View Full Version : "Pastor" is "Nervous:" My Christmas Gift
Hi, all,
If you've read my past posts under my previous thread, "Was this spiritual abuse?" and Truth's "Vindication," then you may recall that I had a Christian attorney friend of mine (a man who's taught Bible studies for 25 years or so as well) send a slander warning letter to the"pastor" who disfellowshipped me for no good reason. This letter was - and is - going to be my final salvo, my "kiss-off," so to speak, to "pastor." (The text of the slander warning letter is in the "Vindication" thread.)
Well, it's paying off. I found out today through a confidential source that since Dec. 10, the day he likely got the slander warning letter in the mail, he's making nervous phone calls to certain people and trying to find out "what they've heard" and whether I'm going to do anything else. Heh, heh!!! :D Apparently, so I've been told, he's like the proverbial "long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs."
I am so glad I had that letter sent! I praise the Lord that He has provided a legal system in this country that everyone can use to get things like this done. This fiend is finally realizing that he's going to ante up for what he's done, in one way or another!
Thanks for all of your support; I appreciate each and every one of you who's responded to or even read any of my posts. God bless you all.
mary
Meg Evenstar
12-24-2005, 01:35 PM
Mary, I'm so glad you wrote that letter too. Now this man will think twice before doing something like that again. :)
Meg
Jerry
12-24-2005, 03:10 PM
Oh Mary,,,,
You are such a "Devil" hahahahahahaha I love it !!!!!!! :D
Love Jerry
Carmen
12-24-2005, 03:42 PM
Go for it, Sister! :D I hope my current activity of getting material for a bible study will wake "my" pastor in question up and haunt him. I hope that some people start asking questions and "stumble" over my testimony about it on the net. One did not want to get involved, but I am almost sure that sometime, someone else will see the graveness of what happened, go to the pastor's church and take a look around, and do something about it.
Eleanor
12-24-2005, 04:15 PM
Carmen,
I just looked at your site. It wonderful! I think you have all the ingredients there for what is really happening in the world of religion now.Piece by piece.
I am so happy to see this site and I will refer others to it.
Love,
Eleanor
jjc9497
12-24-2005, 07:48 PM
Mary,
I've been a little on the down side today, and your post made my day. Thanks for putting a smile on my face and a Merry Christmas to you.
Janice
12-25-2005, 01:25 AM
Hi, all,
If you've read my past posts under my previous thread, "Was this spiritual abuse?" and Truth's "Vindication," then you may recall that I had a Christian attorney friend of mine (a man who's taught Bible studies for 25 years or so as well) send a slander warning letter to the"pastor" who disfellowshipped me for no good reason. This letter was - and is - going to be my final salvo, my "kiss-off," so to speak, to "pastor." (The text of the slander warning letter is in the "Vindication" thread.)
Well, it's paying off. I found out today through a confidential source that since Dec. 10, the day he likely got the slander warning letter in the mail, he's making nervous phone calls to certain people and trying to find out "what they've heard" and whether I'm going to do anything else. Heh, heh!!! :D Apparently, so I've been told, he's like the proverbial "long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs."
I am so glad I had that letter sent! I praise the Lord that He has provided a legal system in this country that everyone can use to get things like this done. This fiend is finally realizing that he's going to ante up for what he's done, in one way or another!
Thanks for all of your support; I appreciate each and every one of you who's responded to or even read any of my posts. God bless you all.
mary
WOOO HOOOOO! LOL..thanks for the laugh Mary! :D
Thanks, everybody!!!!
Jerry, I love your enthusiasm! Yes, "pastor" thought he had a big club to beat me with - but I have a bigger one! Now he has to be afraid of turning a corner and finding a process server there! I'm thrilled about this!! :D
Meg, thank you, too. I'm still doing a [subdued] victory dance....
Carmen, thanks for your encouragement... I still haven't been able to get to your site. Do you think you could just post the address again? I'd really, really appreciate that.
jjc and Janice, I'm glad I was able to brighten your respective days a little... Thanks so much for your responses!!
What a wonderful resource this board is!!!
Merry Christmas to everyone!!!
mary
butterfly
12-25-2005, 07:49 PM
Mary I am glad he read the letter. It shows him he can"t mess with you.
I think some pastors think they are safe in their churches and the law can"t touch them. I am glad it can. butterfly
truth
12-25-2005, 09:35 PM
Mary - you are bold and have courage and I'm proud of you --- the more I walk this walk the more I see how hard it is --- we are "shaking up" such a sacred cow in all of this --- and you really shook up a "cow" with your letter....
thanks for standing up and speaking the truth! (I love 'truth" that's why I used the name here --- my daughter's name means truth, too!) truth is always powerful.
Janice
12-26-2005, 03:10 AM
[QUOTE=truth]Mary - you are bold and have courage and I'm proud of you --- the more I walk this walk the more I see how hard it is --- we are "shaking up" such a sacred cow in all of this --- and you really shook up a "cow" with your letter....
(((((((truth)))))))) I think you hit the nail right on the head! ;)
Mary,
That's great! Put a smile on my face!!! I'm so glad that the letter got his attention!
Love, Gwen
Thanks so much, dear Truth, Janice, Butterfly, and everyone...
