No Pastors? Time to lose the victim mentality

[Jam Night]

The thread that I read from Joseph recently regarding Pastors and ministers really boggles my mind. Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.

But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?

It's time we stopped thinking like victims and realizing the power God has given us. WE MAKE our choices, no one else. No Pastor can lead you astray if you are truly seeking the things of God. ! Corinthians 1:30 says that He has already built into WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION. He has already given us everything we need to make it in this world and the next. The Bible also tells us that our spirit will bear witness with the truth.

Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions. It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.

If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain.

[butterfly]

Jam Night,
This is a Spiritual Abuse forum for a reason. For us who have been abused. IT IS NOT OUR FAULT SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR BIBLE VERSES TO YOURSELF. PLEASE DON"T BLAME US. YOU WERE NOT THERE YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPEN TO THE PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH ABUSE FROM CHRISTIANS SO WE DON"T NEED YOURS. WE ARE HEAR TO HEAL. BUTTERFLY

[ninaspirit]

Jam Night,
This is a Spiritual Abuse forum for a reason. For us who have been abused. IT IS NOT OUR FAULT SO PLEASE KEEP YOUR BIBLE VERSES TO YOURSELF. PLEASE DON"T BLAME US. YOU WERE NOT THERE YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPEN TO THE PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH ABUSE FROM CHRISTIANS SO WE DON"T NEED YOURS. WE ARE HEAR TO HEAL. BUTTERFLY


AGREED. NINAS. Thank you Butterfly.

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Jam Night]The thread that I read from Joseph recently regarding Pastors and ministers really boggles my mind. Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.

But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?

It's time we stopped thinking like victims and realizing the power God has given us. WE MAKE our choices, no one else. No Pastor can lead you astray if you are truly seeking the things of God. ! Corinthians 1:30 says that He has already built into WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION. He has already given us everything we need to make it in this world and the next. The Bible also tells us that our spirit will bear witness with the truth.

I wish it were that easy. The sad fact is anyone can be deceived. Magicians do it for a living. From a scriptural standpoint there is higher standard on pastors. The sad thing is abusive leaders forgot to read that fine print. It is axiomatic to say if there is unsound preaching and leading, it goes to follow there are unsound followers.

You are right there are good pastors and leaders. I will grant you when one stays stuck in the resentment, it does sound the mumbling drunk at the back of the bus. The bulk of us in the forum had a "really bad trip" in our church experience.

We are something of a 12 step group in this respect. We usually do not offer advice or feedback unless asked first. Our post are usually in the first person. I share my experience strength and hope. Hearing how others have dealt with spiritual abuse is how we get better.

How can you be helpful? Be an empathetic listener. Read up on spiritual abuse, cults, and mind control. The website built off of this forum has some excellent Christian and secular links. Many former members, myself included until recently, have a rabid aversion to scripture. Instead of being the light unto our path, it was used a tool of control and hurtful manipulation. After the abuse, there is a feeling of "Oh, No, I am not going through THAT again." Trying to suggest church involvement, prayer, or scripture to one who is recently out, less than two years is like prescribing a rape victim a subscription to a pornographic publication. There needs to be time and space for healing. When a church goes sour, it takes a lot members with it and it takes years to recover. I was in a bible based cult. I was also a member of a church where the senoir pastor murdered his wife. So I speak from experience.

You are welcome to pray for us. We can always appreciate the thoughfulness. I hope you found the perspective helpful.

[Voyager]

Sounds like we have a pro-abuse pasturd onboard folks. You can always tell by the level of shaming in the post. Probably just a drive-by as usual.

:rolleyes:

[Voyager]

But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?
The Bible says that "leaders" are to become servants. Now shut up and go get me something to eat... become a servant for a change!

:D :D :D

[Voyager]

Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want.
Are you insane? When did you escape? That's like saying somebody wanted to be raped!

:confused:

[Joseph]

(The thread that I read from Joseph recently regarding Pastors and ministers really boggles my mind. Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.)

