!? How I got healed...why the judgement?

[Jam Night]

I finally got a chance to read the response to my last post about Pastoral abuse and was not only hurt, but amazed at how strong and hateful a judgement I received for posting my opinion.

No one bothered asking or finding out what spiritual abuse I came from. Nor why I would view things the way I did. Instead I got 26 strings of anger and even hatred. I came hear because I believed maybe people at this site would understand what I came from, and therefore we could have a healthy, SOBER discussion.

The things I state regarding personal responsibility is what enabled me to take control of my life instead of continually depending on other people, especially other leaders who were selfish and ultimately users/abusers.

The sad after-taste of abuse is it sets us up to remain with a vicitm mentality and therefore continually suffer further abuse from others. When does the cycle end? I have been involved in counceling, programs, etc. etc. but it wasn't until I finally realized that NO ONE ELSE is going to make things right, and I can't blame God or leaders for me not willing to hold myself truly accountable to the things I KNOW God was speaking to me, that I found freedom and PEACE.

So many of you responded with such anger I couldn't believe it. And JUDGEMENT. You are doing the same thing you accuse those leaders of doing. You seem to only accept those who speak the same language you do.

If I don't fit your image I'm out? Healing isn't just stroking, sometimes it's surgery. Sometimes change hurts. When someone can hear my opinion, disagree, and still love me, that's healthy.

For those of you who tried to explain instead of simply attack, thank you, and I did read EVERY response and learned from some of them.

[Voyager]

You have to understand that your post came across as an attack. Telling people it was their fault they were spiritually abused is like telling a rape victim that it was their fault they were raped.

People who were abused have "triggers" that cause they to become very defensive. With spiritually abused people, the most common trigger is religious shaming. Telling people they don't have reason to grieve (i.e. "get over it and move on") can come across as very critical and condemning.

When you posted, you didn't tell your story and what your needs and hurts are - you told us how to deal with ours and to "quit whining". You also accused us of making scapegoats out of our abusive pastors. Doing something like that around here will bring some very defensive reactions - especially on your first visit when no one knows anything about you (you could be their former pastor as far as they know). No one wants to be preached at around here, or told that it was their fault they were abused. This is a place to share your hurts and your issues with others, and receive support for the same. It's not a place to counsel people on how to "move on" from their wounds.

Take what you need and leave the rest. I'm not the forum admin, I'm just sharing what I have learned from frequenting this form for over six years.

:cool:

[gwen]

Jam Night,

I'm sorry if my comments came across too harshly for you. You have to understand that we are a group of wounded people here, and words can rewound. We've ALL heard that we need to "just get over it"! Believe me, I would if it were that simple! But as many things are in this life, things are not that simple! You, yourself, said that you've gone through counseling and programs to deal with your personal suffering.

The best way to express yourself on this forum is to simply share your own personal experiences. What works for YOU. It's best to write in first person, such as you did in this post. It's less offensive that way.

We're here to help each other, but that basically comes from our sharing of our own personal experiences. I hope that this helps you...

Gwen

[Jam Night]

I missed one of the replies to my last e-mail: GO TO HELL

Uh...this is how you accept me and offer love? Thanks.

I believe that perhaps not everyone on this site is quite this cruel, so I will stick around and see what the response is. But so far this experience is sickening.

As for my abuse I will detail it in minor detail:

Spiritual "Leader":

Beat me, my 3 brothers and my mom regularly for 3 years.

Raped my mom in front of me when I was 4 by turning the crib upside down over my head. His knife punctured the waterbed on accident so I got to sit in a warm pool while listening to it and seeing her legs only.

The board of "elders" refused to believe it, even when we routinely showed up to church with bruises and cuts.

My Mom is a math teacher now, and has an IQ rated at 145, yet she was led to believe that somehow she NEEDED this man and God did not want her to leave. The church board supported this belief, going as far as to say she would go to Hell if she kept talking about it or left.

There's more to it than that...and that was the first experience. The next 3 in my life weren't as violent, but they were horrible too.

Thanks for asking, and wondering why I felt I had a right to speak my mind at a spiritual abuse site.

[Reg]

I finally got a chance to read the response to my last post about Pastoral abuse and was not only hurt, but amazed at how strong and hateful a judgement I received for posting my opinion.

No one bothered asking or finding out what spiritual abuse I came from. Nor why I would view things the way I did. Instead I got 26 strings of anger and even hatred. I came hear because I believed maybe people at this site would understand what I came from, and therefore we could have a healthy, SOBER discussion.

The things I state regarding personal responsibility is what enabled me to take control of my life instead of continually depending on other people, especially other leaders who were selfish and ultimately users/abusers.

The sad after-taste of abuse is it sets us up to remain with a vicitm mentality and therefore continually suffer further abuse from others. When does the cycle end? I have been involved in counceling, programs, etc. etc. but it wasn't until I finally realized that NO ONE ELSE is going to make things right, and I can't blame God or leaders for me not willing to hold myself truly accountable to the things I KNOW God was speaking to me, that I found freedom and PEACE.

So many of you responded with such anger I couldn't believe it. And JUDGEMENT. You are doing the same thing you accuse those leaders of doing. You seem to only accept those who speak the same language you do.

If I don't fit your image I'm out? Healing isn't just stroking, sometimes it's surgery. Sometimes change hurts. When someone can hear my opinion, disagree, and still love me, that's healthy.

For those of you who tried to explain instead of simply attack, thank you, and I did read EVERY response and learned from some of them.

If you truly came here for healing and let us get to know a bit about you and your story instead of preaching, you may have received a different response.