Now I'm chuckling when I think about what horrible sermons "pastor" must be preaching lately. He preached some pretty awful, Christless ones before - and my son and I used to challenge him in the narthex afterwards along the lines of "okay, where was Jesus in that?!" "Pastor" would reply, "Well, He was implied throughout and if you didn't get it, then that's your fault." Now, though, I'll bet he's preaching some real "uplifting" ones. :o If he's looking up the aisle for a county sheriff's deputy who might serve process on him at any time, he's probably preaching some real, inspirational stuff!!! :D
Part of the efficacy of that slander warning letter is that (1) "pastor" would be a darned fool to show it to either of his elders, or even to his wife, because then he'd have to explain what it's "all about," and he can't do that, and (2) he has no idea who in the congregation is still talking to me and/or what we're talking about. He has literally nowhere to go with his "angst." The mother of one of the elders is a close friend of mine and he knows that. (He tried to "pump" her on the phone last week.) She lives about 200 miles from here; we talk by phone frequently. He can do absolutely nothing about this - and it's driving him right up the wall. It's "checkmate" time - and the Lord - and truth, as you, Truth, say, win this round!
Bottom line: I'm not special - any of you can fight "pastors" like this. They're not "special;" they've just, maybe by operation of the Peter Principle or the "prince of the air" or God's taking His hand of blessing off of a particular congregation, wound up as "pastor" of some poor, hapless congregation. Maybe they're just plain con men. (Pardon a nod to the secular, but I can't help recalling that Jeff Healy recorded a song called "Confidence Man," some of the lyrics of which are, "I can talk old ladies out of all their money, I can talk young girls into calling me 'honey...' You can talk all you want, but I got fast hands..." That's what these dopes and jerks and jokes and thieves and perverts are, "confidence" men.) We can defeat them, because we have the truth on our side!!!!
Thanks once again and God bless all of you!
mary
Mary,
Your post reminded me of something I read awhile back on Steven Hassan's website: www.freedomofmind.com. I'm reprinting here for you to enjoy. It gave me a chuckle when I read it, though, unfortunately, it is true:
12 Rules Of The Community Leading Con-Man
By Peter Forde
1. What you've got is mine, and what I've got is mine too. (This is forcedly rule one because the world expects to see this, and is why they stay away in droves).
2. I own you too, and you don't own yourself, since you have vowed yourself into being my obedient serf. I will hold you to this even after you leave.
3. You're required to be meek and obedient, never angry, and constantly asking my permission to exist.
4. I can do anything I like, because I'm the leader- God's gift to Mankind. Undemocratic, Unimpeachable. The Holy Spirit representative (circle whichever applies, but note that "God's gift to mankind" is compulsory). For this heavy burden of leadership I, of course, have unlimited extra privileges and income.
5. The community actually exists for these purposes: Give me power over you: Make me lots of money: Make me powerful in the world: Flatter my vanity: Flatter my vanity again: Exist from moment to moment simply to pump up my ego.
6. One hint of criticism and you're out, and note rule #1. Your spouse, children and friends. (Community con men try to make suppression of criticism rule one, and stress it hard).
7. All critics of me are sinners and have gone the world's way. (It's a feature of all con men to preemptively accuse their marks of what they themselves are doing, as a way to confuse the opponent.)
8. Members are to confess their life's sins to me, preferably tape recorded, for use in shaming them into groveling subjection and for defamation and blackmail if they happen to leave and speak out.
9. Members are required to be dependent to the point of inability to cope if they should leave. This especially applies to children of members.
10. Priority of loyalties are: A) to me; B) to God, meaning me again since I am his representative C) to the community, meaning me again since the community exists to serve me D) to spouse and children but they are required to hate their relatives and spouses and to have a relationship with me before them.
11. Its fine to tell lies about who we are and what we actually represent. I wax lyrical about piety and morals since I don't have to actually practice what I preach - those rules are for YOU!
12. People who annihilate my enemies without blame falling on me are liable to get promoted and to share somewhat in my power, always of course being mindful of who is boss.
Thus are the commands of Jesus carried out, and the Kingdom of Heaven promoted.
10. Priority of loyalties are: A) to me; B) to God, meaning me again since I am his representative C) to the community, meaning me again since the community exists to serve me D) to spouse and children but they are required to hate their relatives and spouses and to have a relationship with me before them.
Gwen - wow. :o
The above "requirement" really hit me between the eyes because "pastor" was always telling me, "Don't spend time with your husband..." and "Don't go to a Christian marriage counselor - what good will that do?" Then, when I told him we were holding Bible studies in the evening, just the two of us, because we like to study the Bible together and it seemed as though we'd never have a Bible study at church, "pastor" got extremely upset and said, "Don't study the Bible with him! He's in a different spiritual universe than you are and you need to leave him alone!" I said, "What?! We're married, for crying out loud! Even if he were an unbeliever, which he's not, I'm staying with him!"
Thanks for this list - "pastor" makes the grade on virtually all of the points. I'm sure this will help a lot of the others on this board, too!
mary
ninaspirit
12-26-2005, 04:26 PM
for Mary.....
In my experience the pastoral counsellor who abused many women took my letter of complaint to his wife and co-workers to show them I was afraid he was hurting me. he broke the confidentiality rule to black mail me. He wrote the same in his notes regarding sessions. after all I had been abused so it was easy for him to say I was imagining things. some of his co-workers said the same to my face. he would sit in church, stare at my eyes and smile. while I cried. I left that church. It was the counsellor who invited me to attend the church - but I think my purpose for being there was from Someone else.
