Pity

[jane]

I meant to post this here, so here is a reposting, sorry.:(

Last night as I was thinking about the people that we left behind in our church-

the leaders and their family, I was actually feeling pity.

This comes and goes....but when it comes I am surprised by it because I think I actually might feel a little bit of compassion for them.

It is like we've talked about before, the feeling of seeing the Great OZ behind the curtain as a short little man.

When my pastor came to my house (the first time in the entire time we were at the church and it was because we were leaving.....)

he was so short! I was stunned. From the pulpit he looked so tall, smart, educated and eloquent. When standing face to face; he was smaller than a mere man. His criticizing others, speaking off the cuff about his views (without a pre planned sermon) really revealed how uneducated, polished and pathetic he really was.

At first I was mortified, felt like I was following a wolf in sheeps clothing- still think that way.

But every now and then, I feel much like I do now.....did you see the Disney movie The Little Mermaid?....all the hopeless mermaid and mermen seeking things that they felt made them imperfect...beauty instead of ugly; skinny instead of fat....and so on.........they sold their soul to the wicked witch to get their earthly desire for a brief time before they became her slaves in bondage.


That is how I see this family now at the church that I left.

They get worldy church people approval, money, fame, worship and all the things that this world says is good- and they tack on "in Jesus' name" to help them feel like they are doing God's will....

and in actuality; they themselves are being decieved by a greater more wicked force....and a spell is cast over all of them.

It is so very very shamefully sad. If I spend much time thinking about it, I would cry. What wasted souls............what wasted lives...........all those resources and what they could really do for the kingdom could've been amazing.......


thanks for letting me think outloud.

love,
jane
__________________
http://septembersrose.blogspot.com

[Jerry]

Boy your hard to keep up with !!!!! LOL :D

[profnachos]

Jane,

I hope you don't mean that his physical shortcomings made him a wolf. Hey, I am a short guy myself, which I can do very little about, unlike my character defects.

This is one major problem I see with evangelical churches. Most pastors of mega churches are GQ like men. Almost all Christian CD's are adorned by young and pretty artists. We glorify all things that the secular world does - youth, beauty, and weath, which makes us hardly different from the world. In fact, sometimes we come across as more secular and worldly than the secular world.

So I hope what mortified you was his spiritual abuse, not his physical and mental short-comings.

I meant to post this here, so here is a reposting, sorry.:(

Last night as I was thinking about the people that we left behind in our church-

the leaders and their family, I was actually feeling pity.

This comes and goes....but when it comes I am surprised by it because I think I actually might feel a little bit of compassion for them.

It is like we've talked about before, the feeling of seeing the Great OZ behind the curtain as a short little man.

When my pastor came to my house (the first time in the entire time we were at the church and it was because we were leaving.....)

he was so short! I was stunned. From the pulpit he looked so tall, smart, educated and eloquent. When standing face to face; he was smaller than a mere man. His criticizing others, speaking off the cuff about his views (without a pre planned sermon) really revealed how uneducated, polished and pathetic he really was.

At first I was mortified, felt like I was following a wolf in sheeps clothing- still think that way.

But every now and then, I feel much like I do now.....did you see the Disney movie The Little Mermaid?....all the hopeless mermaid and mermen seeking things that they felt made them imperfect...beauty instead of ugly; skinny instead of fat....and so on.........they sold their soul to the wicked witch to get their earthly desire for a brief time before they became her slaves in bondage.


That is how I see this family now at the church that I left.

They get worldy church people approval, money, fame, worship and all the things that this world says is good- and they tack on "in Jesus' name" to help them feel like they are doing God's will....

and in actuality; they themselves are being decieved by a greater more wicked force....and a spell is cast over all of them.

It is so very very shamefully sad. If I spend much time thinking about it, I would cry. What wasted souls............what wasted lives...........all those resources and what they could really do for the kingdom could've been amazing.......


thanks for letting me think outloud.

love,
jane
__________________
http://septembersrose.blogspot.com

[InTheory]

Good post and thoughts, Jane.

I hope I can get there someday (feeling pity rather than anger or rage).

God bless you and your family.

-Dan

[Jam Night]

I really REALLY feel you on this Jane. I am having trouble organizing my thoughts because it has been a long day, but you have summed up one of my major 'issues' or 'motivators' in life. When you see the resources we have as Christians - meanign the church at large - and not just financially but emotionally, mentally and socially (NOT to be confused with political power - which I think the church should be entirely seperate from) it can be agravating. We get so caught up in so many games and trivial - carrot chasing mindsets that we end up being virtually ineffective and are quickly becoming the laughing stocks of the educated World - Christians are the new minstrels - the new vaudeville.

[jane]

I hope you don't mean that his physical shortcomings made him a wolf. Hey, I am a short guy myself, which I can do very little about, unlike my character defects.

oh gosh, ABSOLUTELY NOT!


What I meant is that he was up on stage, un approachable, larger than life. Perfect hair, expensive clothes, a new pair of hundred or more dollar shoes every few weeks....

and he did things like hire someone to evaluate him....so his podium was custom made and he did things to make himself look the "look" of marketability. He always wore a thick mustache....but shaved it off and had a thick "uni" brow but had that done professionally and did things to make himself look different than what he was.


The point that I was making was that he was trying to be the GQ marketable guy- and when he was at eye level, one on one with out a "script" that was proof read.... he was just a human.

and worse, when he spoke off the cuff, he was critical of other christians in ways that made me remember 6th grade- you know that last time that it was socially acceptable to not like people for things that they can't control- and speak outloud as if they are loosers. (he often said, "they don't 'get it' like they were dumb).


You couldn't have a different opinion- for example; I am still a democrat ( in the closet democrat during the clinton administration) ....which in our church was a RARE commodity. So while at my table, while explaining to him WHY I held some democratic social policies- which was backed up with a history of grass roots volunteering and research on my part- I was told that " I didn't know what I was talking about- if I took any time to research politics and understand their platforms than I would never consider even joking about being democrat."

So, here I am with a bachelors degree and some grad work done- and I was treated like an ignorant stupid dufus for just having an opposing opinion.....

and his degree was from a 2 year bible college that has since folded and he is still working on a 4 year degree through the mail- so I am the dumb, uneducated one?

What came out of his mouth about other members of our church was a shock to us- and it revealved what was in his heart- and all that more saddening because he was trying so hard for a stage image.

That is what I was referring to. I got nothing against short people- especially now because you are short Nachos-

WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN? GOT A GIRL I SUPPOSE AND YOU'RE TOO BUSY FOR US???

