Purpose Driven Movement [Archive] - Christian Recovery Forums

Meg Evenstar

12-16-2005, 01:07 PM

jane

12-16-2005, 02:57 PM

Unfortunate but true. In the state of Alabama, you cannot home school unless you are "covered" by an overarching organization, most often a church. There are some out there that are less religiously binding - at least according to the information on the Internest - but the religious affiliation isn't the point. There is certain documentation, including attendance and testing, that must be administered through the "cover" to be valid. *shrug* Who knows what brain-dead state legislature chose to do it this way at some point in the past. All I know is Alabama ought to re-think their homeschooling law and make it more like those in other states. Just my opinion, of course.

Oh I totally agree with you. I am sitting here writing first semester evaluations for my three sons today and I'm thinking this is a bunch of hewie. Next year I will pick a covering that is not so strict. I am always faced with you will do as ''we'' say or we will expel you and they will too.Some of the stuff I would do anyway such as keep a lesson plan and choose structured lessons, but they basically tell you what you have to teach and some tell you how it is you are to raise your kids. Two out of the four I have been with have done that. What I am objecting to today is having to write a detailed report of what chapters and how many tests we have completed in each subject. My best friend has taught English in Alabama and she says she never had to do half of the stuff we are required to do. She home schools in Texas now and tells me it is so much better than being in Alabama.

It was a blessing that I was not accepted in the other group two years ago. I have since learned they are the most oppressive of all that are around here. They also control when you can go out during the day and what curriculum you can use. It has to be ''approved'' by them. I don't know what it is with church folks, but they are very much into control and power.

Meg

This CAN'T be constitutional???????????????????????????????????? ????

Education is a privilege, NOT A RIGHT? People under 18 in our country don't have rights!!!! That is why the child welfare system had such a freaking hard time protecting children and why they had to enter through the backdoor by charging the first abusive father with cruelty to animal rights- that is how they got established that humans are animals and so on..........

HOW CAN A GOVERNMENT mandate that RELIGION CONTROLS YOU in homeschooling?

We must have really good laws here because people homeschool for MANY reasons not just religious....and while the school system PREFERS that you show them a portfolio of the work you do, it is NOT required......

I remember being worried because a family who was being homeschooled- to me they were isolating their children, not taking them to the doctors, dentist, making the girls cover their heads and wearing clothes that covered their entire bodies- I remember being worried but being told by professionals that it is those PARENTS rights to raise them the way that they want to......

I am sorry, this is triggering me.

THE DAY A STATE MANDATES THAT I ANSWERE TO A CHURCH!!!!!

Someone needs to take that law to the supreme court.

I am off my soapbox.
jane

Meg Evenstar

12-16-2005, 03:21 PM

I never thought of it that way, but you are correct. In Alabama you have to be under a church in order to home school. Fortunately there are some liberal churches that will cover non-christians and technically, a Hindo temple or Muslum Mosque would also function as a covering if they chose to do so, but yes, it does have to be some form of church and most of them are very strict. They can also charge you a lot of money for service they require you to accept. Most of the church coverings here I can not afford even if I wanted to be with them. So far the few that I can afford have been very restrictive of us.

Believe it or not the family you described is very normal amoung home schoolers here. Those are the kind of things I resist. They have a funny view of Godlyness. Long dresses, head coverings, simple style of dress and living, no TV, no secular anything. I have no problems with that sort of thing until you try to make me live that way. Now I don't mean to imply that most are like that, but many are. What the coverings here want to control is what you teach, when you teach it, how you dress, what your kids wear and what kind of music you listen to. In other words they want you to have Godly character. We just disagree as to what that is. In my opinion they are looking on the outward appearences instead of what is in a person's heart. When I went along with the crowd I was excepted. When I decided to think for myself and started questioning things, that's when the trouble started.

Someone should challenge this in court.:mad:

Meg

Eleanor

12-16-2005, 05:07 PM

www.despatch.cth.com.au/Mini/minidespatchJune302001/htm

Sorry I don't know how to make that a link. If I have copied that out wrong there are other sites which outline concerns regarding the PDC movement, which, on the surface sounds good, looks good etc.

Two men named Gotcher and Klenck have studied this and are cited in the article I linked. What they say sounds a bit sensational-some of it even strange- but even casual observers begin to realize that the PDC principles are built around marketting, psychology, and business principles- market what people WANT and rake in the money. Most PDC soon have LOTS of money, new buildings and don't 'offend' much of anybody, and lots of people come to church because it makes them feel so good about themselves.

(As 501c3 corporations- and most churches are now- they cannot include any political positions in their sermons and have several other limitations.I would be very interested in knowing if there are write-offs for employees in these tax exmept orgs and who gets them and for what.

Regarding 501c3's it looks like the gov't expects these orgs. to 'supplement' the gov't when it comes to help such as was needed after Katrina. Faith-based orgs.State churches? Hmm could be a good thing.... but who do they answer to, the state, or God?)

re PDC:I know that getting in alot of people seems like a good idea if there is a chance they will be drawn to God, but Jesus already said that believers will not be loved in this world BY the world.Believers will not EVER be popular or cool.I think there was a good spiritual reason for that.In addition there is the principle of UNITY at any cost.
Interesting reading.

Eleanor

Meg Evenstar

12-16-2005, 05:48 PM

Eleanor, I couldn't access the link but what you had to say sounds like what I was feeling. The things that bothered me about what little I read of the book were that you were to give your whole life to the church in service and money. I have been there and done that and live with the results of it today. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want church programs and ministries. I want a little fellowship, sound teaching and to worship. I want it simple. I know I am tired and getting older, but the modern church expects you to work yourself to death for them so that your church can look good and attract more people to it. I'm just not willing or able to do that anymore.

Meg

ETA: I also remember the last year I let my children attend Vacation Bible School. They were young and absolutely loved it so we would go to all of the VBS programs in our area until I over heard some ladies talking about how shameful it was for these mothers to drop their kids off for someone else to entertain. My two oldest (12 and 10) heard it too. They didn't even finish the week out. They were so hurt and felt rejected. We learned that year that programs come with a price.

mary

12-16-2005, 07:37 PM

ETA: I also remember the last year I let my children attend Vacation Bible School. They were young and absolutely loved it so we would go to all of the VBS programs in our area until I over heard some ladies talking about how shameful it was for these mothers to drop their kids off for someone else to entertain. My two oldest (12 and 10) heard it too. They didn't even finish the week out. They were so hurt and felt rejected. We learned that year that programs come with a price.

Meg -- I hardly know where to begin... Where is the Christianity in that??? :mad: Newsflash to these women: it is a privilege to serve little ones in VBS. The Lord doesn't give that privilege to everyone or to just anyone. I would hope that He would remove it immediately from "ladies" like that.
"Millstones" around their necks would be too good for them.

mary

Meg Evenstar

12-17-2005, 06:14 AM

Hi Meg,

I don't have much on my site except other people's links: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Rick_Warren_Purpose_Driven.html

I have read PDC and am preparing a review about it and Warren's doctrine, but am stuck in another article and am procrastinating....Am celebrating my son's birthday tomorrow - late. Still have Christmas to go through, Hubby is taking off work earlier than I thought and wants to use the computer to finish a paper while he is home. Ugh! Posting will be only very sporadic during the holidays even though I will be home. Must print the research material out, pages and pages of it.
Hope to have everything finished by the end of January. If you have any specific questions I may be able to answer them.

Carmen

Thanks, Carmen. This is what I am looking for and it confirms what I was feeling when I read the book.

Meg

Eleanor

12-17-2005, 08:00 AM

Here is another link regarding PDC concerns; I hope it is correct this time:

www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html

It is said some of the foundations of the PDC are much like those of Outcome Based Education.

I had a BIG problem when my daughter was in elementary school with her school's curriculum. Undiscussed with the parents beforehand, the children were being taught to read and write using the Whole Language, also called Whole Word, and Global Learning curriculum. In this program the children are not taught the fundamentals of reading and writing by way of phonics, which gives them the building blocks to construct new words all by them selves eventually.

For instance for the word 'house': the kids in the first grade were taught to say 'house', draw 'house' talk about 'house' ...Ok, no problem with that. However then they were taught- not to learn how the word was spelled - but to spell it the way it sounded. For most this was "Has', or 'Hus'.

My daughter already knew the correct spelling and I am sure many of the kids in the class also did. When she tried to spell it the correct way, the teacher stopped her and she was made to spell it the way it sounded;essentially UN-learning the correct way; learning the incorrect way to satisfy the curriculum, only to later have to re-learn the correct spelling later. In my view, ridiculous.

Then they were taught to memorize rather long rather difficult words for spelling tests, instead of learning small words using phonetic building blocks. Things like 'hippopotamus'(sp..lol), 'rhinocerous'...ridiculously long and confusing words that -yes, could be memorized, but were too advanced for the kids to really understand the word construct.

Well the parents were SO impressed at the great job the school was doing. WOW, and all that homework. Sometime by the second grade they had an hour or so of homework. All the parents thought the school was making geniuses of their kids, I guess , but by the third grade, at least one-third of the kids in that grade were going to places like Sylvan becuase they had Reading comprehension problems- and spelling problems.The reading problems caused other problems of course in other subjects.

The school never admitted their curriculum was inefficient; after all the public schools were using it. They also never addressed the fact that so many of the kids had to be remediated- because of the poor curriculum. This was a Christian school and I suppose everyone was playing the Emperor's Clothes game.IE;: If no one admits a problem then there IS no problem.

Apparently some people think the PDC program is much the same.

Take church building, church leaders, congregation, and add the PDC program. (unfortunately this is happening against the wishes of some established members of some churches; they are basically being 'run' out of the church for disagreeing)

Invite as much of the 'unchurched' community as possible. Get people to tell what they want from church, and give it to them.

Send them thru a copyrighted program for new members to learn about church structure as they join: (in many churches its the S.H.A.P.E. program (classes 101, 102, 103, or some version of that. I went to a church for awhile where the SHAPE classes were 101, 201, 301, 401...)

Run them through another copyrighted program so they can 'discern' their 'spiritual gifts'.(I have seen this advertised on a church website here in my town. The ad was in neon colors and was blinking off and on, like a doughnut sign). Slot them in the places you need them;put them to work, and then have them self-inventory how they used their spiritual gifts each week.If they have financial, marital, divorce, recovery, and parenting problems there are classes and programs for all of these areas. If there are spiritual problems run them thru Cleansing Stream to sanitze them...

Voila: churn out mature Christians!!

Above all make sure there is no dissent; have small classes with group leaders who get to know each person in their group really well, practice diapraxis with them(no one's right, no one's wrong...); . The biggest sin is disagreeing with the church leaders over anything.Unity Unity unity. More homogenized than milk.Outcome Based religion?

Like the school situation, everyone has to get with the program regardless of their true level of learning.

Hey! Who needs that inconvenient, stuffy and old fashioned spiritual discernment stuff that comes at the cost of alot of spiritual pain sometimes! We have church Twinkies!

I am sorry. I hope I don't offend anyone. I know there are great people in some great churches who use these methds in all sincerity.I just have briefly been involved in one of these church structures and then around the edges of my sister's crazy group and I have felt like I was being 'handled' instead of loved or cared for, if that makes any sense.

eleanor

Meg Evenstar

12-17-2005, 08:58 AM

Oh, Eleanor, were you there in 1999 at CP Baptist Church :eek: ? You just described to a "T" what we did and how it played out :confused: I remember the Spiritual Gifts survey and the classes and the Ministry survey/obligations. We were forced to sigh up. Those who did not, were treated like spiritual dirt. I was the only one who refused to participate. I didn't realize that it was mandatory at the time even though they had said as much that it was. I came under fire from the women's group and the pastor. He preached sermons about me and many folks knew it was me he was talking about too. His famous line was "If you're not here to work, then get out. You are taking up a seat from someone who will". I felt humiliated. My husband did not see this, or choose not to, because, just like Mstar's husband, praise was being heaped on him and his ego was being stroked. It almost ruined or marriage.

This was a Southern Baptist Church and the Purpose Driven Movement is coming out of the SBC. In the SBC they are so focused on church growth and programs that I can't take it anymore. There is a program for everything and no time for people. Does that make sense? What I am saying is that we were so focused on serving that we had no time for relaxing and fellowshipping with each others. Every activity was over planned and everyone was exhausted from serving. I can't tell you how many health and sickness problems CP had and even that was blamed on the people. We were told that our health should not come before the "Lord". We were not to let health problems stop us from "serving", and if we did then our health problems were because we were not doing enough for God. Needless to say I developed some very serious problems which I live with to this day. I'm better now, but not well.

Concerning the OCB Education. I amvery familiar with that one too and the ship wreck it has caused. It was one of the reasons we chose to home school our four children.

Thanks, Eleanor for your insight. You have helped me see so much better just what happened to my family in our church lives.