The senior pastor of the church was not fooled by the counsellor's actions and continued to keep contact with me and support me. As well as other co-workers of the pastoral counsellor. One woman offered her services as an advocate so other women who came forward and myself wouldn't have to deal with the perp and higher uppers on a personal level all the time. But my preference was for her to say just what I needed to say myself. If she didn't I was able to say those things at meetings. The senior pastor also had the task of attempting to bring truth out in the church and to keep it before this counsellor who continued to attend and he took that very seriously. People in different positions and myself made phone calls to offices, and wrote letters on behalf of myself and the women for the purpose of making the organization's board take action as well as the conference board and letting society know there was a jerk on the loose. All this led to three internal investigations - one at his place of work, and two through the church conference. Community churches support the place he worked at....in the end he was defrocked in the church and in the conference, lost his license to train pastors in the province. He lost his counselling job - about two years before retirement- no benefits for him.
One evening someone called to inform me that this counsellor had applied for a similar position at a hospital and would likely be hired the following day. I called one of his superiors whos number I was given by one of his coworkers. This superior was also a close friend of his. This friend denied he knew the man even though they had played golf together. I insisted again. The counsellor did not get the job :) and was furious with me about not getting the job so I know the contact had passed on the information. He blieved me. If the perp had been hired they wouldn't have been able to fire him because there were no charges against him.
This perp followed me out to the country one day - I was at my brother's home. He waited at the end of the driveway till I left. As I was leaving he moved ahead of me and drove as slowly as possible forcing me to drive about about 10 mph. I had my children in the car - about 3 and 5 years old. I asked them to lock their doors and continued driving behind him. We were close to town when he sped away - burnt some rubber. He hadn't been able to intimidate me. There were other times when he waited around town for me but I always saw past him. He didn't exist.
He lost his family whom he moved across the country in order to protect himself - they believed him right till he admitted. Several years after he moved away the senior pastor called to say I had received a letter from the counsellor. He read it to me on the phone. It stated I had spoken the truth and he had lied..... (That was the closure I needed) He told the senior pastor his decision to admit was not becuase of conviction by the Holy Spirit, rather he just had nothing more to lose. The law suits had probably cleaned him out. His wife left shortly after.
(I did call the police shortly after disclosing my experience, to see what my rights were - they said it would be in my best interest not to make an official statement as my privacy would be destroyed by the media. I still took my story to the media, keeping my name out of the paper because the counsellor had not officially been charged - that meant the paper couldn't use either of our names which enabled me to keep my privacy for the most part even though some people knew where the article originated and who the perp was - I received 2 threats at my door by 2 women - nothing more came of that)
The best policy to deal with jerks like this is to think with a business mind when approaching them and deal with the emotional part in safer arenas among friends. Be frank and serious about it only giving actual factual information eg. - specifically how he touched you, not how it made you feel. That way they can't run over your emotions as easily or disregard your allegations. If his behavior is not ethical in the work place it isn't ethical in the church either. Making a formal, written complaint to the board who is in control of the pastor's hiring or firing is important. Likely, the church board. You can write them personally because it is your experience. No one else has the right to say the pastor treated you a certain way unless they witnessed it. You are free to say what your experience has been with this pastor while others can state they believe you and openly show they are supporting you without accusing him.
e.g. "You abused/touched/hugged Mary...." is accusing him directly vs. "I believe Mary and have no reason to believe she was lying" is showing support to you and not directly accusing him. It also doesn't give him a reason to retaliate against the people who are supporting you.
If other's are communicating afidavits on your behalf it is a good idea to include a written copy of your experience signed and dated, stating what their position in the situation is eg. advocate, lawyer, friend etc. and how they are supporting you.
Now that the pastor has read your letter and has not taken appropriate action, I would encourage you to write the board a formal letter of complaint, including a copy of the letter sent to the pastor, showing what steps have already been taken and how the pastor has not attempted to acknowledge his behavior toward you re: the expectations put forth. Your letter might state you have a grievance towards the pastor and believe his job as pastor to yourself and the congregation has been tainted by his behaviors towards you. Give as close a description as possible of his behaviors and comments regarding your relationship with him and that about your husband, without including your emotional thoughts and feelings. Also include what events were happening at the time that gave reason for the pastor to have contact with you and let them know you are prepared to take legal action if the board's actions are not in line with a proper protocol. State what you believe that protocol should be. They may counter propose - you know the legal system. Then its up to you to decide if you accept or want to counter propose again. You don't have to accept their first proposal.
You might want to encourage your friend to make a separate formal written complaint as well. There is safety in numbers. but only if you feel she wouldn't fall under pressure to recant her experience and if she feels it would be helpful in her healing process.
........didn't know I could still do this. :)
If the church board does not respond appropriately you can take it further - to the conference board. and again include letters that have already been written and state what your grievance is with the church/pastor. Really, there is no limit to what you can do. The pastor would likely have to step down by this time because the whole ordeal might leak into the media and the church wouldn't want that kind of reputation if they're smart at all.
I threatened to press charges if the organization didn't have an investigation but it never came to that. Maybe I was just lucky. Didn't take no for an answer and no maybe yes, maybe no about it. I always asked when and how they would let me know what they decided and then continued to muddle through the next step. The pastoral counsellor didn't take action against me I believe because there were too many other women waiting to take a bite out of him. He wanted to stay out of the media. My main goal was to get him out of office so he wouldn't have access and the ability to abuse women any longer. Most women he counselled had already been violated sexually. Anyways these are the steps that were taken without any legal action on my part.