GLAD YOU'RE BACK- Missed you....hoped you had a great holiday.

Love,
jane

[gwen]

What I meant is that he was up on stage, un approachable, larger than life. Perfect hair, expensive clothes, a new pair of hundred or more dollar shoes every few weeks....



Our former "pastor" was very image conscious like that too! He always dressed to the "hilt", even if he was just wearing jeans. One time, his family was moving, and he had all the women helping them to pack and clean. (Actually the congregation moved his family while he and his family were on vacation! :eek: ) I got the closet with his shoes in it. I couldn't believe the shoes that man owned!!! Remember Mrs. Marcos from the Philippines???

He had a plexiglass pulpit made for himself when they were all the "fad", and then later he had another pulpit made that was similar to T.D. Jakes' pulpit! (That one took several people to move!!!)

Our former "pastor" had no formal college/seminary training. He even bragged that he didn't need it...that he had studied the Bible for 4 hours a day when he was a teenager, while others were doing typical "teenager" things, he was home studying his Bible. (Though he did take time to go to the discos!...that's another story!) He also relied on the "prophetic anointing" to preach! :rolleyes:

My dad has a saying about our former "pastor", as well as others like him. He says, "He learned how to NOT work for a living"! :p

I understand your feelings of pity. Though I don't excuse our former "pastor" of the abuses that he commits, I also see that he is so filled with insecurities. He used to project his insecurities onto me and tell ME how insecure that I am! (And I do battle insecurities...but now I recognize that he does too...probably more than I do) I, like you, Jane, have even thought of the "Oz" analogy regarding him since we've left.

Differing opinions??? Totally unacceptable in an authoritarian environment! It doesn't matter how much research that you've done on a subject or even how knowledgeable that you are about it--you could have a doctoral degree, if you don't agree with the pastor's viewpoint, you're the one who is wrong!!! :confused:

I have a step-son and my former "pastor" gave an "apostalic" word to me during a Sunday night service that I was jealous that my oldest son was not my husband's firstborn!!! The thought had never even crossed my mind before he brought it up! It bothered me so much that I went to him on the following Wednesday night after service and told him that I did not feel that way toward my step-son. He told me that I was wrong and that he was speaking "apostalically" and the "apostalic" word is never wrong! He was basically saying that I couldn't even disagree with him about my own personal feelings!!! That I didn't know my own feelings!!! :eek:

Like you said, it is shamefully sad...a lot of wasted lives and talents...:(

Gwen

[Jerry]

Our former "pastor" had no formal college/seminary training. He even bragged that he didn't need it...that he had studied the Bible for 4 hours a day when he was a teenager, while others were doing typical "teenager" things, he was home studying his Bible. (Though he did take time to go to the discos!...that's another story!) He also relied on the "prophetic anointing" to preach! :rolleyes:


IF THE BLIND LEADS THE BLIND WILL NOT BOTH FALL INTO A DITCH ??????

Angels and Ministers of Grace Defend Us !!!!!!

Love Jerry

[mary]

[QUOTE=jane]

What I meant is that he was up on stage, un approachable, larger than life. Perfect hair, expensive clothes, a new pair of hundred or more dollar shoes every few weeks....

and he did things like hire someone to evaluate him....so his podium was custom made and he did things to make himself look the "look" of marketability. He always wore a thick mustache....but shaved it off and had a thick "uni" brow but had that done professionally and did things to make himself look different than what he was.


The point that I was making was that he was trying to be the GQ marketable guy- and when he was at eye level, one on one with out a "script" that was proof read.... he was just a human.

and worse, when he spoke off the cuff, he was critical of other christians in ways that made me remember 6th grade- you know that last time that it was socially acceptable to not like people for things that they can't control- and speak outloud as if they are loosers. (he often said, "they don't 'get it' like they were dumb). [QUOTE=jane]

Ouch! - does this ever remind me of our own PiP!!! He used to make some (usually erroneous) point of doctrine from the pulpit, do this "fake chuckle" and say, "Do you get it?" He told me privately that he considered most of the congregation to be dunces... :mad: There are way too many of these "shepherds" out there, fouling pulpits...

mary

[profnachos]

I understand it better now. Sorry for sounding snotty :( .

Actually, most models don't really look like how they look on magazine covers in real life. One super model remarked that she wished she looked like "that."

So who wrote the pastor's sermons? Somebody else must have. And you were involved in leadership, but had not seen the pastor in person before? Was this a mega church?

Kudos to you for standing your ground on political issues. Although I was not a Democrat, the biggest issue for me was the pro-Israel stance. People were very passionate about it, and it was impossible to "discuss" the issue with them. When their opening statement was "why are you against the chosen people of God," well, it was impossible to expect reasonable discourse with that kind of premisis.

I DIDN"T GET A GIRL! I'M 39 YEARS OLD, AND I DON'T DATE 25 YEAR OLDS (18 and 19 year olds - different story :D. J/K).

You need to update your blog once in awhile. Have you seen my latest entry? No, it's not a blonde joke even though people think it is.

oh gosh, ABSOLUTELY NOT!


What I meant is that he was up on stage, un approachable, larger than life. Perfect hair, expensive clothes, a new pair of hundred or more dollar shoes every few weeks....

and he did things like hire someone to evaluate him....so his podium was custom made and he did things to make himself look the "look" of marketability. He always wore a thick mustache....but shaved it off and had a thick "uni" brow but had that done professionally and did things to make himself look different than what he was.


The point that I was making was that he was trying to be the GQ marketable guy- and when he was at eye level, one on one with out a "script" that was proof read.... he was just a human.

and worse, when he spoke off the cuff, he was critical of other christians in ways that made me remember 6th grade- you know that last time that it was socially acceptable to not like people for things that they can't control- and speak outloud as if they are loosers. (he often said, "they don't 'get it' like they were dumb).


You couldn't have a different opinion- for example; I am still a democrat ( in the closet democrat during the clinton administration) ....which in our church was a RARE commodity. So while at my table, while explaining to him WHY I held some democratic social policies- which was backed up with a history of grass roots volunteering and research on my part- I was told that " I didn't know what I was talking about- if I took any time to research politics and understand their platforms than I would never consider even joking about being democrat."

So, here I am with a bachelors degree and some grad work done- and I was treated like an ignorant stupid dufus for just having an opposing opinion.....

and his degree was from a 2 year bible college that has since folded and he is still working on a 4 year degree through the mail- so I am the dumb, uneducated one?

