, 04:55 PM

hornblower

10-23-2006, 08:47 PM

Yeah I know my Mom and dad see me Ill tell you why. I went to the gravesite. I like to go wish i could be there a lot more. Lots of people go and do sweet things for the grave and stuff..........nobody in my fanmily goes like ever Im the only one. Just like the only one that went to the hospital the only one that talked to them when they no longer conversed..........you know they like to dfo other things like sing and stuff..............I had God show me what to do.......
anyway it was raining really hard that was ok........I didnt care in fact it seemed to say what I wanted.......I had to go in for my annual cancer check.........that was ok it seemed to say what I wanted too........Oh Lord i missed them and still do they were my all in all...........they listened and loved me.......
So anyway I went out there and just howled big time!!!!!!! Who cares anyway its their grave you know?????????
Guess what I like old people and dead people..........just because they are gone doesnt make them GONE! Not to me they arent!
I was just howling crying up a strorm and I clearly heard my Mom say "do something Philip! Look at her youve got to do something!!!!!!!!!" Then I felt their arms around me comforting me telling me its allright the way they always did and would have done if they were there with me.

Yeah you betcha she sees you! I dont care what anybody says she sees you always just like God and the angels see.
Ok if the dead dont see then how come when Jesus died they came out of their tombs and roamed the streets of Jerusalem and many saw them!
Because they saw thats why! They saw and they knew and they heard................Christ died for them and they were free at last!

hornblower

10-23-2006, 08:55 PM

Hey Willow I would love to share dreams with you? I have a lot of them about my Mom and Dad. Brother too.
Now I dont spend all of my time like 'with' them you know what I mean? I know we arent supposed to have well like seances or whatever. Who needs them anyway? We have God to keep us in touch.
Willow...........God will wipe every single tear away some day and we will never cry again. He will give us everything even our loved ones. He will not withold any good thing from us Willow. I know He wont. The sucky place is here.
Well its not all sucky.......it was really pretty today and I heard the birds singing, my Mom loved birds. She would have loved your bird Willow. All of those beautiful colors.
I still cant look at her picture.
I cant go into her room even though i had too and I changed it and everything I cant go in there.
Some day Willow we will be free from this sadness.
Your mom would love seeing you and she does see you and she loves everything about you and everything she sees about you. Believe it its true!

hornblower

10-23-2006, 09:13 PM

Now ive read these other posts on this thread, should have done that in the first place..........kind of got lost there..........
If there is no hell and everyone ends up going to heaven, wouldnt we then have what we've got now? duh.....this place?
and wouldnt that be ducky, chumming it up with Charles Mansen and Hitler?
So?
All I know is that in the very beginning for me God gave me a dream for a week every single night. One scene was of Jesus dying on a cross, the other scene was me dying on a cross, and the third scene was a hand coming out of a dark fiery pit on the ground trying to get me and pull me into it.
I didnt like any of it..............didnt want any one of those things!
but it wasnt a preacher making me see it and i sure didnt know much about churches at the time. I had NEVER read the bible at all.
So whatever floats your boat brothers? Personaly Ill take the life insurance, the cost is heavy but Ill take it all the same thankyou.

Willow

10-24-2006, 06:36 AM

Actually Hornblower... you were right on target with what was on my mind! I know mom's in heaven. That's not a worry to me. You know... mom did see that bird. I dont' think she liked it much. She said my artwork looked dark and depressed. Oh well... it's my artwork and it didn't bother me that she didn't like it.

I love that you had the feeling of your parents embracing you when you cried at their grave. That's cool. Mom's body went for medical research. I won't have anything until they send me the ashes. BLEH. I'm glad she donated her body to science though. It was what she was all about. She was always involved in medical studies and donating her time and body while it was alive. It seems appropriate that her body went to research after it died too.

Anyway... You can read some of my dreams - a little outdated - at my blog. http://dreamscicle.blogspot.com

Now ive read these other posts on this thread, should have done that in the first place..........kind of got lost there..........
If there is no hell and everyone ends up going to heaven, wouldnt we then have what we've got now? duh.....this place?
and wouldnt that be ducky, chumming it up with Charles Mansen and Hitler?
So?
All I know is that in the very beginning for me God gave me a dream for a week every single night. One scene was of Jesus dying on a cross, the other scene was me dying on a cross, and the third scene was a hand coming out of a dark fiery pit on the ground trying to get me and pull me into it.
I didnt like any of it..............didnt want any one of those things!
but it wasnt a preacher making me see it and i sure didnt know much about churches at the time. I had NEVER read the bible at all.
So whatever floats your boat brothers? Personaly Ill take the life insurance, the cost is heavy but Ill take it all the same thankyou.

yeshua'smags

10-24-2006, 06:58 AM

Thanks so much you all... I guess I'm still a bit overwhelmed and my heartfelt need at the time i posted this was to wonder whether my mom could still see me. No one really knows the answer to this. I guess it really doesn't matter. Actually... it would be best if she didn't see most of what I do... LOL!

To continue emailing her seems like a good idea. Also recording dreams about her seems to help. I need to start blogging my dreams again.

I heard it takes about 3 years to grieve over a death. I'm almost to year one. I'm sure I'll be processing here a lot over the holidays. That's when everything fell apart. My parents moved to the new place at thanksgiving time. Actually... it all started falling apart early summer of 2005 when dad and mom signed the contract to move to Ohio. But... that's all history now.

One really cool thing that's come out of this is that my relationship with my dad has cemented. I call him twice a day. I used to only call once a week and my mom talked to me mostly. There's a new bond that wasn't there before with my dad.

Love you all.