If I recall correctly, I asked to meet with the church members as part of my healing process. The church board instead asked to hold a special meeting with me where I could share my experience and have feed back from them for the purpose of healing. I agreed to meeting with them but... It was not a closure meeting - simply sharing - that was clarified. I asked again at that time to meet with the congregation to share some of my experience, what had been helpful in the process and what was not (the attempts at silencing - I remember feeling angry that a person with cancer could ask for prayer specifically for that but I had to ask behind closed doors), and how the experience had affected my life. The board hesitated saying that it might be more detrimental to myself because some were quite angry with me. There may have been some trying to protect the congregation from myself should I lash out at them. However the response was very supportive - some kept their comments among themselves so I heard later. The pastor had been careful to state what exactly the meeting was about and negative feedback at this meeting would not be allowed. He is a good egg. Hope he comes here and reads this.
Sorry this is so long Mary, but I hope this is helpful should you decide to take your experience any further. Best wishes. C......
hmmmm. :)
Jerry
12-26-2005, 04:35 PM
Gwen - wow. :o
The above "requirement" really hit me between the eyes because "pastor" was always telling me, "Don't spend time with your husband..." and "Don't go to a Christian marriage counselor - what good will that do?" Then, when I told him we were holding Bible studies in the evening, just the two of us, because we like to study the Bible together and it seemed as though we'd never have a Bible study at church, "pastor" got extremely upset and said, "Don't study the Bible with him! He's in a different spiritual universe than you are and you need to leave him alone!" I said, "What?! We're married, for crying out loud! Even if he were an unbeliever, which he's not, I'm staying with him!"
Thanks for this list - "pastor" makes the grade on virtually all of the points. I'm sure this will help a lot of the others on this board, too!
mary
Dear Mary,,,
This Pastor is an idiot....He is quoting the mistranslation found in Luke 14 vs 26.The "Hebrew" word in this verse rendered "hate" means "LOVE LESS" The implication is that Spiritually we put God first .....In other words ,,,,Love God as if He is part of our Family.It is a Hebrew idium illustrating devotion to God.It does not mean to neglect your family.Tell that idiot to shut his yap when he doesn't know what he is talking about :mad:
Love Jerry
Thanks, Jerry - well, I can't say anything to the jerk anymore because of the slander warning letter. The fiend just needs to quit defiling that pulpit and get the heck out of there!
Ninaspirit, oh, please don't apologize for the length of your post! Everything you said is very valuable to me!!! When the perp followed you with your small children in the car, he stalked you and this was an assault. A temporary restraining order against him would have been in order (or whatever they call it where you live). The women who came to your door also would have merited a TRO. I was very much cheered to read what you were able to get done. What bravery and tenacity you showed! Thank you so much for your wise advice.
The slander warning letter and the euphoria I felt after I heard that it was upsetting the daylights out of "pastor" is starting to wear off and I am wondering what I can do next. I'm left with, okay, he's upset and worried, but there's still a congregation that's unknowingly sitting under the preaching of one of Satan's own. I know it and they don't. The problem is that this is a denomination whose leadership is in a foreign country. Our former congregation is considered a "mission outpost" of this denomination. There is no board or accountability or oversight recourse or anything in this country. There's nothing here except for the two elders, who are about as effective as my cats would be if they held the same office. I did call and write a colleague of "pastor's" in, shall we say, our "neighbor to the north;" I'd considered this man a friend and our alternate pastor. My husband and I had been entertained in his home when we visited there. However, he apparently sold me out.
My former "pastor" has no oversight at all except for where he came from, which I will just say is in the U. K. Even then, the problem is that he is considered to be one of the "leading lights" of the denomination (I know: it's a mess). In mid-October, I did call over there to a minister whom I know to be one of "pastor's" adversaries. We talked for about 8 minutes; cost me $20, but it was worth it. This minister told me that my husband and I needed "to leave that church immediately and find another one where the Gospel is preached and Jesus Christ is exalted," because he knew that "pastor" wasn't doing either. I do have names and addresses of a number of ministers in this denomination in "said foreign country," and I could send a flock of letters to them and make a huge stink over there if I wanted to, I suppose. My general experience with these people, however, is that they are barbarians. They have barely disguised but palpable contempt for Americans. Since "pastor" told me on more than one occasion that he "outweighs me by more than 60 pounds and can take (me) down," yes, I am afraid of him and of these people in general. In September, I was diagnosed with a pre-leukemia (long story; I used to have aplastic anemia and had a course of chemotherapy for it; now I have this problem going on) and I can't afford to get much more upset, despite my vow to keep fighting. The irony of this is that it was my request for prayer after the diagnosis in September that led to "pastor's" telling me no, he would not speak with me or pray with me and that I was "beyond (his) forgiveness and reconciliation" for my prior defense of my husband to him. Whatever.
Everyone keeps telling me to "leave it alone now" and "let the Lord deal with him." Is there some point at which one can actually do that? I haven't gotten there yet, but then, it's only been two months. I'm so glad I found this forum! I would have been up a creek without it. No one else understands; you can't understand unless you've been through this kind of garbage. I'm used to dealing with people in the legal field and this is the kind of thing you sometimes meet with in badly-run law firms or with "nutcase" judges, magistrates or whatever. My shock is in finding it in the church but then, anything that you find in the world, you can find in the church. This is my first experience with this in the many years that it's been since I left the Catholic Church.