What came out of his mouth about other members of our church was a shock to us- and it revealved what was in his heart- and all that more saddening because he was trying so hard for a stage image.

That is what I was referring to. I got nothing against short people- especially now because you are short Nachos-

WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN? GOT A GIRL I SUPPOSE AND YOU'RE TOO BUSY FOR US???

GLAD YOU'RE BACK- Missed you....hoped you had a great holiday.

Love,
jane

[Doug64]

Well, they have an image to maintain............represent Christ, you know.
Can't drive around town not looking prosperous (blessed), so an expensive car, well tailored clothes (we were told to buy the best we could afford), and a nice home were requisites.

They could afford these things because the membership faithfully paid tithes and gave offerings so they could live in the style to which they had become (or wished to be) accustomed.

While I understand this to a point, many pastors have gone to the extreme. Their wealth often becomes as important or more so than the job their supposed to be doing. We heard tales (unsubstantiated) that our former pastor had gold plated faucets in his house, and that he drank the best wine.

BTW - prof nachos - what does age have to do with haveing a 'girl?' You certainly aren't too old. Now me - if I should become single - I'm beyond hope. LOL!

Doug

[Jerry]

BTW - prof nachos - what does age have to do with haveing a 'girl?' You certainly aren't too old. Now me - if I should become single - I'm beyond hope. LOL!

Doug

Whats a girl ?????? :D

P.S. Oh wait !!!!! I remember now !!!

[mstar]

Although I was not a Democrat, the biggest issue for me was the pro-Israel stance. People were very passionate about it, and it was impossible to "discuss" the issue with them. When their opening statement was "why are you against the chosen people of God," well, it was impossible to expect reasonable discourse with that kind of premisis.


Thank you. At last someone addressing this mentality of "America has been judged by 9/11, hurricanes, whatever because America did something against Israel, God's chosen people" ; a false mind- set that is in many of our churches.

I have friends and family members that I can't get through a conversation without this type of dialogue. They won't accept a "no comment" , or a "lets talk about something else". . . instead, the pressure is on to agree. This has hurt some of my relationships.

The Body of Christ, His Blood Bought Church are His chosen people wherever they live.

It seems to me, when the church moves away from Christ's gift of grace and more toward legalism, then progresses on to a hierarchy within the church, there appears to be a move towards this mentality of a "chosen" physical land of Isreal.

Thank you for allowing me vent on this one.

[profnachos]

Thank you. At last someone addressing this mentality of "America has been judged by 9/11, hurricanes, whatever because America did something against Israel, God's chosen people" ; a false mind- set that is in many of our churches.

I have friends and family members that I can't get through a conversation without this type of dialogue. They won't accept a "no comment" , or a "lets talk about something else". . . instead, the pressure is on to agree. This has hurt some of my relationships.

The Body of Christ, His Blood Bought Church are His chosen people wherever they live.

It seems to me, when the church moves away from Christ's gift of grace and more toward legalism, then progresses on to a hierarchy within the church, there appears to be a move towards this mentality of a "chosen" physical land of Isreal.

Thank you for allowing me vent on this one.

You are very welcome, mstar. I know that the pro-Israeli stance has now joined the set of "unnegotiable" fundamental doctrines in some conservative evangelical circles. In other words, it has now become as essential as the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some preachers have loudly declared that we will be judged on the final day based on the degree to which we bless Israel. Funny considering that the pro-Israel passion is confined pretty much to North America. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I can never forget another pastor loudly speaking of how the close relationship between the United States and Israel is divinely sanctioned. Why? Check out how Jerusalem is spelled.

Jer-USA-lem! Note the middle three letters - USA!

I went back to the church I used to attend a few Sundays ago. I guess I wanted to feel the presence of God after having been away from it for months. That Sunday, they had people who had returned from an Israel trip give reports from the pulpit. Jeez, did it have to be that particular Sunday?

After they raved about how they would never look at Scripture the same way, the pastor spoke of a "ministry" dedicated to providing winter clothes for Israeli soldiers deployed to patrol the Gaza Strip. He felt pity for this "beautiful young Jewish girl" having to serve as a soldier because of God's enemies preying on the Chosen People of God.

Oh how about those Palestinians? Oh, I forgot. They are the enemies of God (note sarcasm). How about beautiful young Palestinian girls, pastor?

I was pissed. Why did they have to pick that particular Sunday to do this? My first time back in about 5 months? Or perhaps this was what they did every Sunday.

In one of our "debates," someone asked me why I believed that God had "abandoned His people."

Oh I don't know. We have this thing called the gospel of Jesus Christ which is available to everyone including Jews. So why that makes me so anti-semitic for believing that is beyond me.

[Carmen]

I know where you're coming from Profnachos. Just because I don't share some of the same opinions I don't fit in anywhere either. I don't like the ultra-liberal end of "your god is my God, we are the wooorld, we are the chiiildreeen" and I can't stand the ultra-conservative end that leaves just about everyone out because they aren't perfect enough. Am happy that I don't fit in with the neo-evangelicals or ultra-fundies anyway. With such friends, who needs enemies?

Hi Jane,

I can relate to you, too. I seem to be like a pendulum going back and forth between anger, disgust and pity when it concerns the guy that SA'd me. I did forgive the guy, but the bad feelings don't go away just because of that.

Carmen

[jane]

I was pissed. Why did they have to pick that particular Sunday to do this? My first time back in about 5 months? Or perhaps this was what they did every Sunday.

maybe it was a little gift from heaven-

had you walked in, had a GREAT service, you would've questionned yourself for questionning them and started returning.....

or that is what I would have done.

thankgod it was right up front so you would not waste any more time or feelings there....

jane

[jane]

Jer-USA-lem! Note the middle three letters - USA!

just another one of those moments when I am stunned by blatant ignorance- and WHY do people follow such ignorance????


I remember being in 8th grade at an AOG church when the pastor talked about California going to fall into the ocean by an earth quake- "just a matter of time" after all they named Los Angelos; LOST ANGELS!

I remember laughing outloud.....because it means city of angels!!!!

and then being stunned by the agreeing heads in the congregation....

so much for New England being an area of the educated I thought!

This was back around 1980!



-and oh yeah, I agree I wouldn't date a 20 something year old either....

need a little more wisdom, practice, and patience; that is for sure.

jane

[jane]

not a mega church-

a mega church wanna be.


Yes, I did see him before this.....but he was always "running" or sitting behind his big strong desk that must have had a bigger chair....

we had premarital counseling.....but again, he was mostly behind the desk, sometimes he would come around and pray with us.

after we were married, I would often sit on the floor in his office when we talked because I had a baby crawling around while we were talking so I guess in that sense, it was also my fault.