Meg

ETA: They had something called The Bondage Breakers for those of us who had problems and it was used just like you described :eek:

Meg Evenstar

12-17-2005, 09:16 AM

Just one more thing I have to add:

I just read parts of your link and now I know my instincts and discernment were right. One thing my SA has taught me is to go with those instincts because they are from God to help me from stepping into another hole. Hopefully, I have finally learned from my experiences.

Meg

Eleanor

12-17-2005, 11:03 AM

Meg,

Yes I know of BONDAGE BREAKER. It was given to me by my sister along with several other bboks by Derek Prince and some other peers of his. I was told to smear oil over my doors and windows to protect my home from demons. If I had gone on in this madness I would have been looking for demons everywhere including my washing machine. Please.

I do believe in demons but this is a demon frenzy my sister's group is bound up in.

The PDC programs are now in Catholic churches, Methodist, even some churches of Christ-it was on one of their websites I saw the blinking 'Spiritual Gifts advert. It is in almost every denomination now- not every congregation, but just about every denomination. Alot of them are using Willowcreek and Saddleback material in their classes.I love the idea of home churches right now.

Bill Hybels and Rick warren have to be millionares by now.As do many in the Christian music industry. I have noticed that there are alot of new church growth companies coming up now. Follow the money.

Meg,
I am sorry you went thru this garbage - that is just what it is: trash; and the bottom line with these people is money, control,and/or power.I never really felt any concern about my soul.What they do to people like you, and to people-especially the elderly who do not WANT this in their church is very cruel.Who would have thought the church would turn into just another business?

Glad you are out of that stuff.

eleanor

ex-shep

12-18-2005, 11:58 AM

The comments may be to controversial. If overwhelmed, skip the post for another time. Those who have recently left their groups may find this too uncomfortable. As always take what you like and leave the rest. Feel free to disagree and share what is ever on your heart and mind, or skip over the post.

[QUOTE=Meg Evenstar]Oh, Eleanor, were you there in 1999 at CP Baptist Church :eek: ? You just described to a "T" what we did and how it played out :confused: I remember the Spiritual Gifts survey and the classes and the Ministry survey/obligations. We were forced to sigh up. Those who did not, were treated like spiritual dirt. I was the only one who refused to participate.

Derek Prince was one of the ringleaders of the Shepherding Discipleship Movement. The book did sound chilling. The things I fell for.

The church I attend does have the same classes. By contrast they are strictly voluntary and have a small attendance. We have the covenants which have always made feel me uneasy. There seems to be a healthy mature response to them. Noticeably absent has been any pressure or coercion. The new members class has attenders with six to eighteen months attendance. The spiritual maturity and spiritual gifts class have attenders with over two years attendance. Registration is mentioned on the website, overhead media, and mentioned in annoucements during worship services. My wife have attended three out of the four. I am an inveterate notetaker. My wife prefers to fill in the blanks. It works for her. There have been some spirited discussions and participants are encouraged to jump in with a question or comment.

Obviously the program had a sinister outcome and an abused member. I am sorry to hear of that. It is obvious how the program enviroment could be controlled. I attempted to join a church which required a spiritual gifts inventory for membership. Needless to say my wife and I burned rubber and blasted out of there before we even smelled smoke.

I have used Lifton's criteria for pyschological totalism along with over warning signs and so far it has been relaxed at church. Where I have to be careful is not to be paranoid of every church every time a new idea is introduced. I did go to a church where the pastor was a fan of Bob Mumford. The church enviroment could not have been more relaxed and unassuming. When to lower one's antanae and underreact is a tricky business.

mary

12-18-2005, 12:11 PM

Here is another link regarding PDC concerns; I hope it is correct this time:

www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html

eleanor

www.monergism.com is a wonderful website. Cuts through the mountains of absolute garbage re: religion that's on the Internet these days.

Another one I like is www.apuritansmind.com. Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, while I don't agree with everything he writes, is a great, modern-day Christian thinker.

mary

Eleanor

12-18-2005, 03:25 PM

Interesting post ex-shep;

Glad you found a place to worship where you and your wife are comfortable.

I suspect the demonbusters in my sister's group had been told or decided that they had the gift of discernment and prophetic utterances. I discussed depression with one of the ladies at the retreat I went to and she told me that dealing with those who had had depression and felt spiritually rejected wasn't part of her spiritual gifting. OK.So each apparently worked in a different 'area'.

I do have a problem with some of the church growth programs.In a pre-packaged program that includes all that the PDC package- among others- does: what role does the Holy Spirit have? Have they slotted in some time and space for Him? Is there a class called Holy Spirit 101 after you take the spiritual gifts inventory- or maybe before?Who grows the church- US or the Holy Spirit?

I don't know if this is included in the PDC programs or not but I know that some churches 'set' the atmosphere with music. etc and 'wait' for God to show up- like a trained seal I guess- or maybe its like being summoned like some ancient spirit after you play the right music.I just don't like the cake mix nature of some of this stuff. Take ingredients, add water , mix well.

The church that I attended briefly a few years ago which held the 201, 301, 401 SHAPE classes had been a Church of God. It began to call itself 'CityChurch': taking the city over for God'...We were encouraged to cheer and clap for God as if we were at a football game.Beautiful contemporary music was played on and on and on until people were breaking out in tears. I talked to some of the members who were on the way out of this church and they felt they were strangers in strange land after the church growth program began.The sentiment expressed by them was that if they couldn't get with the programs they were being subtly-albeit nicely -'invited' to leave.Why were long time members feeling ao alien in the church they had been members of for years and years?There was alot wrong here, but I couldn't out my finger on it. The people seemed perfectly sincere but....

It was then I began to read about the PDC a little more. I amj ust beginning to study the roots of it and the little I have read indicates that its roots are in Humanism and in business. Nice and pragmatic. Again where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

ex-shep

12-18-2005, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=Eleanor]Interesting post ex-shep;

Glad you found a place to worship where you and your wife are comfortable.

Who grows the church- US or the Holy Spirit?

I don't know if this is included in the PDC programs or not but I know that some churches 'set' the atmosphere with music. etc and 'wait' for God to show up- like a trained seal I guess- or maybe its like being summoned like some ancient spirit after you play the right music.I just don't like the cake mix nature of some of this stuff. Take ingredients, add water , mix well.

The church that I attended briefly a few years ago which held the 201, 301, 401 SHAPE classes had been a Church of God. It began to call itself 'CityChurch': taking the city over for God'...We were encouraged to cheer and clap for God as if we were at a football game.Beautiful contemporary music was played on and on and on until people were breaking out in tears. I talked to some of the members who were on the way out of this church and they felt they were strangers in strange land after the church growth program began.The sentiment expressed by them was that if they couldn't get with the programs they were being subtly-albeit nicely -'invited' to leave.Why were long time members feeling ao alien in the church they had been members of for years and years?There was alot wrong here, but I couldn't out my finger on it. The people seemed perfectly sincere but....

*****
Interesting a combination of Saddleback programs with Manisfest Sons Latter Rain teaching. I looked through our training manuals and found the SHAPE model. No doubt about the pre-packaging. The worship dynamic I remember well from the pentecostal bible school I left over 20 years ago. If we pray hard enough, worship hard enough, dance hard enough and "make fools of ourselves" hard enough we will bring about the prescence of God in our midst. It was a form of mass hypnotism. It left me drugged and addicted for more. There was a belief that we were to bring revival to the area and ultimately the Lord's Secoming. Only one problem, the Lord will come when He is good and ready and not of our own efforts.

I guess I am able to work around the packaging and handouts by taking my own notes and then looking them over later. I go back and check the scripture references myself. Sometimes I find flaws. Sometimes I dig deeper and found out more on what was being taught. The services I usually catch are devoted to teaching. The Sunday services usually deal with living issues.

The classes definitely ring a bell. I have taken them. It can have the tendency of putting God in a box.

Where is the Holy Spirit is an excellent question.

I can understand the critics complaints on growth. Christianity is not a numbers game. I did throw a challenge to one of the pastors about the decline or plateau in our numbers. I suggested that maybe this is good time to allow the Holy Spirit to mould us and direct on where to go from here. Maybe it is time to take inventory and where can we best use our resources. I also quipped that and $3.50 will buy a venti non fat one sugar latte.

Carmen

12-19-2005, 03:49 AM

Pretty soon there will be purpose-driven Jews too, I have heard of a program called Synagogue 3000. Have talked to some reasonable Jews that would never have anything to do with it, though.

As far as combinations go, you can mix and match a lot of these ideas - purpose-driven can fit to just about anything, including the movements already there like the city-church bunch, the Spiritual Warfare people which are often the same ones, or the Latter Rain teaching. It is strange how well they all link up together.

I remember the addiction part, too. I was addicted to "spiritual" experiences and was willing to follow anyone that would offer the next one. Intelligence will not protect someone from these things either, it is just that they have often been taken in during an emotionally weak moment and learn to shut their brains off, to "let go and let God." The only way to avoid this, I think, is not to let go of one's intellect, and to inform oneself about possible dangers and sound doctrine.

Those classes put people in boxes, too. From what I read about it, the boxes are much too confining, they are designed to encourage tithing and obedience to the church system. You can't be a part of the system unless you tithe to begin with. I think that Christlike character should be more of an issue, rather than if one is paying money. And even then they shouldn't be so nitpicky like some of those homeschooling orgs that care about how people dress or whether they own a TV.

Alpha Course (Nicky Gumbel) takes care of the Holy Spirit course. That is also being used in Catholic churches as well. I am trying to get first-hand information from a course being offered here. Will take the next one I can (am not recommending this, rather the opposite).

Eleanor

12-19-2005, 10:00 PM

ex-shep

12-19-2005, 11:29 PM

I remember the addiction part, too. I was addicted to "spiritual" experiences and was willing to follow anyone that would offer the next one. Intelligence will not protect someone from these things either, it is just that they have often been taken in during an emotionally weak moment and learn to shut their brains off, to "let go and let God." The only way to avoid this, I think, is not to let go of one's intellect, and to inform oneself about possible dangers and sound doctrine.

Those classes put people in boxes, too. From what I read about it, the boxes are much too confining, they are designed to encourage tithing and obedience to the church system.

I can remember the addictive components all too well in the Bible School services.

The Saddleback formula is too confining. I will use it as a starting point and branch out from there. I refuse to let it be the be end all there. Fortunately the staff and the membership at large is glad to have me. Fortunately we have teaching sermons which are extensive and require some homework for those who want to. We have two associate pastors who are masters of exposition. I take notes and come back to it later. Not all the churches in the denomination subscribe to the Saddleback formula. I have seen in the national website. The sermon styles vary greatly. I do spend time listening to webcasts from other churches. I do try to stay on what is happening locally and nationally. But I digress.

Theodora

12-19-2005, 11:56 PM

I've just been following this thread intermittently since so much of this is "new" to me....

Just wanted to encourage you to keep up your steady, level-headed approach to finding what YOU need by way of spiritual support---be it making snowflakes in a group--or just posting here---or WHATEVER.

Grace and peace to you and yours this night.

Theodora

--

I remember the addiction part, too. I was addicted to "spiritual" experiences and was willing to follow anyone that would offer the next one. Intelligence will not protect someone from these things either, it is just that they have often been taken in during an emotionally weak moment and learn to shut their brains off, to "let go and let God." The only way to avoid this, I think, is not to let go of one's intellect, and to inform oneself about possible dangers and sound doctrine.

Those classes put people in boxes, too. From what I read about it, the boxes are much too confining, they are designed to encourage tithing and obedience to the church system.

I can remember the addictive components all too well in the Bible School services.

The Saddleback formula is too confining. I will use it as a starting point and branch out from there. I refuse to let it be the be end all there. Fortunately the staff and the membership at large is glad to have me. Fortunately we have teaching sermons which are extensive and require some homework for those who want to. We have two associate pastors who are masters of exposition. I take notes and come back to it later. Not all the churches in the denomination subscribe to the Saddleback formula. I have seen in the national website. The sermon styles vary greatly. I do spend time listening to webcasts from other churches. I do try to stay on what is happening locally and nationally. But I digress.

Carmen

12-20-2005, 04:28 AM

I can remember the addictive components all too well in the Bible School services.

The Saddleback formula is too confining. I will use it as a starting point and branch out from there. I refuse to let it be the be end all there. Fortunately the staff and the membership at large is glad to have me. Fortunately we have teaching sermons which are extensive and require some homework for those who want to. We have two associate pastors who are masters of exposition. I take notes and come back to it later. Not all the churches in the denomination subscribe to the Saddleback formula. I have seen in the national website. The sermon styles vary greatly. I do spend time listening to webcasts from other churches. I do try to stay on what is happening locally and nationally. But I digress.
I find that expository preaching keeps the one speaking on topic. It is much more difficult to just pick any old topic and preach on it if one is going through one book chapter by chapter. Those listening also get an overall better idea of whole passages of Scripture - I think that this method better conveys what Scripture has to say than just jumping around in it and trying to find passages that fit the latest fad. I'm more on a search for truth rather than one for affirmation or warm fuzzies. Truth isn't always warm and fuzzy. People ought to be loving to one another, but I am not sure that the material being learned is always supposed to be that way. I think there is a difference.