Just muddling along... Have gotten a great deal out of Carmen's website today and boy, do I appreciate hearing from you and everyone else as well, Ninas!
Cheerily in our Lord Jesus Christ,
mary
Willow
12-26-2005, 07:47 PM
Wow Mary!!! I'm happy for you! This must feel a bit like vindication... or at least closure.
I never had that with the worst of the abusers. The pedophile and the cult leader both got off scott free. It never dawned on me that I was abused or had a voice in the matter. It never dawned on me that what they did was illegal and the could be prosecuted for it! good on you! You are a strong lady!!!
Jerry
12-27-2005, 05:02 AM
Dear Mary,,,
This Pastor is an idiot....He is quoting the mistranslation found in Luke 14 vs 26.The "Hebrew" word in this verse rendered "hate" means "LOVE LESS" The implication is that Spiritually we put God first .....In other words ,,,,Love God as if He is part of our Family.It is a Hebrew idium illustrating devotion to God.It does not mean to neglect your family.Tell that idiot to shut his yap when he doesn't know what he is talking about :mad:
Love Jerry
Minor Correction,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The text being discussed (Luke 14 vs 26) is Greek not Hebrew;However the verse does reflect a Hebrew idium so the balance of the post is correct,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sorry Guys :o
Love Jerry
Jerry
12-27-2005, 06:52 AM
Dear Mary,,,
We are so proud of what you have done.You accomplished your stated objective.A good soldier obtains "Recon" ,formulates a plan of action, and procedes based on said plan. A good soldier knows when the objective is accomplished to break off the enguagement.Only a fool procedes beyond what he is capable of at a given point.It is not cowardice to stop and rethink the situation,,,,,,,,,,,You got to know when to holdem,,,,Know when to foldem,,,,Know when to walk away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D You know the rest sweetie ;)
Love Jerry
Thanks so much, Willow... Maybe not so strong, though; I've wavered a little under the weight of the recent loss of some support I thought I had. I crowed a bit too soon, I'm afraid.
I'm going to sit back for awhile and pay a lot of attention, take notes, etc., from all of you who are more experienced than I in dealing with spiritual abuse. I swaggered in and did something I was comfortable with, i.e., the slander warning letter, because that's the kind of thing I'm familiar with "on the job." Now, though, I feel like the "cowardly lion." I need to learn from the rest of you - big-time!
Thanks again, everyone.
mary
butterfly
12-27-2005, 08:38 PM
[[[[Mary]]]] I hope you don"t mind the hug. I am proud of you. You knew where to get him and you did what you needed to do with the letter.
I am sorry about the support. There was a time I thought I had support from some at church. Well they changed there mines.
When people didn"t support me the rejection realy hurt bad.
I still think you did a good job. You didn"t think he would read the letter and he did! The letter hit him good and affected him. So you sent the arrow and it did hit the target.:D
Trusting people at this time can be tricky. Cause you never know who is friend or foe. butterfly
Thanks, Butterfly, for the hug! :) Consider yourself hugged back!!! Thanks also for your comments!
Well, just this morning I've done something else that could have major results, the kind I really want. As a legal professional - and using my "legal professional voice" - I called the U. S. Citizenship & Immigration Services' Deportation and Illegal Activities Department and reported "pastor's" fraudulent conversion activities (I mentioned this in a prior post, but I didn't have many details; now I do) that involve a church member on the other side of the state. Quite a bit of money is involved. Basically, this "looks" and "quacks" like sheer and prima facie embezzlement. It was solicited over the phone and the act was completed using the U. S. mail, so mail fraud may also be involved. I was also advised that the FBI might be interested in this.
Anyway, the deportation and illegal activities technician I talked to asked me for "pastor's" name, address, phone number and date and place of birth, all of which I could provide. He asked for the name of the church as well. He also asked for "pastor's" SSN; I've seen it on certain records, but I purposely avoided memorizing it for ethical reasons. It didn't matter, though, that I didn't have that. The technician also asked for the name of the person from whom the money was embezzled, so I gave him that, too, but not the victim's address or phone number, because she's quite ill now and wouldn't want to participate in this investigation, although she is hopping mad over what happened to her money.
Bottom line: "pastor" is going to be investigated by this federal department, which is part of Homeland Security!!! :D :D :D I did find out that while his citizenship cannot be revoked, he can be charged with any crimes he may have committed even before becoming a U. S. citizen last year as well as after. I was allowed to remain anonymous except for my first name; as a phone contact, I gave them my cell phone number which has a different area code than the one I actually live in.
He is not going to get away with any of this!!!
mary
Willow
12-28-2005, 09:47 AM
Wow Mary... All I can say is WOW!!! I sure wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of you!!! You kick hard! HAHA... Good job!!!!!!!!!!
Joseph
12-28-2005, 04:00 PM
Your something else mary!!! I'm inspired by your progress. It's great to see someone have some success legally.
I'm stayin tuned,
Joe
truth
12-28-2005, 04:56 PM
Wow, you go...!
Willow
12-28-2005, 06:17 PM
Your something else mary!!! I'm inspired by your progress. It's great to see someone have some success legally.