He often had us talk to other's in leadership because he was setting the stage for when we were thousands.......

He was too busy doing more spiritual things like preparing the sermons.

After his sermon, he would fly from the pulpit into a small room where the "care team" would bring him all the new people to introduce him too then he would fly down the hall of the children's church (which was restricted) to get to his office before people would "swarm" him. He wouldn't talk to anyone before or after the sermon because before the sermon would interfer with his connections to the "spirit" and after he couldn't because he was drained from the power of the sermon leaving him.

so yes, he was basically unapproachable to even those in leadership- but remember we weren't in the "CORE leadership" which was restricted to family memebers and maybe 4 others. Those were the people who really "arrived" and funny, I was close friends with them and they thought that they hadn't arrived yet and didn't feel approved by him either.

The elder- whose wife was my best friend (and the pastor's wife's sister- remember too the pastor's wife's mother was the administrator of the whole church)--- told me one day that her husband was shocked to find out from the Pastor's wife that he was the pastor's best friend....

so it was basically disfunctional where the "Top guy" was worshipped, a relationship with him or his approval was coveted and it looked like people were "in" who still felt insecure and "out".

I remember one day sharing with a friend, who was aspiring to leadership, that I felt "on the outside looking in" and she was surprised. SHe said, "jane, you're kidding, you are always at their house (the elder and his wife and the pastor's mother in law lived in the same house) and you are family??


wow, the things I could've told her like when my friend, the elders wife, invited my husband and I to their home for christmas eve dinner. Every christmas eve the entire "family" went to her house. 8 couples with numerous children, all but one couple members and leaders- were there. My friend told me the next day that she couldn't invite me again because someone (we now assume the pastor) felt uncompfortable with church people there....that the holiday was a day to get away from them............

made me feel rejected.

and honestly- EVERY day was a day that they wanted to get away from church people so why the heart of a pastor if you want to get away from the people so badly????

jane

[mary]

Rabbinic Jews are no more "God's chosen people" than any other non-believing group is. They've departed from and rejected the promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They reject their Messiah. Modern-day Israel is mostly full of rabbinic Jews, but there are some 80 congregations of Messianic Jews there and about 12,000 believers. The numbers of Messianic Jews are growing, here and in Israel and all over the world, and I praise the Lord for that. I also praise Him for new Arab believers. (Has anyone ever seen the video, "Forbidden Peace," put out by the Jews for Jesus? I saw it a couple of months ago: it's stunning.)

As to Jews and whether their special relationship with God endures, I humbly accept that Genesis 12:3 and its promise to Abraham (who was still Abram then) are still "out there," as are John 4:22b and Romans 9, 10 and 11. I do believe that Romans 1:16 carries an imperative with it to us who are born-again believers. I've spent years witnessing to Jews and while I believe that the Lord provides the increase, what the Lord has permitted me to see with them has been a sheer blessing to me, especially because I have some Jewish ancestry myself. Currently, we're attending a Messianic synagogue on Saturday mornings for Shabbat services and regular, Protestant services on Sundays.

I pray for all non-believers, Gentiles and Jews, that the Lord would save them, for there is no hope for any of us without the Lord Jesus Christ. After all, in Him, there is "neither Greek nor Jew..." (Colossians 3:11.)

Interesting discussion here...

mary

[Willow]

I remember one day sharing with a friend, who was aspiring to leadership, that I felt "on the outside looking in" ...

Boy oh boy did that strike a chord! It never mattered how close I was to the family. I think the pastor's wife and kids even felt this "outside looking in" feeling. Such a pity.. such a smokescreen! People pedalled all the harder to try to get on the inside. What a surprise to get to the inside and realize there isn't an inside!

[mstar]

You are very welcome, mstar. I know that the pro-Israeli stance has now joined the set of "unnegotiable" fundamental doctrines in some conservative evangelical circles. In other words, it has now become as essential as the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some preachers have loudly declared that we will be judged on the final day based on the degree to which we bless Israel. Funny considering that the pro-Israel passion is confined pretty much to North America. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I can never forget another pastor loudly speaking of how the close relationship between the United States and Israel is divinely sanctioned. Why? Check out how Jerusalem is spelled.

Jer-USA-lem! Note the middle three letters - USA!

I went back to the church I used to attend a few Sundays ago. I guess I wanted to feel the presence of God after having been away from it for months. That Sunday, they had people who had returned from an Israel trip give reports from the pulpit. Jeez, did it have to be that particular Sunday?

After they raved about how they would never look at Scripture the same way, the pastor spoke of a "ministry" dedicated to providing winter clothes for Israeli soldiers deployed to patrol the Gaza Strip. He felt pity for this "beautiful young Jewish girl" having to serve as a soldier because of God's enemies preying on the Chosen People of God.

Oh how about those Palestinians? Oh, I forgot. They are the enemies of God (note sarcasm). How about beautiful young Palestinian girls, pastor?

I was pissed. Why did they have to pick that particular Sunday to do this? My first time back in about 5 months? Or perhaps this was what they did every Sunday.

In one of our "debates," someone asked me why I believed that God had "abandoned His people."

Oh I don't know. We have this thing called the gospel of Jesus Christ which is available to everyone including Jews. So why that makes me so anti-semitic for believing that is beyond me.

I did not realize this pro-Isreal stance has moved into the area of "unnegotiable" fundamental doctrines", but it does not surprise me. The language has been with us for some time. This is insane.

This mentality is very much alive down here in the South and Southwest. It seems to be anywhere the TV preachers and their followers are heard. It is very thick here in the so called "Bible-Belt".

My ex-pastor has a Isreal ministry. This critical 'end-time" ministry sacrifices for the advancement of the Gospel by organzing tours to Isreal. It is the usual scam of signing up so many to go on the tour, then pocketing their $2,500.00 plus to pay for the it, so that the pastor, his family, and those "special someones" can all get free tickets to go too. The pastor, of course, leads the tour, sharing his special enlightenment, wisdom, and just witty charm. This is knowledge, they tell you, that can't be obtained like the common people do off "The History or Travel Channel", a book, The Bible, or just a regular tour. This is special for special people about special people, not the rabble.