Hope 98

12-20-2005, 07:28 AM

The church that I attend preaches through the Bible - for the most part. They stray from that for special occasions (such as baptisms) and visiting speakers, and we do sidetrack some. A recent passage in Joshua led us to a series on the Great Commision.

What's funny is that they started this about 10-12 years ago, and we are somewhere near the end of Joshua. They were in Leviticus when we first attended about 4 1/2 years ago.

I guess we can't get too far from focusing on exactlywhat the Bible says that way. I think I would like to move a little faster through the Bible or alternate between the New and Old Testaments, but it's another one of those things that are not really significant compared to the way that the people in this congregation treat each other and those outside the congregation.

I am, at this point, convinced that this church is one of very few that are truly safe. I'm extremely grateful for that.

Jerry

12-20-2005, 08:00 AM

I find that expository preaching keeps the one speaking on topic. It is much more difficult to just pick any old topic and preach on it if one is going through one book chapter by chapter. Those listening also get an overall better idea of whole passages of Scripture - I think that this method better conveys what Scripture has to say than just jumping around in it and trying to find passages that fit the latest fad. I'm more on a search for truth rather than one for affirmation or warm fuzzies. Truth isn't always warm and fuzzy. People ought to be loving to one another, but I am not sure that the material being learned is always supposed to be that way. I think there is a difference.

Preach It Carmen !!! Yes!!!! strike a blow for sanity and proper teaching :D
Love Jerry

Kerrin

12-21-2005, 03:14 AM

The Alpha Group - Wow, Carmen you are so right.

Toronto Blessing

Brownsville Church

Ex-shep earlier cited the Latter Rain influences;William Branham.

I experienced some strange things at the ladies retreat I went to with my sister's group: including laying on of hands, one person seated in the middle of all the ladies speaking in tongues, interspersed with 'Get back, Satan!' and things of that nature.

'Deliverance' with the deliverer shouting, "come on out of there you demon",
seeing ladies knocked over and laid out by the spirit. 'Holy' Laughter.The leader told us during Michael W. Smith's "Let it Rain" that God would pour down on you like honey.

www.apologeticsindex.org (-type in Alpha)

I have read of the Toronto Blessing phenomena being compared to the Kundalini awakening experienced in some Hindu groups. The manifestations include hysterical laughter, crying, making strange noises, fainting,quaking...

A lady at the group had visited the Toronto church and she said when she was there she felt as if she had been plugged into a light socket. Whoa.

I have enough problems. Guess I am glad my sister's group has turned me over to the 'tormentor'.LOL

I have only just read soem of the posts here, all of the above "teaching" etc......is what I had to endure at my old Church which is mainstream Anglican (Church of England).
The whole Alpha 'deal' which I had to do twice, once by myself, to receive the Holy Spirit! And once with Brian before we were married so our Vicar was 'certain' he had recived the Holy Sptirit! ( Brian was catholic, so it was a "given" he needed Deliverance!).
I am ashamed now to say I was a Youth Alpha leader :eek:
( I am so sorry for Amy; that I did that to her!:( ).
I was made to attend a huge conference with the Brownsville people who came out here from the States, to "deliver' and teach us "saved" Aussies what it meant to be 'sanctified'........they seemed to use that word a lot! I was involved in, and witnessed all that frenzied 'carry on" that you, Eleanor, have described so well!
Interesting isn't it???

When I got booted out of my church ,was when I started to question ; as in "where in the Bible are there references to frenzied behaviour, and deliverance, in order to be 'saved', and to receive the Holy Spirit!"
It seemed to me, the more noise you made.....the more spiritual you were!!
If I am backslidden, as 'they' claim, then I'd rather keep sliding..........
Only my two cents worth.
Love
Kerrin;)
Jesus , to me, just seemed to be a whole lot gentler in speaking to people.......even demons, on the odd occassion that He cast one, or more, out!

Kerrin

12-21-2005, 03:39 AM

I have only just read soem of the posts here, all of the above "teaching" etc......is what I had to endure at my old Church which is mainstream Anglican (Church of England).
The whole Alpha 'deal' which I had to do twice, once by myself, to receive the Holy Spirit! And once with Brian before we were married so our Vicar was 'certain' he had recived the Holy Sptirit! ( Brian was catholic, so it was a "given" he needed Deliverance!).
I am ashamed now to say I was a Youth Alpha leader
( I am so sorry for Amy; that I did that to her! ).
I was made to attend a huge conference with the Brownsville people who came out here from the States, to "deliver' and teach us "saved" Aussies what it meant to be 'sanctified'........they seemed to use that word a lot! I was involved in, and witnessed all that frenzied 'carry on" that you, Eleanor, have described so well!
Interesting isn't it???

When I got booted out of my church ,was when I started to question ; as in "where in the Bible are there references to frenzied behaviour, and deliverance, in order to be 'saved', and to receive the Holy Spirit!"
It seemed to me, the more noise you made.....the more spiritual you were!!
If I am backslidden, as 'they' claim, then I'd rather keep sliding..........
Only my two cents worth.
Love
Kerrin
Jesus , to me, just seemed to be a whole lot gentler in speaking to people.......even demons, on the odd occassion that He cast one, or more, out!

:o Sorry, I took too long to "edit"! ( so this is a bit backwards, and I missed the "spell check" I hate that!!).
I just wanted to add I also had to do the SHAPE course amongst others in an attempt to "equip" me!
It seemed the more 'equiping" and deliverance I had , the more I was removed from ANY 'doing'......I was a "loose Canon"......that is according to my old Vicar , amongst other names!

I have a lOT of paper teaching , which now is meaningless really , because it seems , in my experience the fastest way to Jesus is the Bible and trying to emulate Him!
I don't recall Jesus locking His disciples up for months or even years to teach them how to be "like Him' or spread the Good news.
I believe it was the opposite, ,"Get off yer butt and get out there" , something like that anyway..;)
I like the simple way .......which I think is how God intended His word to be understood...not copious amounts of so-called expert 'teaching', ( I use that word loosely!).
Again, just thinking out loud ....:confused:

Carmen

12-21-2005, 07:58 AM

When I got booted out of my church ,was when I started to question ; as in "where in the Bible are there references to frenzied behaviour, and deliverance, in order to be 'saved', and to receive the Holy Spirit!"
It seemed to me, the more noise you made.....the more spiritual you were!!
If I am backslidden, as 'they' claim, then I'd rather keep sliding..........
Only my two cents worth.
Love
Kerrin;)
Jesus , to me, just seemed to be a whole lot gentler in speaking to people.......even demons, on the odd occassion that He cast one, or more, out!
I agree with you 100% Kerrin. I'd rather be labeled a "backslider" than carry on like they do.
I think Christianity is much simpler than most make it out to be. And teaching can be overdone, too. I think that it is more to get the good stuff in your head so you can recognize the bad stuff when you see it. Christianity by example is the best way of living like a Christian.
If being free from all that garbage means I'm "backslidin'" then I'll get down that slide quick and with a "Wheee!" to boot.

ex-shep

12-21-2005, 01:37 PM

I agree with you 100% Kerrin. I'd rather be labeled a "backslider" than carry on like they do.
I think Christianity is much simpler than most make it out to be. And teaching can be overdone, too. I think that it is more to get the good stuff in your head so you can recognize the bad stuff when you see it. Christianity by example is the best way of living like a Christian.
If being free from all that garbage means I'm "backslidin'" then I'll get down that slide quick and with a "Wheee!" to boot.

Yeah, I became and agent of Satan, a slander of the bretheren, my eyes were not on Jesus, and I was consigned to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. As Garfield would say, "Big fat harry deal".

It is not backsliding. It just the abuse is so intense that even the most dedicated follower in Christ has to get away from it, and sadly, take a long vacation from it. I blew up at a heckling lady from my former bible school, on the bus, who had the effrontery to say I did not have my eyes on Jesus, "Lady, the fact I did is what got me out of here in the first place".

ex-shep

12-21-2005, 01:54 PM

[QUOTE=Kerrin]I have only just read soem of the posts here, all of the above "teaching" etc......is what I had to endure at my old Church which is mainstream Anglican (Church of England).
The whole Alpha 'deal' which I had to do twice, once by myself, to receive the Holy Spirit! And once with Brian before we were married so our Vicar was 'certain' he had recived the Holy Sptirit! ( Brian was catholic, so it was a "given" he needed Deliverance!).
My apologies for editing your text. I just wanted to separate the posts for easier reading. I know I was always suspicious of the second blessing or baptism of the Holy Spirit. I accepted the Lord, I received the Holy Spirit. End of discussion.

I am ashamed now to say I was a Youth Alpha leader :eek:
( I am so sorry for Amy; that I did that to her!:( ).

I was too feeling ashamed that I was actually stalking a college coed when I thought was following the Lord;s will. A year and half after I left my group, I had a conversation with a lady who was in charismactic shepherding group herself. She did make some interesting observations, "Did you know about mind control and sheperding when you were in [college and your groups]?"

"no"

"Did [the girl you were chasing] know about shepherding and mind control?"

"Of course not"

"There you go. Neither of you were aware of what going on. You did the best with what you had"

Needless to say. It took a big weight off my shoulders.

I was made to attend a huge conference with the Brownsville people who came out here from the States, to "deliver' and teach us "saved" Aussies what it meant to be 'sanctified'........they seemed to use that word a lot! I was involved in, and witnessed all that frenzied 'carry on" that you, Eleanor, have described so well!
Interesting isn't it???

The bible school was equally nutty. Same old same old

When I got booted out of my church ,was when I started to question ; as in "where in the Bible are there references to frenzied behaviour, and deliverance, in order to be 'saved', and to receive the Holy Spirit!"

It never was. It was added in Pentecostal movements we have today.

It seemed to me, the more noise you made.....the more spiritual you were!!
If I am backslidden, as 'they' claim, then I'd rather keep sliding..........
Only my two cents worth.

Excellent observation. Yep, describes me over 20 years ago.
Kerrin;)

Jesus , to me, just seemed to be a whole lot gentler in speaking to people.......even demons, on the odd occassion that He cast one, or more, out!

How about the woman caught in adultery?

Kerrin

12-21-2005, 05:25 PM

"They ruined my second chance at happiness with these methods.I was almost engaged, until they told me he was another "one like my first husband!":( Shouldn't have listened , he was probably more normal than any human I've met; too late now.

We were told that our health should not come before the "Lord". We were not to let health problems stop us from "serving", and if we did then our health problems were because we were not doing enough for God. Needless to say I developed some very serious problems which I live with to this day. I'm better now, but not well..

Sounds all too familiar!!

ETA: They had something called The Bondage Breakers for those of us who had problems and it was used just like you described :eek:[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Thank you both.
As for Neil Anderson. My Church used his teaching as a last ditch effort for those of us not yet "delivered" enough!!
I vowed never to read his stuff again.
Someone here suggested once I should have another look; on doing so, I think he would be mortified at how his teaching is being mis represented!
His teaching isn't so bad , it's those who twist it, just like the Bible to suit their own vouyeristic purposes!

And thanks Shep for your validation!
I'm enjoying my 'backsliding" too , so much more than their brand of 'Church'; for now, it's here.....;)
Love
Kerrin

ex-shep

12-21-2005, 06:17 PM

That was a momumental problem with Tammy's group 20 years. The Lord comes first. It sounded convincing that I flunked a midterm because I was up all night praying and counseling a student in distress. Sounds like codependency gone awry.

I cringe when I hear "you are not ______ enough." Performance salvation at its worst. I let Tammy have it when she was working overtime and trying to do a major bible study. By contrast the membership coordinator will take somebody aside and tell to take it easy if she a member get over involved.

Eleanor

12-21-2005, 07:16 PM

What great posts on here.

I guess what intimidates/frightens/disturbs/angers me about some church groups is the assumption that I - or anyone- isn't contrite enough, sincere enough, humble enough or sanctified enough to even suit God.

I know I want to do what is right and I know I believe with all my heart everything Jesus said and I have accepted him as my savior. I also know I fall short but grace carries me through. Its a tender and loving relationship that God has with us and it felt like the women I ran up against at that retreat didn't feel what I had with God was good enough.They wanted to run me through some kind of assembly line of their own making.

To top it off two of these women- mercifully just two that know of- seemed to feel justification and apparent gratification in pointing out my questions about PDC. and refusal to be accountable to a discipler, and their own 'discernment' marked me as rebellious.

They turned me over to the tormentor - because 'sometimes that is the only way some people will bend their will to God's" because of all of these things and more. They told this to my sister- and each other-but not me.I stated earlier here that I was looking- no- longing- for the fellowship of other Christian women and initially felt safe with them because my sister was part of them and I knew she loved me...