First of all, if you read my threads, I said that I KNOW that there are good pastors out there, but in my experience I've seen the latter. I've never said ALL.
Are you denying that this exists?

(But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?)

Tell me exactly what you're reffering too.

(It's time we stopped thinking like victims and realizing the power God has given us. WE MAKE our choices, no one else. No Pastor can lead you astray if you are truly seeking the things of God. ! Corinthians 1:30 says that He has already built into WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION. He has already given us everything we need to make it in this world and the next. The Bible also tells us that our spirit will bear witness with the truth.)

Not every person that walks through the doors of a church are fully knowledgable of the Bible, as a matter of fact, most of them probably aren't. There is a certain amount of trust given to the leaders and some pastors and leaders are lying, and deceiving.

(Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions.)

I can't even take this serious. I watched a pastor take 150 grand in one year from a church with 180 people in it and he shouldn't be held responsible? How are my own actions responsible for this? We want to be lead astray? How?

(It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.)

I agree with that! But it also pertains to the pastors and leaders, and they will be especially judged by God if they mislead like some have done.

(If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain)

I submit to God, not man. Man is the reason we are here working through the pain.
The pastors and leaders need to stop whining about people not submitting to them.

The fact is this, alot of people are being hurt by pastors and leaders like the ones I'm referring too. It's no joke and your not going to belittle what people have experienced here. This is the same kind of nonsense I've seen before, "It's not us, there is something wrong with you" whenever someone questioned the leadership, this was generally the response. Don't try to turn this around.

I think it's time for the pastors and leaders that are abusing to lose the victim mentallity. The righteous Pastors have absolutely nothing to be concerned with here.

Sorry I boggled your mind,
Joe

[Voyager]

Sorry I boggled your mind.
Boggle away Joe. The only ones boggled will be the people who want to perpetuate the abuse.

Merry Christmas!

:cool:

[jjc9497]

To Jam Night (Yes, I left out the "Dear" in the salutation on purpose)


Yes, it was my choice that my pastor tried to rape me on my 16th birthday. I wanted to be led astray--he even told me so. You sound just like him.

[Janice]

The thread that I read from Joseph recently regarding Pastors and ministers really boggles my mind. Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.

But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?

It's time we stopped thinking like victims and realizing the power God has given us. WE MAKE our choices, no one else. No Pastor can lead you astray if you are truly seeking the things of God. ! Corinthians 1:30 says that He has already built into WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION. He has already given us everything we need to make it in this world and the next. The Bible also tells us that our spirit will bear witness with the truth.

Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions. It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.

If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain.

This was obvioulsy written by a Pasturd seeking attention! Must not be getting enough attention from the congregation.

I, for one, will not give him/her/IT the satisfaction of any more responses. This too shall pass and if we ignore him/her/ IT, they will go away!

[Jerry]

Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions. It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.

If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain.

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I guess Samson isn't the only one with the "Jawbone of an Ass"
Jerry

[Eleanor]

The leaders of my sister's group have spread lies and untruths about me- have told her and others in their 'community' that I have demons and that I am cruel to our mother.They invaded my privacy and then twisted and distorted things.

What did I do to them to make them do that? I have known of other much much worse situations and read of them here as well.

NO Jam. Abuse of power and bullying usually accompanies much deceit and manipulation. OTHERWISE people would immediately recognize it for what it is.

Now, go play in the yard.

Eleanor.

[jane]

go to hell.

[Reg]

The thread that I read from Joseph recently regarding Pastors and ministers really boggles my mind. Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.

But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?

It's time we stopped thinking like victims and realizing the power God has given us. WE MAKE our choices, no one else. No Pastor can lead you astray if you are truly seeking the things of God. ! Corinthians 1:30 says that He has already built into WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION. He has already given us everything we need to make it in this world and the next. The Bible also tells us that our spirit will bear witness with the truth.

Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions. It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.

