Frogivness posted for Eleanor

[Jerry]

Dear Eleanor,,,
You referanced Matt 18 Vs 21-35 in a recent post.I suspect that you have been given the idea that Forgivness = Reconcileation,,,this is not true. Matt 18 Vs 15-17 would appear to be in conflict with verses 21-35 That is because Vs 15 -17 are about "Reconciliation" which takes place if at all,in the "Flesh",and have nothing to do with forgivness........In verse 35 on the other hand we find the phrase "from his heart" .....This is a very old Hebrew Idium that always means in your Spirit.....So you can see that there is clearly a difference. We see that while we are required to forgive,,,,we are not required to Reconcile,,,compair vs 17 with vs 35 ;)
There is a deeper significance to vs 21-35 not to do with your question but I would be remiss in not mentioning.Verse 22 is a direct responce to a Satanic curse pronounced by Lamech a son of "Cain".Christ forgives here 10 times more than Satan Curses.....Ten in Biblical Numerics is the number of "Ordinal Perfection"(another new first) Compair Gen 4 vs 22-24 and Matt 18 vs 22-23 :eek:
I pray this helps kiddo....
Love Jerry

[Eleanor]

Thanks, Jerry;

I know I am commanded to forgive, just as God forgives my sins when I repent of them. How can I withold that from someone else when I have been forgiven so much?

I understand about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation better now.I know I am not capable right now of absorbing all that has been said and done in my situation(thread under 'dysfunctional families and spiritual abuse') and not feel the human emotions I have of anger, shock, hurt, deep sadness, loss, and anguish.

It has all just come together this last year- all the pieces of the puzzle I was in denial about for so long. I don't WANT people I love and care about to BE this way!! Immature of me I know; I just thought they reciprocated my feelings for them.

It is useless I think to go and talk to my sister again as is cited in Matthew 18; all she does is take everything I say and do and report to her discipler and they 'verify' to her and for her that I am full of different kinds of demons, delusional, unforgiving...Well what can you expect of someone who is as 'abusive' as I am? Oh yes, I also have the demon spirit of 'religion'. I Iooked it up on the net yesterday and it means to be like the Pharisees...believing that works are all that gets you into heaven...My mouth just hangs open regarding these folks.

I guess my begging her to talk to a counsellor ( and a Christian counsellor at that) counts as my trying to bring someone else in the picture to discuss all that has been said and done as Matt. 18 says. She refuses to do that so..I don't think there is anything else to do.

She may be in a dysfunctional group but she is the one who has fed them all the info they have about my daughter and I and this includes some outright lies.

I am willing to forgive but God will have to deal with my heart about it . This is just out of my league.

Thanks for the input.
Eleanor

[Jerry]

Dear Eleanor,,,,,
We call it time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because all the other four letter words were taken ;)
Love Jerry

[Eleanor]

Forgive me, Jerry; I am not sure I understand your last post. So you mean that I will learn to forgive in time, or that time will heal?

Eleanor

[jane]

This is a GREAT THREAD! so many of us christians allow abuse to continue because we misunderstand what forgiveness means and we go on to allow abuse to occur.

I have a few thoughts that I have posted previously so old timers please bear with me.

One: Jesus STOPPED the woman who was sinning from being stoned to death ! He would by his character NEVER allow you, a child of his, to be abused.....HE DIED FOR YOU! The only time he attacked people by my observations is the leaders of the day who tormented the people. He told them to stop!

TWO: I read an interpretation of Martin Luther King ..... he said that he led the civil rights movement because the HOLY SPIRIT showed him some truth about scriptures;

ie; If someone else strikes you, turn the other cheek. He discovered that the culture of the day there was roman law. A roman could not strick someone with the other hand because that hand was used for tolieting.....If someone struck you on the "other cheek" they would be found guilty of breaking the law.........

(different than what I was taught!)

and; If someone takes your coat, give him your other cloak----

In those days it was a sin to VIEW someone naked (remember Noah's son?)...so to give them your second under garment left you naked for them to see---- leaving THEM a lawbreaker!


and; If someone tells you to walk a mile, go two with them-
SAME THING! They were allowed to make you only go one mile, more than that would render them a law breaker.....


THUS MARTIN LUTHER LED A PEACEFUL REVOLT BASED ON THESE TRUTHS!

Now, I grew up to believe that as a christian we were to give give give to people that were taking,

let them beat us more in the name of LOVE

and do DOUBLE the labor of our task masters!


HMMMMM!

LOVE<
jane

[Hope 98]

This is a GREAT THREAD!
<snip>
TWO: I read an interpretation of Martin Luther King ..... he said that he led the civil rights movement because the HOLY SPIRIT showed him some truth about scriptures;

ie; If someone else strikes you, turn the other cheek. He discovered that the culture of the day there was roman law. A roman could not strick someone with the other hand because that hand was used for tolieting.....If someone struck you on the "other cheek" they would be found guilty of breaking the law.........

(different than what I was taught!)

and; If someone takes your coat, give him your other cloak----

In those days it was a sin to VIEW someone naked (remember Noah's son?)...so to give them your second under garment left you naked for them to see---- leaving THEM a lawbreaker!


and; If someone tells you to walk a mile, go two with them-
SAME THING! They were allowed to make you only go one mile, more than that would render them a law breaker.....

THUS MARTIN LUTHER LED A PEACEFUL REVOLT BASED ON THESE TRUTHS!

Now, I grew up to believe that as a christian we were to give give give to people that were taking,

let them beat us more in the name of LOVE

and do DOUBLE the labor of our task masters!


HMMMMM!

LOVE<
jane

THANK YOU Jane for posting this. Bottom line - it places responsibility for abuse on the abusers and allows the victim to make it CLEAR.

Got me to thinking - we typically apply our culture as the "context" of the Bible, and we end up getting it very wrong. We desperately need to realign the "stories" of the Bible with the culture that they were written in, or we have little hope of understanding vitally important stuff.

[Jerry]

Forgive me, Jerry; I am not sure I understand your last post. So you mean that I will learn to forgive in time, or that time will heal?

Eleanor
(((((((((Eleanor)))))))))) Neither,,,,,,,,,,I mean that in time,they will ask,and you will forgive them ;)
Love Jerry

[Eleanor]

Maybe, Jerry,

but I am not holding my breath on that one. I cried for days after I found out about my sister's feelings about me as a PERSON and another child of God- not just her theological disagreements with me. Those other people? Pooh on them-they can call me a green martian but it doesn't make it true. I thought deep down my sister and I were sisters of the heart- not just biological sisters- if that makes any sense. Just don't think there is any going back.Guess I just miss the illusion.
Anyway, I hope you are right