I have often wondered in what way someone is turned over to the tormentor. Do they pray for Satan to torment you? Do they 'give' his demonic angels permission to torment one? Do they stop praying for you?Do they ask God to release you from under His protection and care and attempt to get God to cooperate with them in this way? Or are they just praying for terrible things to happen to you so you will 'repent'? I have never known and have never asked anyone about this.

I had had a stress induced breakdown two years earlier, after being the caretaker of my mother after her head injury two years before that.. I was tired, and feeling somewhat raw. I didn't realize all they wanted was to 'fix' me( I didn't know I need fixing) and were operating on the premise that something was 'wrong' with me.(crazy)

Because I had grown up in a 'dry' church with alot of legalism attached to it, they assumed I was covered with the demons of Phariseeism(spirit of religion-hey I am really getting good with the lingo)) even though my sister knew I had left this church 30 years before because I no longer believed in what they taught-as they taught it..works based theology..etc.

Not long afterward I began attending this church again some because my daughter wanted to go with her grandmother and I didn't want her to go essentially alone there.I still had and have the same feelings about much of this denomination altho things are changing some. Then I REALLY was- according to them- carrying these 'religious spirits' and not only that , as one of them put it, "going through the motions of going to church on Sunday and living as the world does the rest of the week."

I felt so beaten up by these people, like they were rabid dogs or something, when I read what all they had said. - I have the e-mails- 99% of what they said was among themselves; not TO me. That puzzles me too. Not one of them over the last three years has spontaneously called or written me to see how I was doing. STRANGE.

One time the leader sent me a prayer which said something on the order of: "oh Lord please help Eleanor realize our salvation is based on our becoming Christ-like, "... etc..."and please let Help Eleanor find a group of Christians who will love her and support her spiritually...." My sister forwarded it to me.

I wrote back -to my sister-and said if more people would DO these things instead of praying for other people to do them the world of Christianity would be a nicer place.She forwarded it right to this woman, just as she did all our e-mail communication I later found out.

I never heard back form either one of them on this.My sister probably soaked the e-mail in Wesson oil and prayed over it.

When the time comes that I stop going to the chruch I do now- and I do love some of the people there- especially the elderly people-I will probably never be a member of any church again.

I am rambling Just my two cents.

Willow

12-21-2005, 08:09 PM

I have often wondered in what way someone is turned over to the tormentor. Do they pray for Satan to torment you? Do they 'give' his demonic angels permission to torment one? Do they stop praying for you?Do they ask God to release you from under His protection and care and attempt to get God to cooperate with them in this way? Or are they just praying for terrible things to happen to you so you will 'repent'? I have never known and have never asked anyone about this.

Hey El... I just wanted to let you know that the man that Paul was referring to when they turned him over to the tormenter... was a pedophile!!! He was a child abuser!!! This was a case of someone who was doing great damage in the church and they needed to keep him from doing more harm. I hope this makes a difference. Reading things in context does wonders for me!!!

Willow

12-21-2005, 08:12 PM

Got to say that I was in church when all this purpose stuff got started by some man from the bahamas named Myles Monroe. Can't believe how far it's infiltrated into the denominational world. You also may want to check out a man named Peter Wagner.

OK... enough name dropping!!!! I guess that's a no-no here!

Eleanor

12-21-2005, 08:29 PM

Willow,

Thanks for the info re:tormentor.

I was totally ignorant of where the term even came from. I guess the retreat ladies were too, and just co-opted it for their own use- so to speak.

Yes, context does do wonders.

Eleanor

Meg Evenstar

12-21-2005, 08:59 PM

To top it off two of these women- mercifully just two that know of- seemed to feel justification and apparent gratification in pointing out my questions about PDC. and refusal to be accountable to a discipler, and their own 'discernment' marked me as rebellious.

.

Yes, these are great posts and I have learned a lot. I now better understand what I have been through.

In reference to the above quote, one thing I have learned from my old church is to NEVER make yourself accountable to a discipler. We had to do this and this is how my friend Jill was done in. Her prayer partner was telling all of Jill's confessions/struggles to the pastor who used the information against Jill. Her prayer partner was the lady I spoke of who became the pastor's eyes and ears. She also disclosed all of Jill's personal confidences to other selected ladies in the church so they could "pray" for her. The results were that Jill was humiliated and ruined in the community. She and her family tried to visit two different churches in the community, but once our church learned about it we passed the word along to the pastor of the church she was visiting and they became cold as ice to Jill and family. Essentially, they were shunned letting them know they were not welcome. It was later told to Jill that she was a trouble maker and not welcome in the area churches. She had to leave our Baptist Association to find a church. Thankfully today the truth of CP is know and now Jill is welcome back in the community.

Meg

Kerrin

12-22-2005, 03:30 AM

Eleanor,
Your story is so much like mine it's scary, yet reassuring!
I'm not crazy!
It's "them".
My 'best friend" was one of those women you talk about....but there is no accountability for the few chosen by the church leadership.
In my case it was a Vicar!
I often wonder Why, when in every other organisation there is a reporting mechanism with a clear line of authority with major accountability , yet the 'church' has none , and none is expected.........and, as in other organisations , the more responsibility the greater the consequences!
I guess they figure ,or justify it, as accountable to God only , but on their terms!!
They way I got "handed over" was to ignore me in the street , pray evil spirits off me, avoid talking to me for fear of "catching" the rebellious "jezebell" I was called by our vicar! He told my mother , who doesn't believe in spirits of any kind, I had a Jezebell spirit!
He told my 'best friend' to stay away.....and she did!
Those who haven't ignored me, look at me with pity and shake their heads as if I am some pathetic monster.
I try to take comfort in the fact that one day , that Vicar will stand before God and be judged, the others?? I figure , and this is me only, and it's still an intellectual thing, I have to forgive , 'for they know not what they do.."....and if they do 'know' , well then they're in for an even bigger shock when they stand before Him!

The first 12 months out of my Church have been hell , so if that was their intention, they succeeded!
I still don't have any new friends, I don't know if I can trust anyone again after them!
When my husband left me, they blamed me for not being submissive enough! Have you been told that one too?? That you're not submissive enough, I mean.
I'm sure you have, it's in line with all the teaching you've been receiving..........

AS far as the discernment of the chosen few to do what they do! It's just vouyeristic as far as I'm concerned! The more sordid details about your past they can "deliver' and 'sanctify' and "heal" you from........the more they want to know!!!!!!
At least , thats' how it was for me, downright humiliating to think that now my awful past , which I had kept under lock and key way down deep inside, is public knowledge in my local area.........*sigh*:(
( That's why I have been so transparent since coming here..........everone knows anyway, nothing left to hide).
Thanks for listening,
Love
Kerrin:o
I still find it discouraging though after all this time that, someone there would have woken up, instead they all still follow each other like sheep to Church every sunday.....same old same old....
( Arterburn's new book, which I posted about on the other board addresses' some of these issues, especially with Healing!!;) ).

Eleanor

12-22-2005, 05:31 AM

[QUOTE=Kerrin]Eleanor,
Your story is so much like mine it's scary, yet reassuring!
I'm not crazy!
It's "them".
My 'best friend" was one of those women you talk about....but there is no accountability for the few chosen by the church leadership.
In my case it was a Vicar!"

Kerrin, did all this happened to you in the ANGLICAN church? I think I read this but not sure.

Meg, you wrote of your experiences in the SBC. ( I wish I could paste some of that here, but I don't know how to paste off more than one post)

This just has not been the tradition of the Anglicans or the Baptists in the past- to get into all this 'demon frenzy'. I think ten years ago if this kind of thing had happened in a Southern Baptist Convention church it would have been shut down by the top guys.

KERRIN: "I often wonder Why, when in every other organisation there is a reporting mechanism with a clear line of authority with major accountability , yet the 'church' has none , and none is expected.........and, as in other organisations , the more responsibility the greater the consequences!
I guess they figure ,or justify it, as accountable to God only , but on their terms!!"

I think you are right Kerrin. When these people say that God is their only authority they take license to inflict the worst kind of abuse on people.They are so deceived and I believe full of the idea that THEY have had this discernment bestowed upon them by the Holy Spirit. How heady!

These women I wrote about are from several different charismatic churches in their area. They all used to go to the same church, but when it merged with another church several went their own ways. The self- appointed leader is a member of an area congregation and I do believe she is 'under' the umbrella and authority of her church-

I e-mailed the pastor of that church - and without ID-ing the women or even saying that my experience was with some women from HIS church, I told him what happened to me and wondered if this kind of activity went on with the approval of the leaders there. I wrote as if I were scoping the church out- to maybe attend in the future. I thought I might get some kind of stand on this kind of thing from him, but I never received an answer back.

KERRIN:"They way I got "handed over" was to ignore me in the street , pray evil spirits off me, avoid talking to me for fear of "catching" the rebellious "jezebell" I was called by our vicar! He told my mother , who doesn't believe in spirits of any kind, I had a Jezebell spirit!
He told my 'best friend' to stay away.....and she did!"

'Handed over' . There it is again. I was 'handed over' too. Willow cited the context of that term used in the New Testament and it had to do with a child abuser being turned over to the tormentor.Where in the charismatic world are people 'getting' the authority to do this? There must be a book out that instructs them to do this for 'rebellious' people.(Probably 'Demonbusting 101')

There clearly is no authority in the bible for doing this to people in ordinary life. I am no child abuser and I know you aren't either.

I think they told my sister to stay away from me as well, and maybe this explains why none of them have ever even tried to hold a "hi, how are you doing?" conversation with me. I am too "saturated' with demon infestations!I've been ex-communicated from a group I never belonged to!WOW.

KERRIN:"I still don't have any new friends, I don't know if I can trust anyone again after them!
When my husband left me, they blamed me for not being submissive enough! Have you been told that one too?? "

Submission - or lack of it- seemed to be a major problem these people had with me. As I said - what I noticed after the retreat was that my sister became more distant, vague. I e-mailed her one time about a situation involving our mother and I received an e-mail from this retreat leader( the leader of the pack), asking me what I needed my sister to do or say about this situation ....I still didn't 'get' what was happening.

It irritated me at the time, but now I think she may have been instructed to turn communications from me over to them. Don't know. After I found the more than 100 e-mails I realized that when dealing or talking to my sister, I might as well have hired a lecture hall; because our lives- my life, my feelings , my thoughts- and hers too, are now an open book.No wonder she carefully chose her words to me or simply didn't respond. She knew she was being monitored.

I had never formally or informally put myself under the teaching of these women and their reading my private thoughts about things I had written to my sister just makes me want to vomit.They have taken things that are none of their business, twisted its meanings, distorted them, and used them to destroy me and my daughter in the eyes of my sister. And yes some of their garbage has seeped into my area as well, thanks to my sister.

Jerry said earlier; my sister is being deceived and I believe he is right.Yet she told them outright lies about me- maybe to look better in the eyes of her leaders.It is a nightmare.

KERRIN:"AS far as the discernment of the chosen few to do what they do! It's just vouyeristic as far as I'm concerned! The more sordid details about your past they can "deliver' and 'sanctify' and "heal" you from........the more they want to know!!!!!!
At least , thats' how it was for me, downright humiliating to think that now my awful past , which I had kept under lock and key way down deep inside, is public knowledge in my local area.........*sigh*:(
( That's why I have been so transparent since coming here..........everone knows anyway, nothing left to hide)."

Yeah I think it is voyeuristic.Exactly! Its like some nasty person standing outside your window peeking around the blinds you have drawn, and getting their 'kicks' from it.Maybe that is really what the frenzy is about, complete with the heavy breathing. On some level these people know they are delving into forbidden-by God- territory. Spreading info around seems to generate lots of 'kicks ' for them as well.I feel dirty just talking about it.

Meg's post about Jill is so similar to your story, Kerrin. I have gotten off lightly compared to the stories of yours.How is Jill now, Meg?

I am content for the moment to go to my dry, fundamentalist Church of Christ church with my mother and child. I just want to be able to say hello to a few nice people and to hear it back.Compared to what I have heard of here and what I experienced with the Demonbusters, this church is a breath of fresh air.At least they stay out of your business. Like I said, when I stop attending here someday- I doubt I wll venture into organized church again. What was I thinking????

Eleanor

12-22-2005, 06:41 AM

Note: I said that my sister was ...silent and wary in her responses to me when I communicated with her because she knew she was being monitered. Wrong chice of words. She was not being monitored.She just knew she would be sending every e-mail I sent her on to her discipler- reason? ????. Two different things. Its not like she had spyware on her computer installed by these people.

Also I said the church where I go now minds its own business. Not quite totally accurate, but, we'll see how strong they believe their hold is when and if I try to pull my daughter out. And she wants to stay.They aren't bothering me at this point at all. I like the concept of don't ask, don't tell.....

This old man he played two
He played knick knack on my shoe
With a knick knack paddywack
Give the dog a bone
This old man came rolling home

This was going through my head after reading Jerry's post. Now I'll be hearing it all day.
Jerry this is your fault.