If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain.

Whoever you are, the wonderful people here are very experienced in guilt tripping and any kind of manipulation. Want to come here and make a contribution? Read Toxic Faith by Jack Felton and Steve Arterburn. You should know who they are. I heard Steve speak at Saddleback a couple of years ago. He is well respected in healthy churches. Is yours healthy?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0877888256/qid=1135531273/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-5338409-7628819?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

If you have the nerve to read it and maybe are a pastor, you will see how off-base you are in coming here as a guest and unannounced, giving advise.

ADVISE IS SOMETHING MORE BLESSED TO GIVE THAN IT IS TO RECEIVE.

That applies to a lot of those who try to fix others and have no love for them.

Mr. Pastor, why don't you re-read 1Cor 13........very slowly....... and very carefully.

[Joseph]

I'm not playing your game. We know what the Bible says that's why we're not sitting in your church, we love Jesus not the domination and oppression that your selling. We're here to bring healing and support to each other with love, your here to start trouble. Your probably an abusive pastor or a leader and you didn't accidentally find this forum, so your probably watching someone here. You don't use your name because you know someone here will expose you and what you're really all about, so you hide. You are operating in the dark and behind peoples backs where your comfortable. Make no mistake about it, if you are misleading and abusive, Jane is right, you will go to hell, all the manipulating and mind control in the world won't get you out of this one.
Come clean or Jam it,
Joe

[ex-shep]

This was obvioulsy written by a Pasturd seeking attention! Must not be getting enough attention from the congregation.

I, for one, will not give him/her/IT the satisfaction of any more responses. This too shall pass and if we ignore him/her/ IT, they will go away![/QUOTE]


I am not sure if it truly was a rabble rouser or just somebody uninformed. It could be wrong, and will neither be the first or the last, but sounds like the latter. We shall see.

[ex-shep]

. Want to come here and make a contribution? Read Toxic Faith by Jack Felton and Steve Arterburn. You should know who they are. I heard Steve speak at Saddleback a couple of years ago. He is well respected in healthy churches. Is yours healthy?

The fact that Steve Arterburn spoke at Saddleback is reassuring, especially in light of the posts on PDC.

[truth]

WE MAKE our choices, no one else.

Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions. It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.

If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain.


Wow, thank you - in several short paragraphs you have diagnosed us and our issues better than we have! Wow, that's great, thank you - it's good to know we have a true expert here --- that really understands us and our problems....hey forget about the leading psychologists, book authors, treatment centers, websites and experts - hey they're just supporting a group of whiney victims - they really don't have an understanding of the problem -- you do!

Yes, that's probably right - how dare we touch these pastors? they aren't abusive --- we just ASKED for it, right? They are perfect, they are God's representatives and we're just those lowlife fools who don't get it yet - whiners and complainers projecting their issues on the poor pastors.....yes, that's right you need to keep on with this and tell the people here who have been molested, physically, sexually, verbally, emotionally and every other way abused by their pastors that it's all just them and their problem being projected on the innocent pastor! that 's really good, is that why Catholic priests are being indicted everywhere --- gee maybe you better tell the legal system they are wrong, too....and these people are scapegoats, boy thanks Jam Night, it's really good to have you here with us, with posters like you - we never need to go back to an abusive church --- we'll just have one right here! Right now, if anyone needs repentance --- it's you, Brother!

truth

[truth]

.....and another thing.....your completely insensitive, lack of understanding, "pull yourself up by the bootstrings and shut up" remarks are why a good number of us aren't in churches today and the ones that are are in church are in healthy, grace-oriented congregations.....we are all too familiar with your type of mentality and thinking and theology and the truth is, if your remarks are any iindicator of the state your are in with regards to yourself and your own problems --- you know what? you need to be here even more than most of us do because I think most of us wouldn't begin to talk to ourselves the way you are talking to us and most probably yourself as well!