Whether you realize it or not, of few others came here in a similar manner and they were identified very quickly. By what you said and how you came across, it was very similar. You must realize that all you have are words here. You could be anybody and you came here where a lot of wounded people are and preach and say things that were the same things the abusive leaders did and you expect a loving open warm hearted greeting? Get real. What did you expect?

Anyone who was spiritually abused would know that. So we are suspicious of you. Tell us a bit about your story first and let us get to know you some more before you start giving advise. Remember my post? No anger there...

Whoever you are, the wonderful people here are very experienced in guilt tripping and any kind of manipulation. Want to come here and make a contribution? Read Toxic Faith by Jack Felton and Steve Arterburn first. You should know who they are. I heard Steve speak at Saddleback a couple of years ago. He is well respected in healthy churches. Is yours healthy?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...lance&n=283155

If you have the nerve to read it and maybe are a pastor, you will see how off-base you are in coming here as a guest and unannounced, giving advise.

ADVISE IS SOMETHING MORE BLESSED TO GIVE THAN IT IS TO RECEIVE.

That applies to a lot of those who try to fix others and have no love for them.

Mr. Pastor, why don't you re-read 1Cor 13........very slowly....... and very carefully.

[Jam Night]

Thank you for your response Voyager, it was a little cooler...:)

But why only share the experience? Why not also share what worked?

I'm sorry if some people felt so hurt so quick by me. But I don't think we should wallow in only the evil of what happened, but the good that God brought out afterwords, and how He lead us into that light.

[gwen]

Thank you for your response Voyager, it was a little cooler...:)

But why only share the experience? Why not also share what worked?

I'm sorry if some people felt so hurt so quick by me. But I don't think we should wallow in only the evil of what happened, but the good that God brought out afterwords, and how He lead us into that light.

You absolutely can share what has worked for YOU! But again, by telling us in the first person is what comes across as less threatening and less triggering.

I have learned a lot from the people on this forum since I found it in October. But I learn mostly from their sharing of their experiences in recovery. I am finding that recovery is a process...just like physical healing...and we are all at different levels. There are people here on the forum from all over the world and from all different experiences...

I hope this helps...
Gwen

[Reg]

Thank you for your response Voyager, it was a little cooler...:)

But why only share the experience? Why not also share what worked?

I'm sorry if some people felt so hurt so quick by me. But I don't think we should wallow in only the evil of what happened, but the good that God brought out afterwords, and how He lead us into that light.
You must realize how long it takes for people to recover from SA. We are all at different stages and need to share a lot to get the poison out.

You said you were involved in counselling, recovery programs. If you were really in a recovery program such as a 12 Step one, you would know that you share your personally stories and tell what worked for you. No one can FIX anyone else. It's by sharing your personal story that a lot of the healing comes. I helped start a 12- Step program in our church called Celebrate Recovery spending two years there as a leader. When I lead one of the small groups we had guidelines that we read before each meeting. Here are a couple that will apply in your case.

Small Group Guidelines

1. Keep your sharing focused on you own thoughts and feelings. (Not anyone else’s)


3. We are her to support one another - NOT “Fix” others. (We are not licensed therapists. This also keeps us focused on our own issues. If you want to respond to what someone has shared, speak only in terms of your own experience.)

[Joseph]

Hello Jam,

Voyager and Reg are right with there comments. You went after me and my comments and I never seen you before, so I considered your comments and responded. I will give you respect if it's received, you slapped some people in the face and you were shocked when you were slapped back.
That's not judgement it's a defensive reaction.
Pastors and leaders do come here and continue to abuse and your post came off like that. If you explained why you came here you would have had the support of everyone right away but your words put doubt in our minds about what your motive might be.
I respect what you've gone through and I'm truly sorry for any abuse you've suffered.
Your words to this point have been belittling and angry and you expect love and understanding?
Stop attacking, start talking and speak of your experiences and you'll see what a great group of people this is. You have your views, we all have ours, one way or another we all learn and grow from it.

I do have a question, and I'm not being a wise guy. This is a forum for victims of spiritual abuse, If you went through so much counseling and know the answer and have been healed, how and why are you here?

Joe

[Voyager]

Jam Night,

I am very sorry about your past abuse.

I sure hope you stick around here, and don't judge us by our first reactions. You'll find this group to be very supportive of newcomers.

I have made the mistake of trying to "fix" people on this forum myself, and I got some of the same reactions that you did. It made me upset just like it did you. Looking back, I can understand why people had such strong reactions. Many of us have been controlled and "fixed" for so long by an abusive leader, and now we want to be free to "fix" ourselves - or to even remain "unfixed" if we want to. We are making our own decisions now, and no one else has the right to shame us for them.

Again, I hope you stick around. Once you warm up to everyone, you will find this place to be very healing and supportive.

:cool:

[Jerry]

Dear Jam,,,,
Lets start over ;) Welcome to the Board
Love Jerry

[jjc9497]

Dear Jam,

Welcome. It does sound like you do belong here. My response to your first thread was because your post sounded to me like a preacher POUNDING the pulpit and screaming at me to buckle under to his will. Thus, my reaction.

Your post here tells us about YOU. It is a sharing of what YOU have been thru and done about it. That's what we are here for---not to preach but to share our own successes and failures. In this thread, notice how often you used "I" in telling your story. Your other thread was all "we" and "us", which I implyed to mean I had to do it your way. God is so creative and he heals us in so many different ways. Many of your experiences of success will help some of us, but not all, because God heals us all differently as we have been wounded differently.

I hope you will try again.

[truth]

Spiritual "Leader":

Beat me, my 3 brothers and my mom regularly for 3 years.