One of my last Sundays attending this church (I think this just about did it for me ) the pastor had invited a "special- born" Jewish travel agent who was coordinating his upcoming Isreal tour. Like yours, this was on a Sunday morning. She went up to the pulpit and set up with maps, slides, the works. She then opened by letting us know she was a very rare individual due to the fact she was a Jew after all these centuries when most other early races no longer existed. My daughter leaned over and asked if this is scripturely accurate or even important. I answered that it was ridiculous. . ."In Christ" means no race, no male or female. When you are a "Born Again" child of God you are "In Christ". That is what makes ALL His Blood Bought children special.

I agree with your comments concerning Palestine. Of course to those with this mind set, it is of no importance if a Palestinian is even a Christian or not. To go against secular Isreal is sure to bring the judgement of God on America or any Christian. Do these people hear what they are saying?

I have a good amount of Jewish blood in me, floating around with some Scotish blood as well (I started to write "floating around with some Scotch", but that wouldn't look so good). I am not anti-semetic.

Again, it is good to vent concerning this. I had honestly thought about starting a thread to discuss it.. .but didn't.

[mstar]

Jane, I think we must be coming out of the same church with the same pastor. Guess they don't throw away the mold. This is really sad.

not a mega church-

a mega church wanna be.


Yes, I did see him before this.....but he was always "running" or sitting behind his big strong desk that must have had a bigger chair....

we had premarital counseling.....but again, he was mostly behind the desk, sometimes he would come around and pray with us.

after we were married, I would often sit on the floor in his office when we talked because I had a baby crawling around while we were talking so I guess in that sense, it was also my fault.

He often had us talk to other's in leadership because he was setting the stage for when we were thousands.......

He was too busy doing more spiritual things like preparing the sermons.

After his sermon, he would fly from the pulpit into a small room where the "care team" would bring him all the new people to introduce him too then he would fly down the hall of the children's church (which was restricted) to get to his office before people would "swarm" him. He wouldn't talk to anyone before or after the sermon because before the sermon would interfer with his connections to the "spirit" and after he couldn't because he was drained from the power of the sermon leaving him.

so yes, he was basically unapproachable to even those in leadership- but remember we weren't in the "CORE leadership" which was restricted to family memebers and maybe 4 others. Those were the people who really "arrived" and funny, I was close friends with them and they thought that they hadn't arrived yet and didn't feel approved by him either.

The elder- whose wife was my best friend (and the pastor's wife's sister- remember too the pastor's wife's mother was the administrator of the whole church)--- told me one day that her husband was shocked to find out from the Pastor's wife that he was the pastor's best friend....

so it was basically disfunctional where the "Top guy" was worshipped, a relationship with him or his approval was coveted and it looked like people were "in" who still felt insecure and "out".

I remember one day sharing with a friend, who was aspiring to leadership, that I felt "on the outside looking in" and she was surprised. SHe said, "jane, you're kidding, you are always at their house (the elder and his wife and the pastor's mother in law lived in the same house) and you are family??


wow, the things I could've told her like when my friend, the elders wife, invited my husband and I to their home for christmas eve dinner. Every christmas eve the entire "family" went to her house. 8 couples with numerous children, all but one couple members and leaders- were there. My friend told me the next day that she couldn't invite me again because someone (we now assume the pastor) felt uncompfortable with church people there....that the holiday was a day to get away from them............

made me feel rejected.

and honestly- EVERY day was a day that they wanted to get away from church people so why the heart of a pastor if you want to get away from the people so badly????

jane

[profnachos]

Thank you mstar. I am in pretty much in agreement with everything you said, and you do so much better than I could.

Yes, many churches around here organize Israel trips on a regular basis. And they are scams as you say.

As to charges of anti-semitism, this is coming from middle class white people who would excoriate blacks for playing the race card so readily. Yet, the anti-Semitism card gets pushed on me after just the first sentence, making reasonable discourse virtually impossible.

Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa hosted an event called "Israel Night." Featured that night was a line up of Israeli political activists SPEAKING FROM THE PULPIT. No, they were not Messianic Jews, They were non-believing Zionist activists in line with the far rightwing of Israeli politics.

According to my roommate who attended it (who is very pro-Israel), banned were any songs that had anything to do with Jesus so as not to offend the guests. Even my roommate was offended.

A slight majority of Jews in Israel, and the overwhelming majority of American Jews support Palestianian statehood, but yet Evangelical Christians stand side by side with the most extreme right wing of Israeli politics and support the expulsion of Palestinians with the ultimate goal of modern day Israel's borders matching those of ancient Israel. Anything less is not acceptable.

So tell me this. The most often used Bible verse to support their stance is what God said to Abraham - "I will bless those who bless you. I will curse those who curse you."

I stand with the majority of Jews in support of Palestianian statehood. Evangelical Christian Zionists are in line with a minority of Jews. Could you repeat that Bible verse regarding how I am suppose to bless the Jews?

I did not realize this pro-Isreal stance has moved into the area of "unnegotiable" fundamental doctrines", but it does not surprise me. The language has been with us for some time. This is insane.

This mentality is very much alive down here in the South and Southwest. It seems to be anywhere the TV preachers and their followers are heard. It is very thick here in the so called "Bible-Belt".

My ex-pastor has a Isreal ministry. This critical 'end-time" ministry sacrifices for the advancement of the Gospel by organzing tours to Isreal. It is the usual scam of signing up so many to go on the tour, then pocketing their $2,500.00 plus to pay for the it, so that the pastor, his family, and those "special someones" can all get free tickets to go too. The pastor, of course, leads the tour, sharing his special enlightenment, wisdom, and just witty charm. This is knowledge, they tell you, that can't be obtained like the common people do off "The History or Travel Channel", a book, The Bible, or just a regular tour. This is special for special people about special people, not the rabble.

One of my last Sundays attending this church (I think this just about did it for me ) the pastor had invited a "special- born" Jewish travel agent who was coordinating his upcoming Isreal tour. Like yours, this was on a Sunday morning. She went up to the pulpit and set up with maps, slides, the works. She then opened by letting us know she was a very rare individual due to the fact she was a Jew after all these centuries when most other early races no longer existed. My daughter leaned over and asked if this is scripturely accurate or even important. I answered that it was ridiculous. . ."In Christ" means no race, no male or female. When you are a "Born Again" child of God you are "In Christ". That is what makes ALL His Blood Bought children special.

I agree with your comments concerning Palestine. Of course to those with this mind set, it is of no importance if a Palestinian is even a Christian or not. To go against secular Isreal is sure to bring the judgement of God on America or any Christian. Do these people hear what they are saying?

I have a good amount of Jewish blood in me, floating around with some Scotish blood as well (I started to write "floating around with some Scotch", but that wouldn't look so good). I am not anti-semetic.