[truth]

....and another thing (and I swear this is it) every "whine" and every "complaint" is not spoken by a group of people who are just losers or complainers by nature -- every "whine" and "complaint" represents days, minutes, months and years of angers and tensions that were forced to be repressed because the "wonderful system" you so readily defend never allows people to constructively and mutually communicate differences with their pastors, the thinking as you are so quick to point out is always that the pastor is innocent and always right and the people are "whiners and complainers" as you say if they disagree, therefore the people are forced to withold their true feelings and thoughts until they finally reach a "safe place and refuge" like this forum, where they have to spend countless hours making up for "lost time" because they were never ever allowed to express themselves.....yeah, it gets really really raw here sometimes, you won't be hearing many pretty stories or church and pastor accolades here but you know what? you'll proably not hear much deception and probably will never ever hear many lies either --- so which God that you serve will show up ? the one that only listens to lying Christians that hide their real feelings and say what they think God wants to hear? or the real Christians that have real intimacy and a relationship with God that's strong enough to tell the truth - good, bad and ugly truth? I kind of think the God we serve here is the one that states over and over in the Bible that we serve, the God of truth. At least that's who I choose to serve.

We were never "good enough" we never will be --- we were saved because He loved us first and His Grace and His mercy endures and triumphs and will continue to triumph --- even despite people like you that try to twist the truth!

that's all...

[ex-shep]

.....and another thing.....your completely insensitive, lack of understanding, "pull yourself up by the bootstrings and shut up" remarks are why a good number of us aren't in churches today and the ones that are are in church are in healthy, grace-oriented congregations.....we are all too familiar with your type of mentality and thinking and theology and the truth is, if your remarks are any iindicator of the state your are in with regards to yourself and your own problems --- you know what? you need to be here even more than most of us do because I think most of us wouldn't begin to talk to ourselves the way you are talking to us and most probably yourself as well!




I can certainly relate to the pull yourself by the bootstraps. I wish it were that easy. I would have recovered decades ago. No such luck, oh well. I got from well meaning Christians who said why don't you just reestablish your walk with the Lord and you will get better. My parents hit with "it was just a phase why don't you just get over it". The best help in the first few months and years was from the one who had been there seen it done and got the T Shirt. We never asked to book our cruise with White Star Lines, but what stories we can tell. Not a bad deal after all. The fact that I was not the only and did not step off a spaceship from Mars was most comforting.

[Janice]

Wow, thank you - in several short paragraphs you have diagnosed us and our issues better than we have! Wow, that's great, thank you - it's good to know we have a true expert here --- that really understands us and our problems....hey forget about the leading psychologists, book authors, treatment centers, websites and experts - hey they're just supporting a group of whiney victims - they really don't have an understanding of the problem -- you do!

Yes, that's probably right - how dare we touch these pastors? they aren't abusive --- we just ASKED for it, right? They are perfect, they are God's representatives and we're just those lowlife fools who don't get it yet - whiners and complainers projecting their issues on the poor pastors.....yes, that's right you need to keep on with this and tell the people here who have been molested, physically, sexually, verbally, emotionally and every other way abused by their pastors that it's all just them and their problem being projected on the innocent pastor! that 's really good, is that why Catholic priests are being indicted everywhere --- gee maybe you better tell the legal system they are wrong, too....and these people are scapegoats, boy thanks Jam Night, it's really good to have you here with us, with posters like you - we never need to go back to an abusive church --- we'll just have one right here! Right now, if anyone needs repentance --- it's you, Brother!

truth


ROFL! Go Truth! :D

[Eleanor]

Jam,

You have a problem with us?
Take it up with Jesus.
Talk to Him about the same things about you posted here.
Go on, 'tell' on us.
Then read the red print in your New Testament.

One of His sheep,
Eleanor

[Jerry]

go to hell.
Dear Jane,,,
Simple,,,,Concise,,,,to the point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I like it !!!! :D

[Reg]

. Want to come here and make a contribution? Read Toxic Faith by Jack Felton and Steve Arterburn. You should know who they are. I heard Steve speak at Saddleback a couple of years ago. He is well respected in healthy churches. Is yours healthy?