Amy

Well, it's been five years since my Daddy died and I still have days where I miss him so much, I almost cna't breath. I can't sit and think about the night he died either, or the funeral. It makes me VERY closterphobic! I remember sitting at the graveside wanting to put my hands over my ears and scream during the Lord's prayer. It was the darkest time of my life.
The intensity lessens though. Like, I only feel that way if I really think about that week.
That is so cool that you and your dad are so close now. It's like looking over the land after a huge forest fire. You see all the devistation, but if you look closer there are all these little green saplings growing up out of the ashes. God always lets there be new life after devestation.:cool: ;)

Jerry

10-24-2006, 09:26 PM

Jo Jo

10-24-2006, 11:26 PM

I saw a book today in Starbucks and I forget the name of it... it was a novel... but what it's about is if you could spend another day with someone who is gone who would it be? I don't know anymore details than that... but it got me thinking. I don't have anyone who is really close to me who died. Well, grandparents... and aunt. My closest person was a dear friend who led worship while I played the piano. We would practice and just had so much fun. He was so dear and died of a heart attack when he was 39. He had a defect.

But is this pathetic... when I saw that book... (you guys are going to think I'm just awful)... all I could think about is just one more day with my little black dog Raven. I know that is so lame, but no one was as good as her. We had a secret code. Oh just to have one more day, to have her look at me and to hold her little body and to run around goofy like we used to. It's just hard to explain... there would be nothing like it. eek What a horrible book to put right there in Starbucks when you are supposed to be able to hold it together and order coffee. ha ha :rolleyes: ;)

Willow... all I have to say is I think it's the most wonderful thing that you email your mom. I just don't think I could survive yet without my mom and she's 78. I'm such a ninny. You are just my hero for as wonderfully as you do. That just made me bawl when I read that. WOW.

Jerry

10-25-2006, 02:43 AM

But is this pathetic... when I saw that book... (you guys are going to think I'm just awful)... all I could think about is just one more day with my little black dog Raven. I know that is so lame, but no one was as good as her. We had a secret code. Oh just to have one more day, to have her look at me and to hold her little body and to run around goofy like we used to. It's just hard to explain... there would be nothing like it. eek What a horrible book to put right there in Starbucks when you are supposed to be able to hold it together and order coffee. ha ha :rolleyes: ;)

Dear Jo Jo ,,,,
Not pathetic at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I got a hunch Raven is waiting for ya ;)
Love Jerry

yeshua'smags

10-25-2006, 06:06 AM

YAY JERRY! I'm so gald you htink animals go to heaven!!!!! I know this is stupid, and I may sound like I'm 5, but I really hate when people say animals don't go to heaven. They have personality and they are all different. Which has to mean they have a soul, no? This is one of those things that really pisses me off!! :mad: :D One of the many many things.....:D
And I don't want any wise guys saying dogs do but cats don't!!:D ;)

Jo Jo

10-25-2006, 12:09 PM

Oh, yay... That's so nice Jerry. You'd think if heaven is full of things that bless us, and God, too... that they would be there. I can't wait to see her again. :)

eek... I should have cut back on the hamsters, though, when I was younger. ;)

Reg

10-28-2006, 10:29 AM

DO HUMANS BEINGS HAVE IMMORTAL SOULS?

I am bringing this up again because I have come across some scriptures that make my last post even clearer. So here is a followup to this post. These scriptures show that Eternal Life is a gift and is not something we have inherently as only God does.

John 5:26
26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin death(not life), but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Joh 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us: everlasting life.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I have written these things to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, a[I]nd he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

John 5:21
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes on Me has everlasting life.
58 This is the Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate the manna, and died; he who partakes of this Bread shall live forever.

Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

John 17:2 (NIV)
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls [are] Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they [are] Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.
20 The soul that sins, it shall die...........

Yes indeed..I..not eternal life, even if it is in hell.

Katie

10-28-2006, 02:22 PM

Reg,
That's very interesting.

I've always considered heaven as eternity spent in God's presence. I'm not exactly sure of the location, might even be here in a restored earth.

I've always considered hell as eternal separation from God.

Having been taught that we are all immortal souls destined for eternal life or eternal damnation, now I'm wondering.

As believers we receive eternal life and the promise of heaven through Jesus Christ. Are you saying that those who don't accept that gift of life just die and get buried, the end? If so, then what is hell?

I know that much Christian teaching of heaven and hell is more traditional than scriptural, but I don't really know which part of my beliefs about this are scriptural.

The scriptures that you presented seem very convincing. What would be the arguments against interpreting the scriptures in the way you have? If you don't mind playing devil's advocate to yourself. :)

I'm asking because I am intrigued by what you've shared and wanting to understand it better.

Reg

10-29-2006, 06:04 AM

Reg,
Having been taught that we are all immortal souls destined for eternal life or eternal damnation, now I'm wondering.

Are you saying that those who don't accept that gift of life just die and get buried, the end? If so, then what is hell?

snip

The scriptures that you presented seem very convincing. What would be the arguments against interpreting the scriptures in the way you have? If you don't mind playing devil's advocate to yourself. :)

I'm asking because I am intrigued by what you've shared and wanting to understand it better.
Yes Katie, a lot of what we came to believe is traditional. Scriptures say something different. Scripturally, one word used for hell simply means, the grave. Gehenna that Jesus describes was a place outside of Jerusalem where they burned their garbage. Everything has been burned up - completely destroyed. The garbage no longer exists.

Here is another study I did on different views of hell.

Common Ground on Hell /Annihilation

ESSENTIALS

1) There must be punishment for sin, and for those who ultimately reject the grace of God.

2) Those who ultimately reject God will be eternally separated from Him.

3) There are degrees of punishment according to the sinfulness of the person.

4) The punishment must be sufficient in order for it to satisfy God's perfect justice.

5) There is no escape from this punishment. It is eternal.

Some may think that the above conditions cannot be satisfied by annihilation. Here are some areas where evangelicals disagree:

DISAGREEMENT

1) How long God's wrath lasts. Traditionalists believe that the wrath of God is eternal against the wicked. Annihilationists believe it lasts as long as God determines in order to achieve perfect justice, then annihilate them.