Again, it is good to vent concerning this. I had honestly thought about starting a thread to discuss it.. .but didn't.

[profnachos]

I would like more information about Forbidden Peace. Is the Jews for Jesus more even-handed when it comes to Israeli politics? I sure hope so.

Rabbinic Jews are no more "God's chosen people" than any other non-believing group is. They've departed from and rejected the promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They reject their Messiah. Modern-day Israel is mostly full of rabbinic Jews, but there are some 80 congregations of Messianic Jews there and about 12,000 believers. The numbers of Messianic Jews are growing, here and in Israel and all over the world, and I praise the Lord for that. I also praise Him for new Arab believers. (Has anyone ever seen the video, "Forbidden Peace," put out by the Jews for Jesus? I saw it a couple of months ago: it's stunning.)

As to Jews and whether their special relationship with God endures, I humbly accept that Genesis 12:3 and its promise to Abraham (who was still Abram then) are still "out there," as are John 4:22b and Romans 9, 10 and 11. I do believe that Romans 1:16 carries an imperative with it to us who are born-again believers. I've spent years witnessing to Jews and while I believe that the Lord provides the increase, what the Lord has permitted me to see with them has been a sheer blessing to me, especially because I have some Jewish ancestry myself. Currently, we're attending a Messianic synagogue on Saturday mornings for Shabbat services and regular, Protestant services on Sundays.

I pray for all non-believers, Gentiles and Jews, that the Lord would save them, for there is no hope for any of us without the Lord Jesus Christ. After all, in Him, there is "neither Greek nor Jew..." (Colossians 3:11.)

Interesting discussion here...

mary

[profnachos]

Oh Jane, Hollywood movie producers should be talking to you about this. Pretty juicy stuff. :D

Thanks for sharing.

I got an idea. Since we have replicated everything worldly thing and made it our own (Christian Rock, Christian schools, Christian politicians, Christian ....), somebody should come up with the Christian version of National Enquierer. We all know there's more than enough enough material

not a mega church-

a mega church wanna be.


Yes, I did see him before this.....but he was always "running" or sitting behind his big strong desk that must have had a bigger chair....

we had premarital counseling.....but again, he was mostly behind the desk, sometimes he would come around and pray with us.

after we were married, I would often sit on the floor in his office when we talked because I had a baby crawling around while we were talking so I guess in that sense, it was also my fault.

He often had us talk to other's in leadership because he was setting the stage for when we were thousands.......

He was too busy doing more spiritual things like preparing the sermons.

After his sermon, he would fly from the pulpit into a small room where the "care team" would bring him all the new people to introduce him too then he would fly down the hall of the children's church (which was restricted) to get to his office before people would "swarm" him. He wouldn't talk to anyone before or after the sermon because before the sermon would interfer with his connections to the "spirit" and after he couldn't because he was drained from the power of the sermon leaving him.

so yes, he was basically unapproachable to even those in leadership- but remember we weren't in the "CORE leadership" which was restricted to family memebers and maybe 4 others. Those were the people who really "arrived" and funny, I was close friends with them and they thought that they hadn't arrived yet and didn't feel approved by him either.

The elder- whose wife was my best friend (and the pastor's wife's sister- remember too the pastor's wife's mother was the administrator of the whole church)--- told me one day that her husband was shocked to find out from the Pastor's wife that he was the pastor's best friend....

so it was basically disfunctional where the "Top guy" was worshipped, a relationship with him or his approval was coveted and it looked like people were "in" who still felt insecure and "out".

I remember one day sharing with a friend, who was aspiring to leadership, that I felt "on the outside looking in" and she was surprised. SHe said, "jane, you're kidding, you are always at their house (the elder and his wife and the pastor's mother in law lived in the same house) and you are family??


wow, the things I could've told her like when my friend, the elders wife, invited my husband and I to their home for christmas eve dinner. Every christmas eve the entire "family" went to her house. 8 couples with numerous children, all but one couple members and leaders- were there. My friend told me the next day that she couldn't invite me again because someone (we now assume the pastor) felt uncompfortable with church people there....that the holiday was a day to get away from them............

made me feel rejected.

and honestly- EVERY day was a day that they wanted to get away from church people so why the heart of a pastor if you want to get away from the people so badly????

jane

[profnachos]

Hey, tell that pastor that California has had several Republican governors including Ronald Reagan, and Arnold, unlike liberal New England.

Lost Angeles

Sin Francisco.

just another one of those moments when I am stunned by blatant ignorance- and WHY do people follow such ignorance????


I remember being in 8th grade at an AOG church when the pastor talked about California going to fall into the ocean by an earth quake- "just a matter of time" after all they named Los Angelos; LOST ANGELS!

I remember laughing outloud.....because it means city of angels!!!!

and then being stunned by the agreeing heads in the congregation....

so much for New England being an area of the educated I thought!

This was back around 1980!



-and oh yeah, I agree I wouldn't date a 20 something year old either....

need a little more wisdom, practice, and patience; that is for sure.

jane

[mary]

Profnachos, yes, "Forbidden Peace" is a documentary about one particular, very unusual friendship between a former Israeli soldier and an ex-member of Hamas. Common ground between the two: they're both born-again believers in Jesus Christ. They travel and do speaking engagements together; in fact, I just missed their presentation at the Messianic synagogue we attend on Saturdays. :o "Forbidden Peace" also features some filming at a nursing home in the Middle East at which elderly Jews and Palestinians are cared for, side by side, and a couple of women in particular, one Jewish, one an Arab, who are very good friends. It's quite touching, really. At our Messianic synagogue, we pray routinely for the salvation of those Arab nations who don't know the Lord (Yeshua HaMashiach, or Jesus the Messiah); we certainly don't pray for their destruction. Anything but!

Jews for Jesus, while I personally disagree with some of their doctrine, is not a hateful group. They understand the Gospel and they put it into practice. Their desire is not to see those who call themselves their enemies destroyed, but for them to know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. In the metropolitan area in which I live, some say that we have more Arabs than anyplace outside of the Middle East itself, and we have a lot of Jews, too. I have many opportunities for interaction with both... I just pray for their salvation. A member of our extended family is an Irani whose first language is Farsi; he's also a born-again Christian who publishes a newsletter for Christian Iranis - under a pseudonym. The Lord gathers His people from all of the corners of the earth, and it's a beautiful thing to see!!!

mary

[profnachos]

That is great to hear.