The fact that Steve Arterburn spoke at Saddleback is reassuring, especially in light of the posts on PDC.
I like what you posted on another thread about this.....

Where I have to be careful is not to get overly paranoid and go back to distrusting every church under the sun. The geographic cure does not cure anything. I cannot leave a church everytime there is something wrong. There is never a perfect church. No easy answer on this one. I am powerless. The AA slogans of take what you like and leave the rest and let go and let God are the best points of reference I have. It get curiouser and curioser.
I admit that Saddleback has some beliefs I can't go along with. However, I enjoyed myself when I was there and considered it a relatively healthy church. It has helped a lot of people with it's CR Ministry.

BTW, I also heard Dr. Henry Cloud & John Townsend speak at the same conference. I'm sure you will agree with me that they are above reproach and one of the best in what they do in the Christian arena.

[gwen]

But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders?



I don't know if we'll see Jam Night any more...could be another "drive by" like Voyager said...I'm sorry for the new ones that may never had to deal with one of these before. I remember the first one I dealt with...it left me triggered for the rest of the day. Anyway, it's bound to happen from time to time. At least we can recognize it when it happens!

So, Jam Night, if you do return...WHAT DOES the Word say about leaders? A lot! And a lot is negative!!! Jesus had more difficulty with the religious leaders of his day than any sinner that he encountered! It was the religious leaders that instigated him being put on the cross! And how many scriptures talk about discerning false leadership? It also says in James that teachers will be judged more strictly.

Christian leaders are supposed to be a servant to all. Jesus was quite clear on that issue. He himself came to serve, not be served. However, these religious leaders that the people on the forum have encountered, myself included, lorded their leadership over the people under them in very abusive ways. And we had no recourse to address their abuse. They are considered the final authority. For me and my family, due to mind control issues, we felt that we could not leave the "church", which was a Bible-based cult. You need to do some research on cults, abusive churches, and mind control, if you truly believe the misconceptions that we got what we asked for! I considered myself a strong Christian before joining the "church" that we were involved with. I read my Bible. But these "teachers" are quite "slick" at twisting scriptures. Believe me, I know! My dad has said for years, and I now believe it fully, "Anyone can make the Bible say whatever they want it to say!" Take things out of context, not understand the subleties of the meanings of the original language, not understand "who" the particular passage of scripture is being written to, etc. and it is VERY easy to twist the true meanings.

Yes, I am a victim. So are others on this forum. I would never tell someone who was raped to "lose the victim mentality". These people on this forum have been spiritually raped. We are in various stages of recovery. We don't want to be victimized again. We are learning to overcome our experiences and continue our lives. This forum is a place of healing...except when people come along and try to tell us such things as you did in your post.

[Meg Evenstar]

Yes, I am a victim. So are others on this forum. I would never tell someone who was raped to "lose the victim mentality". These people on this forum have been spiritually raped. We are in various stages of recovery. We don't want to be victimized again. We are learning to overcome our experiences and continue our lives. This forum is a place of healing...except when people come along and try to tell us such things as you did in your post.

Gwen, you have said it so well, but I had to comment on this part of your post. Spiritually raped? Yes, that is what happened to me but I did not realise it. I lost my innocents at CPB Church, that much I knew, but I had not connected all of the dots until this forum. Yes, I thought I had dealt with it and put it behind me, but what I realised was that I had simply pushed it down because I wanted to forget it like it never happened or something, but God had other plans. Since coming here and reading other people's experiences I have remembered things that happened to me that I had not realised had happened. I know I'm not making sense. It's like a bad dream. You remember it in pieces until you have recollected the whole thing. As I have read your story, Mary's, Eleanor's and many, many more I began to realise that there was a pattern and that what they spoke of had also happened to me or I watched it happen to others at my old church.