Though there are some scriptures which indicate some beings living in eternal torment, most definitely demons, there does not seem to be explicit indication that the punishing of humans goes on forever. Annihilationists would believe that the "results" of God's wrath or punishment last forever. Traditionalists believe that the action of God's wrath continues though.

2) What is perfect Justice for sin against an eternal God. Traditionalists believe that sin has infinite consequences requiring an infinite punishment while annihilationists believe that sin has been committed in the temporal, therefore temporal punishment is sufficient.

What is interesting is that this issue is described no where in the scripture. This is philosophical coming from both sides as they try to build on their premise. The scripture no where says, sin deserves infinite punishment, nor does it say that sin deserves temporary punishment. It says that sin deserves punishment, period!

3) Eternal punishment requires the person to be conscious in order to receive the punishment. This is held by traditionalists, while annihilationists believe this is not required for the punishment to be eternal.

I think that a good analogy is capital punishment. The act of capital punishment takes place for a moment in time, while the results last forever. The same could be applied to eternal punishment. People are eternally separated from God which is eternal punishment. The person does not have to necessarily be conscious to receive the results of God's judgment, although there would be a time of conscious punishment to the degree of their sinfulness in the body. So therefore, the punishment can be thought
of as a one time event, while the results last for eternity. Consciousness is not required.

SOURCES

One thing I have yet to see is those who now hold to the traditionalist position have not really done any research into evangelical scholarship on annihilationism. Most of these have assumed that HWA was wrong when they studied evangelical material, but never considered that some evangelicals present a strong case against the traditional position.

At the same time, some hold to the annihilationist position without having researched the evangelical scholarship on their view, nor have they thoroughly investigated the opposing view.

On both sides, there are emotional issues. Some annihilationists hold to their view because of the emotional difficulties of accepting or even considering the traditional view.Traditionalists many times, refuse to research the annihilationist position because they feel that it jeopardizes historic orthodoxy and is therefore a non worthy cause, or else they feel that it threatens evangelical theology and makes it more liberal.

None of these excuses are valid. The understanding of hell does not lie in emotional arguments or in historic orthodoxy. It lies in the words of scripture alone. To properly understand hell, we must stick to what the scriptures say, not traditions, or emotions, or what the majority believe.

Everyone should put in their time and study the issue from all sides. It is not fair to limit the annihilationist view to HWA or cults. Nor is it right for people to accuse traditionalists of shoddy scholarship based on Greek suppositions.

Unfortunately, people will not be able to divorce their prejudices to the opposing view very easily. I believe that only God can bring us all to the proper understanding, which I believe He has in the essential elements mentioned above. How we understand the details does not change the reality of what they really are.

But, we as humans always have to know the details. If we must, then we can look to a few sources. I found these on John Torgerson's Christianity Examined webpage, which is part of the WCG Baraboo Wisconsin webpage.

Summaries of Six Books on Hell and Immortality

Compiled by Doug Peitz, Baraboo and La Crosse, WI Worldwide Church of God Pastor

Four Views on Hell, edited by William Crockett, Zondervan Publishing House, 1992

This book has four men defend four different views of hell: the literal, the metaphorical, purgatorial and conditional immortality (annihilationism). It is quite good.

(My comments - probably not the best defense of annihilationism, but good for the other views)

The History of Hell, by Alice K. Turner, Harcourt Brace Publishers, 1993.

This book is a secular account of the history of the idea of hell over the ages, and is highly informative. The author does not believe in any kind of hell. It helps one get a secular perspective on the subject.

Universalism and the Doctrine of Hell, edited by Nigel M. de S. Cameron, Baker Book House, 1992.

This book deals with a variety of issues, but has two very good chapters on conditional immortality, one for it and one against it, defending traditional views on hell. Conditional immortality is defended by John Wenham, from Oxford, England. Good book.

The True Image: The Origin and Destiny of Man in Christ, by Philip Edgecombe
Hughes, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1989.

Unfortunately this book is out of print, but you can probably get a copy at your library or through the interlibrary loan system. This book is a comprehensive exposition of the gospel from the perspective that we were created in the image of God. It has chapters that deal with the issues of the immortality of the soul, the intermediate state, and conditional immortality. Hughes is an Anglican scholar, and believes in annihilationism. This book is superb from beginning to end!

(my comments - Hughs believes in a conscious intermediate state for the righteous, soul sleep for the wicked until the resurrection)

Whatever Happened to Hell, by John Blanchard, Crossway Books, 1995

This book is a full-fledged defense of the traditional view of hell, and tries to answer all the arguments of all other views, including annihilationism. It is very thorough and polemical.

(my comments - Edward Fudge responds to this book in his updated book below)

The Fire That Consumes, revised edition, by Edward Fudge, The Peternoster Press,Box 300, Carlisle, Cumbria, England.

Fudge, an elder with the Churches of Christ, gives a very thorough and scholarly defense of the conditional immortality position. The forward is written by F. F. Bruce, who appears to be an agnostic on the subject based on what he says in the introduction. This book is published in England, but can be ordered from Moyer's Family Bookstore in Portland,
Oregon. 1-800-262-6625.

(my comments - I like this book the best. It book deals with all the relevant scriptures, looks at all of the typical objections to annihilationism.)
http://www.amazon.com/Fire-That-Consumes-Historical-Punishment/dp/0595143423/sr=1-1/qid=1162128370/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6739116-6491227?ie=UTF8&s=books

John Stott also believes in annihilationism.

Annihilationism today

Today many traditionalists claim that the doctrine is most often associated with groups descended from William Miller and the Adventist movement of the mid-1800s, including Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other Adventist groups. However, a number of evangelical theologians, including Anglican John Stott, open theists Clark Pinnock and John Sanders, as well as Philip Edgecombe Hughes and others have offered support for the doctrine, touching off a heated debate within mainstream evangelical Christianity.