Eleanor

Enochwar

12-22-2005, 06:54 AM

Hello Everyone,

PDC was what brought me to this site. I have a lot to say but will probably say it in the venting forum later when I have more time to sort it out.:confused:

To my understanding PDL (Purpose Driven Life) has initially helped many people to get a basic understanding of what the Christian walk might look like. Unfortunately instead of using it for what it should be (a tool to encourage growth in Christ) it is brought along side the Bible and taught as the way everyone should "do church".:p (The Holy Spirit is the only One Who comes along side to help us, isn't He.?)

In theory, it looks and sounds good...(thus the deception). It was presented to our church as a way to help more people get involved in ministry, reach out to the community with the gospel and (most of all) grow the congregation with new believers rather than church transfers.;)

It never took into account prayer or personalities.:rolleyes:

They changed our mission statement from one of loving people to "living a life". They claimed the change would help us "measure our progress". HA!

A lot of what the "leadership" was taught could have been come out of business school. :rolleyes:

As we got deeper into it everything began to go south. (I can say that since I live here :D )

All symbols of the Cross, the Blood were taken away. The mention of sin (which I can understand because of misuse and abuse) was eliminated. The pulpit was replaced with a podium and the modesty rail replaced with risers for the "choir" who now sing perhaps once a month, if at all. (they were "replaced" by the worship band.) No old hymns that mention the Blood or sin or the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, just happy upbeat, feel good music. Yea! :) No altar call. (so if you have a problem make an appointment for next week) We have teaching on how we should live with little mention of how the Holy Spirit is to help you do it or examples of how God helped others in their time of need (and therefore will love and help you also). Everyone was to conform to the program. Many who could not or would not were asked to resign their VOLUNTEER posts or simply leave ...a.k.a. "You might be happier elswhere.". (They were replaced with the conformers) etc. etc. etc.:( :( :( (I just wonder if they could have added the new without removing the old. They have recently started doing a few "remixed old hymns" but it's too little too late.)

It was all geared to "reach" a certain people within a particular group (none of which reflected our church at the time). Our church was pretty diverse in group, economics, culture yet with all our differences we still functioned and worked together. They (Pastors new and old) wanted to reach the young middle class. Fine but what about the rest of us? We were being taught to make sacrifices, change in order to serve those coming in. Fine...but how were we to get in order to give out?:confused:

It's like having a household of teenagers, but because a new baby is coming everyone has to eat Gerber baby food! No more steak and potatoes. EVER!:rolleyes:

The whole thing was more of a hostle business take over, rather than a "transmission" as they called it when Pastor Change came. (my opinion)

Like I said in theory it looks and sounds, good in practice....people are not really taken into account. It's good for a church that is just starting out (which is what R. W. the author wrote it for because that is what he was doing!) The author clearly states in his book that if you have a congregation of over 60 to 100 you SHOULD NOT USE THESE METHODS! :mad: ...unless....you wanted to change the dynamics of your church...I recently found out from a man who was a deacon (who has left the church) that, that was what the "leadership" had set out to do (which is why he resigned his position. He did not think it right to neglect those who were already there to reach a narrow group of people. He thought that God was the One who grew His church the way He desired. God place who He desired in a particular congregation for a particular reason.)

I 've got to go...

The bottom line is PDC is man growing the church the way he wants to rather than depending on God to do what He desires to do through man. (my opinion)

PDC is the new Pharisee. Doing good to look good instead of depending on God to make us good, and out of that, comes the ability to do good. (my view):cool:

PDC would work if we were just starting a church from scratch. It would be perfict if you were dealing with machines/robots working in a purely business environment.

When you deal people with needs, hurts, sins, ...people who need to know Someone loves and cares for them....we need our Savior Jesus, our Heavenly Father, and the help of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. (My view);)

Thanks for listening,

Enochwar, out :D

Enochwar

12-22-2005, 07:08 AM

Eleanor

12-22-2005, 07:34 AM

Willow

12-22-2005, 07:45 AM

Interesting article I stumbled upon in the dallas news online... I think it applies to this thread...

Americans embracing Osteen's feel-good gospel

Americans are embracing his feel-good gospel

08:15 AM CST on Thursday, December 22, 2005

Whose 2005 tour was so hot that Chicago scalpers were charging 10 times the face value of tickets to the arena show? U2? Rolling Stones? Try high-voltage Houston pastor Joel Osteen, who emerged as a No. 1 New York Times best-selling author and one of the nation's most popular religious leaders.

Mr. Osteen, 42, has come a long way since 1999, when he abruptly took over the reins of Houston's nondenominational Lakewood Church after his father's fatal heart attack. The new pastor was a college dropout with no formal theological training who had preached from the Lakewood stage for the first time only days earlier.

But under the boyish and personable Mr. Osteen, the multiracial Lakewood congregation quadrupled in membership. Last summer, Lakewood moved into Houston's 16,000-seat Compaq Center and claimed the title of Nation's Largest Church.

And Mr. Osteen's book, Your Best Life Now, reached nearly 3 million in print. Along with Rick (The Purpose-Driven Life) Warren, Mr. Osteen has become the avatar of a brand of Christianity taking America by storm.

Mr. Osteen's version of the faith eschews traditional Christianity, pitching an optimistic gospel of self-improvement. A popular TV figure, he stands apart from old-line televangelists by not appealing for money and avoiding hot-button issues. Though criticized for downplaying sin and repentance, and for a simplistic message to a self-involved flock, Mr. Osteen wins converts through plain-spokenness and relevance of his teachings. And whatever the theological complaints, no one has accused the pastor of financial or moral impropriety (and you can't blame him for his wife's diva-like behavior this week that got the Osteen family booted off a flight to Vail).

His Christianized version of the power of positive thinking has also helped push Pentecostalism – once on the fringes of American religious life – further into the mainstream. Mr. Osteen's wide impact gives him a berth among finalists for Dallas Morning News Texan of the Year for the Year of Our Lord 2005.

Meg Evenstar

12-22-2005, 08:52 AM

I just want to comment on a few things from the posts before me.

1) Jill and family are fine today and serving in a small (35 members) country church in our old community. They stayed in the community (we left) and endured the rejection for five years. It was really tough on her. She had a physical breakdown and I was very worried about her health for a long time. Like me, she is not well, but she is much better today. The doctors were never able to find out what was wrong with her so the labeled it Fibromyalgia. I now wish we had stayed too, because it is true, all things pass with time.

2) The SBC is becoming more charismatic with each passing year. The SBC is program driven and they embrace every program that comes down the pike regardless of where it comes from. In a Life Way store you will find all of the Charismatic books out there. You will even find New Age books and the youth literature is filled with New Age. You will find that most of the SBC churches have become contemporary with rock and roll music so loud that you can't talk to the person next to you. We stand for the entire music service and there is a lot of emotional display. People will get in the spirit sometimes and fall in the floor laughing and crying all at the same time, though this occurs more with the youth.

The youth are encouraged to confess sin publicly and that is always whipped into a frenzy with the music and shouting and dancing (expressive worship). The kids have learned to give the adult leaders what they want to see and they have a good ole time with the display. Then as soon as the adults are not looking the kids are back to usual doing what they want to do. It's all a show. We can pat ourselves on the back and say "see what good boys and girls we all are". My teens are so turned off by all of this that they will have no part of it anymore.

3) Enochwar, what you are describing is the church as I see it in the SBC of today and I know you are not talking about the SBC as such, but it's the only church that I have any real knowledge of. Also from what I see as an outsider the other churches are no different. I felt very uncomfortable with the PDL book as well as the programs that went along with it. I can see how it would be beneficial for a new believer, but that's about it.

Well, family is calling to I need to wind this down.

Meg

ex-shep

12-22-2005, 09:22 AM

I have glanced at the posts. If it is not spiritual abuse and mind control, I do not know what is. I can have positive applications and it can be horridly negative as the posts have indicated.

What described reeks of shepherding. :eek:

Meg Evenstar

12-22-2005, 10:15 AM

Ex-shep, I think it is all the same. It has just grown and come into its own in the various forms that will make it saleable to all of the different groups and dominations, but the root is all the same. I have learned enough to know this is not from God, but the deceiver. The objective is to gain control of the church and make in ineffective, which I might add it is doing a very good job of. This is a feel good gospel, but not one of redemption. It is a fine line that the Christian walks. Step to the left and you're lost in a forest of feel good. Step to the right and you fall into the swamp of Fundamentalism. The Christian walk is not so easy. You have to rely on the ''true Holy Spirit'' to see you through so as to not be snared by the system.

This is how I see it, but I am still learning on my journey.

Meg

Reg

12-22-2005, 10:55 AM

yep, yep and more yep.

Businessman Peter Drucker(there goes that name dropping again) was one of Rick Warren's mentors.Warren and Drucker designed a plan with the concept of developing faith based charity organizations that PDC churns out....PDC is to benefit the greater good of society, including doing many things to supplement what the gov't and private sector had long been doing; some health care, counselling care,relief care, helping homeless..... Frees up alot of money otherwise spent on these things.

Rick Warrens principles are those that he believes will benefit the network of human relationships.Its humanistic.Its business. It's pragmatic. Makes us better citizens in our society. Cell groups help us to be more accountable and more controllable.

www.letusreason.org/Popteac24.htm

Eleanor
I read your link Eleanor about the growth of the Purpose Driven Church. Thanks. It gives me info and something to think about. I just want to look at this paragraph and make some (comments.)

“All this is fine in and of itself, advertising does work, and offering something new and different will attract a crowd. (And what is wrong with that? As long as the message is one of preaching the Gospel.) But the question we need to ask is “what are they attracted to?” Many are interested in just getting the people to the church for them to hear a spiritual message about God.

(And isn’t that what all of them do? I know I/we did that at our church in many of our Evangelism outreach ministries. Currently I help out with the Divorce Recovery one. It meets a need desperately needed in the community. Also, our Alpha course is excellent. We do as much advertising and publicity we can for people to be aware of it plus our other outreaches.)

Conducting surveys to determine a Church’s direction and mission is not God’s way. (It isn’t? How do they know? How often does the Bible say GO! to people ? ) Shouldn't the Holy Spirit be leading us in how to reach the people in our cities? Instead he has advertised his methodology and everyone is adopting it because they want to have the same success. (In today’s modern world, we have to adapt and change methods that are appropriate and effective. The method of how we reach people needs to change but THE MESSAGE never changes.)

Did the apostles market their message to the people they wanted to reach? Of course not. We should not forget the examples given to us from the ones who went before us found in the Bible. They did no gimmicry to attract a crowd.

(The apostles lived in a different place and time. If they were alive today, how do you think they would reach people? If they used the same methods back in the first century, how effective/wise would they be? Remember, they wouldn’t even use a telephone.)

When I get some more time, I’ll read the rest of the article and maybe make some more comments.

Merry Christmas to you all. Hopefully the New Year will be better than the last one for you all. :)

ex-shep

12-22-2005, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=Reg]I read your link Eleanor about the growth of the Purpose Driven Church. Thanks. It gives me info and something to think about. I just want to look at this paragraph and make some (comments.)

marketing surveys our church is guilty of too. Scripturally you have a point. I roll my eyes at some the gimickry too. I can also look at it as a form outreach. Just wanted to know you we are here and we would love to have you if you do not have a church home. Check us it. Some do. Some stay.

I can work and it can be an utter disaster as the posts have indicated. Great posts overall. Too bad I have to get ready for work.

Enochwar

12-22-2005, 11:43 AM

It is a fine line that the Christian walks. Step to the left and you're lost in a forest of feel good. Step to the right and you fall into the swamp of Fundamentalism. The Christian walk is not so easy. You have to rely on the ''true Holy Spirit'' to see you through so as to not be snared by the system.

This is how I see it, but I am still learning on my journey.

Meg

Thank you very much Meg Evenstar,

I've been so wound up in trying to "find the answer" and "figure out what's going on" I forgot the basics....Trust God...depend on the guidance of His Holy Spirit...

Thank you,

Enochwar, out and happy again! :D

Kerrin

12-23-2005, 12:32 AM

This just has not been the tradition of the Anglicans or the Baptists in the past- to get into all this 'demon frenzy'. [/B]I
It may not "appear " to be their history, but there are factions , for a while now, who are extremly secretive about their Healing Ministries and the teaching they promote.
To visit my old (Anglican ) Church, you would think nothing was amiss on a first visit!!
Just usual Hyms, sermon, communion etc.....Then watch out!!

KERRIN: "I often wonder Why, when in every other organisation there is a reporting mechanism with a clear line of authority with major accountability , yet the 'church' has none , and none is expected.........and, as in other organisations , the more responsibility the greater the consequences!
I guess they figure ,or justify it, as accountable to God only , but on their terms!!"

I think you are right Kerrin. When these people say that God is their only authority they take license to inflict the worst kind of abuse on people.They are so deceived and I believe full of the idea that THEY have had this discernment bestowed upon them by the Holy Spirit. How heady!