Now the ideal story for Evangelical Christians would be

"The former Hamas member accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior. Realizes that he is trespassing whenever he sets his foot within the borders of Israel, repents, and moves out to Syria with his family. He is now witnessing to other Palestinians urging them to leave the land for the Chosen People of God and apologize for Palestinian trangressions. Amen" :D

Thanks. I will have to check out Forbidden Peace. It is great to hear an organization like Jews for Jesus does not participate in the hate fest.


Profnachos, yes, "Forbidden Peace" is a documentary about one particular, very unusual friendship between a former Israeli soldier and an ex-member of Hamas. Common ground between the two: they're both born-again believers in Jesus Christ. They travel and do speaking engagements together; in fact, I just missed their presentation at the Messianic synagogue we attend on Saturdays. :o "Forbidden Peace" also features some filming at a nursing home in the Middle East at which elderly Jews and Palestinians are cared for, side by side, and a couple of women in particular, one Jewish, one an Arab, who are very good friends. It's quite touching, really. At our Messianic synagogue, we pray routinely for the salvation of those Arab nations who don't know the Lord (Yeshua HaMashiach, or Jesus the Messiah); we certainly don't pray for their destruction. Anything but!

Jews for Jesus, while I personally disagree with some of their doctrine, is not a hateful group. They understand the Gospel and they put it into practice. Their desire is not to see those who call themselves their enemies destroyed, but for them to know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. In the metropolitan area in which I live, some say that we have more Arabs than anyplace outside of the Middle East itself, and we have a lot of Jews, too. I have many opportunities for interaction with both... I just pray for their salvation. A member of our extended family is an Irani whose first language is Farsi; he's also a born-again Christian who publishes a newsletter for Christian Iranis - under a pseudonym. The Lord gathers His people from all of the corners of the earth, and it's a beautiful thing to see!!!

mary

[mstar]

you do so much better than I could

No I don't. As I lack a proper education, I struggle with my writing. It takes me twice as long to write anything because of this.

I feel blessed that I have been able to participate in this thread and for its existence. I have felt very alone concerning this issue. Thank you.

[jane]

well,

we in Connecticut just did have a republican governer and now his assistant is governer....

while my husband and I were so against him being voted in because we saw his crooked connections in politics...

we were almost stonned to death at church...surely this republican was a christian!

and friends with bush!...(come on now, like the Bush family really has time for the small politics of our little state....:p )



so....we felt quite smug and "i told you so" when last year he was sent to prison....

of course now you should hear my husband and I vomitt when those christians talk about this;

"hey, did you hear that governer Rowland is born again? HE GOT SAVED IN PRISON"

ARE THEY STUPID????

He is being investigated because he is being paid lots of money while in prison from some special interest groups.......

JEEZO>

get a democrat in prison and you would think that Satan himself is finally chained to hell.


I am not saying that we should all be democrat-

I am just simply talking about the bias and ignorance that I see in the christian groups around here....

Rowland saved in prision.....gimme a freakin break. Maybe he would become saved if he went to the prison that you and I would get sent to...but not at that country club that they call prison for the very rich.

jane

[jane]

this has been an enlightening thread....


We didn't see any of that stuff at our church because quite frankly anything that didn't benefit the pastor's family wasn't allowed....


I remember him trying to organize trips to Russia, he wanted to church plant over there...but yet when he went he never met with church leaders there; he met with business leaders.....:rolleyes:


When he organized one trip, he was pissed because no one could come up with the money to go...

well, I thought, if we weren't giving to the building fun, pastor's appreciation week, pastor's christmas gift, pastor' and wives birthday gifts, father's day gifts, mother's day gifts.....

and so on; they probably could have afforded to go...

jane

[jane]

I got an idea. Since we have replicated everything worldly thing and made it our own (Christian Rock, Christian schools, Christian politicians, Christian ....), somebody should come up with the Christian version of National Enquierer. We all know there's more than enough enough material


sounds like a great idea....unfortunately around here there aren't too many 'inquiring minds that want to know.'


denial is what I see.

that and a persecution of christians who try to speak up--- they'll say that I am causing "dissention and discord in the body"; a high crime. I have also been accused of "planting seeds of doubt in unbeliever's minds who might have come to visit God's church"....another crime punishable by death.

so, we'll be reporters for your show, just not the creators....

too many enemies to battle and not enough time to build Hannah's Haven and fight THOSE enemies.

love,
jane

[mstar]

Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa hosted an event called "Israel Night." Featured that night was a line up of Israeli political activists SPEAKING FROM THE PULPIT. No, they were not Messianic Jews, They were non-believing Zionist activists in line with the far rightwing of Israeli politics.

According to my roommate who attended it (who is very pro-Israel), banned were any songs that had anything to do with Jesus so as not to offend the guests. Even my roommate was offended.

This is an amazing picture of this menality. :eek:

So tell me this. The most often used Bible verse to support their stance is what God said to Abraham - "I will bless those who bless you. I will curse those who curse you."

Though out the Bible the "seed" of Abraham showed up in siblings born in the same womb, one loved by God, another rejected. Jesus's lineage contained some pretty interesting individuals of "non-chosen races" ie. Rahab, Ruth.

I believe the Lord allowed this for a reason. Maybe a foreshadow of future events concerning the state of Israel and the engrafting of the Gentiles. To show that Abraham's true seed is a spirtual seed, not so much in the physical.

If this is the case, then the verse you have quoted would be "I will bless those who bless you (as you are apart of the Kingdom Of God.) I will curse those who curse you." (as you move against God's kingdom purposes)

What do you think?

I stand with the majority of Jews in support of Palestianian statehood. Evangelical Christian Zionists are in line with a minority of Jews. Could you repeat that Bible verse regarding how I am suppose to bless the Jews?

I think this would be my stand as well. I believe we have Palestianian Christians living in this region, and of course one does not have to be Christian in order to have lands to become a nation. If not, we are back to the crusades. Today we allow pagean nations this right, so it seems fair to the concept of a Palestine statehood. To be honest I have been so turned off by this unscriptural, "in your face" pro Israel stand, it has caused me not to deal with thinking this through.

For the New Testament believer the scripture that comes to mind concerning our blessing the Jews is the warning Paul gives us in Romans11 about not becoming arrogant concerning some of the broken off branches of Irsael resulting in the ingrafted branches of the Gentiles, verse 23, "And if they do not presist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in." Prob. an admonishment which some midieval countries, the crusades, Russia, and Nazi Germany would have done well to listen to.

Other than that I do not find anything else. The scriptures seem to be dealing more with a spiritual seed.

Correct me if i am wrong.:)

Mary, thank you for the information. It is encouraging.

[mstar]

Oh Jane, Hollywood movie producers should be talking to you about this. Pretty juicy stuff. :D

Thanks for sharing.

I got an idea. Since we have replicated everything worldly thing and made it our own (Christian Rock, Christian schools, Christian politicians, Christian ....), somebody should come up with the Christian version of National Enquierer. We all know there's more than enough enough material

CCM is close. That is if you want to know more than you should about the private lives of Christian rock stars.

[Carmen]

This is interesting! :) I'd like to know more about Forbidden Peace, too.

Hi mstar,

I think that the seed of Abraham was addressed by Paul. He said that Christians are Abraham's offspring, the children of the promise, not necessarily those of the flesh. But get this one, Paul persecuted Christians as Saul and received mercy - becoming Paul. So even God allows some to be blessed by knowing him, that cursed Christians before. We'll be seeing more of that, I guess.

Carmen

[mary]

Oh, Mstar, that was an awful event! Any gathering at which the Lord Jesus Christ is not welcome, but that operates under the guise of support for God's "chosen people" is nowhere that the real Church (the invisible one, not the "one" populated by the unregenerate and pastored by charlatans, creeps, criminals and dopes like the ones whose actions put all of us in this forum) belongs. The real Church should have nothing to do with "supporters of Israel" who do not name the name of the Messiah. They're fakes and they're lost, plain and simple. Phooey on 'em! :p

My interest in ministering and witnessing to Jews is strictly, I hope, although I'm not perfect of course, according to Biblical guidelines. I don't think you can do it any other way. I have a doctor friend who occasionally tries to talk to me about Kabbalah and I always just yell, "NO!" at him when he does it. I've worked around Jewish attorneys for many years and I've been called a lot of names: "holy roller," "snake handler," etc. One Jewish attorney whom I knew for over a decade told me, "We all just think you Christians want to march us back into the ovens." My response to that was that I gave him Corrie ten Boom's "The Hiding Place" to read and I told him, "That's how real Christians feel about you people." Basically, I just want to give them the Gospel and show them, through their own Tenakh and the B'rit Chadasha (the New Testament), Who their Messiah is. I've learned some Hebrew now and I can greet them and have a minimal conversation with them. That throws them off-guard. I can also then pray, in front of them, "Baruch haShem Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach" ("Blessed be the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ") and that really knocks them off their pins. I admit to a special affection for Messianics, for I know what it cost me to come out of Catholicism for reformed Protestantism as far as "family and friend" relationships go, and they go through much worse when they leave rabbinic Judaism because they believe in Jesus. The minor contingent of Jewish ancestry on my paternal grandmother's side also impels me to witness to them; my grandmother was a dear lady.

Anyway, I didn't even realize that things like this Chuck Smith thing were going on. Nuts!!! "They know not what they do..."

mary

[mstar]

Hey Mary. Oh sorry. I think I was referring to what you wrote about "Jews For Jesus". I couldn't really think as my daughter was in here while I was trying to write, jumping up and down to go to the mall. (she's 25yrs. . .do they grow up?)

Let me go back and read what you had written. My speed reading is not good.

[mstar]

The post below was what I was referring to. Sorry, I should have placed the quote by what I wrote to you.

I found what you wrote most encouraging.:)


Profnachos, yes, "Forbidden Peace" is a documentary about one particular, very unusual friendship between a former Israeli soldier and an ex-member of Hamas. Common ground between the two: they're both born-again believers in Jesus Christ. They travel and do speaking engagements together; in fact, I just missed their presentation at the Messianic synagogue we attend on Saturdays. :o "Forbidden Peace" also features some filming at a nursing home in the Middle East at which elderly Jews and Palestinians are cared for, side by side, and a couple of women in particular, one Jewish, one an Arab, who are very good friends. It's quite touching, really. At our Messianic synagogue, we pray routinely for the salvation of those Arab nations who don't know the Lord (Yeshua HaMashiach, or Jesus the Messiah); we certainly don't pray for their destruction. Anything but!

Jews for Jesus, while I personally disagree with some of their doctrine, is not a hateful group. They understand the Gospel and they put it into practice. Their desire is not to see those who call themselves their enemies destroyed, but for them to know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. In the metropolitan area in which I live, some say that we have more Arabs than anyplace outside of the Middle East itself, and we have a lot of Jews, too. I have many opportunities for interaction with both... I just pray for their salvation. A member of our extended family is an Irani whose first language is Farsi; he's also a born-again Christian who publishes a newsletter for Christian Iranis - under a pseudonym. The Lord gathers His people from all of the corners of the earth, and it's a beautiful thing to see!!!

mary

[mstar]

My interest in ministering and witnessing to Jews is strictly, I hope, although I'm not perfect of course, according to Biblical guidelines. I don't think you can do it any other way. I have a doctor friend who occasionally tries to talk to me about Kabbalah and I always just yell, "NO!" at him when he does it. I've worked around Jewish attorneys for many years and I've been called a lot of names: "holy roller," "snake handler," etc. One Jewish attorney whom I knew for over a decade told me, "We all just think you Christians want to march us back into the ovens." My response to that was that I gave him Corrie ten Boom's "The Hiding Place" to read and I told him, "That's how real Christians feel about you people." Basically, I just want to give them the Gospel and show them, through their own Tenakh and the B'rit Chadasha (the New Testament), Who their Messiah is. I've learned some Hebrew now and I can greet them and have a minimal conversation with them. That throws them off-guard. I can also then pray, in front of them, "Baruch haShem Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach" ("Blessed be the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ") and that really knocks them off their pins. I admit to a special affection for Messianics, for I know what it cost me to come out of Catholicism for reformed Protestantism as far as "family and friend" relationships go, and they go through much worse when they leave rabbinic Judaism because they believe in Jesus. The minor contingent of Jewish ancestry on my paternal grandmother's side also impels me to witness to them; my grandmother was a dear lady.
mary

Wow, it sounds like you are moving on with this direction. Good for you! I am blessed and once again encouraged.:) Bless you.

[mstar]

This is interesting! :) I'd like to know more about Forbidden Peace, too.

Hi mstar,

I think that the seed of Abraham was addressed by Paul. He said that Christians are Abraham's offspring, the children of the promise, not necessarily those of the flesh. But get this one, Paul persecuted Christians as Saul and received mercy - becoming Paul. So even God allows some to be blessed by knowing him, that cursed Christians before. We'll be seeing more of that, I guess.

Carmen

Yes, I believe you are right concerning Paul's writings on the true seed of Abraham. Yeah it should get interesting as time progresses.