I'm stayin tuned,
Joe
Joe, maybe you can take notes and follow suit with your crook... err... I mean pastor.
Thanks, Joe, Truth, everyone...
The illegal activities technician I spoke with this morning suggested I might also look into reporting "pastor's" conduct to the county prosecutor's "elder abuse" investigation office. This is a large county and I'll bet we have one... No one should be able to fleece old people like this, and I have suspicions that he has two more "marks" right now. I can't do anything about what he did to me personally, but I can sic the feds on him for the embezzlement that there's overwhelming evidence he committed. We'll see what happens. :)
Joe, Willow mentioned that you might have cause to go after your own PiP ("pig in the pulpit;" that's what my husband calls our former "pastor") in a similar manner???
mary
Hi Mary,
I've been reading through your thread! All I can say is WOW!!! I'm impressed!!! You give me some hope that maybe there are some things that we can do legally regarding the activities of our former "pastor" PiP!!!
Glad to hear that you're making some headway in the situation!
Love, Gwen
jjc9497
12-28-2005, 10:04 PM
I LOVE the PiP:D :D :D :D :D :D Maybe even better than pasturd. :rolleyes:
I wish I had your guts. You go girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Janice
12-29-2005, 02:50 AM
Go Mary, Go! keep us posted PLEASE!! ;)
Willow, Gwen, jjc, Janice, everyone,
Thank you so much! :) I do hope that you all know that you're a great part of the impetus and the inspiration for what I'm doing. You've all encouraged me more than you know! And yes, Gwen, you, too, can do exactly what needs to be done, the same as I'm doing. Legally...[/I]
Today I'm thinking about the FBI and the "elder abuse" recourse that the Deportations, etc. Dept. guy advised me about yesterday. Those both sound like fun to me. :D Mail fraud is a serious crime in and of itself. I am also thinking about the IRS. One of my former tax law professors used to be a IRS auditor. I'm thinking about calling him and seeing what it would take to get the PiP audited... I can imagine that there just might have been some tax evasion here. If you rob a bank, for example, your "gains" are taxable as ordinary income, I believe - until you get caught. Then you're expected to make restitution, but - assuming you paid taxes on them - you don't get a tax refund. ;) My former "pastor" should be audited, I think...!
The technician with whom I spoke yesterday told me that eventually, "pastor" will learn that he's being investigated by the U. S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, and why. (There should be an icon here to indicate that someone is [I]dancing, because I AM!) How I wish I could be parked across the street with a telephoto lens on my camera to catch the expression on his face if/when the feds arrive on his doorstep! My husband, who's a former federal agent himself, told me that the PiP could have a problem the next time he even tries to cross into Canada, which happens frequently because we have a sister church just across the border... Since the current investigation is all being done under the auspices of Homeland Security, he might be detained at customs when he tries to enter Canada or he could be red-flagged or something. Heh, heh!
Once again, I thank each and every one of you for your encouragement. I pray that for each of you, if you can possibly get something like this done to your own respective PiP, you pursue it and pursue it without fear. Always remember that you have the Lord's love, and 1 John 4:18 is for you. Proverbs 26:24-27, too. All of your PiPs have dug pits, and those pits are for them to fall into (Prov. 26:27). All you need to do is to give them a little push! :cool:
If I can make any particular suggestions to any of you, please just let me know and feel free to send a private message, if you want to.
Love to all,
mary
Carmen
12-29-2005, 06:33 AM
Ha, Ha, Mary! That pasturd should never have messed with you! :D I admire your courage for getting the ball rolling. Just don't expect the roses to come flying from all directions. From me: ROSES, ROSES AND MORE ROSES!
You asked for my site address, I think. Here is the SA page (I have to update it but hardly have any computer time when Hubby is home) - you can go to other pages from there. http://www.jamesfive19.com/Spiritual_Abuse_Links_Resources.html
Jerry
12-29-2005, 07:18 AM
I haven't checked this thread in a couple of days,,,,,,,WOW Mary !!!! You are "Brutal",,,,hahahahahaha I Love it !!!! :D
Love Jerry
Stuff is happening now...:)
After months of utter silence on all of "pastor's" abuse, both of a couple of other members and of me, the member who was fleeced of $KKKKK has decided that she now needs to speak with one of the elders about it. She has known this elder for many years and considers him a friend, although she lives on the other side of the state. She asked me if she may also tell him of "pastor's" abuse of me, both the harassment - which was more than just that hug; it was a pattern of things said and done over the course of almost 3 years - and the unilateral excommunication of me. I told her to go for it; I don't care. Let it fly... :o
Also, another member called me last night... She and her family (9 people in the main; more with extended family, in-laws, grandchildren) are wondering what happened. My friend of whom I spoke in earlier posts did leave permanently; she turned in her key a couple of days ago. This other member is demanding to know "what happened to all of you," meaning my family and my friend. I told her that I would not tell her over the phone last night. Instead, I suggested that we both pray over it for a few days and see how the Lord leads. If I tell her anything, I will only relate my own story. I will allow the other member's problem to unfold on its own (hers, I concede, involves a federal crime, while mine - one of having been assaulted - is a state crime, to say nothing of the emotional and spiritual damage done to both of us). My preference would be to meet this other member, to whom I'd always been close, in a restaurant for lunch and speak with her there. She comes from another country (not the U.K., which is where the "baddies" in this congregation are from) and unless she and I are talking face-to-face, we have a bit of a language and comprehension problem. I definitely do not believe this person to be a "tool" of the PiP's. The timing of her request suggests to me that she just really wants to know. I asked her if she were open to hearing some things about "pastor's" character that she may not have suspected; her reply was along the lines of, "if there's something there that I should know that affects whether my husband and I and our family should be attending there, then I want to know." (That wasn't verbatim; she speaks, shall we say, very broken, troublesome English, but that was the idea she conveyed to me. She is a very bright woman with a master's in math, but...) I also guaranteed her that whatever I tell her, if anything at all, she may tell her husband.