Raped my mom in front of me when I was 4 by turning the crib upside down over my head. His knife punctured the waterbed on accident so I got to sit in a warm pool while listening to it and seeing her legs only.

The board of "elders" refused to believe it, even when we routinely showed up to church with bruises and cuts.

My Mom is a math teacher now, and has an IQ rated at 145, yet she was led to believe that somehow she NEEDED this man and God did not want her to leave. The church board supported this belief, going as far as to say she would go to Hell if she kept talking about it or left.

There's more to it than that...and that was the first experience. The next 3 in my life weren't as violent, but they were horrible too.



Unfortunately, now this is the "language and the stories, we understand" again, unfortunately --- thank you for sharing your story with us - now we understand you better....we're really not cruel and mean although I certainly would understand your thinking so after our first interaction with you!

We can actually be kind of "ok" when you get to know us:) We're funny, we're happy, we're sad, depressed, we're probably rich, poor --- all across the board and all across different walks of life, I suppose and I guess that was the "point" we were trying to drive home with all our anger is we just want a place like our forum home to be human, to be people, to be imperfect, -- not judged, not criticized for our "unspiritual attitudes" just left alone for once to be who we are and who we were truly made to be ---- which hopefully we know God has a ways to go with and won't stop working on it until Heaven!

We're just all in recovery - like you - and it won't be over until the day we die and go on to Heaven - we will never arrive while here --- I really would like to see you be a part of our group I'm sure that someone who has gone through what you did has much valuable wisdom and insight -- we all need work on our communications skills with one another ( I sure do) but I believe that we just want to be left alone - like you do and allowed to say what we have to say without attacking each other --- forgive me for my vehement responses and attacking style I get crazy and triggered when I hear those type of words as in your post -- they remind me so much of my church days and the people there who thought they "had arrived" and knew more than the rest of us --- let's start again


welcome, Jam Night

[jane]

Uh...this is how you accept me and offer love? Thanks.



it is not my responsibility to accept you and offer love.

jane

[jane]

Not a single apology for you for coming across harshly and judging---

just an attack back at people for reacting to you....and yet I read apologies of others on the board....

geez, yeah you can still go to hell.

[butterfly]

Jzm Night ,Will you please go back and read what you wrote in the first thread.
There is no love there from you. The words you wrote are mean, judging, and attacking.
I reacted because I have had enough judgement and attacks with the same kinds of fwords you wrote.
TO me they were not words of someone who went thru SA. They were words that come from SA

[Kerrin]

Dear Jam night,
I haven't been able to read any of your threads yet, but I will.
I am glad you will 'stick" around........because as I've found , while I may not always like what responses I get, healing is a process.
Connecting with other people again is a process whether that is via the NET as it is for me, it is a new learning and it takes time.
Sometimes it is a process that is much longer for some than for others, and we are all her to journey through it together, by sharing rather than being 'preachy' .

When you have never known "normal" and the Church robbed you of even that experience; it's very difficult to believe in mere 'men'; if you know what I mean.

I know it's easy to get excited if you feel you have the answer or a breakthrough that has worked for you; but for most of us here, those kinds of words are , as Butterfly pointed out, many times, the way in which we were abused.
I'm not sure this exactly states what I'm trying to say, as I am in a bit if a rush; which isn't a good thing , when responding to a post of this nature!:o

Anyway I look forward to reading some more and thanks for sharing some of your very painful experience; and do stick around. It's a good place to come, with good people!!!;)
Love
Kerrin;)

[Willow]

But why only share the experience? Why not also share what worked?

Hey... sharing what worked.... in first person "I" is exactly what this forum is about. I'm all ears when someone shares success stories. However... that's not how your first post came across. It came across more as a "blame the victim" message. I appreciate your story and the intensity of the abuse you suffered. I am horrified by it! Here's an example of how to tell what works for you... I'll do it in my own words and my own experience: "I've been making great headway lately since I decided to seek community outside of the church. It no longer matters to me who is a christian and who is not. I consider this great progress for me. My relationships with others have deepened and I am finding healing in ways I never deemed valid before. I laid down my "calling" for a more mundane life of being the best "me" I can and treating others according to the golden rule. I'm not always successful at this... but work hard at it. I also have learned that standing up for myself and using harsh words and shooting people the bird every once in awhile isn't the sin I used to think it was! It's healthy!!!" OK... that's my example of how to post on this forum. I sure hope it's helpful to you.

Amy

[Kerrin]

Hey... sharing what worked.... in first person "I" is exactly what this forum is about. . I'll do it in my own words and my own experience: "I've been making great headway lately since I decided to seek community outside of the church. It no longer matters to me who is a christian and who is not. I consider this great progress for me. My relationships with others have deepened and I am finding healing in ways I never deemed valid before. I laid down my "calling" for a more mundane life of being the best "me" I can and treating others according to the golden rule. I'm not always successful at this... but work hard at it. I also have learned that standing up for myself and using harsh words and shooting people the bird every once in awhile isn't the sin I used to think it was! It's healthy!!!" OK... that's my example of how to post on this forum. I sure hope it's helpful to you.

Amy

Ah, Amy, so well put/said!
I am only at the baby step stage of where you're at!!
But it 'feels' so good to actually enjoy people , non-christian's too, again.
I'm doing a lot of stumbling as I attempt to enter relationships, but I keep putting one foot in front of the other, and hopefully my balance will return!!

I LOVE that , and I Quote: I laid down my "calling" for a more mundane life of being the best "me" I can and treating others according to the golden rule. I'm not always successful at this... but work hard at it. I also have learned that standing up for myself and using harsh words and shooting people the bird every once in awhile isn't the sin I used to think it was!

