Quality of church leaders

[profnachos]

From what I have seen, many, if not most people who go into ministry do so because they find themselves devoid of skills and talents to do anything else, which they spin as a "call." Hence they aren't exactly the cream of the crop - "I'm too dumb to do anything, therefore I am called to ministry." How sad.

It sounds harsh, but it shows. Once they find a niche in church which they thrive in, and get respect which they wouldn't outside their little world, they become protective of their little turf, and thus become spiritually abusive.

This is not to say I am desirous of seeing intellectual heavy weights from Ivy League schools fill ministry positions. Absolutely not. God chooses the foolish and weak of the world to shame the wise and strong. Jesus disciples weren't exactly the Harvard PhD's of the day.

From the land of the obvious, what is desperately needed is humility which the church sorely lacks. One needs to be humble reglardless of whether one is at the high or low end of the intellectual scale. Before God, the difference between a Harvard PHD and an illiterate oaf is negligible.

I am mentioning this because when it comes to people in ministry, there seems to be an inverse relationship between their credentials and humility. Some of the most humble and unassuming people I have met are Wycliffe Bible Translators. You need a PHD in Linguistics to be a translator. And most of the pompous hot heads in ministry I have met are intellectual midgets with a chip on their shoulder.

Okay, off the soapbox...

[jane]

I am mentioning this because when it comes to people in ministry, there seems to be an inverse relationship between their credentials and humility. Some of the most humble and unassuming people I have met are Wycliffe Bible Translators. You need a PHD in Linguistics to be a translator. And most of the pompous hot heads in ministry I have met are intellectual midgets with a chip on their shoulder.


I am laughing so hard that I just may pop a seam in my side.

Yes, I agree.

Now, I visited Yale seminary a few years back....and what I saw there was disturbing. Seemed that a few of them were SO educated that they missed the simple things of God.... we sang from a hymnal that changed the words, FATHER SON and HOLY GHOST to the CREATOR< REDEEMER and SUSTAINER...... now, that is a difficult translation when you are used to old hymns...
try a few and see if it is not a tongue/mind twister!

But yet the biggest mistake that I have seen is in those churches where the HOLY SPIRIT raises up a pastor almost over night.

Unquipped, not trained, not much life experience...and you are right. IGNORAMUS at the pulpit. At to that equation an insecure man looking for approval and POOF you have a "attention seeking fool" at the pulpit also known as a Pompous ass.


it gives a whole new meaning to the blind leading the blind, and by the way, HOW educated was Adolf Hitler, anyone know?


keep on getting on your soap boxes, they are fun diaglogues.....

jane

[Jerry]

and Jerry,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,smiled knowingly :D

[Katie]

I agree somewhat. However, I think the issue isn't necessarily a lack of intelligence or talent, but rather a lack of self-esteem and relational skills.

Weak and insecure leaders are all about control and performance. They can get on stage and be in control of the entire group, rather than having to get down on the same level as everyone else and deal relationally with people as a peer.

They can put on a great show of intelligence or anointing. However, if you look at their lives, often their personal relationships (wife, children, friends?) are in poor condition.

If I've learned anything from all of this, it is what to look for in a "leader." As profnachos said, a true leader is someone who has learned humility, who is able to serve and love without constantly pointing to themself and their position.

[mstar]

uh, maybe a lack of authenticity. You know if you are going to take the position of being a part of what Jesus is doing, caring for his flock, it helps if you have actually had and continue to have a relationship with Him.

[jjc9497]

Hi Prof,

I had to laugh at your original post. My husband attended a well known and respected seminary. To help pay for school, he worked in the maintenance dept at the school. They soon found out he could fix anything, do wordworking, plumbing, you name it. One day he was working on one of the school vehicles in the parking lot. One of the professors saw him and came over and said, "Why are you here at seminary? You have so many talents, why are you planning on being a pastor when you could do so many other things?" My husband and I at the time found this to be a very disturbing conversation. If God "calls" it shouldn't matter what talents you do or don't have--God will give what you need. I agree that humility and relaional skills are very important. I guess my favorite qualities in a pastor are humility and teachablility. If he has these, almost any problem or deficiency in education can be dealt with. The disciples would never make it into today's seminaries.

BTW, if I'm ever on a search committee, this will be MY question for the candidate.

Most pastors who fail in ministry get in trouble because of either sex, money or power. Which of these would you most likely have a problem with and how are you dealing with it? Do you have, or have plans to put together, an accountablility team to oversee you in this and any other area you struggle with?

I think the answer, or non-answer, to that question would be quite revealing.:D

[Carmen]

Hi Prof,

I agree with you, and those are good thoughts, Katie. Putting on a show is easier than really dealing with people and their problems one-on-one. I think that the whole system should be turned on its head. Those that have proven themselves as humble and serving over time, that have a natural understanding for others, should be allowed to go to seminary. I think that they should have learned another profession beforehand, like the disciples already had done even before they met Jesus. Some were fisherman, Paul was a tent-maker. They had some life experience that had already tested their character, and Jesus formed them even more. Even the seminaries should probably rethink their curricula.

One ex-seminarian told me that they were teaching ways to manipulate people (not just how to convince them or speak to them with authority) in the seminary he went to, and he told me that he has heard the same thing from others. I asked for his notes from that time, but they were already thrown away. I'd love to get hold of some of this kind of material, I think that people should be warned about it.

Carmen

[profnachos]

Thanks. And thanks everyone for your comments, and I will address those as well.

Carmen, I agree. I wish there were provisions for those well into their adulthood to go into ministry. There are people in their 40's and 50's in "secular professions" who would do very well in relating to people and thus serving God in full-time ministry, but they are seen as "too old."

The ministry school nearby has two very distintive age groups - kids in their early to mid 20's and retirees in their 60's or older. Two different age groups, but the same idea - nothing better to do.

Hi Prof,

I agree with you, and those are good thoughts, Katie. Putting on a show is easier than really dealing with people and their problems one-on-one. I think that the whole system should be turned on its head. Those that have proven themselves as humble and serving over time, that have a natural understanding for others, should be allowed to go to seminary. I think that they should have learned another profession beforehand, like the disciples already had done even before they met Jesus. Some were fisherman, Paul was a tent-maker. They had some life experience that had already tested their character, and Jesus formed them even more. Even the seminaries should probably rethink their curricula.

One ex-seminarian told me that they were teaching ways to manipulate people (not just how to convince them or speak to them with authority) in the seminary he went to, and he told me that he has heard the same thing from others. I asked for his notes from that time, but they were already thrown away. I'd love to get hold of some of this kind of material, I think that people should be warned about it.

Carmen