I'm inclined to do this. At the same time, I'm bracing for what could hit the fan this week as a result of the other "fleeced" member's disclosure to the elder.
Prayers would definitely be appreciated, if you think of it... Thank you so much!!!! :)
mary
Jerry
01-02-2006, 12:12 PM
Dear Mary,,,,,
I am so proud of what you are doing :D :D :D Just remember this,,,,as these exchanges intenseify,,,,,,,,one who you consider a trusted friend will come to you with an offer of Peace,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this one is your ENEMY ;)
Love Jerry
jjc9497
01-02-2006, 02:35 PM
I agree with Jerry. Be VERY careful who you say things to--although why I'm, telling YOU this I don't know. You certainly have a very good head on your shoulders. Besides the possiblity the PiP may try to turn around and file a slander suit against you---(you know, animals backed into a corner attack), your friend my not have the guts you have to stick it out when the s*** hits the fan. You know the legal issues way better than me, I just don't want you to get hurt either by the PiP or a friend who you trust that may not in the end be able to stand with you.
I am SO PROUD OR YOU and I wish I had your guts. Unfortunately, everything my pasturd did would end up being my word against his. The only other people who know the truth would support him, because he is protecting them. However, I am vicariously enjoying your pursuit of justice. :D :D :D :D
Well, I've been thinking... Maybe the PiP did put her up to this. Maybe she's not ready to hear what I'd tell her and she'd turn on me and rip me to shreds. She is still under the impression that she hears "great sermons" from the PiP. (But he almost never mentions Jesus Christ. What's great about that? - I asked her. She had no reply.)
I suppose the PiP could still file a slander suit against me for talking to the one who got fleeced. Everything I said to her was the truth, though, and that's an absolute defense, but I'd still have the cost of defending myself. (Slander is generally not something that's covered under your homeowner's insurance policy... :rolleyes: )
Still, the PiP has recently been put under federal investigation with regard to the embezzlement and mail fraud tips I gave the deportation and illegal activities folks last week. Maybe that'll pan out and that'll turn out to be my best shot at him. At least that's what my husband says.
I flat-out don't know how some of you do it, being treated the way I was, and many of you much worse, and not striking back. You must have extraordinary characters and backbones and the Lord has given you the grace to bear up. That means, obviously, He will continue to give you grace. I just feel driven to hit this guy back. Maybe I've been in the legal field too long, where there's always a response to a "hit." Somebody always pays. ;) Same here: somebody's gonna to pay, and it ain't gonna be me. I just don't have it "in me" to take it...
Thanks, everyone!
mary
Carmen
01-03-2006, 01:08 AM
Hi Mary,
I second Jerry and jjc. Sick 'em! Just be careful where you bite and how hard. Will be keeping you in my prayers.
Carmen
Janice
01-03-2006, 03:32 AM
I flat-out don't know how some of you do it, being treated the way I was, and many of you much worse, and not striking back. You must have extraordinary characters and backbones and the Lord has given you the grace to bear up. That means, obviously, He will continue to give you grace. I just feel driven to hit this guy back. Maybe I've been in the legal field too long, where there's always a response to a "hit." Somebody always pays. ;) Same here: somebody's gonna to pay, and it ain't gonna be me. I just don't have it "in me" to take it...
I'm sure part of it is grace. I HAVE "struck back" as you say but, to no avail and to be perfectly honest, I am just plain TIRED OF TRYING.
Joseph
01-03-2006, 04:33 AM
I'm behind you 100% Mary, But I agree with Jerry & JJC. I wouldn't trust anyone who is still attending that church. People who contact me from my old church want to know what's going on too, until they hear it, then they mentally shut me down. When I sometimes get outspoken of my former church, All of a sudden, I get phone calls from people I haven't heard from in a year, because "I've been on their heart and they are so concerned about me", whatever. They are taking my temperature, so to speak, to find out where my head is at, you know, to "protect the pastor at all costs".
These people are brainwashed that this guy is allright, the things that you talk about with your church can be seen by all who attend, but many choose to look the other way.
The risk to you and your family is too great to involve people that are on the inside.
The objective here is to expose him, although you would like to get him for everything, the sexual harassment might be hard to prove (look what rape victims go through),
but the investigations that look into his financial dealings looks promising.
Remember, they took AL Capone down with tax evasion, not murder.
You sound more prepared for this than I was, I simply don't have enough hard evidence against my pastor to build a case against him that will stick. It's very frustrating but I understand what Janice is saying, you do get tired of trying, and holding the anger and frustration.
I'm not trying to discourage you, all I am saying is to be weary of anyone suddenly wanting to rekindle a relationship and reach out to you, that pastor might have alot more influence than first perceived.