Since the 1960s, Annihilationism seems to be gaining as a legitimate minority opinion within modern, conservative Protestant theology. It has found support and acceptance among some British evangelicals, although viewed with greater suspicion by their American counterparts.
http://www.theopedia.com/Annihilationism

Jerry

10-29-2006, 07:36 AM

Very,very, very,GOOD post to katie Reg ;)

Katie

10-29-2006, 05:15 PM

Yes Reg, thank you so much.

It really surprised me that I never considered anything other than what I'd been taught. Your post was like a lightbulb opening my mind to other possibilities. That has happened with many of my beliefs over the last couple of years.

I'm not sure which way I would go with this, most likely I will relegate it to the list of many things we can't know for sure. However, it's good to be aware that there are valid reasons for other beliefs in this area.

Thanks again! :)

hornblower

10-30-2006, 09:41 PM

I want to say in this thread i miss my dad and his wisdom. One of the best things he ever taught me was HB people are not thinking about you............they are not concerned about anyone really but themselves, thats who they are thinking about. Lol this really has always helped me.
My dad, My mom.......my brother, my sweet chanelly pie.............and the others...........thankyou for this thread.

Willow

10-31-2006, 06:13 AM

Just wanted ya'll to know I'm reading every reply here in detail. I go to reply and my brain goes blank... Done this several times. I guess it's a hot spot for me or something. Getting close to holidays and I'm dreading it. Hopefully, my mind is making it worse than it really will be... what with losing mom last year and all.

Pinkie Pie

10-31-2006, 01:48 PM

Anna Marta

10-31-2006, 02:05 PM

Hi Pinkie,

You are right the bible does talk about familiar spirits. Today we call them demons.

I personally believe that God has his ways of giving us comfort when we are grieving and in need. Only He knows what we need to help us deal with loss. So yes, I think we have dreams and I think writing letters is a good way to work out grief... If our loved one isn't able to see or read them, God can and he'll take care of the rest. There are somethings that, as the psalmist says, are just too wonderful for me to know.

But hearing voices? I'd be real careful with that stuff. There are some things I just wouldn't play around with. Satan is a sneaky b*st*rd

Anna Marta

hornblower

10-31-2006, 07:37 PM

I was amazed to see this thread (I've been on vacation, haven't had a chance to get on in about a week).

Hope it's not too late to put in my two cents worth. Reason I was amazed is because I have really been wondering about this lately. I stumbled upon a website called ghost-voices.com that has recordings of unexplained voices taken at gravesites, etc. I've listened to them over and over and am convinced that something paranormal is going on. I also am convinced of their authenticity because before I was saved, a friend and I would go "taping ghosts" and on 2 occasions picked up a distinct voice that could not be explained away as background noise or a human voice or interference from the tape, etc. When I would let others listen to it with no explanation or preparation for what I was playing, they could hear the voices too.

When I listened to the recordings on this webiste, my mind was whirling. I was asking God, "What are these voices?" Because I do believe in the eternal existence of the human soul after death, either in the eternal presence of God or the eternal separation from Him. But I also wonder if they can see us and see what is going on. I know I've read accounts of people who almost died and then were brought back, and how as they were dying they were "outside" their bodies and could see everything that was going on, and what everyone was saying and doing. So who knows? I also know the Bible talks about familiar spirits (sorry, the exact scriptures escape me.....) that can mimic the personalities, tones of voice, of people. But this subject really intrigues me........

I dont want to pursue this but have you seen White Noise? The movie. I watched it not long ago. Its sort of a scary movie about this but anyway its an actual occurance that people do record evidently. So its real. Now i dont know this but I remember studying in science that all noise and all sounds are still in the air. Sound doesnt travel as fast as light. Even light I think is still in the air and I was told long ago that some day all noise would be played back in some way. In other words it would not be unheard of to be able to actually grab Abraham Lincolns speech to the union out of the air. Its still there! Saved somehow if only science could find out how to distinguish between one sound and another.
Now heres an interesting thing. I think of that scripture where Jesus says the day will come when everything will be revealed and man will be judjed for every word that comes out of his mouth. Isnt that right?
So anyway I think theres more to it than ghosts speaking. I dont know of course but its interesting. I know I heard my Mom speak to me and my daddy too but it was like inside my heart. Like revealed somehow to me that they are watching caring for me and love me, dont want me to be so sad about them because they are in heaven.
I have many people in my family that are not saved. My whole christian life has almost been ruined by that and has been saved by that too.......its a deep prayer burden for me. I gave it mny all and Im so glad i did. My brother was saved and so was my dad......a real miracle. Never give up, never, even if they have died already and it doesnt appear that did accept Christ. I still think things may have happened that we will not know until we get there. I have met people that actually were in the process of dying and God got a hold of them while they were in the air, as it were, flying to their ultimate demise, they hear God calling to them and they get saved, so anything is possible for those who believe.
My brother made it by the skin of his teeth or so it seemd to me. His mind eaten up with tumors and his lungs. He died on Christmas eve. Three days went by and as I sat there numb on my couch not really knowing where he was????????my daughter came to me and said Mom here come I think you need to take a warm bath and she drew my bathwater for me. As I soaked in the tub the tears started to pour down as i heard my brother clearly say to me........"so why are you having such a hard time believing i am here!"