All I can say is thanks to all of you for waking up in me things that I needed to remember and finally deal with. I didn't just go through this once but twice. I guess I didn't learn how to recognize the signs the first time around. In fact I had seen it many times before, but never actually gotten caught in the snare because I did not have a family back then so I just dropped out of church thinking it was me and not realising what it really was. When I married and had children though, we together as a husband and wife, wanted to raise our children for the Lord and do all things right, so we decided to commit and stick it out. Apparently him more than me because when it got really bad I knew we needed to bail out, but he didn't fully understand what we were in at the time, so we stayed and paid in more ways than one.

Anyway, Jam, it is real and if you haven't seen it up close and personal, just wait, because you will. Unless of course, you are one of those that thinks the Holy Spirit is not capable of doing His job and therefore you must do it for Him just to make sure these poor souls keep on the right track. You know, the Holy Spirit isn't strong enough or they aren't smart enough so you have to smack em in line so that they honor God like you know they should.

Meg

[Willow]

The thread that I read from Joseph recently regarding Pastors and ministers really boggles my mind. Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.

hi Jam Night, I'm absolutely certain you are taking Joseph's statement out of the context he intended. There was an incident of spying by an abusive pastor on this forum that he was addressing. I hope this clears things up for you. As far as whining is concerned? I spent quite awhile venting on this forum and it provided much much much healing to have empathetic people who had experienced similar situations. Please don't play "blame the victim" here. Thanks

Amy

[leelees]

.
If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain.


:( :confused:
Well Jam,
I am very new to this site and although what happened to me was about 5 months ago, its come to a head in recent weeks....
i would like to take this opportunity to thankyou for confirming what my old church leaders said...yes of course its all my fault and yes i dont want to lead a happy life and i want to be miserable in every relationship i have in the future and in any church i try...cos we all want abuse because its really nice......UH I THINK NOT!!! (can i emphasise the capitals any louder!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: )


Its people like you jam who prevent us from dealing with all our problems and hurt......is there something you get from seein other people unhappy, some high or something?!
I consider you and your views untrustworthy and hurtful and as bad as those people who abuse!
Leanne

[leelees]

you and these horrible leaders are DEVILS in disguise!

[Pinkie Pie]

Jam Night,

You completely miss the point of this forum. It is not for us to have pity parties, or to remain victims. It is to get victory over the abuse that has been done to us. That doesn't sound like a victim mentality to me. To continue the analogy of the rape victim, just because a rape victim is in therapy and has a need to talk about what happened to her (or him!) and work through solutions for healing doesn't mean she/he is wallowing in self pity.

And as far as WANTING to be led astray, since you are obviously well versed in scripture, may I suggest you go back and do a "word" study on Wolves in Sheeps Clothing, and Pharisees (whom even JESUS accused of leading people astray).

And for good measure, why don't you re-read "Mark 13:22: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

The fact that you think people let themselves get led astray, should be a warning sign to YOU that you are a sitting duck for a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

[Joseph]

To Pinkie and Leesie,

I would recommend you read Jam's other posts after this first one. Although this first post was abrasive, although I believe you are justified for your reaction from this post, I think you'll feel better about things from this point on. He didn't realize at first how aggressive he came off to and he has conveyed that to everyone and apologized.

Thanks,
Joe

[leelees]

im sorry jam

[Joseph]

Oops, I'm sorry, I meant LeeLees not Leesies.

Welcome Leelees! I hope you'll stay and share, I think you'll find it very warm and safe here, look forward to reading your posts.

Joe

[agapeluv]

It was good to read the Jam had apologized, but I wanted to make a few comments from the original post. I could tell the intentions from the post was good, but it does take time to heal from abuse, SOMETIMES YEARS.

JAM SAID----(((((Not all Pastors and leaders are money hungry wolves.------NO, but a lot are and when a person has been in a church where they are, it takes time to heal from this and hard to want to give when the offering plate is passed.