Good luck Mary,
Joe
Janice
01-04-2006, 02:08 AM
Because I am so "tired of trying", one of my goals for this year is NO CHURCH PERIOD!
Part of me feels EXTREMELY GUILTY because I am not going. Hubby still has another full year as a deacon and I sort of feel like I'm being un-supportive for not going.
But, like I said, I am tired! So tired of feeling worse coming out of church then I did going in. I've built up so much anger, bitterness, and resentment that I just cannot "receive" anymore.
My "walls" are up even before I get to the parking lot!
So, I have my daily time with God. Still praising, still praying. Just not doing it in church.
LOL...I know pastor is dying to know what's "up" with me but he's too scared to ask me!
Joseph
01-04-2006, 04:39 AM
Janice,
I feel the same way, I get to the point where I'm almost seeing progress in my healing and somebody opens their mouth, and bam!, I'm back where I started.
I think the only way is to totally disconnect until you can recoup, everyone around you is going to have to understand and give you some space or it's never going to heal and you will just push them away farther.
I have found good progress since I've conveyed to everyone around me to get off my back and mind your own business.
It's so hard to get it off your mind and find some peace.
Joe
Janice and Joe, I will continue to keep you in prayer... Now I know specifically what to pray for with regard to each of you. You each need a lot of TLC right now! You are being lifted up in prayer even as I type this. :)
In our case, after I was thrown out on Oct. 18, my husband, son and I considered Hebrews 10:24-25, among other verses, and decided to plunge back in and wipe the taste of that miserable cult right out of our mouths. Perhaps a little different from your respective situations, though, we were aware of and had contacts at a couple of undeniably healthy churches that we'd attended in the past, where we knew we'd be accepted and people would welcome us. We hadn't joined them before because of some doctrinal differences, but at least, we knew that these churches (1) preach the Gospel; and (2) exalt Jesus Christ in their worship. Our old cult did neither.
In recent weeks, I've been harboring an absolutely white-hot hatred for clergymen. After having been subjected to 4th-degree criminal sexual conduct by that PiP, I really despised them and I didn't even want to shake hands with any of them. :mad: But my husband dragged me to a party at our Messianic Jewish associate pastor's home last Saturday night. This pastor left for 10 days in Israel yesterday. As we were leaving the party, I told this pastor that I would pray for him while he was in Israel, and he reached over and gave me a nice, brotherly,, "A-frame" hug (he does know my whole story). I thought, well, that was nice! Now I can say that the last hug that I got from a clergyman was not that "Last Tango in Paris," indecent grab that "pastor" had given me a few months ago; it was instead a nice, chaste, brotherly hug from a clergyman whom I know genuinely just likes me. I am so glad that we have people like this to have Christian fellowship with! It puts the a******* further in our rearview mirror and lets the Lord's grace and mercy back into our lives...
The Lord will seek you out and deliver you, Janice and Joe; He promises, in His timing, that He'll consume the false shepherds and gather you. (Ezekiel 34:11-16.) I am so grateful for those promises, not just on my behalf but on yours and on behalf of everyone else in this forum. He is able, and He is faithful and true... :D
In His love to all,
mary
Yesterday I had a conversation with a person who's still in that church from which I was recently disfellowshipped. She had wanted to know last week "what happened to all of you - why did you leave?" (She meant our family and another person.) I told her that if she really wanted to know, she had to be prepared to hear some things about "pastor's" character that she didn't expect to hear. (To sum up: for over 2 years, "pastor" had been angling for a "relationship" with me and did some things to make that crystal clear, including a move in front of my husband that would have constituted 4th degree CSC in this state had I decided to file a complaint. When my husband told him off, in private, he got very nasty. When I objected to the way he talked to my husband, also in private, he threw me out of the church.) Anyway, yesterday, this person told me that she does not want to hear anything about "pastor," ever. Fine. I felt like saying, okay, just drink the Kool-Aid, then, and you'll be in "a good place spiritually." :mad: I did tell her that I wanted her to know that I "did not have a normal, pastor-congregant relationship" with "pastor." She said, "I don't want to hear anything more from you. I should ask 'pastor' or the elders about this." I told her that the elders know nothing about it, and "pastor" won't tell her the truth because he CAN'T. She seemed very upset by that and I have no intention of talking to her or anyone in her family again.
I go to other "churches" around here where I hear God's word diminished, Jesus's deity questioned, a general declension of what pure, clear Bible teaching is - and a whole lot of garbage. There are apparently no decent churches in this area. I am so sick of the claptrap and outright blasphemy that reigns supreme in "churches" today. I want my former "pastor" out and I want that stupid, evil, little cult to fold. The whole denomination is corrupt, both here and in the U.K. I can't even e-mail or write anyone in the U.K. regarding this matter because they'd only laugh at me. "Pastor" is one of their "shining lights," you see. In fact, though, he has so much leaven - in my opinion, concentrated in his tush! - that he can hardly move - therefore, they're very happy with him. Whatever.
Thanks just for reading this vent. My only wish is to find a decent church!!!! Things just get worse and worse and more hopeless-looking as to that particular venture...
mary
jjc9497
01-08-2006, 02:26 PM
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]LOL...I know pastor is dying to know what's "up" with me but he's too scared to ask me!
If "pastor" tries to find out what's up with you, you could just tell him you are madly in love with him and are staying away to maintain your purity with your husband. Bet he'd leave you alone and keep his mouth shut!!:eek: :D :eek:
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