KERRIN:"AS far as the discernment of the chosen few to do what they do! It's just vouyeristic as far as I'm concerned! The more sordid details about your past they can "deliver' and 'sanctify' and "heal" you from........the more they want to know!!!!!!
At least , thats' how it was for me, downright humiliating to think that now my awful past , which I had kept under lock and key way down deep inside, is public knowledge in my local area.........*sigh*:(
( That's why I have been so transparent since coming here..........everone knows anyway, nothing left to hide)."

Yeah I think it is voyeuristic.Exactly! Its like some nasty person standing outside your window peeking around the blinds you have drawn, and getting their 'kicks' from it.Maybe that is really what the frenzy is about, complete with the heavy breathing. On some level these people know they are delving into forbidden-by God- territory. Spreading info around seems to generate lots of 'kicks ' for them as well.I feel dirty just talking about it.Meg's post about Jill is so similar to your story, Kerrin.
I am content for the moment to go to my dry, fundamentalist Church of Christ church with my mother and child. I just want to be able to say hello to a few nice people and to hear it back.Compared to what I have heard of here and what I experienced with the Demonbusters, this church is a breath of fresh air.At least they stay out of your business. Like I said, when I stop attending here someday- I doubt I wll venture into organized church again. What was I thinking????

AS I have said in my P.M Eleanor, I sought 'safe' refuge in the Anglican Church!
There was/is nothing safe about it ; all my local Churches , including our Church of Christ, Catholic Church, Uniting Church......are all using the same techniques under the guise of "Healing Ministry"........I know because I was one who was "trained ' for 'ministry' UNTIL I started to question!!
Then I became the filth polluting their healing team!!!!
So while the past 12 months has been incredibly lonely!
It's becoming more fun as I learn to actually "live" again!! (trying anyhow).
What still amazes me the power "they" have on the guilt arena.......enjoying life , good health , job, money etc..... I was taught , in a back handed way, is evil!!!
I can't fathom why it's taking me so long to de-programme from that:( :confused:
( I have just returned from another counselling session, and another promise, and resolve, to start being good to "Kerrin". I promise this New Year I WILL change into the old Kerrin, with the bad bits out I hope!! If that makes sense...........oh well, I know what I mean:o )

Just be careful , Eleanor.......
Continue to question everthing!
Love and blessings
Kerrin
P.S thanks for starting this thread , I didn't know the background on Warren , and his association with Drucker!!:eek:
( Anyone who "knows the saga of my 'angel" will know she gave me his book as a gift many months ago.........still haven't felt inclined to read it. I will , and maybe offer it back to her after the "Church" fiasco with her!!:eek: )

mountain

12-23-2005, 11:56 PM

ex-shep

12-24-2005, 12:45 AM

[QUOTE=mountain]This is one of the absolute best threads I have ever seen on the subject of finding a healthy church... It has been sometime since I have logged on and this thread decribes the problems of finding a healthy church to an absolute T...

I wonder if it is even possible...

Post may trigger. If it is too much, skip it for another day. It is perfectly OK to hit the delete key and walk away and rent a Marx Brothers Movie too. It is only one poster's thoughts. Take what you like and leave the rest.

No doubt it is tough. Once burned twice shy as the saying goes. The best advice I can give is pray about it, let go and let God and see what shakes out. If God's will and timing is perfect, then the right church will come at the right time.

I need several years to heal and to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was a lot of trial and error for me. Trying not to react and recoil was tricky for me. I can understand if a former member wants to hide under a rock or become a card carrying atheist.

What did help me when I was ready to go back to church was listening to local broadcasts of Sunday morning services on the radio and the internet. My wife and I sometimes would go out for a drive on a Sunday morning with the cats to listen to a broadcast. We did find two churches. One was shepherding and was hidden until the new members class. One Methodist church I heard on line appealed to me. We went to Christmas Eve Service and spoke with the staff and ushers for several hours. It was an open diverse congregation. Unfortunately they took a political position which my conscience was not going to let me get away with.

We were also visiting a church which 20 years ago was a militant shepherding group. Today it was far from it. It quietly clicked for us and we have been there. It does use both Warren and Willowcreek methodologies. I can take what I want and leave the rest. The rights and responsibiliities are straightforward and reasonable. I usually catch the Saturday night service which is devoted to expository teaching. The atmosphere is relaxed. There is a saying do not right with your left hand, meaning do not be forced into something that is not for you. There seems to be a sense of what needs to be done and everyone pitches in because they want to and get something out of it.

It took time for me to be comfortable with look at Scripture in context and to be able to pray. One question I grapple with in my walk with the Lord 20 years after my group and in a former shepherding group is how does one get it right this time. It sounds trite, but the best I can offer is one day at a time.

The sage advice is if you do not feel ready, then stay home until you are. Best wishes in this endeavor.

jetsled

12-24-2005, 01:21 PM

it's all just a fad if it doesn't connect your heart with your head.

otherwise it's just another "try harder to do/be right".

it's a journey, not a destination.

Rick Warren, Joel what's his name, Benny whoever, Joyce...whatever....they're just people.

we all need a saviour....

he's already come!!!

emmanuel.......

remember....when the Spirit of Christ comes into your life you have all things pertaining to life and godliness...

though the work he does through you may not be "mainstage" here on earth...it is and will be... for all eternity if it is done from pure motives...and no matter how large or how small...we will all celebrate it together and the Feast of the Lamb!!!

Have a blessed Christmas

mountain

12-24-2005, 11:28 PM

t's all just a fad if it doesn't connect your heart with your head.

Frame it and live by it....

The part about that you can not under estimate is God does seem to use these folks to reach folks even when the messenger is totally screwed up... That is the part I find the most amazing and that is why we cant shoot the messenger when we see the person first and the message as one that no longer moves us...

It just seems that God is saying it is time to move on while someone else is moving in... I agree it is a paradox but I did not make the rules...

...forunately for everyone else!!!

Merry Christmas!!!

Mtn

jjc9497

12-26-2005, 12:28 AM

Kerrin

12-26-2005, 03:18 AM

This is one of the absolute best threads I have ever seen on the subject of finding a healthy church... It has been sometime since I have logged on and this thread decribes the problems of finding a healthy church to an absolute T...

I wonder if it is even possible...

I do believe that we have to forgive daily in order to have hope and survive.... that might help in the quest for a church home.

Of course I have yet to be able to find a home myself.... But yet again it has been too long since I last tried. That I must confess is one of my greatest sins.

However, I have learned to find fellowship in most situations that I face in my daily walk although a church home where I am able to be comfortable and bare my soul would be the greatest blessing that I could ever ask for.

Merry Christmas.
Mtn

It has/is a great thread isn't it??
I didn't think there was anyone out there who had been through an abusive Church experience in a remotely similar way to me.

You know, all the courses , the same 'teaching" etc...
As for a Church home??????
It's as hard as finding a GOOD Doctor!!!
And that's diffficult!!!!!!!!
One can hope!:confused:

Daily Forgiveness? Yes , me too, often I find I have turned it into a mechanical process, as in I "choose" to forgive, and sit around waiting for God to 'fix' my heart!!!
I'm beginning to realise , that while It is a daily process for me to forgive, God does expect "something" of me too!!!
I'm just slow on the uptake I guess; and I don't know how He tolerates me.....but I have read He is a patient 'man';) .
Love
Kerrin;)

ex-shep

12-26-2005, 10:39 PM

Just thinking out loud............................

God uses sinful people to do His work.

Pastors and public speakers are sinful people (some more-so than others)

So am I.

I have seen God use sinful people to declare His message and the message was used by God to change, heal and save people. In fact, God ONLY uses sinful people since Christ was the only perfect human.

Therefore, God can use a sinful person (whether a pastor or even little ol' me) to deliver His message and help others.

Therefore, a pastor who has hurt me may have greatly helped another.

Since I am also sinful, I have probably hurt others as well as helped some.

As long as someone is not shoving it down my throat, I am free to take the good from their message and ignore the rest, as no one will ever deliver a perfect message all the time.

I don't know--guess I'm just so tired of it all.

At least in heaven, we will all be on the same page.

Dead on accurate. Some days we are powerless over people places and things. That is my feeling on the church I attend today. It may be PDC, it has its days, but like it. I feel the same at work even around the denial with Ms Witchy Poo. I still like the product I represent, I enjoy my customers, and have usually good relationship with my co-workers. I guess I will say two Serenity Prayers and call my sponsor in the morning.

mountain

12-27-2005, 12:08 AM

Daily Forgiveness? Yes , me too, often I find I have turned it into a mechanical process, as in I "choose" to forgive, and sit around waiting for God to 'fix' my heart!!!
I'm beginning to realise , that while It is a daily process for me to forgive, God does expect "something" of me too!!!
I'm just slow on the uptake I guess; and I don't know how He tolerates me.....but I have read He is a patient 'man'

You got it Kerin... go girl.... Good to see you are doing so well.

Forgiveness is really the absolute key... it is amazing how hard it really is to forgive others and even harder at times to forgive ourselves...

I confess depression is one of my winter vices and I know if I could just imagine for one second what forgiveness really is, I would be cured.

God tolerates us all.... and He is here to meet us where we are to help us take that next step in forgiving others as well as ourselves.

And all we have to do is ask.

I got a new Randy Travis CD this week called Glory Train.... It is fantastic !!! I have been on a high all day listening to it especially "Here I am to Worship"...

For me in the middle of the winter, a high is a great thing...

Kerrin

12-27-2005, 12:32 AM

;) Mountain, I hear ya!!
And a beautiful song too, have you heard Darlene Zschech sing it??? WOW!!
She is AWESOME; an Aussie of course!
Love and enjoy the moment.......( I hope it turns into much longer than a winter 'blues'......I am NOT looking forward to, as I sit here in sweltering 35 plus degree heat. ( I say sweltering 'cos we have no air con; and I miss that after a lifetime of that luxury!! I still prefer the sun over the winter , no matter how hot it gets!!)

( My dream of moving to Queensland will eventuate ONE day , I know!)

At least in heaven, we will all be on the same page jjc4947.
And won't "That" be great???:D

And Shep? I have to deal head on with witchy - Poo tomorrow!! Hope it doesn't get too ugly, and I can remember I am a christian whatever 'that' means:confused: :(
Much love
Kerrin;)

mountain

12-28-2005, 08:45 PM

Mountain, I hear ya!!
And a beautiful song too, have you heard Darlene Zschech sing it??? WOW!!
She is AWESOME; an Aussie of course!

Darlene is the best... I agree.

We are bluegrass fans so Randy's CD suits us in more than just vocals...

Yes I am aware Darlene is from down under... Hope you have seen her. She has revolutionized Christian music.... I like lots of her stuff.

This Abuse Forum is a busy place now....

mtn

Enochwar

12-28-2005, 11:58 PM

Just thinking out loud............................

God uses sinful people to do His work.

Pastors and public speakers are sinful people (some more-so than others)

So am I.

I have seen God use sinful people to declare His message and the message was used by God to change, heal and save people. In fact, God ONLY uses sinful people since Christ was the only perfect human.

Therefore, God can use a sinful person (whether a pastor or even little ol' me) to deliver His message and help others.

Therefore, a pastor who has hurt me may have greatly helped another.

Since I am also sinful, I have probably hurt others as well as helped some.

As long as someone is not shoving it down my throat, I am free to take the good from their message and ignore the rest, as no one will ever deliver a perfect message all the time.

I don't know--guess I'm just so tired of it all.

At least in heaven, we will all be on the same page.

Thank you jjc9497! :)

Along with ex-shep's quote "I still like the product I represent, I enjoy my customers, and have usually good relationship with my co-workers. "

You have helped and encouraged me greatly.

Enochwar, out :D

Willow

12-29-2005, 04:06 AM

Yes I am aware Darlene is from down under... Hope you have seen her. She has revolutionized Christian music.... I like lots of her stuff.

I remember when I first began introducing some of Darlene's music into our worship program. Pastor sneered and said, "Oh... it's that WOMAN worship leader". Something about women in any visible position he hated... I'm not sure why I didn't pick up on it earlier than I did... There I was filling a need for a worship leader, but not allowed to look like I was leading. What an awkward set-up. I would lead the musicians and the pastor from behind while he led the congregation and "looked" like he was leading all the musicians. It was like a three-headed beast. My words to him once were, "why not just hire a music director you can trust and let them lead?" His response? "Because creative people are flakey... besides, I like to be up front with my wife by my side."

:cool:

jane

12-29-2005, 06:16 AM

His response? "Because creative people are flakey... besides, I like to be up front with my wife by my side."

well that is an interesting view :eek:

what does he think God did those first 6 days of creation?

maybe, the pastor is right, creative people are flakey- afterall God created that man, what was God thinking in those moments:eek:

Honestly I always saw creative people having some of the best attributes of God's character....creativity is what sets us apart from the animal kingdom- you don't see a dog creating a picaso?

geez, talk about the need to control to the point where they kill life!

mountain

12-29-2005, 09:02 AM

His response? "Because creative people are flakey... besides, I like to be up front with my wife by my side."