I saw him take the master carpenters hand.....the nailed hands......my brother was a carpenter..and then the Lord let me know that he was in heaven caring for his baby girl Sunshine.........as well as little children and little animals. He had an assignment to do this from the Lord it was his work there in heaven to experience child like joy in order for him to receive a complete healing for all of the compulsive overwork he had done on the earth. Sunshine was his baby girl that died only a week old.
I have dreams of my brother and so does his wife. She is not a beleiver and neither or any of my brothers children. These dreams i have as well as his wife has are him trying to reach her for Jesus. She is so on his heart to believe in His now Lord and savior.
I cannot proove any of this but i do have some rather amazing proofs of it being true...........for instance the young man that was asleep in his room the night he died said he saw babies and little children come down to get him and take him up. I didnt know this until the funeral........4 days after my visitation. Then I met the plumber that led my brother on the front porch of his home in prayer to accept Jesus as his savior.......my brother had told me a plumber had prayed with him but he didnt say anything about it. You have to understand my brothers brain was impaired by the tumors that were removed.
God answers our prayers, sooner or later they will come to pass, maybe not the way we expect but it will happen.
I dont seek to talk to my parents or my brother but I dont run away either and none of this scares me. Jesus talked to Moses on the mountain. Moses was certainly dead. I think the reason God says not to do it is that some people use this, as do demons, to ensnare people with the wrong motives in their hearts, like to make money.
I dont have my family on a pedestal........I love them.

Pinkie Pie

11-01-2006, 06:50 AM

That is such a beautiful story about your brother. I am glad you got the reassurance you needed concerning his soul. That is how I am about some loved ones that have died, and I had witnessed to them but they didn't seem to receive Jesus, at least not around me. But your story gives me hope.

And it occured to me about sounds staying in the air forever. I've heard of sailors out at sea, where there is little interference of "noise" and where they have super sensitive radio equipment, pick up radio broadcasts from 40 years ago because the radio waves don't go anywhere, they just bounce around in the atmosphere forever. So I wondered if perhaps these recordings I heard were picking up "old" sounds.

I think you and Anna Marta are right, that it is better to just avoid this stuff, especially since I used to do it as a hobby (!) and it introduced all kinds of demonic activity into my life.

hornblower

11-01-2006, 10:22 AM

Hi pinkie pie. I would stay away from it. I stay away from a lot of stuff now even the stuff i was so convinced was ok. I dont know if thats good or not but at least its something i know about. The spiritual world (I think) is all around us and is very real but since we are physical not spiritual yet. I think its wise to stay away from it and not go too far. I have had many experiences most of thenm bvery rewarding and I usually dont share them with anybody. People dont want to hear about them and I think that is strange that they dont but hey whatever floats your boat.
God is Spirit and we should worship Him in Spirit and truth so I dont know what that means.......................does anyone?
I know paul wanted to have experiences too it sounded like he did and he had many so did John, at least I would imagine he did since he wrote revelations. Sounds like he was in the spirit to me, talking to angels seeing them too and everything imaginable. I get tired of never being able to be real about any of it but thats always the way it has been for me. Nothing happens now so??? Hrad for me to even hear God speaking to my own heart any more.
Its been this way ever since the abuse and much of it I DID to myself. I just thought ok ENOUGH already! Ive had it with all of this. But in truth I miss everything..........it makes me so sad that i no longer see anything when i pray of hear anything or seldom do I get into the word and learn any more like I used too.
Sorry im carrying on like this but its been so long. Its all very sad for me. I often think about the scripture where the virgins have to be ready and have their lamps filled with oil. To me I read that and this is just what I am thinking you see? I think well oil thats got to be the HS right? My friend she goes to charismatic churches and she says its the anointing and she was telling me the other day she could barely stand up next to me in those days the anointing was so strong.
I honest to gosh dont know what she is talking about. Never have! She went to this missionary school and stuff and she and her boyfriend they are all into that junk. I dont go into it at all. It doesnt seem right to me to believe that about somebody that they have the anointing????????????
Like its about a person? Thats not sounding right to me. I was just loving my sweet Jesus..........now i feel like I have left him and i cant get back to him. I think I dont want too somehow. But i miss Him so much. I used to feel so loved and so cherished by Him now Im just lonely all of the time. Then i come here and bug everybody. It seems to me i just drain everybody and Im ashamed of the way I am now.

Hope 98

11-01-2006, 10:57 AM

God is Spirit and we should worship Him in Spirit and truth so I dont know what that means.......................does anyone?
<snip>
I was just loving my sweet Jesus..........now i feel like I have left him and i cant get back to him. I think I dont want too somehow. But i miss Him so much. I used to feel so loved and so cherished by Him now Im just lonely all of the time. Then i come here and bug everybody. It seems to me i just drain everybody and Im ashamed of the way I am now.

I believe that we are physical and spiritual - as human beings created in the image of God. I believe that the verse you are talking about means that we are to worship him honestly from our heart in our physical reality, and with the spirit inside us that is connected to His Holy Spirit.

It sounds to me like you may be missing that Spiritual connection. Don't take that to mean that you aren't Christian or anything like that. I think you have a legitimate reason to be wary of what you used to feel, because it can be misused and counterfeited. BUT I think it is real and for you, most of the time, it was a positive, Holy experience.

Just my opinion right now.

yeshua'smags

11-01-2006, 11:34 AM

I believe in ghosts. :eek:

( Gasps from the crowd....music plays da da daaaaa........):D

I just don't believe that they are the spirits of people who were once here on earth. Anna's right they are demons, and they can take on whatever form they want. Satan is going to do whatever he can to suck you into his realm and make you fall. And if you go looking for this stuff, he's gonna make sure you find something so he can mess with your head.

Reg

08-23-2008, 06:21 AM

Going back over my posts looking for something, I ran across this thread.

Not exactly a comforting one....Dead People.

yeshua'smags last post prompted me to bring this one up again. I know a lot of the newer ones here haven't read this. There's a lot there so take your time. It's so hard to unlearn error. I know how hard it was for me. I was forced to go back and really study scripture and pray for understanding. I didn't want to be deceived again. Initially, when I exited, I rejected a lot of what I was taught. I embraced orthodoxy and what was taught traditionally in mainstream Chrisitianity. I found later I could not accept some of it when I went back to the Bible and study the scriptures myself trying not to let my past teaching influence me. I wanted to know what did the Bible really say about these things. Not what others told me it said. I've had enough of that. God gave me a brain and intellect. Along with His Holy Spirit which is called "The Spirit of Truth" I came to understand the Bible truths for myself a little at a time. I had to know for myself. I heard so many different views. I wanted to be grounded in what I believe God was saying in His word. It does say....

2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So that was my goal.

I hope what I've written here sheds some light on this age old subject that everyone wants to know.

As always, "Take what you want and leave the rest."

ex-shep

08-23-2008, 08:58 AM

Thanks for bringing it forward. I can relate to trying to unlearn the old tapes. It is hard work.

Willow

08-23-2008, 06:41 PM

WOW! That was a blast from the past for me. I didn't even remember writing that one. It was shortly after my mom suicided. 2 years later I can pretty well say that mom is not looking down from above. I do believe she's in a happier place though... wherever that place might be.

Visits to my dad still throw me in a psychological tailspin. I am just trying to pull out of one this weekend from my visit to him last weekend. I talked to my sponsor about it today. I'm really going to have to find the strength to overcome my feelings so I can more fully concentrate on Dad and his needs at this late age. It's a real challenge and I will have to deal with some of my feelings over the whole ordeal. I'm ashamed of how I feel sometimes and don't want to admit it. The anger towards God is raging. Feelings of abandonment from him flood over me and I find words coming out of my mouth like, "God hates me" and I make God say all kinds of horrible things to me in my imagination. There's got to be some way to overcome the trend toward self destruction. What the heck makes someone like me want to inflict pain on myself? I wouldn't hurt a fly otherwise. It's only me I want to hurt.

Boy Reg... this one really opened a can of worms for me.

Dead people. I don't believe they are with us any longer... but their memory lives on well after they are gone.

riverdove

08-23-2008, 09:17 PM

Willow, what you shared here reminds me that even men of faith like C.S. Lewis and many others wrestled with those kind of thoughts in their human suffering. In one of his books, "A Grief Observed," he supposedly wrote those tumultuous thoughts about God after the death of his wife. Here's an editorial review of the book found in Amazon. I don't have this book myself, but I'm planning to get one soon. Even though I have not experienced the grief over the death of someone so dear like a mother, I certainly have experienced the grief of many losses--of friends, relationship, my entire social network etc etc through SA. So, I can relate ...

http://www.amazon.com/Grief-Observed-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652381

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
C.S. Lewis joined the human race when his wife, Joy Gresham, died of cancer. Lewis, the Oxford don whose Christian apologetics make it seem like he's got an answer for everything, experienced crushing doubt for the first time after his wife's tragic death. A Grief Observed contains his epigrammatic reflections on that period: "Your bid--for God or no God, for a good God or the Cosmic Sadist, for eternal life or nonentity--will not be serious if nothing much is staked on it. And you will never discover how serious it was until the stakes are raised horribly high," Lewis writes. "Nothing will shake a man--or at any rate a man like me--out of his merely verbal thinking and his merely notional beliefs. He has to be knocked silly before he comes to his senses. Only torture will bring out the truth. Only under torture does he discover it himself." This is the book that inspired the film Shadowlands, but it is more wrenching, more revelatory, and more real than the movie. It is a beautiful and unflinchingly honest record of how even a stalwart believer can lose all sense of meaning in the universe, and how he can gradually regain his bearings. --Michael Joseph Gross --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

From AudioFile
Lewis wrote this near the end of his life after a dramatic and unexpected romance that ended in the death of his new wife from cancer. The work stands in contrast to THE PROBLEM OF PAIN, which he wrote twenty years earlier. The contrasts are striking, both in style (clinical in PAIN, transparently personal in GRIEF) and listenability. Containing much that is difficult to follow audibly, Pain lends itself much more easily to being read and pondered, while Grief exhibits Lewis's ability to capture the ear, as demonstrated in his many radio broadcasts. Ralph Cosham gives a fluid and evenhanded reading to this soul-baring expos&EACUTE; of emotion itself and the man who wrote about it. S.M.M. © AudioFile 2006, Portland, Maine-- Copyright © AudioFile, Portland, Maine --This text refers to the Audio CD edition.

Willow

08-23-2008, 11:09 PM

Hope 98

08-24-2008, 05:57 AM

Wow riverdove... I read the inside snippet and does it EVER reflect the way I feel today! But it's been 2 years... I wonder when I'll be able to grasp happiness again. It's eluded me for a long time now... I get little moments of it and realize that other people live like this... happy and pain free. I think maybe my turn will come later in life rather than earlier. The seasons of grief all ran together into one long half a lifetime for me.

You know, I think that may be where we all may be mistaken. Maybe there aren't people out there who are honestly living "happy and pain free".

Maybe we are all hiding to one degree or another how unhappy and hurt we are. Aren't we all told to smile? Aren't we all told to "not focus on the negative"?

We have prescribed limits on how long we are supposed to grieve a loss, or struggle with a crisis, and if we come close to that limit, we get pills to fix us.

Yeah - in my family & church, there are times the message is out loud - don't talk about what is hurting you, don't acknowledge being angry about anything - that's "unchristian". Other times, it just goes underground.

So - now that I've had a run of crap circumstances, I have to come here to type things out or pay a counselor to listen to me express my pain & anger. Well - it is better than nothing.

Willow

08-25-2008, 08:03 AM

Janice

08-25-2008, 12:02 PM

the timing of this is uncanny. Found out that yet another friend of mine comitted suicide friday.

Anna Marta

08-25-2008, 01:02 PM

Janice, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

(((((love ya)))))
AM

Hope 98

08-25-2008, 07:27 PM

Maybe you're right Hope. They sure do claim that they are living happy and pain free though. One such person described it as feeding the white dog in his mind instead of the black dog. Maybe it's that simple... think?

nope - I really don't think it's that simple at all - unless you just don't have any problems more significant than hangnails & stubbed toes.

hornblower

08-25-2008, 09:16 PM

I have had some experiences with my dead family members and friends also as a christian..........I know its supposed to be forbidden but blah blah opoopoo on you whoever says it.............sorry I know what I know and I am who I am and I know I am born again so there.

If you will remember Jesus talked to dead people on the mount, He talked to Moses and Elijah and they talked to Him. So if they are born again too maybe its ok, I dont know, all I know is that the people I talked too I have it from God that they are there.

I am usually praying or asleep when it has happend. I talked to them and I heard them talk to me. I dont make a habit out of it and I dont (most importantly get payed for it Im not that stupid) but when it has happened it has meant the world to me.

Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.

I think its important to realise that the dead are NOT gone! They are just not here in the same way we are. I believe they are asleep but thats not what God led me to believed about my brother who died from cancer. He was up in heaven taking care of babies who have died and puppies and such as that. It was his new type of work that God had assigned him too in order to be healed from his long life of misery down here........he was to play with the children.

My best friend died of cancer also when I was a new christian and in a vision the day she died with no one telling me it had happend, I was praying and I saw a band come to get her, they were sort of dancing when they came and it was a happy thing not sad like it was to me.

I have written letters to my mother and father and my brother some of them very angry...........more to get my feelings out than anything. I will never know if any of it is real or not, until I am there and God shows me like so many other things, but what I do know is that its ok.

Dont let anyone condemn you for it.

Grieving is a beautiful thing and the dead should be remembered thats what I think. They are not dead in my heart, love conquers everything and I loved and still love these people and God honors love always.

Also God told one of the brothers in the garden of eden, I always get them mixed up that the dead brothers blood was calling to Him. I always think of the blood as the life of the person...........

I know we should not actively seek to talk to the dead by a medium and I dont ever do that.........why should I anyway?

I talk to Jesus............to a lot of people He is dead...........aint so!

Reg

08-26-2008, 03:30 AM

HB,

I can understand your sentiments towards your dead relatives. It is comforting. I like to believe my dead loved ones are in God's hands.

About Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus at the transfiguration. It was a vision of the future.

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead."

This scripture proves it was a vision because Jesus said He had not ascended yet.

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.’"

This scripture also proves that it was a vision of the future because Jesus said he was not yet glorified. How could the disciples possible see Him in His glorified state if He was not yet glorified?

Joh 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet [given], because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven—to the glory and honour that awaited him there.

That's enough for now. I don't want to get into it any more deeply here. This is not the place for that. If anyone wants the complete explanation of this PM me and I will send it to you.

hornblower

08-26-2008, 10:04 PM

No it wasnt!

PatriciaM

08-27-2008, 01:12 PM

Willow,

I lost my mom a year ago tomorrow (8-28) and I can relate to your grieving. I miss her so much, and wish I could have experiences where she visits me and we talk back and forth, and it's not just me talking.

My sister says that she has dreams where mom visits her and she talks to her like mom's really there for real, like God sent her down to visit. I wish I would have dreams like that. Sometimes I think "Why is mom talking to my sister but not to me?" I wonder, ok what's wrong with me spiritually, what am I doing wrong? I realize God works with different people different ways, but this is a puzzle to me.

Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone, Willow...there is someone else on here that knows what you're going through.

PatriciaM

08-27-2008, 01:17 PM

Amen, Hope 98, I feel the same way! Why do we have this unspoken pressure to be happy and positive all the time? Why do we have to pay a counselor or shrink to talk about our hurts and painful experiences? Why can't the church listen and counsel? Why are they so threatened by negative emotions?

My questions exactly, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one!

Willow

08-28-2008, 09:51 AM

I'm sad to hear that you lost your mom Patricia. It's been over 2 years for me... but it still hurts. Something every day brings hot tears to the surface. It's not nearly as intense as it was the first year though. Thanks for reaching out :)
Amy

PatriciaM

08-28-2008, 10:20 AM

Thanks, Willow, it's a HUGE comfort to find people who have gone through it themselves and know what I'm going through. None of my friends have lost moms, so they really can't relate. That makes a person feel very alone. Thanks for being there!

riverdove

08-28-2008, 07:56 PM

Willow, you said it was two years ago that your beloved mother passed away and you're still grieving over the loss of her. To me, two years isn't a long time and if both of you have had a thick bonding, I'm guessing it's going to take longer ... This is what makes us human and crying has got some kind of therapeutic effect to our human soul. When others around us can feel our pain and sorrow, there is an immediate emotional connection. Jesus is God and yet He wept when he came to know that Lazarus died. It's strange to think why he would weep when He knew the next thing He was going to do was to bring Lazarus to life. To me, the reason for His weeping was because he could feel the pain of Lazarus' family members because of His compassionate nature. This really helps me understand the tender nature of God and when we say His mercy is new every morning, it makes a brand new meaning. Today, we live in a society where weeping is seen as a weakness. That's what my stoic (or rather dysfunctional) sibling told me and she often criticizes me for feeling my emotions. I think NOT! I think she has let a part of herself die off due to our family dysfunction. That's another long story, but I think the ability to feel for the loss of your dear mother is a precious emotion to have because of your deep love for her. I think it helps us to connect to people in pain and most of all to understand Christ's suffering for us.

hornblower

08-29-2008, 03:08 AM

I just had the most wonderful dream about my parents both of them. They were so alive and yet even in the dream they were dead and my Mom wise as she always was and so quietly she knew it was only like a visit for me to see them once again. I hugged them and they were together and oh my gosh it was so wonderful.
Im sorry but things like this happening that bring me so much joy and comfort and love and faith...........these things have the mark of God on them no matter what anyone thinks.

I cannot be 100% sure my parents and my brother are in heaven any more than I can be 100% sure I will be in heaven or that there is any heaven at all anyway? I can be sure though that I have had this dream and it brought me some measure of love from them. Love conquers all. Love covers a multitude of sins. One of the Holy Spirits main ministries in this life of ours is to comfort us.

What is a sin is to seek the dead like Saul did. He did it for gain not for solace. As he did everything. I am no king. Im just me longing for my Mom and Dad and the talks we used to have and the love we two shared.

If I get to heaven and its all a lie oh well??????????
If God isnt a loving God that cares for me and is who He says He is and everything I have heard from Him wasnt Him at all and the 'vision' that I had of Jesus and it definitely was a vision make no mistake about that I knew it when it happened to me. 33 years ago it was and Im still believing after everything that has happened to me too. All because of that vision.

I wasnt seeking god because I wanted to be a king or be rich or have anything at all except I was seeking Him because I was lonely. I wanted answers to my life. I wanted and needed to be loved and understood.

If God is lying to all of us and its all a crock then we shouldnt be afraid if its all a lie............there is absolutely no hope at all for anyone if its a lie.

We are all done for anyway.

Reg if it says that, thats cool, it doesnt matter to me. I believe you about it. Jesus knows what Jesus says. He is the word! Whats true is true, no one can deny the truth in the end of it all.

All I know is that I figure that Jesus had to be conversing with someone when He went up to the mountains to pray especially His dad right? Didnt He or do you not believe that?

I dont go to mediums and I dont have anything to do with witchcraft believe me...........my brother and his wife were so far gone into that stuff. Im very well up on the new age stuff dont worry about me.

If my parents and all of my family are not there and I am the only one its not going to affect me one bit because I know God will wipe away every tear I have ever had in my whole existence. God is my real Daddy.

Since he is my daddy though I also believe in that scripture "You will be saved you and your whole household"
I choose not to understand it with my mind but to believe in it with my heart, its my faith in Him, that God will do this for me because he is able too and because He loves me that much.

If He doesnt its because it was the best thing there is to do. It would not be the right thing.............God doesnt make booboos.

Reg

08-29-2008, 04:34 AM

HB,

I realize the love you had/have for your Mom and how much you miss her.. Also Amy's and the longing you both have to see them again. I believe you will at a time in the future at God's chosing. From what scripture says, now is not the time. I don't want to add any further burden on you in this regard. And yes, the HS does give us comfort in this life. He also is the Spirit of Truth. It's the truth that I seek, after being deceived and believing lies. I do not want to be deceived again. I have diligently studied over many years to glean the truth from scripture, not what someone else says. I rely on the HS to lead me in this. Sometimes it says things I do not like. The truth can be a difficult thing to accept, especially when it hurts and conflicts with what we want to believe.

As I said before, I will send you in a PM the rest of what I came up with if you want. You don't have to believe it and my purpose in saying this is not to push or coerce anyone to believe me. Just to consider what scripture says. Ask for the HS to lead you into all truth.

One very important thing to understand is whatever you chose to believe in this matter, it is not a salvation necessity. Why it seems so hard to glean the truth from scripture for so many is somewhat of a mystery. Why God choose to write the Bible the way he did and in cases like this to not make it perfectly clear and straightforward, I can only speculate.

Mark 4:33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear [it].

The Bible is our textbook and gives us the answers to life. It is incumbent on us to study it for ourselves and hear what God is saying to you personally. It is the foundation of our belief system and we will need a good foundation as we continue to move into an era of great deception. I've written about this before and I do not want any of my dear friends here to be deceived again.

So I encourage you all to study the scriptures to see if these things are not so as the good Bereans did.

Ac 17:11 These were more fair–minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily [to find out] whether these things were so.

Also remember to...

2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

From my years being here, many/most of us are like this because of what we have been through. My prayer is that we can go onto perfection as mature Christians.

Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary [principles] of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Willow

08-29-2008, 07:25 AM

riverdove... thanks so much for the encouragement. I do tend to be a bit impatient with myself in the grieving process.

Willow

08-29-2008, 07:27 AM

Hiya Reg... You know what's weird? I really don't want to see my mom again. Isn't that odd? Maybe I'm angry with her... not sure what gives because we really were close. hmmmm.

Although I appreciate your words on doctrinal purity... I just don't have the energy. I'm too busy trying to just "function" lately. I'm so sorry :( I really would participate if I thought I could handle it without tailspinning.

HB,

I realize the love you had/have for your Mom and how much you miss her.. Also Amy's and the longing you both have to see them again. I believe you will at a time in the future at God's chosing. From what scripture says, now is not the time. I don't want to add any further burden on you in this regard. And yes, the HS does give us comfort in this life. He also is the Spirit of Truth. It's the truth that I seek, after being deceived and believing lies. I do not want to be deceived again. I have diligently studied over many years to glean the truth from scripture, not what someone else says. I rely on the HS to lead me in this. Sometimes it says things I do not like. The truth can be a difficult thing to accept, especially when it hurts and conflicts with what we want to believe.

As I said before, I will send you in a PM the rest of what I came up with if you want. You don't have to believe it and my purpose in saying this is not to push or coerce anyone to believe me. Just to consider what scripture says. Ask for the HS to lead you into all truth.

One very important thing to understand is whatever you chose to believe in this matter, it is not a salvation necessity. Why it seems so hard to glean the truth from scripture for so many is somewhat of a mystery. Why God choose to write the Bible the way he did and in cases like this to not make it perfectly clear and straightforward, I can only speculate.

Mark 4:33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear [it].

The Bible is our textbook and gives us the answers to life. It is incumbent on us to study it for ourselves and hear what God is saying to you personally. It is the foundation of our belief system and we will need a good foundation as we continue to move into an era of great deception. I've written about this before and I do not want any of my dear friends here to be deceived again.

So I encourage you all to study the scriptures to see if these things are not so as the good Bereans did.

Ac 17:11 These were more fair–minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily [to find out] whether these things were so.

Also remember to...

2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

From my years being here, many/most of us are like this because of what we have been through. My prayer is that we can go onto perfection as mature Christians.

Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary [principles] of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,