It was 'something' my Amy and I were only discussing yesterday .Her ALL of 14 , has taken THIS long to read a Harry Potter book and venture out to actually see the movie!!
Did she 'catch" anything demonic in the process, did she start casting spells, or turn into a witch , or worse ,a rebellious teenager???;( as our Church had pummeled into her..???) Of course NOT! Now she's just more enlightened and can relate to her non Christan friends far better. And STILL remain faithful to Christ!
Now she's done with Harry, she's moved on to The Chronicles of Narnia!!! (which our Church approves of of course....:rolleyes: ).
As for "laying down" your "calling" , I am still amazed at the garbage my Church fed me about my "calling" , and how they almost destroyed my career 'calling' !!Hmmphhh!!! Hogwash!!! (funny how the "gift" I apparently had only operated while I was "in" Church!!! but doesn't now!! Something to do with being backslidden....:rolleyes: ).

Sorry, this has turned into a rant!
I just felt blessed and validated by your progress Amy!
It gives me hope , so thanks!
I am healing, one step at a time....
Love
Kerrin;)

[Willow]

Thanks Kerrin for the validation!!! Smoochies and HUGS!!!:D

Amy

[Willow]

Ahh... Harry Potter... I still have a problem with witchy stuff. Pragmatically though... I can't see anything inherently evil about Harry Potter. It seem to be a good wins over evil type of plot... like most of the fairy tales we grew up with.

[Jam Night]

Well I have to admit these responses have been down right encouraging and much more friendly. I understand now why people responded the way they did, and it DOES make sense to me.

I come from a black-american culture and generally speaking we tend to be a lot more aggresive sounding than our hearts really are, especially my social circle. A lot of us have come from rough lives and hard places and we tend to speak our thoughts as though that were simply how it is, even though inside we are open to objection, learning and can even be sensitive.

Thank you again for your responses folks, and forgive me for being so offensive. I should have spent more time reading than simply jumping in and telling people my opinion!

JOSEPH: (I don't know how to do the quote thing yet) as for why I am here, I have been 'delivered' so to speak, though I prefer to see it as simply finally learning to understand and see myself in the way I've always needed to, but that doesn't mean that I don't still hurt, and it doesn't mean I don't have something to offer other people. It also doesn't mean that I don't still have room to learn from others!!

Somethings in life we will never 'get rid of,' we may overcome the bondage that comes with those experiences and in turn receive and even greater freedom, but the pain is always there. It never fully leaves - and I thank God for that. I will never forget what I went through, and that pain drives me to share the Gospel today. If I made it through, someone else can too.

Once again, thanks to you who have replied with an understanding heart!

If you are in Portland, Oregon, let me know so I can tell you how to come see the show Jam Night, it's Christian based sketch-comedy music etc and it's hilarious. WE DO NEED LAUGHTER!!!

[Joseph]

Hi Jam,

Cool, I'm glad were past all that and I'm glad you're here.

Look forward to talking with you,
Joe

[Willow]

Jam... sure wish I was nearby and could tap into a jam night with ya. I'm wayyy down south in the boogie woogie land of country music stars though... haha. I think a jam night would go over big down here. It's very entertainment oriented community in nashville.

Amy

P.S. Your post sounds sooo much less threatening. THANKS ;)

[Jam Night]

it is not my responsibility to accept you and offer love.

jane

But it is your responsibility to condemn someone to hell?

Come on Jane. If I hurt you because of how aggresive I seemed in my post then, like I said, I am sorry. I should have spent more time learning and reading about who is here than simply stating what I felt. Personally I would rather someone be upfront and honest, no holds barred no sugar coating than to have someone beat around the bush and imply what they mean. But simply saying go to hell? That's the makings of spiritual abuse right there, someone who is so self-righteous they can decide who does and doesn't deserve to go to hell.

If you are truly saved then one thing ALL believers should be able to agree on is it IS our reponsibility to offer love. If we have any commandment it is that. As for acceptance, well, that's on you.

[Willow]

Well.. Jane's right... she doesn't have to do anything really. Jam.. you're gonna have to earn your way here... after a rocky start. But personally... I think yer cool!

[Jam Night]

Thank you very much for this posting. It is empowering and educational.

Gotta run!!

[Willow]

Take care!!!! Don't run when you can walk!!!

[mstar]

Welcome:)

[Joseph]

Hi again,

Relax, Jane was reacting to your extreme comments, so she hit you with extreme.
As you can see, you got a more explosive reaction from certain people because their wounds are most likely deeper. You said it yourself Jam, you didn't want it sugar coated, well brother, there ain't no sugar within miles of Janes comments.
Let it go and start over, Jane has been a great help to me and I value her friendship on this forum, and i think you will too. Nobody owes anybody anything here, we're all walking and getting through it together.

Joe

[Jam Night]

Not a single apology for you for coming across harshly and judging---

just an attack back at people for reacting to you....and yet I read apologies of others on the board....

geez, yeah you can still go to hell.


Jane - This is the last time I am going to bother with this. I DID apologize to you for my first post and how it may have seemed. I don't think you have actually read what I have written. As for hell, thanks for the invite, but I am quite happy with my first choice.

I REALLY think you need to see the comedy show. Laughter would be good.