I'd rather be creative and flakey then stagnate and boring anyday...

Lots of men in power have significant ego issues and are emotionally blinded to how their actions are perceived by others.... They are just in the rush of basic instinct to control and conquer....

The best thing to do is to observe, identify, avoid, and say pray those words...

"..Father forgive them for they know not what they do..."

Confrontation of a grizzly bear on the way to his supper usually results in significant pain...

mtn

Kerrin

12-29-2005, 12:09 PM

Darlene flakey eh???? (just picking up on what mtn said of his experience re: creative people /women ,one of which I am not, being 'flakey'.....)
Obviously haven't seen her work or being interviewed!!!!!
She has a "Mercy Ministries" programme, established many years ago with her husband for women escaping abuse. (Glory Jeans support the amazingingly built shelters, (so much thought and love has gone into this programme !!), with a portion of their profits............ She has a particular passion for Women in (any), abusive, drug addicted , violent, or other, circumstance.
She has been pursued relentlessly by BIG music companies because of her extraordinary voice, writing , passion etc.....she , as I watched a T.V current affairs interveiwer try to tear her apart for being "christian", was humble, and showed great dignity and integrity, taking no credit at all for herself, but rather was uncomfortable with the attention.......
All she stated was she wanted to share the gift God gave her , she had no intention of making making out of it.
(I don't necessarily agree with her Church and it's subsequent 'plants' here in Melbourne, which I have attended....).
It is, when, singing she is most powerful, and her worship C.D's often help me get to sleep..........
I wish I were half the woman she is!!
(It would be great to be remotely creative too).

Sorry, lack of sleep......rambling,
Kerrin

mountain

12-29-2005, 08:17 PM

Darlene flakey eh???? (just picking up on what mtn said of his experience re: creative people /women ,one of which I am not, being 'flakey'.....)
Obviously haven't seen her work or being interviewed!!!!!

no..no.. not my experience...

We all think Darlene is tops....

My remarks were relative to Willow's post and a narrow-minded ego starved male worship leader she knew...

mtn

Kerrin

12-30-2005, 12:15 AM

no , no mtn, I knew I worded that ALL wrong!
Sorry I DID "hear" you, I was just reminded of the really hard time she has been given in the media for well, being a christian , (as in no dirt can be found), and not interested in the fact that she's won a grammy, and sold more CD's than Madonna....which , when pointed out to her she said, "Yeah??, how cool is that?" and changed the subject!
Incidently , I just bought her new solo C.D, was listening to it in the car all day, and, as I don't want to be seen to be advertising anything......if anyone would like her website, it's www.mercyministries.com.au

Again, apologies for not making myself clear; and from detracting from the thread......carry on.....:o ;)
Love
Kerrin

mountain

12-31-2005, 11:06 PM

Kerrin

01-01-2006, 01:22 AM

Thanks Kerrin...

You know me... I worry at times when it can be perceived that I'm stirring the pot a bit...

This time I wasnt (finally) and just wanted to be sure you understood...

I need to check out that CD... a solo Darlene CD would be a nice thing to have....

and I am glad she has stayed on the high-road... that is especially not easy in her position...

Happy New Year...

mtn

No worries!!!
Happy New Year to you too ,mate....;)

fwiw: I have been driving around most of the week listening to this C,D , and she , (Darlene), sings like an angel......I'm sure it must be close......anyway..;)
Love
Kerrin

Reg

01-18-2007, 03:54 PM

yep, yep and more yep.

snip

Rick Warrens principles are those that he believes will benefit the network of human relationships.Its humanistic.Its business. It's pragmatic. Makes us better citizens in our society. Cell groups help us to be more accountable and more controllable.

www.letusreason.org/Popteac24.htm

Eleanor
We sort of got off track on this one.

Thanks for this link Eleanor. Just getting some time to go through it. Here is the part I want to
emphasize.

Should the mega church model be the standard for the 21st century church?

Frustrated by the lack of growth people want to get in on what God is now doing. We need to ask
ourselves the question: are mega churches the answer, or are smaller churches placed everywhere
a better and more accurate model.

Interpretation is by perception and our perception is being transformed by the new paradigm. Big
churches are now considered good and blessed, small churches are not. Consider the first century
church that met in households with certainly less than 100 people gathered, (more like 50). A
century ago most churches contained 100 members and everyone in the community knew each
other and were personally involved in their lives. Isn’t this what Warren means by being involved
in the community we live in. I remember reading Jesus mentioning the words remnant, little
flock, not mega-church. Although he did give the example of the mustard seed (the church)
growing tremendously and all the birds of the air found shelter in it “but when it is grown it is
greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its
branches.” (Matt 13:32) we later find the bird’s are not a good thing. something to consider if we
are trying to make mature believers to be in ministry.
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac24.htm

And then I read this.....

God Works in the Individual, Not through Organization
I realize this is a bit of the conspiracy theory so take what you want and leave the rest.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb970226.htm

My paradigm is being modified.

exwitchoz

01-19-2007, 05:15 AM

Ok I've come into this discussion quite late and rather than wade thru all 8 pages of this thread can someone give me a quick run down on what's wrong with Rick Warren or a link or two that spell it out fairly succinctly...

Jerry

01-19-2007, 05:22 AM

exwitchoz

01-19-2007, 05:43 AM

Hey Ex ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just Google Rick Warren Tactics

Thanx Jerry :)

*Best Yoda Voice* Much to think on this give me... much to think on... :eek:

Seems the Lord works in mysterious ways... After three years at a Church in the next town that has helped me ENORMOUSLY they are all getting into Rick Warren... at the same time my car has died and I do not have the means to fix it for several weeks at least and am relying on my bicycle to get around and therefore have found myself in the position of "shopping for a church" again that is within cycling distance...

*Best Yoda Voice* A reason for everything... for everything a reason... :rolleyes:

Thanx Jerry... :)

Carmen

01-19-2007, 10:19 AM

exwitchoz

01-19-2007, 10:50 AM

*Best Yoda Voice* Another book to read it seems I must now procure - once Neil Anderson has been thoroughly marked with my highlighter... *rubs temples* So many articles and updates for my site must I make... Oi Vey! Not easy being green it is ... Where is Young Skywalker when an extra pair of hands I need... Now this I ask you... :rolleyes:

*normal transmission is now resumed*

Thanx Carmen...

That article seems to answer everything I was asking about (whether I verbalized it or not)... It explains a LOT :)

Reg

01-19-2007, 01:30 PM

exwitchoz,

Here is a link to IMO a well-balanced article about the PDC, it addresses some doctrine Warren promotes in that book.

http://www.9marks.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID598026%7CCIID1918134,00.html

(best Yoda voice) Understanding you may find there, yeees. ;)
Thank you so much for this link Carmen. Here are some quotes I want to focus on.
I want to make a few comments about them. (Emphasis mine)

3. The Purpose Driven model interprets 1Cor 14:23 as a mandate for seeker sensitivity in
worship.
.....Also, the specific issue in 1Cor 14:23 is translation, not idiom or worldview, as Warren
applies it. Paul has already told the Corinthians that the Gospel will seem foolish to unbelievers
no matter how we present it (1Cor 1:18; 2:14). They need more than sensitivity to see the gospel
as attractive – they need the Spirit.

4. The Purpose Driven model cites 1Cor 10:32 as proof of Paul’s seeker sensitivity.
.......Warren is right to see the context as having implications for evangelism (v33 “so that they
may be saved”). But the passage is not addressing how a preacher should get the gospel across in
corporate worship; it is addressing how a Christian should live the gospel to the glory of God in
all of life (v31). Paul wants seeker-sensitive lives, not seeker-sensitive services.

5. The Purpose Driven model cites Luke 5:38 (new wineskins for new wine) as proof that new
generations require new ministry methods (p121).
........His physical presence was a time for feasting, not fasting (v35). That is the point that the
image illustrates – not the need for new ministry methods as each new generation rises. In short,
the hermeneutic often overlooks context and comes away with a different point than the
one the text makes.

B. Methodological Difficulties
1. Only the Gospel Has Driving Power for the Church.
........Isaiah teaches not only that God’s word accomplishes God’s purposes, but also that God
Himself distinguishes between His word and His purposes, such that the two cannot be equated.
The New Testament specifies that driving power for the church is only available in God’s word
as we find it in the gospel. Paul is “not ashamed of the gospel of Christ [precisely] because it is
the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (Romans 1:16; cf. 1Cor 1:18; James
1:18, 21; 1Pet 1:23-25).

The purposes that Warren highlights are altogether biblical, but they do not have driving power
for the church. God’s Word is what provides driving power for His purposes. We do not need
more purpose driven churches. We need more gospel driven churches.

2. Method and Message are Biblically Inseparable.
........“I’m in favor of any method that reaches at least one person for Christ – as long as it is
ethical…. We should never criticize any method that God is blessing” (p156, cf. p62). But what
then is the standard for effectiveness or blessing? It is the number of people apparently reached?
Do numbers measure evangelistic and ministerial success? (Added Do & ? for clarity)

The model tells the pastor not to concentrate on numerical growth, but on purpose (p394). Yet
numerical growth is exactly what the seeker service is designed to promote.......

And have we forgotten about the function of the preached gospel as that which hardens
recalcitrant men and women in their refusal to repent (2Cor 2:15-16)? Faithfulness is the
measure of the minister, not numerical results.

(Right here lies the basic problem as I see it. The key word is repentance. What kind of ground
does the seed of the Gospel message fall on? Is there real repentance when the methods are
changed?)

4. The Evangelistic Method of the Seeker-Sensitive Model.
.......We find Jesus preaching the necessity of repentance and belief right from the outset of His
ministry (Mark 1:14-15), and He demands that the rich young ruler part with his possessions on
their first encounter (Mt 19:16-26). Jesus preached a message of cost and cross (Mt 16:24; Mark
8:34-38; Mark 10:17-27), not just a gospel of prosperity and blessing.

(Acts 6:7; cf. 13:24; 19:20). We are called to simply and clearly preach the gospel, and to call
people to genuine repentance from their sins and belief in Christ for forgiveness.

But doing evangelism the way Warren suggests here poses sobering difficulties.

a. It obscures the gospel
...........Warren is suggesting we present only the benefits, whereas true gospel preaching includes
the demand of repentance (Mark 1:14-15).............Christianity actually requires a lifetime of
continual repentance from sin.

b. It leads to false assurance
...........If unbelievers have not been clearly urged to repent and believe, then they do not know
how to respond properly to the gospel, and are therefore “still in their sins” (1Cor 15:17). No one
becomes a disciple without taking up the cross of self-denial.

c. It misunderstands man’s inability and God’s sovereignty in conversion. The assumption
that “anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart” (p220) fails to
recognize either the inability of the natural man to understand the gospel of grace, or the
sovereignty of God in dispensing that saving grace. The gospel is such foolishness to unbelievers
that only the Spirit can make it look attractive to them (1Cor 1:18; 2:14), and the Father
Himself is sovereign in giving to the Son those whom He intends to save (John 8:43-47;
10:26-29). It simply cannot be true, then, that anyone can be won to Christ if you discover the
key to his heart. Allowing this assumption to drive our evangelistic methods is actually to depend
on manipulation to convert people, which we are sure is not Warren’s intention.

(Right here this scripture needs to be inserted).
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up
at the last day.

6. Conversion and the Seeker Sensitive Service.
The Purpose Driven model raises problems for the doctrine and experience of Christian
conversion. “Making a service comfortable for the un-churched doesn’t mean changing your
theology, it means changing the environment of the service” (p244). But comfort is the least of
the unbeliever’s spiritual needs. He needs to feel uncomfortable in his sins in order to repent
and believe in the gospel. Repentance never happens comfortably – and yet it is precisely
the response that the gospel unbendingly requires. Comfort is the very thing that must be
overcome in order for conversion to take place. This is why an evangelistic service cannot be at
the same time comfortable for unbelievers and faithful to the message we’ve been given to share
with them – because part and parcel of the gospel message is the requirement of repentance.
What this means, however, is that making a service comfortable for the unchurched does mean
changing your theology – it means changing your theology of conversion. If you’ve made the
service so comfortable for the unbeliever by gearing it to meet his every felt need that
repentance from his sins is the last thing on his mind, then your theology must change to
allow for conversion by some response other than repentance and belief.

(Right here is the essence of it. What kind of Christian is the seeker-sensitive convert? How can
there be real conversion without real repentance? This is one of the most significant problem
areas I see.)

Conclusion:
......While his evangelistic zeal is exemplary, his evangelistic methods tend to make genuine
repentance unlikely and can have the effect of rounding off the naturally sharp edges of the
Gospel.

see WHAT PART DOES REPENTANCE HAVE IN SALVATION? to follow.

Reg

01-19-2007, 01:36 PM

Continued from below......

WHAT PART DOES REPENTANCE HAVE IN SALVATION?

"Conversion is our willing response to the gospel call, in which we sincerely repent of sins and
place our trust in Christ for salvation."