JAM SAID,---(((((But more so than that fact alone, what about what the Word says about leaders? -------YES, what does the word say about leaders The Bible says they are SUPPOSE to be an example to the flock and lead the flock in the RIGHT WAY. They are SUPPOSE to lead their own homes and be an example in that area, not have their children come up to others telling them THEY ARE OLDER THAN DIRT and have learned this from their dad, THE PASTOR. He and his wife had no problem correcting other peoples kids, but you better not say a word to his kids.

JAM SAID, It's time we stopped thinking like victims and realizing the power God has given us.---There are people all over the country who have been victimized by leaders in the church not only sexually but verbally as well. You take a little child who has been abused by a church leader, that is definately a VICTIM.

JAM SAID,---- (((WE MAKE our choices, no one else. No Pastor can lead you astray if you are truly seeking the things of God.)))------Many a pastor has led a church astray. There are lots of people who refuse to go to church anymore who are very good Christians because of being abused by the pastor and other leaders in the church. IF my hubby and I would have left our former church when WE wanted to and not waited on the Lords' timing, we definately would have been a couple with no desire to go to church anywhere. JAM POSTED---- ! Corinthians 1:30 says that He has already built into WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION. He has already given us everything we need to make it in this world and the next. The Bible also tells us that our spirit will bear witness with the truth.
Too many of us are lead astray because it is ultimately what we want. We don't want to give up our will, and then we use Pastors and leaders as our scapegoats. The truth is we blame leaders to avoid being held accountable for our own actions. It's time we take a good look at OURSELVES and begin to hold OURSELVES responsible. When we get to the gates of heaven, God isn't going to judge our sins by what another person has done! He will judge you according to the choices YOU MADE.))))-----HOW TRUE, but God is also going to judge the pastors on how they led the church and there are a lot of people who need support from others by showing them love in order for them to realize that not all pastors are abusive.

JAM SAID----If we continue to whine and blame others for our failure to REALLY submit ourselves to the Will of God, we will forever remain in bondage and in a cycle of abuse, never seeing that thing in us that is the true cause of all the pain------That is why there are support groups such as this one. I looked and looked on the internet before we left our former church to find a support group such as this online, to no avail. I am very thankful to the Lord that I have found this group as I still have a LOT of hurt to overcome, it took 17 years accumulation, does not leave overnight. We have found a good church, in fact most of the people who go there used to go to our former church years ago. They have most the way healed and don't care to talk about things, so it is a comfort to me that I found a place where people can relate to what we went through. I still have a lot of healing to go through, but am so thankful for what the Lord has done and continues to do in my life, YET I still am not real trusting and keep an arms distance because of the hurt. and speaking of scapegoats, I felt I was the pastors. I was the one he ALWAYS had FUN with from the pulpit to the point I did not invite people to come to church with me as when they did he was embarrassing with his remarks from the pulpit to the point they would NOT come back. I would talk to him about that and he would just laugh.

JAM, It is obvious you love the Lord, but so do others on here and that is why people need to discuss things in order to heal. Healing does take time and with the Lord on our side, we can all do it. GOD BLESS YOUR DAY.

[Janice]

:( :confused:
Well Jam,
I am very new to this site and although what happened to me was about 5 months ago, its come to a head in recent weeks....
i would like to take this opportunity to thankyou for confirming what my old church leaders said...yes of course its all my fault and yes i dont want to lead a happy life and i want to be miserable in every relationship i have in the future and in any church i try...cos we all want abuse because its really nice......UH I THINK NOT!!! (can i emphasise the capitals any louder!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: )


Its people like you jam who prevent us from dealing with all our problems and hurt......is there something you get from seein other people unhappy, some high or something?!
I consider you and your views untrustworthy and hurtful and as bad as those people who abuse!
Leanne

Amen! Been hurt too many times so don't expect apologies from me. I don't trust.....PERIOD!
God..I REALLY need to stay away from this thread! Too many triggers!