[riverdove]

Hi Jam Night,

I'm pretty new here too and I was going to write you a reply. Then I read all the responses to you when you shared your story. Actually I'm so touched by all of you here. I was almost in tears from all your kindness shown here. You know the world needs people like you guys around here. Jam Night, I'm truly sorry to hear what you've gone through. You've gone through tough times and you've come out of the situation victorious. I'm encouraged to hear that and it's good for you. However, nobody is invincible. Only Christ is. You may be al lright now, but who knows some day some how (as long as we live) we will always have trials and tribulations. The Bible has a lot of ideal passages. Yes, we all need to have all those ideals, but it's a process. It goes through a long period of testing and molding. We can't do it alone. We do indeed need the human touch (like Jesus came as human for us so He can emphatize with us in all ways). His examples are what the ultimate mercy and compassion should be.

Let me tell you a very sad story. There was once a drug addict. He accepted Christ one day and later on felt the calling to be a pastor. He then became drug free for many years, got married, and even helped to establish a drug rehabilitation center reaching out to hundreds and thousands of drug addicts. He held great responsibilities and was the chair person to a board consisting of other pastors and staff members. One day, he was found dead at the foot of an apartment building. The day before he died, he actually went around to all his coworkers in the rehabilitation center and his last words were, "Please look after this place well." I bet his last thoughts were actually, "I wish someone (particularly from the Christian community) would understand my problem and love me just as Jesus would." He actually sang hymns before he jumped. It's hard to understand and yet it is not hard to understand. He probably went back to drugs and decided to end his life because he would bring shame to the name of Christianity and fail the people who he led to Christ. To me, I think it is very sad because in the Christian community, people don't permit failures without attaching a sense of guilt and shame. Very personal problems are never often shared in great lengths because to say that you have problems means to say you are weak. In other words, faithless--therefore nothing but a lousy Christian. Why? Because grace, mercy and acceptance were only preached, but never practised in real life. As a result, it produces pseudo Christians, pseudo faith and pseudo mercy and everything else. It's not the real thing. It actually does not save. It kills.

So, as to your comment that sometimes it require surgeries and not stroking, I think I would go with the stroking. It is only in the TLC that a person can gain acceptance, confidence and the will to go on as illustrated in the above real life story. And as in my case, church friends and family members did not understand the hurt inflicted on me as a result of SA. Did I do anything wrong? I probably have some issues which predispose me to SA, but to say that I deserve to be SAed or deny my hurts is inhuman. The key word here is "validating" the experience because people have been told that their problems with SA are actually not the real problems. The real problems is they themselves--denying the facts and shifting the blame to the hurting person now. See the difference? That's why hurting people are being revictimized and it has indeed become a vicious cycle because there has never been a break or a healing to take place ..... I probably will have many issues that God needs to "fix." I trust God that He will do the surgeries. He can do a better job than any of us. So, your facts are correct, but the mode of deliverence (sorry to say this) is far from being effective in bringing genuine healing to the human soul. We can speak of God's love, but the real love comes from accepting and restoring the individual dignity of each and every single person who is made in the image of God.

I'm still struggling and learning. Let's learn here together. God bless!

Riverdove

[Jam Night]

I hear you Joseph, but after my last reply to Jane I really don't have anything to say. I apologized, I learned, I stated how I felt, if she still wants to be so quick to send another to hell then let that be on her. I don't need to make everyone like me (obviosuly I guess huh?)

I am glad she has helped you, and I hope she continues too. I am sorry she went through whatever she has gone through, and I pray she will only be made stronger and more free as a result. But you can only dish out yourself to so many people, and I am not willing to subject myself to that kind of anger and judgement to someone else right now, especially someone I don't even know!

[gwen]

Thank you again for your responses folks, and forgive me for being so offensive. I should have spent more time reading than simply jumping in and telling people my opinion!


All's forgiven on my part, especially since the misunderstandings are cleared up. I hope you have forgiven me for any harshness that you felt from my post on your other thread. Welcome aboard. :)


Somethings in life we will never 'get rid of,' we may overcome the bondage that comes with those experiences and in turn receive and even greater freedom, but the pain is always there. It never fully leaves - and I thank God for that. I will never forget what I went through, and that pain drives me to share the Gospel today. If I made it through, someone else can too.


This is really true. What I went through for 10 years at our abusive, Bible-based cult "church" is a part of my personal history, just as your painful experiences are a part of your personal history. We left in August 2004. In the last 16 months God has brought our family a long way. There has been healing, though it is not complete, and I'm sure that it won't be until the day that I see him face to face. One thing I've come to realize is that the scars will always be there...a reminder of what I went through and the pain that I experienced. But one day recently, I came to the realization that Jesus still has his scars. In fact, that was how the disciples knew it was really him when he showed them his hands and side. He has shared in our suffering. I get great comfort in knowing that he's been there and he understands.


Once again, thanks to you who have replied with an understanding heart!


Take care, Jam night...:)

Gwen

[Jam Night]

Thank you for this post Riverdove. It was very heart felt and showed an genuine concern and desire to love.

I think alot of us just need TLC as you say, and I think that is really lacking in the church at large. More so GENUINE TLC, and yes, REAL forgiveness. We say words but our actions and hearts so often don't line up.

I think the key is being willing to listen and understand. Might sound funny coming from the guy who posted a fireball for my second post, but hopefully you can see I didn't run, I stayed with an open mind, I learned, and I changed my approach according to how people at this site prefer to be dealt with, according to their needs and the way this place has been socially established.

As for me, TLC was the drug that kept me in bondage. It wasn't until I got TOUGH love, so to speak. This brother listened to me, understood, sympathized, felt compassionate etc, but he wouldn't ever let me use my past to keep from my future success.

I would get emotional, depressed, paranoid, etc. etc. and I would push people away the moment I thought they were trying to control me, but he would keep down right cuss me out for letting the devil win. He would say things like, "Yeah your momma got raped in fornt of you, I heard you and I cried for you, but what's that got to do with you now?" This was hard to hear but I had to eventually come to realize I was the one who kept pushing myself down, I kept letting fear and especially the fear of more pain chase me from peace.

When people showed me TLC I would soak it up like a sponge or more like a drug and I would become immediately co-dependant, needing that person to CONSTANTLY be there or I wouldn't believe they were real. So TLC became the quick fix that I needed to feel validated, never actually look into myself and God for that.

It took a hard@$$ who loved me genuinely, despite how I mistreeted him, to finally empower me enough and make me believe in myself enough to break the cycle.

BUT: This is what I needed, not everyone needs that. Some people might even break if someone took that approach with them.

In any case, forgiveness is key, and realizing we all are different but we all are trying to get to the same place is also, I believe. Some need to swim, others can walk, I walked backwords, took a side path, tripped in a ditch, climbed a tree, tried to fly, broke my tail bone and wound up in the right place by grace in the end.

[gwen]

In any case, forgiveness is key, and realizing we all are different but we all are trying to get to the same place is also, I believe. Some need to swim, others can walk, I walked backwords, took a side path, tripped in a ditch, climbed a tree, tried to fly, broke my tail bone and wound up in the right place by grace in the end.

:D :D :D

[gwen]

Some people might even break if someone took that approach with them.


Yes, and I believe that there are people here that fit into that category.

[Kerrin]

Well.. Jane's right... she doesn't have to do anything really. Jam.. you're gonna have to earn your way here... after a rocky start. But personally... I think yer cool!

Yup , Amy's right, No-one HAS to do anything just because it's your belief, that's what the "ignore" button is for!
(I finally figured that out!).:rolleyes:
It's still the best point of recovery for me, as much as I foul it up; and I DO!!!
Opinionated people , such as myself , have a habit of rubbing others up the wrong way.
But it was those qualities in me that my church pummelled out of me, and I literally felt like the walking dead!:(
It's never my intention to irritate anyone, I'm actually very curious about "stuff" , so cut a long story very short, I'm glad the old 'irritating' me is coming back!!

In any case, forgiveness is key, and realizing we all are different but we all are trying to get to the same place is also, I believe. Some need to swim, others can walk, I walked backwords, took a side path, tripped in a ditch, climbed a tree, tried to fly, broke my tail bone and wound up in the right place by grace in the end.Quote Jam.

And what Gwen said too :Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Night
Some people might even break if someone took that approach with them.

Yes, and I believe that there are people here that fit into that category.

Ah , this is turning into a fun thread...........see, much good can come out of ANYTHING as we all stumble along on our healing paths!!!
Heaven will sure be a fun place!!:D

Oh and Amy , Fwiw; I watched a Harry Potter movie with Amy and found it rather boring, and although I do have a problem with 'witchcraft', only in that I don't want Amy dabbling in it......as the Bible instructs, it is as harmless as the fairy stories we read as kids.
(I think like everything, the key is for 'it' to not become an obsession!).
Things have sort of turned sour for Rowlings I believe........anyway, off track again!;) )

Welcome 'Jam....now you're talking a "language" I can relate to!;)
Love
Kerrin

[Joseph]

Absolutely, I understand. You need to work from where you're comfortable, we all do.

So, what kind of comedy show do you do? What's your part in it? I've enjoyed a couple of real good Christian comedians. That must be a hard proffession seeing that your probably always offending someone in the Christian community.
Not to many Christians can laugh I'm afraid, at least not where I'm from.

Have a nice day,
Joe

[jane]

But it is your responsibility to condemn someone to hell?

my saying this was not meant in anyway as a directive towards your spiritual walk. Simply a boundary put up by me with no decorum.


nothing more. nothing less. much like flipping you the bird.

if it triggers you, I'll take it back and just flip the bird.

[jane]

Come on Jane. If I hurt you because of how aggresive I seemed in my post then, like I said, I am sorry. I should have spent more time learning and reading about who is here than simply stating what I felt. Personally I would rather someone be upfront and honest, no holds barred no sugar coating than to have someone beat around the bush and imply what they mean. But simply saying go to hell? That's the makings of spiritual abuse right there, someone who is so self-righteous they can decide who does and doesn't deserve to go to hell.

first of all, look at the posts and the order that they are in. Since you posted your apology, I haven't been online.

second of all, I too prefer no holds barred honestly- so if you dish it out take it.

third- I too am from the black african american culture even though I have white skin. So I understand exactly what you are saying and responding the same.

fourth- addressed the go to hell thing.


You know I was all set to say, accept your apology and ready to move on.....
but here's a few things about me.

you came here and attacked another person's post. I use my ignore button when people just go on and on about something stupid. But when someone that I have listened to, cared about, prayed about and has listened to me has been attacked (often by a new comer who has a cure) THAT IS WHEN I REACT SO HARSHLY.

Then you have the audacity to apologize, not wait for a response and go dish out more advice and tell me what I HAVE TO DO TO BE A CHRISTIAN> then think you are so funny telling me that I need to have a sense of humor.

buddy, I don't have a sense of humor when someone comes here attacks someone, other's apologize quickly while you attack their reactions- and then you use me as some sort of comedy routine.

Here's the middle finger buddy.

From now on, I will ignore- out of respect for the other's here.

I truely hope that you find the healing that you seek here......


jane
who serves Christ in truth

[jane]

If you are truly saved then one thing ALL believers should be able to agree on is it IS our reponsibility to offer love. If we have any commandment it is that. As for acceptance, well, that's on you.


here's the quote in case you didn't know what I was referring to.

love does not equal allowing someone to come and attack the people that you already care about.

okokokok - my ignore button is now on. If you want to continue a dialoge PM me because I am not going to continue on in a flame war and watch people that I care about get triggered by the both of us, pick sides and end up in a fight.

jane

[Willow]

Oh and Amy , Fwiw; I watched a Harry Potter movie with Amy and found it rather boring, and although I do have a problem with 'witchcraft', only in that I don't want Amy dabbling in it......as the Bible instructs, it is as harmless as the fairy stories we read as kids.
(I think like everything, the key is for 'it' to not become an obsession!).
Things have sort of turned sour for Rowlings I believe........anyway, off track again!;) )


Hey... glad to hear it! Narnia does seem to be the new Harry Potter now, eh? Something about kids and magic just go together.

[Voyager]

I've been thinking about Jam Night's first post and how it came across to all of us. It did sound a lot like the abuse that was used on us, and that's what triggered me. However, when we have been trained and influenced by this style of "leadership" for so long, it can very easily become a part of the way WE deal with people. It takes some time for this to wear off. I know it did for me anyway.

Jam's initial post was not the first time a newcomer has come onto the forum with loaded language like "get over it and move on" and "lose the victim mentality". I've seen it happen before with similar reactions from the forum members. It would be nice if there was a sign that read "Check your weapons at the door" and gave a short list of triggering phrases. I'm sure that more than a few people have left the forum after a confrontation like this. Maybe if they knew ahead of time what kind of reaction these phrases might cause, they would tone it down a bit.

:cool:

[Janice]

Um....I'm staying out of this one! :eek:

[Katie]

It is interesting how this site occasionally attracts people who play mind games.

Those who are sincere about being here in order to recover from spiritual abuse usually introduce themselves, say they are new, and sometimes share a few things about their situation.

The manipulative ones seem to have a pattern. They drop their bomb, then accuse everyone here of being mean, then turn the tables and have everyone apologizing to them. Usually after stirring the pot for a few days, poof, they're gone.

I can't understand why anyone would introduce themselves that way to a group of people that they sincerely want to be a part of.

But then maybe they weren't here to recover. I wonder why they were here. Maybe it is entertaining to toy with people while they are vulnerable. I wonder what kind of people would do that.

Anyway, this isn't necessarily about the person that started this thread. Anyone who has been here for long knows the pattern.

Voyager, I don't think the problem is that people here are easily triggered by someone who "oops" mistakenly said the wrong thing. I think this is a group of people with a very low tolerance for bullshit.

[Janice]

It is interesting how this site occasionally attracts people who play mind games.

Those who are sincere about being here in order to recover from spiritual abuse usually introduce themselves, say they are new, and sometimes share a few things about their situation.

The manipulative ones seem to have a pattern. They drop their bomb, then accuse everyone here of being mean, then turn the tables and have everyone apologizing to them. Usually after stirring the pot for a few days, poof, they're gone.

I can't understand why anyone would introduce themselves that way to a group of people that they sincerely want to be a part of.

But then maybe they weren't here to recover. I wonder why they were here. Maybe it is entertaining to toy with people while they are vulnerable. I wonder what kind of people would do that.

Anyway, this isn't necessarily about the person that started this thread. Anyone who has been here for long knows the pattern.

Voyager, I don't think the problem is that people here are easily triggered by someone who "oops" mistakenly said the wrong thing. I think this is a group of people with a very low tolerance for bullshit.


LOL..VERY WELL PUT, KATIE! ;)

[Joseph]

Great insight, very well said Katie, thanks.
Joe

[jane]

Katie,

You said it better than me-

eloquently and with a level head.

wisdom and all that.....you should led a political movement or something against the abuse that people do in the name of religious freedom in our country!

thankyou.
Hope you had a great holiday.
love,
jane

[Voyager]

I wanted to clarify on my last post. As I get further away from legalistic religious fundamentalism, I find myself trying to look at everyone's point of view on certain matters. I was as offended as any of you at Jam's initial post. But then I had to ask myself, "Why do many newcomers come onto the forum with this type of loaded language?" The answer is - this is the way fundamentalists communicate - of which I was one.

Being involved in abusive religion always invloves shame and fear as the motivating factors. To think that this teaching did not influence the way I communicated to people in my life is quite a stretch. I know that when I was being shamed and manipulated with fear, I was projecting the same onto others. Now I try to never do that - but it's not easy to break the habit. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not all the way there yet.

So, the question is - do we turn away people away when they come onto the forum using shame and fear to try to fix the people here? I know when I first came out of spiritual abuse, I was still using these methods that I had been taught for so long. I probably still do it from time to time (just ask Janice - LOL!). Are my intentions wrong? NO. It's just a way that I was taught, and I thought it was of God. What goes in usually comes out.

Think about where you were when you first came out of spiritual abuse. To go from a camp that used shame and fear to manipulate followers to a place that doesn't allow it at all can be fairly traumatic. You come onto a forum and use the methods you have been taught for years (maybe not even consciously), and you get told off. I don't think it's wrong to tell someone how you wish to be treated (or not treated) - and I was the first one to tell Jam off about it. However, trying to look at all of this from Jam's perspective is something that I didn't initially take into consideration. My triggers went off and I reacted accordingly.

Anyway, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am just trying to look at this from everyone's perspective.

:cool:

[Willow]

I for one was totally impressed at how Jam was able to change his approach when he realized what an offense he had caused.

[Voyager]

I for one was totally impressed at how Jam was able to change his approach when he realized what an offense he had caused.
I was impressed too Willow. But for many years, I was taught that Jam's initial approach was the Godly way to deal with things. It takes time to get that out of your system. It can be traumatizing to wake up to the fact that people in the real world cannot succeed using shame, fear, and manipulation on people. I'm not trying to turn this into a "poor Jam" thread... just trying to look it from all angles.

:cool:

[Willow]

I'm not trying to turn this into a "poor Jam" thread... just trying to look it from all angles.

:cool:

I know... but the thing that makes the difference after an approach like Jam's... is the response to the criticism. This is the real test. This is where someone either attacks back, or listens and responds... see what I mean? I mean... I was as indoctrinated, black and white, dogmatic as anyone else in my church before the rubber hit the road and I realized it was hurting people.

[Kerrin]

I know... but the thing that makes the difference after an approach like Jam's... is the response to the criticism. This is the real test. This is where someone either attacks back, or listens and responds... see what I mean? I mean... I was as indoctrinated, black and white, dogmatic as anyone else in my church before the rubber hit the road and I realized it was hurting people.

You guys have been here longer than I, and I too have had my share of stumbling and offending people, (still do!!), but I think as what has happened here Jam has stayed, and does appear to be taking a different approach........which leads to me to suspect he is sincere.
Anyway, as someone pinted out, one tends to earn the trust and, (perhaps) right to be here..........but again, as I 've said before I guess that is the purpose of the Ignore button if someone is really 'triggering'.

I have been granted 'forgiveness' here many times as I 'find' my way.........
I don't know what I'm trying to say.........not a good day today!:( :confused:
Love
Kerrin

[Willow]

Kerrin... HUGGGSSSSSS

[butterfly]

:) [[[[Kerrin]]]] I never saw you post anything like he did.
You are carefull not to hurt anyone. Well I do know you do have your moments. Still you never posted like that to all of us. butterfly

[Jam Night]

I was impressed at everybodies response to my question about judgement. Instead of remaining upset, people genuinely tried to explain to me why what I said hurt, and therefore I learned.

I don't believe we can ever have a fair shot at change if people don't tell you when and WHY you offend them. Iron sharpens iron right? That's friction and heat.

This is a different way of comunicating for me - not just less aggresively or whatever, but also everything being in TEXT!!! So it has already been a real learning experience for me.

[gwen]

I was impressed at everybodies response to my question about judgement. Instead of remaining upset, people genuinely tried to explain to me why what I said hurt, and therefore I learned.

I don't believe we can ever have a fair shot at change if people don't tell you when and WHY you offend them. Iron sharpens iron right? That's friction and heat.

This is a different way of comunicating for me - not just less aggresively or whatever, but also everything being in TEXT!!! So it has already been a real learning experience for me.


:) I'm so glad that you have an open mind and are willing to learn!

[jjc9497]

I was impressed at everybodies response to my question about judgement. Instead of remaining upset, people genuinely tried to explain to me why what I said hurt, and therefore I learned.

I don't believe we can ever have a fair shot at change if people don't tell you when and WHY you offend them. Iron sharpens iron right? That's friction and heat.

This is a different way of comunicating for me - not just less aggresively or whatever, but also everything being in TEXT!!! So it has already been a real learning experience for me.


I hope you stay and continue to learn from us as we will learn from you.

[Enochwar]

I was impressed at everybodies response to my question about judgement. Instead of remaining upset, people genuinely tried to explain to me why what I said hurt, and therefore I learned.

I don't believe we can ever have a fair shot at change if people don't tell you when and WHY you offend them. Iron sharpens iron right? That's friction and heat.

This is a different way of comunicating for me - not just less aggresively or whatever, but also everything being in TEXT!!! So it has already been a real learning experience for me.


It might help if you went tothe "no Cross talk" forum and scrolled down to last year's threads locate Tim's threads "netiquette" and "Internet forums". They helped me as to guidelines and how to communicate in recovery forums.

[Voyager]

Okay, I think I've got it down to sentence. Everything I "tried" to explain above can be condensed to one sentence:

I don't want anyone to try to fix me.

For so many years, I was involved in a system that tried to fix me. It brainwashed me, and manipulated me to fear doing wrong things. After I was in that system for a while, I noticed everyone trying to fix everyone. So I just went along with the program.

I can see where I have offended people by trying to fix them. Some of you on this forum are probably slapping your thigh and saying to yourself right now, "Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!!" LOL!!! Well, I can finally see what I was doing wrong that triggered others. None of us want anyone to fix us anymore!

Doh! It took me a while to figure it out.

:(

[Kerrin]

Okay, I think I've got it down to sentence. Everything I "tried" to explain above can be condensed to one sentence:

I don't want anyone to try to fix me.For so many years, I was involved in a system that tried to fix me. It brainwashed me, and manipulated me to fear doing wrong things. After I was in that system for a while, I noticed everyone trying to fix everyone. So I just went along with the program.

I can see where I have offended people by trying to fix them. Some of you on this forum are probably slapping your thigh and saying to yourself right now, "Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!!" LOL!!! Well, I can finally see what I was doing wrong that triggered others. None of us want anyone to fix us anymore!Doh! It took me a while to figure it out.

:(

:D :D :D
Well said Voyager!!!!!!
((((((((((((Shirley)))))))))))))))
I love it!!!!!!You are great!!!!!!:D
Love
Kerrin;)

[Reg]

Voyager, I don't think the problem is that people here are easily triggered by someone who "oops" mistakenly said the wrong thing. I think this is a group of people with a very low tolerance for bullshit.
I'm with Janice on this one. :D

Well put Katie.