"Repentance is a heart felt sorrow for sin, a renouncing of it, and a sincere commitment to
forsake it and walk in obedience to Christ".

"...the person who genuinely turns to Christ for salvation must at the same time release the sin
to which he or she has been clinging and turn away from that sin in order to turn to Christ.
Thus, neither repentance nor faith comes first; they must both come together."

"Therefore, it is clearly contrary to the New Testament evidence to speak about the possibility
of having true saving faith without having any repentance for sin. It is also contrary to the New
Testament to speak about the possibility of someone accepting Christ "as Savior" but not "as
Lord," if that means simply depending on him for salvation but not committing oneself to
forsake sin and to be obedient to Christ from that point on."

John MacArthur, in his book, "The Gospel According to Jesus", argued convincingly from
many New Testament passages that one cannot truly accept Christ as Savior without also
accepting him as Lord, or, in other words, there can be no true saving faith without genuine
repentance as well. He said that any other view preaches a cheap gospel that offers
unconverted people false security, telling them they are saved simply because they agreed
that the facts of the gospel were true or prayed a prayer, but they had no true repentance and
no true change of life. MacArthur argued that such unbiblical evangelism has never been the
teaching of the church through history, and that the weakened gospel heard so often today
has resulted in a whole generation of processing Christians whose lives are no different from
the surrounding culture and who are not really saved at all."

"It is misleading to brand this teaching as "Lordship salvation" as if it were some new doctrine,
or as if there were any other kind of salvation --
MacArthur is teaching what has been the historic position of Christian orthodoxy on this
matter.." "This position is not salvation by works, but simply states the gospel of _free_ grace,
and salvation by grace through faith in all its biblical fullness.The change of life that will
result from genuine conversion does not save us, but it will certainly result if our faith is
genuine, for "faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (James 2:17)."

When we realize that genuine saving faith must be accompanied by genuine repentance for
sin, it helps us to understand why some preaching of the gospel has such inadequate results
today. If there is no mention of the need for repentance, sometimes the gospel message
becomes only, "Believe in Jesus Christ and be saved" without any mention of repentance at
all. But this watered-down version of the gospel does not ask for a wholehearted commitment
to Christ .. [because] if genuine must include a commitment to turn _from sin_. Preaching the
need for faith without repentance is preaching only half of the gospel."

"Both faith and repentance continue throughout life. Each day there should be heartfelt
repentance from sins that we have committed, and faith in Christ to provide for our needs and
to empower us to live the Christian life."

Quotes excerpted from Grudem's Systematic Theology book pages 709-717, Chapter 35
"Conversion (Faith and Repentance).

Carmen

01-21-2007, 07:11 AM

Thanks for the highlights, Reg. :)

I think that for adults, the faith and repentance will probably come together. From my own perspective, I first had faith at about 10 years of age, I was conscious of knowing that I would never be good enough on my own, needed Jesus Christ, and said "yes" to the gospel. I did not have a deep sense of sorrow for past sins at that time, wasn't on the floor crying my eyes out. A deeper sense of repentance came later as I learned more about the concept. Child conversion is unfortunately something that the bible doesn't address, but I think that such conversions are also valid. In my case the conversion was not "followed up" and I had to wait about three years without any instruction or growth until my parents believed and while learning themselves started to teach me. We blundered into some really wacky churches in those days, oooeee! It took me years before I got away from that charismatic and popular stuff. Before my parents believed I didn't even know that one should read scripture, those that played a key role in my conversion didn't bother to tell me or take any measures to teach me. I find the bible to be a good guide to adult conversion, but think that child conversion comes too short.

Also, I think that even in adult conversion repentance may not be immediate - a full sense of wrong and filth - but that it will eventually seem necessary to the true believer that is already indwelled with the Holy Spirit. I think that just belief in the gospel (initiated by God upon hearing of the gospel, confession of belief, and the sealing with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) is enough to start out with. I believed, I said one word, "Yes," and the Holy Spirit indwelled me at that moment. That was it. I think that when telling the gospel one should teach of repentance, but the concept may not be clear to everyone from the start, even those that have believed and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, perhaps even adults. I think that teaching on repentance should not be left out of any basic or advanced Christian teaching, that every Christian that has reached a certain level of spiritual and personal maturity will understand and repent in the full sense, but until then one should not pressure them to do something they may not fully understand, belief in the gospel will be enough. Full and immediate repentance is not "the" sign of conversion, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God's seal, upon belief of the gospel is. Just my opinion and experience.

Reg

01-22-2007, 09:42 AM

Very well put Carmen.

Yes, it is a process. The HS will convict a person to repent. He is gentle and will not guilt-trip an individual. A heart felt conviction will lead to repentance.

ex-shep

01-22-2007, 10:17 PM

Do numbers measure evangelistic and ministerial success?

Faithfulness is the
measure of the minister, not numerical results.

In light of what is going on in the church I left, truer words cannot be spoken. The church was hung up on numbers. One staff person panicked when attendance was off. I looked at the small group pastor, "could it be that maybe the Lord is stopping things to examine ourselves" Christianity is not a numbers game. I about gagged last year when I received a prayer letter from one of the national directors of the association praying that the denomination reach a billion members. "Oh, great!!! We are having enough trouble with our churches and now we want a beaurocracy?!!" After my emotions settled, I prayed, "Lord, you have the last word on the numers, I am sure your Holy Spirit can do a far better job".

I think the crisis may revolve around not enough numbers.

hoipoloi

01-26-2007, 01:50 AM

Hey Ex ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just Google Rick Warren Tactics

Just to recap my background:

My wife and I attend a CE church in which I have been SAed, but I still attend in support of my wife.

It was Jerry, in my last thread, who pointed out that the changes at my church were Rick Warren PDC, for which I am very grateful.

On Googling the Rick Warren Tactics as suggested above, I found that this EXACTLY mirrors my experience within the last 2 years. Again, much thanks.

I am still very very angry about this -- more angry with myself for being so foolishly conned. I must gather my thoughts carefully and calmly, and then I will tell you the details of my church in this last year -- but I'm too angry to do this now.

Of course, I will be careful and do this anonymously because church life nowadays is a minefield.

:mad:

Jerry

01-26-2007, 05:01 AM

I am still very very angry about this -- more angry with myself for being so foolishly conned.

Dear hoipoloi,,,,
Hey if it makes ya feel any better,,,,,you sure ain't the first one conned by those maggots ;) Remember Christ said to pick up your cross,,,,,,He didn't say you had to carry someone elses :D
Love Jerry

ex-shep

01-27-2007, 09:37 PM

ex-shep

01-27-2007, 09:47 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention....
The Prayer Meeting was replaced with "Discovery Classes"......They changed their minds again and brought back prayer meeting...go figure...if it ain't broke...:cool:
PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK!:eek:

And they call me crazy..HA:p

E.......out

It does remind me of two memos at two different colleges. There was summer term which was called "Fifth Mod". The administration tried to changed it. I am not sure why all the paper was wasted, but did I receive a memo, "After careful considersation Fifth Mod will now be named Fifth Mod"

I liked in the item in The Post [Ohio University] that the Home Ec will now be named Home Ec. They were going to name it School for Domestic Sciences, but the reference to SDS being too close to the radical Students for a Democratic Society was too unnerving. Memories of the 1970 riot which closed the university.

Dad was right, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." :D

Reg

07-22-2010, 06:27 AM

Here's a bit more on this.

The Seeker-Friendly Way of Doing Church
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/2587

hoipoloi

08-13-2010, 12:47 AM

I've just typed a long article about where my own church has arrived at in Rick Warren's scheme, but lost it all.

This is just a test to see if everything is working.

hoipoloi

08-13-2010, 01:01 AM

I think I'll do this in short sections.

CofE, north of England.

About 7 years ago my church started a building scheme in the Rick Warren philosophy. Word got around the village that there was going to be a building project, so "it must be a growing church, we must join". The main service was made into a drums and guitar show where newcomers came for the cheap (even free) entertainment. They were propagandized through the Alpha Course to support and vote for the scheme. They did not contribute much towards the finances, or even to the other social activities of the church. This was left to the older members, many of which did not want the project in the first place.

Grants were applied for, many of which were rejected. Old funds which had been used to maintain the church were plundered for the project. Intense emotional blackmail was used against the old members, while the newcomers were given enormous privileges of favouritism.

My own view is that the building project (now called the "Church Hall" after spending lots of money for advice from PR people) is a thing of sheer vanity: the big-shots wanting to be big-shots of a big-shot church.

hoipoloi

08-13-2010, 01:14 AM

CofE North of England -- Rick Warren Ponzi Scheme Building Project (2)

The building started in 2010, despite the fact that there was not enough money. The vicar said that, after the Gidt Day, the first dig would happen if we had contributed X thousand pounds. The real amount was half of this, but the work went ahead anyway. The vicar can now put on his CV that he took the church into a new project -- he will soon be on Sabbatical, and,after a year or two I guess he may move on, leaving the debt to the congregation. My guess is that when he leaves the newcomers will also leave, their use having been finished.

The drains are being installed, and soon the steel frame made. All without the full money being in place. And we are in recession times -- how is the rest going to be raised?

Take note anyone who is in a church where the intention is in this directing. Get organised so the big-shots cannot scapegoat an individual.

hoipoloi

08-13-2010, 01:29 AM

CofE Rick Warren Building Project (3)

The reputation of the church is that it is a "Growing Church", but after the original boost it really hasn't grown much. And yet the whole thing is Talked Up (or as Tony Blair would have said, "Sexed Up"). Any doubts have the finger pointed, exclusion and marginalising practises occuring.

But it still has to be paid for.

And those who have evangelised this process will have left by the time the real debts begin to bite. The diocese inputted two older clergy in to help the control. This is a village church with 4 clergy, 2 readers, 1 deaconess and a business consultant who appeared from nowhere. The clergy and the consultant will certainly leave before the crunch.

Who will pay? The diocese?

There is a promise of a near-zero-interest loan, but only if the church pays its Share to the diocese. The church has not even got the money for this. Perhaps rob the Project Fund to pay the Share? Such creative accounting is the sign of Ponzi Scheme.

So again, make sure you get organised if you want to avoid church debts from Purpose Driven Projects.

hoipoloi

08-13-2010, 01:35 AM

Apologies for many typos.

I will give further data about the manipulations as they occur, and when I remember them.

Again, to avoid scapegoating:

ORGANISE --ORGANISED -- ORGANISE.

hoipoloi

01-16-2011, 06:48 AM

Not that anyone's interested after such a long time, but to get up-to-date:

Recap:

My church embarcked on a Rick Warren style building extension some years ago. Objectors were scapegoated in the classic spiritual-abusive process.

The building started last year (2010), without all the money being in place for its payment. The vicar went on sabbatical in November 2010, probably to activate his contacts for future position.

Today (16 Jan 2011) he announced that he is leaving after Easter to take up a position in Oxford.

Leaving the congregation with a huge debt to service and an incomplete building. Just as predicted. No doubt the objectors will be spiritually-abused, as before.

Lesson: any church planning a Rick Warren style building extension as a project artificially to increase congregation numbers would do well to look into the pitfalls before committing themselves to a process where spiritual abuse is likely to be the outcome.

Big-shots want to be Big-shots of a Big-shot church, with others paying the price. It's a matter of Vanity. A classic confidence trick. Remember: cui bono; who benefits?

:(

hoipoloi

01-16-2011, 06:51 AM

And once again, my advice for those who are spiritually abused:

Leave -- leave -- leave.

You have nothing to gain but your freedom.

hoipoloi

03-23-2011, 02:28 AM

The Red-Letter Day for some of us is 10 April 2011, the last Sunday that the vicar will be with us before taking up a position in elsewhere.
He has brought an extreme version of Christianity to the church, and left us with a huge debt. It has been a cult of personality with himself as Leader. It has been a church of First- and Second-Class citizens. His favourites will keep on expecting their privileges and entitlements, and they will probably leave when these are not forthcoming.
We will be left, not only with debt, but social chaos. I hope that things will settle down quickly and without rancour, so that God's love may blossom here again.
The lesson for us all is to be very careful about Purpose Driven churches where the Holy Spirit is redefined as that which motivates the Leader's plans for his own reputation. IMO this has been a church of the Temple Forecourt with its den of thieves. I believe that business men within this church have used the situation to enhance their own reputation, and build a network of business contacts within the diocese and beyond, to maximise their profit margins. If I am right then to keep the show on the road the congregation has been conned into giving money for the building project which has been used to increase the reputation of this church, covertly as a business men centre, paid by others.
Maybe it has been a classic confidence trick: "I have given you my confidence by saying that the Holy Spirit is working here in specially choosing you for the building of this project. You must now give this church money to pay for my impressive CV and the business profits of those whom I serve." Classic!
Have other Christian traditions got social networks that business men use purely as contact centres, paid for by hoi polloi like myself?
Must we crucify Christ yet again?
:confused: